Min/Max Boards

Creative Corner => Campaign Settings and World-Building => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => The Great Wheel: Saga of the Planes => Topic started by: sirpercival on October 18, 2012, 09:59:21 PM

Title: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 18, 2012, 09:59:21 PM

OK, so let's start it off with this:

The epic rules suck.  Most epic options are either useless or broken, and epic challenges (including the gods and other badass beasties) are poorly optimized and not at all representative of what they're supposed to be.

So, the idea I had is this: what if we redo all of it?  Make a campaign setting which actually allows for high level and epic play in an awesome context.  I love Planescape, and it has the basis for everything I want: powerful entities, dangerous locations, incredible flavor.  Let's write it up the way it should be written.

This is an ambitious project, and I hope people will help with it.  My plan is to use Libertad's Planar Revision Project as a springboard to write up consistent fluff for the high-level denizens of each plane, and construct a true campaign setting.  At the same time, we'll make changes to the non-epic mechanics to support a set of epic and deific mechanics that keep the idea of Epic play without the broken and useless.

I've already begun on the latter part (changes to non-epic mechanics), which I will post tomorrow, after some sleep.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Prime32 on October 19, 2012, 10:02:03 AM

Saving this here, with slight tweaks.

(click to show/hide)

Quote

Wild Companion (Su): At Xth level, when you cast summon nature's ally you may choose to change its duration to "Permanent (D)". You may have only one permanent summon from your highest available list in existence at a time, though you may split this allowance up into multiple creatures of lower levels; any creature can be traded for two creatures from one list lower (eg. if you could cast summon nature's ally IV, then you could have one creature from list IV, two creatures from list III, four creatures from list II, one creature from list III + two creatures from list II, etc.).

Wild Shape (Su): At Xth level, when you cast summon nature's ally you may choose to transform into the summoned creature. This reduces the range of the spell to Personal, and limits the number of summoned creatures to one. While the summoned creature exists, you are banished to a pocket demiplane from which you can give it orders and see through its senses (using your Spot/Search/Listen modifiers); you may not otherwise take any action except to dismiss the spell. Mind-affecting effects target your mind instead of the summoned creature's, and True Seeing displays your appearance superimposed over the creature's.
If the summoned creature is slain or dismissed then you appear in its space; you are not subject to any damage or negative conditions inflicted on the summoned creature (excepting mind-affecting effects, see above). Likewise, the effect ends if you are somehow removed from the demiplane created. If the summoned creature enters an Antimagic Field then you appear in its position as if it had been dismissed, but the effect resumes when you leave the field.
This ability may be combined with Wild Companion.

Nature's Guardian (Su): At Xth level, when you cast summon nature's ally in a natural location, you may extend the casting time to 24 hours to summon a Guardian version of the creature(s). Such a creature gains maximum hit points and a +4 bonus to all ability scores, but is dismissed if it leaves the site for more than 1 minute. In addition, this casting method increases the caster level of the spell used by 4.
The area within which the guardian can exist is a sphere with a radius of 10ft/caster level of the spell. You may not cast this spell in a location sacred to a deity, unless you are within one step of that deity's alignment and have done nothing to offend them (such as worshipping an opposing deity).
This ability may be combined with Wild Companion and/or Wild Shape.

(click to show/hide)

All creatures are attuned to a particular plane; this serves as a prerequisite for certain abilites (eg. "must be attuned to Celestia"), similar to a patron deity.
Material Plane residents use their deity's plane as their attuned plane, or may choose any plane if they do not worship a deity. Other creatures are attuned to their native plane.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 10:52:16 AM

The first thing that needs to be fixed is magic (and its derivatives).  High level non-epic wizards can already do pretty much anything, and break the game in numerous ways, which makes it extremely difficult to (a) work out epic magic in any useful way, and (b) have epic challenges that are anything other than ridiculous numbers.

The best and most thorough way to fix this would be to rebuild the magic system from the ground up, so that epic magic progression is a natural extension of the system.  However, at that point, it's not even D&D anymore, and this project is ambitious enough without writing an entire new game system.  So, I'm going for more superficial changes.  Most of the changes to non-epic mechanics I'll be making are an attempt to regress toward the mean, which I'm setting at around tier 3.  This means weakening the tier 1 classes, and improving tier 4/5/6 classes, to get everyone into tier 2-4.

