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Creative Corner => New Mechanics and Subsystems => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft => Topic started by: sirpercival on December 05, 2016, 07:37:30 AM

Title: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on December 05, 2016, 07:37:30 AM
Go ahead and post comments here :)
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on December 05, 2016, 08:35:45 AM
OK so, the ACFs are in progress, and feats are getting trimmed down in the process. I'll be writing more feats in general - that's the main way to beef up fighters. If anyone wants to add more adaptations for existing PrCs, or at the very least wants to start compiling a list of published PrCs that need adaptation, please feel free to do so! (hint hint)
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nanshork on December 05, 2016, 10:42:10 AM
What's new and could use a perusal?

Edit: Anything besides the ACF's that is.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: FireInTheSky on December 05, 2016, 10:34:53 PM
Share Training power has a misplaced tag in the Augment.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on December 06, 2016, 10:35:12 AM
What's new and could use a perusal?

Edit: Anything besides the ACF's that is.
Hm. I think... the new version of the Blademaster prc? And the published PrC stuff in the same thread.

Share Training power has a misplaced tag in the Augment.
Whoops, thank you.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nanshork on December 06, 2016, 11:57:39 AM
Furious Gladiator seems effectively worse than normal Rage until level 17 when it becomes amazing.

I see no issue with the other ACFs.

I actually really like the adaptation for Bear Warrior.

All the other adaptations look nice.

On the Blademaster, Duty is heavier than a mountain is mettle and evasion combined which sets of alarm bells but at that level I don't think it's a legitimate problem.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on December 06, 2016, 02:10:54 PM
Furious Gladiator seems effectively worse than normal Rage until level 17 when it becomes amazing.
This came about from me wondering how to integrate Bladecraft & barbarian without continuing to make barb way better than fighter. The answer I came up with was: stealth-nerf rage with some minor Bladecraft bonuses. I'm not super happy with the result. Any ideas?

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I see no issue with the other ACFs.

I actually really like the adaptation for Bear Warrior.
Awesome! Except that I've now removed Raging Bladeform in favor of that barb ACF. So... yeah.

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All the other adaptations look nice.
Rock on.

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On the Blademaster, Duty is heavier than a mountain is mettle and evasion combined which sets of alarm bells but at that level I don't think it's a legitimate problem.
That was my thought as well. It's a capstone on a 5-level prc, sure, but you still have to make your saves.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nanshork on December 06, 2016, 02:45:06 PM
I'll think about ways to improve Furious Gladiator.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on December 11, 2016, 10:52:03 AM
I'll think about ways to improve Furious Gladiator.
What if, for the Tireless Rage thing, instead of having it be automatic, you can make a Bladecraft check to have the round not count towards duration in place of retaining a tag? That should help with the huge jump in power at 17th level.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nanshork on December 11, 2016, 12:12:57 PM
I'll think about ways to improve Furious Gladiator.
What if, for the Tireless Rage thing, instead of having it be automatic, you can make a Bladecraft check to have the round not count towards duration in place of retaining a tag? That should help with the huge jump in power at 17th level.

That sounds good, but I'm still not sure if the rest of the ACF is good enough.  Sorry, this had fallen off my radar.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on December 12, 2016, 11:31:05 AM
Added more ACFs, removed more feats. I'm done removing feats - I have several more ACFs to write, and then I want to add a bunch more fighter-style feats.

I took out Furious Gladiator because I'm still not sold on it; here's the current text, for reference as we overhaul:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nanshork on December 12, 2016, 12:56:32 PM
ACFs
Animatrix of War looks fine except why would a Dread Necromancer want to be in the thick of things with it's horrible BAB?

Blade Dancer has some typos (see you dance/see you sing are used interchangeably). 

Deadly Hunter doesn't say Deadly Hunter in the spoiler.  As a side note, I like the idea of this replacing combat styles from a thematic standpoint.