I've made a list of the problematic types of spells which need to be altered, and the changes I'll be implementing to fix them, with the goal of un-breaking high-level spellcasting:

• Action generation & interruption - Spells which generate actions, like Time Stop & Celerity, will be limited in what types of activities you can use those actions for.  Spells which interrupt other actions (like Wings of Cover) will be specific in the type of effects they interrupt (no one has a problem with Feather Fall, for example).
  
• Polymorph spells - Use the PF Metamorphosis chain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis) instead, since it allows for modularity, power, and keeps the flavor of the spells without being uber haxxorz.
  
• Planar Ally/Binding/Calling - To call a creature, you must know its specific name (divination, knowledge, etc); no calling generic creatures.  Once you've called it, there's no compulsion of service -- you have to negotiate the terms, and the creature will always require you to complete a specific task, of the same magnitude of whatever it is you're asking it to do.
  
• Teleportation - There will be distance limitations, which can be bypassed with waypoints.  In addition, we'll be using this Plane Shift variant (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6622.0).
  
• Spells which break WBL - Magic items will be decoupled from mundane wealth, so no one really cares about these.
  
• "Choose your spell" effects - Wish, Limited Wish, Miracle, Reality Revision, Bend Reality are all removed.  There's really no way not to break the game by using these; they're plot devices, not spells.
  
• Shadowcrafting - As a subset of the above, this is no longer "choose your spell".  Instead, it has a modular set of possible effects.
  
• Divinations - Foretelling divinations grant you a series of omens (like tarot cards or zodiac signs) which grant you bonuses when the conditions of the omens are met.  Higher level = more omens.  Scrying requires stronger connections, and has distance limitations; you can't scry off-plane.  Scrying spell level determines the connection strength required and the distance limit.
  

Psionics are being fixed as well:

• Linked Power does not exist; in fact, most of Complete Psionic is out, as either crappy or broken.
  
• Action economy breakers - Just like for spells, these are limited to specific types of activities that the actions can be used for.
  
• Recharge - You can't regain pp that you've spent.
  

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 11:01:56 AM

Next, we have to make changes to classes.  The high-tier classes require the most work:

• All casters are spontaneous, but can prepare spells if they wish (for metamagic purposes).
• Wizard & sorcerer are replaced by a single full-casting arcane base class, the Mage.  Mage gains a familiar and chooses one of the following specializations:
  • 1) Warmage (blasting & bfc spells)
  • 2) Necromancer (undead & debuff spells)
  • 3) Beguiler (enchantment & illusion spells)
  • 4) Thaumaturge (transmutation & divination spells)
  • 5) Summoner (summoning & calling spells)
  • 6) Spellknight (buffs & abjuration spells)
  The Mage knows all spells on its list of the appropriate levels.  Then it gets class features a la the specialist variants, and bonus metamagic feats. To make the class feature exchange cleaner, I'm considering just making 6 classes instead of 1, but we'll see how it goes.
• Clerics only know spells from their domains (and know all spells of the appropriate levels from their domains).  They gain domains like Ardents gain mantles.  In addition to the domain powers, clerics can choose divine feats or archivist-style class features.  (Archivist and Favored Soul do not exist; Healers are redundant.)
• Druid spells are Primal instead of Divine, and have a significantly reduced spell list.  They get Drift (a la geomancer), genius loci abilities, and the abilities Prime32 posted above.
• Artificers don't get spells 2 levels early.  In addition, they pick one spell list at 1st level and 1 additional list every 5 levels after.  They can only craft items with spells from their lists.

For most of the low-tier classes, we can simply use homebrewed fixes or other exchanges:

• Fighter = Warblade (can take fighter-only feats at =level)
• Monk = Swordsage
• Ranger = Sublime Ranger [sirp]
• Rogue = Sublime Rogue [sirp]
• Paladin = Thaumurai [sirp]
• Samurai = Kensei of 5 rings [travellog]
• Barbarian = War-Frenzy [agita+veekie]
• Soulknife = Invoking Soulknife [garryl]
• Knight = Crusader
• Scout = Wardancer [sirp]

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 11:13:06 AM

Logistically, my plan is this:

• A thread for non-epic global mechanics changes and rewritten spells
• A thread full of class fixes (mostly the tier 1 changes above, along with links to homebrewed fixes for the low-tier stuff)
• A thread for the rewritten epic mechanics
• A thread for epic material (classes, feats, etc.)
• A thread for the rewritten deific mechanics
• One thread for each plane, containing fluff, plane-specific mechanics, and writeups of the important inhabitants.

Any issues with this?

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 11:21:10 AM

This is a truly ambitious but exciting undertaking... and I can't believe I'd never looked at the PF/DSP Metamorphosis fixes. Those are awesome! Very similar to my own homebrewed fixes (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=729.0), except I  made mine all castable on other people (I don't see the need for most powerful effects to be self-only).

I'll try to help out as I can, but my time is limited.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 11:26:58 AM

Oh yes, they can be used on others.  I meant the effects.

And I'm glad you're on board in some way!  Lol.  Maybe I can use your Mindscapes stuff for the plane of dreams?

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 11:28:50 AM

Quote from: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 11:26:58 AM

Maybe I can use your Mindscapes stuff for the plane of dreams?

Absolutely. :D

For your mage/specialist casters, Robbypants' Witch (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1511.0) might fit. I think you'll be better off making separate classes with "themes" rather than trying to make one modular class. The beguiler, dread necro, and other such classes give you good examples.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 11:40:49 AM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 11:28:50 AM

Quote from: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 11:26:58 AM

Maybe I can use your Mindscapes stuff for the plane of dreams?

Absolutely. :D

For your mage/specialist casters, Robbypants' Witch (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1511.0) might fit. I think you'll be better off making separate classes with "themes" rather than trying to make one modular class. The beguiler, dread necro, and other such classes give you good examples.

I was thinking of  just taking Beguiler & DN as-is, and then writing the rest.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Garryl on October 19, 2012, 11:56:26 AM

Wow, those PF Metamorphosis powers are nice.

I don't really see what the Plane Shift tweak really does. Sure, planar travel isn't as easy, but it only makes more distant planes cost more castings. It doesn't really limit things, other than making them take longer.

I also don't have as much of a problem with the variable spell effect spells (Shadow Conjuration, etc.). I'd be quite happy with Wish and Miracle and friends if they dumped the "make shit up" clauses, limiting them to just existing lower level spell effects and maybe a couple of thematically appropriate extra options (like crafting magic items you can create without the time, or a mass teleport, or whatever). A lot of things that people think of can be done with existing spells anyways, so the meat of the effect stays close to what's expected. Plus, I like the idea of Swiss Army Knife spells at a higher cost than their more specific cousins (ie: spend a higher level slot for more versatility instead of more power).

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 12:02:51 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on October 18, 2012, 09:59:21 PM

So, the idea I had is this: what if we redo all of it?  Make a campaign setting which actually allows for high level and epic play in an awesome context.  I love Planescape, and it has the basis for everything I want: powerful entities, dangerous locations, incredible flavor.  Let's write it up the way it should be written.

This is an ambitious project, and I hope people will help with it.  My plan is to use Libertad's Planar Revision Project as a springboard to write up consistent fluff for the high-level denizens of each plane, and construct a true campaign setting. 

-Claim to want powerful entities, dangerous locations, incredible flavor.
-Starts by picking up a revision that focuses mostly in removing powerful entities(mighty ruler of Sigil? What mighty ruler of Sigil?), dangerous locations(giant yugoloth city-mecha? What giant yugoloth city-mecha?) and dulls the flavor all around to "every  outsider is actually neutral (do whatever is profitable for me now) except they have slightly diferent skin colors/dress codes and world views".

Does not compute to me. If you want the first count me in. If you want the second then I'll just show myself out.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 12:04:15 PM

Quote from: Garryl on October 19, 2012, 11:56:26 AM

I don't really see what the Plane Shift tweak really does. Sure, planar travel isn't as easy, but it only makes more distant planes cost more castings. It doesn't really limit things, other than making them take longer.

That was basically the idea: to make it slightly more difficult (and hopefully interesting) to travel the planes, especially at the earliest levels where that ability comes online. You could still do "scry and die"  tactics against creatures from other planes, but if they are distant, you're going to have to burn through more spell slots to get there. It also makes it possible to have planes which you cannot reach via Plane Shift at all, which is not currently possible without DM fiat.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 12:15:24 PM

At the very least Miracle should cost XP to replicate a spell just like Wish does.

The Plane Shift tweak is more for flavor than reducing PS's power.