Devious Assailant could get a little high with damage dice.  At 9th level it's 5d6 sneak attack vs 4d8 bladecraft which isn't bad.  But at 14th level you're talking 7d6 sneak attack vs 12d6 bladecraft dice (and it gets worse from there).

Devoted Soldier looks just fine.

Eremite looks fine.  However, it brings up some questions.  Does an off-hand unarmed attack count for the Rend tag?  There should probably be a "Bladecraft while unarmed" section.

Mobile Duelist brings up the same potential damage issues as Devious Assailant now that I'm thinking about it.



Furious Gladiator Discussion
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on December 12, 2016, 05:39:52 PM
ACFs
Animatrix of War looks fine except why would a Dread Necromancer want to be in the thick of things with it's horrible BAB?
  :sparta

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Blade Dancer has some typos (see you dance/see you sing are used interchangeably). 
Derp. Fixing.

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Deadly Hunter doesn't say Deadly Hunter in the spoiler.  As a side note, I like the idea of this replacing combat styles from a thematic standpoint.
Blah. Also, yay!

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Devious Assailant could get a little high with damage dice.  At 9th level it's 5d6 sneak attack vs 4d8 bladecraft which isn't bad.  But at 14th level you're talking 7d6 sneak attack vs 12d6 bladecraft dice (and it gets worse from there).
Ok, but I will remind you that a rogue doing this is doing it in melee. And in a Basic Form. It becomes more situational as you get higher in level.

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Devoted Soldier looks just fine.
You know it...  :smirk

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Eremite looks fine.  However, it brings up some questions.  Does an off-hand unarmed attack count for the Rend tag?  There should probably be a "Bladecraft while unarmed" section.
Uh.... yeah. OK I'll add that section.

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Mobile Duelist brings up the same potential damage issues as Devious Assailant now that I'm thinking about it.
Indeed. Though significantly less so, because it's just less damage.



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Furious Gladiator Discussion
Yes, I was aware of all that. The problem I have is that Barb is the best non-ToB pure melee class, and adding Bladecraft to the mix just powers it up, which is problematic.

Unless... what if I change it so that you CAN'T use techniques while raging? And so that this Fury becomes a side-grade because you're replacing better stat bonii with the ability to use techniques??
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nanshork on December 12, 2016, 05:59:45 PM
On Furious Gladiator, there are lots of alternate rages already.  Why not just make a whole new type of rage instead of trying to tone down normal rage?  Or base it off another type of rage.

Example: Base it off of Whirling Frenzy, replace the extra attack with the form switching.  Remove the Reflex bonus since you removed the Will bonus from normal rage.

New Comparison:
Level 1 Rage: +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will, -2 AC
Level 1 Furious Gladiator: +4 Str, +2 AC, enter form when raging

Level 11 Rage: +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will, -2 AC
Level 11 Furious Gladiator: +6 Str, +3 AC, enter form when raging

Level 17 Rage: +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will, -2 AC, no fatigue at end of rage
Level 17 Furious Gladiator: +6 Str, +3 AC, enter form when raging, make bladecraft checks to prolong rage

Level 20 Rage: +8 Str, +8 Con, +4 Will, -2 AC, no fatigue at end of rage
Level 20 Furious Gladiator: +8 Str, +4 AC, enter form when raging, make bladecraft checks to prolong rage



You could say that techniques and rage aren't compatible, but in that case be prepared to have a barbarian who knows techniques to be a rarity unless you make it a feat tax or wrap it into a prestige class or make it a higher level rage ability, etc.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on December 20, 2016, 11:51:03 PM
Added the rest of the ACFs. I'll be doing feats and special combat rules tomorrow.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nanshork on December 21, 2016, 04:29:10 PM
More ACFs

Analytical Mystic looks very good.

Captain looks better than normal Marshal.  This isn't a bad thing.  Also your list is broken.

Cunning Versatility looks fine.

Curse-Slayer looks better than normal Hexblade.  Again, not a bad thing.