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 12:02:51 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on October 18, 2012, 09:59:21 PM

So, the idea I had is this: what if we redo all of it?  Make a campaign setting which actually allows for high level and epic play in an awesome context.  I love Planescape, and it has the basis for everything I want: powerful entities, dangerous locations, incredible flavor.  Let's write it up the way it should be written.

This is an ambitious project, and I hope people will help with it.  My plan is to use Libertad's Planar Revision Project as a springboard to write up consistent fluff for the high-level denizens of each plane, and construct a true campaign setting. 

-Claim to want powerful entities, dangerous locations, incredible flavor.
-Starts by picking up a revision that focuses mostly in removing powerful entities(mighty ruler of Sigil? What mighty ruler of Sigil?), dangerous locations(giant yugoloth city-mecha? What giant yugoloth city-mecha?) and dulls the flavor all around to "every  outsider is actually neutral (do whatever is profitable for me now) except they have slightly diferent skin colors/dress codes and world views".

Does not compute to me. If you want the first count me in. If you want the second then I'll just show myself out.

As I said, I was going to use the PRP as a springboard.  Of course we'll be including the powerful entities, as you pointed out it doesn't make sense otherwise.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 12:23:39 PM

Quote

Spells which break WBL - Magic items will be decoupled from mundane wealth, so no one really cares about these.

This is not a trivial matter, mechanically or fluff-wise. Do you have an existing system in mind for this? And flavor explanation?

I remember seeing a system that basically borrowed from Incarnum a bit, in that magic items were powered by your own soul/chakra, which limited the number you could use at once as well as how powerful the effects produced from items "wielded" by you could be.

Excerpt from my  interpretation (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=729.msg69089#msg69089) of this:

(click to show/hide)

The rationale for both the 8-item attunement limit and the scaling bonuses is that most magic items are powered by your own chakras/lifeforce/soul, and each soul can only power eight at once. Very minor items, such as potions and wands, do not draw enough of this power to matter, but more powerful ones do. Likewise, more powerful souls can boost the magic items attuned to them more than weaker souls can.

A consequence of this is that creatures without souls cannot normally use magic items. So no equipping your mindless undead army with all of your extra bling. For our purposes, we'll say that anything that Mindless is also considered Soul-less.

And I think the current Knowledge skill rules make no sense at all. Here is my homebrewed version:

Quote from: phaedrusxy on April 30, 2012, 10:38:22 PM

• The knowledge skill works as described in the PHB, except when identifying creatures we're going to use the following modifications:
  
  
  (click to show/hide)

  1) Assign the creature a rarity. This is how frequently the creature can be expected to be encountered in the region where it normally lives. The DC is 10 for very common, 15 for somewhat common, 20 for occasionally encountered, 25 for rarely encountered, and 30 (or more) for very rarely encountered.
  
  2) Modify this DC based on how familiar the person making the check is with this creature's home region, based on where they are from, and what they've encountered or studied in the past. This modifier can be 0 (from the same region, or have at least studied that region), +5 (the creature is from an "adjacent" region to the identifier's home region), or +10 (the creature and identifier are from regions very "remote" from each other). If a creature is particularly "famous" or "legendary", you might also modify the DC by -5 (local fame) or -10 (world wide, or even multiversal, fame).
  
  3) Lower the DC based on how dangerous the creature being identified is. Divide the creature's CR by 2, and subtract this from the DC. This cannot lower the DC by more than 10, regardless of the CR of the creature being identified. I think this modifier should be based on an adult version of the creature, in the case of creatures whose CRs dramatically vary with age (like dragons).
  
  
  Then we make the check, and measure relative success.
  
  If you beat the DC by:
  0-4 You know the creature's type, what plane it is from, and anything that is a signature ability for that creature (breathe weapon for dragons, Feed for barghests, etc). You also know if its CR is above, below, or about the same as your character level. If the CRs are different by 4 or more for the base creature, the DM should tell you that, also. If the creature is a humanoid or something that commonly takes levels in classes to gain more power, you should also know this. Of course, you won't know whether this creature has class levels.
  5 to 9 You know if it has a subtype and any other resistances or immunities.
  10+ You know what other abilities the creature has (basically you know everything in the basic monster's stat block).
  15+ You know about this specific creature (if applicable). For example, you might recognize "Bob the wizard-slaying dragon", who is known to make extensive use of the Antimagic Field spell, and has trained in ways to prevent other creatures from fleeing from him (has Improved Trip and the Snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch) feat).
  