Daimyo - Holy crap a samurai option that isn't godawful.

Fox is interesting.

Furious Gladiator - Aww, you used my example alernative.  That makes me happy.

Ithron has too much bolding!  Again, this one is actively interesting.

Soul Assassin looks fine.

Uhlan looks good but familiar.  Was this created to replace a feat?
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on December 21, 2016, 07:10:45 PM
More ACFs

Analytical Mystic looks very good.

Captain looks better than normal Marshal.  This isn't a bad thing.  Also your list is broken.
Whoops, fixed.

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Cunning Versatility looks fine.

Curse-Slayer looks better than normal Hexblade.  Again, not a bad thing.

Daimyo - Holy crap a samurai option that isn't godawful.
:D

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Fox is interesting.

Furious Gladiator - Aww, you used my example alernative.  That makes me happy.

Ithron has too much bolding!  Again, this one is actively interesting.
Derp, also fixed.

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Soul Assassin looks fine.

Uhlan looks good but familiar.  Was this created to replace a feat?
Most of it came from the Cavalier's Bladeform feat, yes.
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Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: FireInTheSky on December 21, 2016, 09:34:47 PM
Deadly Hunter also has too much bolding.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nanshork on July 05, 2017, 08:34:07 PM
Have you integrated whatever changes came from the temporary board back into this?
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on July 09, 2017, 12:41:40 AM
Have you integrated whatever changes came from the temporary board back into this?
Not yet - it was just a couple of edits for the techniques, right?

Added a new type of feat - [Style] feats. Only have the first four done right now, but the others will be up soon. Also, I really want a Bladecraft version of the Weapon Focus tree, but I haven't figured out how I want to do it yet. Any suggestions for both of those, or for the special combat rules (I have some notes involving mounted Bladecraft, but not the rest) would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Also added the Mystic Blade feat, which was long overdue. However, I'm having second thoughts, thinking that this maybe should fall under "Special Combat Rules" instead. Thoughts? Better language for clarifications?
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nanshork on July 09, 2017, 01:16:09 AM
I'm pretty sure it was just a couple of technique edits.

I don't have any style feat suggestions.  What do you want the Bladecraft Weapon Focus tree to do?

I think I'm okay with Mystic Blade being a feat.  It makes things that aren't actually weapons count as weapons, making it a feat tax makes sense from a logical perspective (if they don't count as weapons for anything else they don't count as weapons for Bladecraft automatically) and will probably make it easier for DMs to stomach because it isn't another thing that spellcasters can just be awesome at because reasons for no extra effort.


For the Special Rules, IMO unarmed just needs a section on TWF with unarmed strikes for the purposes of Bladecraft (because honestly I don't think there are any actual rules on the subject).  I'm not sure what you would do for Aerial, but for Aquatic you could steal from Pathfinder.

Pathfinder has a condition called "off-balance" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/wilderness/terrain/aquatic-terrain/).  Aquatic Adventures has the following rule in it: "Being prone
doesn’t mean much for a swimming creature, so instead, a successful trip against a swimming creature forces that creature to attempt a Swim check at a DC equal to the result of the combat maneuver check to trip; failing the Swim check causes the creature to become off-balance. Many aquatic creatures can’t be tripped or have a high Swim bonus and thus can always take 10, so this tactic isn’t always effective, but when it is, it can make dexterous foes much easier to hit. However, being off-balance doesn’t affect most of the target’s attack rolls, and the target can regain its balance simply by succeeding at a Swim check to move on its next turn as normal."

Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Garryl on July 09, 2017, 01:38:10 AM
Style feats already exist, so you might want to find another name. They were introduced in Complete Warrior and showed up in a few books afterwards. They give you a mediocre benefit for using a specific combination of weapons, armor, shields, etc. and usually require a bunch of feats as prerequisites. Some are actually okay, but most are kinda wasteful.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on July 09, 2017, 06:42:47 AM
I'm pretty sure it was just a couple of technique edits.
Sweet. Either way I'll get on this, it's super easy.

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I don't have any style feat suggestions.  What do you want the Bladecraft Weapon Focus tree to do?
The point of the normal WF tree is to give you bonuses for using (focusing on) a particular weapon. It's just that the bonuses are so, so terrible. So I'd like to do something like that, but make it actually interesting.

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I think I'm okay with Mystic Blade being a feat.  It makes things that aren't actually weapons count as weapons, making it a feat tax makes sense from a logical perspective (if they don't count as weapons for anything else they don't count as weapons for Bladecraft automatically) and will probably make it easier for DMs to stomach because it isn't another thing that spellcasters can just be awesome at because reasons for no extra effort.
OK, cool. Is it ok as written? Or does it need any clarification?

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For the Special Rules, IMO unarmed just needs a section on TWF with unarmed strikes for the purposes of Bladecraft (because honestly I don't think there are any actual rules on the subject).  I'm not sure what you would do for Aerial, but for Aquatic you could steal from Pathfinder.

Pathfinder has a condition called "off-balance" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/wilderness/terrain/aquatic-terrain/).  Aquatic Adventures has the following rule in it: "Being prone
doesn’t mean much for a swimming creature, so instead, a successful trip against a swimming creature forces that creature to attempt a Swim check at a DC equal to the result of the combat maneuver check to trip; failing the Swim check causes the creature to become off-balance. Many aquatic creatures can’t be tripped or have a high Swim bonus and thus can always take 10, so this tactic isn’t always effective, but when it is, it can make dexterous foes much easier to hit. However, being off-balance doesn’t affect most of the target’s attack rolls, and the target can regain its balance simply by succeeding at a Swim check to move on its next turn as normal."
Excellent, thank you for that source. I was actually most concerned about Aquatic.

Style feats already exist, so you might want to find another name. They were introduced in Complete Warrior and showed up in a few books afterwards. They give you a mediocre benefit for using a specific combination of weapons, armor, shields, etc. and usually require a bunch of feats as prerequisites. Some are actually okay, but most are kinda wasteful.
UGH I forgot about those. Stuff like Lightning Mace, right?

I really am not sure what else to call them. Blade Style feats? Adding Blade to everything is getting tedious.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Garryl on July 09, 2017, 09:46:15 AM
Style feats already exist, so you might want to find another name. They were introduced in Complete Warrior and showed up in a few books afterwards. They give you a mediocre benefit for using a specific combination of weapons, armor, shields, etc. and usually require a bunch of feats as prerequisites. Some are actually okay, but most are kinda wasteful.
UGH I forgot about those. Stuff like Lightning Mace, right?

I really am not sure what else to call them. Blade Style feats? Adding Blade to everything is getting tedious.

Why not make them Tactical feats? They already have the same format. Just give each of the three sub-effects a little name of its own and you're done.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on July 09, 2017, 11:49:39 AM
Style feats already exist, so you might want to find another name. They were introduced in Complete Warrior and showed up in a few books afterwards. They give you a mediocre benefit for using a specific combination of weapons, armor, shields, etc. and usually require a bunch of feats as prerequisites. Some are actually okay, but most are kinda wasteful.
UGH I forgot about those. Stuff like Lightning Mace, right?

I really am not sure what else to call them. Blade Style feats? Adding Blade to everything is getting tedious.

Why not make them Tactical feats? They already have the same format. Just give each of the three sub-effects a little name of its own and you're done.
What about the whole "you can't learn more than one of each complexity" part? Should I just throw that under "special" and specify the exclusions?
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Nanshork on July 09, 2017, 11:55:11 AM
Mystic Blade looks good as is IMO.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Garryl on July 09, 2017, 12:04:03 PM
What about the whole "you can't learn more than one of each complexity" part? Should I just throw that under "special" and specify the exclusions?