  Retry: You may make one retry after you've seen a creature use a special ability of some kind. Being bathed in acid by a black dragon's breathe has a way of jogging your memory. ;)
  
  
  
  Examples:
  
  1) Bob the farmer sees a big, giant, red lizard fly overhead (a red dragon). The DC is 15 (Dragons are occasionally encountered in Bob's world. He's from Dragonlance.) - 7 (CR 15/2: adult red dragons are really freakin' scary, and are things that tales are retold of endlessly), with a -5 to the DC for familiarity (dragons play significant roles in the history of Dragonlance, and as such are famous worldwide, however Bob doesn't live in a region that any call home), for a total DC of 8. So Bob can take 10 and identify the thing as a red dragon, unless he is in combat with it (or more likely running away in terror from it's frightful presence). He can't tell you anything useful about how to fight a dragon, though.
  
  2) Fizban the fabulous, the local hedge wizard, also sees the dragon. He is level 5, and has 8 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana, and he's studied about dragons. His Int mod is +4, so he has a +12 to ID the dragon, and no familiarity penalty. He can take 10 (beating the DC by 10) and tell you that red dragons are creatures of fire, that they have a terrible breathe weapon composed of it, but that they are also especially vulnerable to cold-based attacks.
  
  3) His master, Archmage Yoda, would say "Oh yeah, that's old Scar. He's an arrogant bastard who loves to mix things up in melee, but has a pitiful selection of spells. He does know "Resist Elements", though. So you probably shouldn't use a Cone of Cold against him.

[/list]

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Garryl on October 19, 2012, 12:51:43 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 12:15:24 PM

At the very least Miracle should cost XP to replicate a spell just like Wish does.

Perhaps yes, although I think the current 5000xp cost is too prohibitive. It's a full encounter's worth of xp (before dividing it among the party).

Perhaps something like the following:

(click to show/hide)

Miracle/Wish
Universal
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP; See text
Casting Time: 1 standard action; See text
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level); See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: Instantaneous; See text
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless); See text
SR: Yes; See text

Miracle and Wish are actually the same spell, much like Geas and Quest. Divine spellcasters commonly refer to it as Miracle, while arcane spellcasters commonly refer to it as Wish.

Miracle/Wish fundamentally alters the fabric of the universe. While specific spells may offer more raw power in their focused field, Miracle/Wish can produce nearly any imaginable effect. A Miracle/Wish can do any of the following:

• Duplicate a castable spell of 8th level or lower. You must know the spell and be able to cast it (have it prepared, have an appropriate unused spell slot, etc.).
• Duplicate a known, uncastable spell of 7th level or lower. You must know the spell. This usage costs 50 xp per spell level.
• Duplicate an unknown spell of 6th level or lower. You need not know the spell, but it must be on your spell list and may not be a prohibited spell (such as being from a banned school or having an alignment descriptor opposed to your deity's alignment). This usage costs 100 xp per spell level.
• Duplicate any spell of 5th level or lower. This can be any spell on any spell list, even if it is prohibited to you. This usage costs 200 xp per spell level.
• Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity. Such spells specifically call out Miracle/Wish as a method of undoing their effects. This usage targets a specific creature or spell aura.
  
• Transport travelers. A Miracle/Wish can lift you and up to one creature per caster level within range and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. This is not a teleportation effect. This usage costs 500 xp.
• Undo misfortune. A Miracle/Wish can undo a single recent event. The spell forces a reroll of any roll made since the beginning of your last turn. Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. The spell targets the creature (or object) that made the roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

A duplicated spell functions in all ways as the duplicated spell (including range, area, saving throws, casting time, and components), but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. Metamagic and other spell modifications can be applied to Wish/Miracle, but only affect the duplicated spell if they could be applied to the duplicated spell.

XP Cost
Certain uses of Miracle/Wish have XP costs, as described above. A Miracle/Wish that duplicates a spell with an existing XP cost uses the sum of both costs.