Why is that limit there in the first place? What purpose does it serve for the game balance or the bladecraft fantasy/concept?

Regardless, if you keep it, you should spell it out more explicitly. Something like "This feat is a Basic/Moderate/etc. bladecraft tactical feat. You cannot select it if you already have another bladecraft tactical feat of the same complexity." Mind you, if the limit stays, I'd rather it be something along the lines of being unable to use them simultaneously, rather than being barred from multiples entirely.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on July 09, 2017, 12:37:54 PM
What about the whole "you can't learn more than one of each complexity" part? Should I just throw that under "special" and specify the exclusions?

Why is that limit there in the first place? What purpose does it serve for the game balance or the bladecraft fantasy/concept?

Regardless, if you keep it, you should spell it out more explicitly. Something like "This feat is a Basic/Moderate/etc. bladecraft tactical feat. You cannot select it if you already have another bladecraft tactical feat of the same complexity." Mind you, if the limit stays, I'd rather it be something along the lines of being unable to use them simultaneously, rather than being barred from multiples entirely.
No worries, I'll remove that and just make them tactical feats.
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: sirpercival on July 14, 2017, 11:29:15 AM
Added Bracers of Storing to Bladecraft Items (in the BC Extras thread).
Title: Re: Discussion Thread
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 03, 2017, 01:23:16 AM
So, I have some ideas for some unusual interactions between subsystems upon Bladecraft. Mostly regarding having Bladecraft as a component of what other subsystems do.

In the case of spells, the spell could use a Bladecraft technique for a somatic component, allowing for that particular spell to be cast in the same action as that particular technique, and Silent Spell allows the spell to be used without the associated technique.

The second, obviously, is Maneuvers that require the use of Techniques as part of their use. The sword-swing of the Technique is the sword-swing of the Maneuver. This means careful selection of linked effects to make it not entirely broken, mind you. The idea would be a few Disciplines that draw from bundles of Styles for Techniques to stack Maneuvers on top of.

An example of a somatic Bladecraft spell is having a Vampiric "Strike" that deals 1d6, max 20d6, damage per CL, with the iconic temp HP equal to damage dealt, using a Technique like Black Lance's Last Strike(lower complexity implementation of the concept of backlash-by-counterattack, obviously), possibly with one of the Blood Style double-techniques so that the temp HP can be there before the backlash, as the somatic component. However, it's a 6th level spell(4th for Duskblades), which leaves it wildly underpowered for a spell of that level. But it functionally gives an extra Standard Action, of a particularly useful sort.

An example of a Bladecraft Discipline is using Maneuvers to specifically counter downsides for Techniques from many Styles that fit together as "risky" styles, like Black Lance's Last Strike being paired with a Maneuver that gives temp HP, delayed damage pool or other damage mitigation to be much more likely to survive the counterattack. The limits on use of Maneuvers make it so that it's not going to be spammed to cover weaknesses every time a Technique with a significant downside is used, unless you like burning rounds on Adaptive Style.

A more grounded idea is a set of Styles based on IRL airplane design philosophies. High-altitude bombers striking from unassailable positions, the SR-71 Blackbird's silly "outrun enemy attacks" spyplane strategy, the rushing impact of dive-bombers and frantic agile-yet-(relatively)-slow dogfighters make for the four "easy" idea options. I'd put the Blackbird-based one at Advanced because... Well, the idea is to never be hit because the enemy is never in range, always working to get close enough to hit. This is "move 15-20 ft. as an Immediate Action" territory. Not quite silly enough in mechanical implementation to warrant Master use, but not something you want to make casual use of.

...Is it inherently against the rules to make a Style that goes the whole way through? Because that'd give a significant amount of room to extend the existing Styles forward and backward. Extending Blood Style backwards to include much more basic Techniques that just give partially variable granted tags or minor improvements to other Techniques, like one extra Bladecraft die or giving a minor AC bonus/minor Moral penalty to the enemy.