Edit: Phaedrus, your Knowledge example is wrong. The DC is 3, not 8 (15 - 7 - 5). So Bob actually knows a bit about the dragon's resistances and subtypes just on rote memory, and has a 15% chance of knowing about Scar personally. Fizban will know that reliably (taking 10), and Yoda should know who was invited to Scar's 21st birthday.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 12:55:54 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 12:15:24 PM

As I said, I was going to use the PRP as a springboard.  Of course we'll be including the powerful entities, as you pointed out it doesn't make sense otherwise.

Why not use the official fluff as a springboard? The ideas for powerful entities/locations/stuff are there, not anywhere in PRP I can see.

Also +1 to how do you intend to "fix" WBL, since that's a can of worms all by itself.

The best I've seen so far is that the  WBL table values is actually your limit of magic stuff you can use at once. You need to attune to items before using them and that takes time. Consumables  count towards your attunement limits even after you've expended them, and you recover slowly from that (so you can take a few potions per day no problem, but try to spam them and you won't be able to use any magic gear for weeks or even months as you recover)

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 01:15:12 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 12:55:54 PM

Also +1 to how do you intend to "fix" WBL, since that's a can of worms all by itself.

The best I've seen so far is that the  WBL table values is actually your limit of magic stuff you can use at once. You need to attune to items before using them and that takes time. Consumables  count towards your attunement limits even after you've expended them, and you recover slowly from that (so you can take a few potions per day no problem, but try to spam them and you won't be able to use any magic gear for weeks or even months as you recover)

Hmm... I think I like where this is going.

What if instead of needing to be attuned, and taking up a fraction of your "attunement pool" (i.e. WBL), consumables instead actually lowered your attunement pool by an amount equal to 10x their price when used? And you only recovered this "attunement pool" slowly, like 10% of your WBL per day?

So if you wanted to use a bunch of consumable items, you could, but you'd have to:

1) Leave some of your WBL unequipped to "make room" for them.
2) Your WBL would be lowered after using them by an amount equal to 10x their price (or appropriate fraction thereof for charged items).
3) If your "attunement pool" dropped below the value of your attuned items, you'd have to choose item(s) to become unattuned.

Thoughts? Problems with this?


Edit: Let's look at some examples, to see if my numbers are off.

Example 1: At 20th level, using a 9th level scroll would lower your attunement pool by 38,250 gp, which is about 5% of your total WBL. So if you went crazy and spammed 10 Gate scrolls before heading into a battle, you'd cut the value of attuned items you could use by half, and it would take 5 days for it to recover fully. So this wouldn't be a sustainable method of combat, but you could use it for the occasional "epic" battle.

Example 2: At 5th level, a mage has a wand of Fireball. Each charge costs him 2250 off his WBL to use, which is a pretty sizeable chunk of his 9000 gp total. Hmm... that might be a bit too high of a cost for him. Of course, really he shouldn't have such an item to start with (the cost is over 11,000 gp, against his 9,000 gp WBL). So maybe that's not really a problem.

Example 3: Let's instead give the 5th level Mage above a wand of Grease. 750/50*10 = 150 gp per charge off his WBL, so less than 2%. If he used it once per encounter for 5 encounters, his WBL would be lowered by 10% and would recover the next day. So this would be sustainable for him, which seems about right.

Quote from: Garryl on October 19, 2012, 12:51:43 PM

Phaedrus, your Knowledge example is wrong. The DC is 3, not 8 (15 - 7 - 5). So Bob actually knows a bit about the dragon's resistances and subtypes just on rote memory, and has a 15% chance of knowing about Scar personally. Fizban will know that reliably (taking 10), and Yoda should know who was invited to Scar's 21st birthday.

Ah crap. I forgot to actually include the -5 for familiarity... Well, I think the system as written is still OK, and definitely an improvement on the current one, which makes no sense. People remember things based on how scary they are, and how common they are. It makes no sense at all for the DC to increase as things get scarier (more hit dice). Farmers definitely know more about wolves than they do about earthworms.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 01:27:39 PM

Yeah, 5th level characters shouldn't be using 3rd level wands just yet.

The problem I see with your version is that it kinda drives players for a toolbox mindset, where you hoard lots of diferent consumables and then pick the one you need at the time for trivial problem solving. You still can't spam them, but versatility on that level is power by itself (always have the right cure/divination/utility/silver bullet at hand). Instead of just a wand of grease, you have dozens of wands of 1st level spells and pull the one you need for the situation.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 01:32:04 PM

There are more pieces that I'd like to throw in here for discussion.

1) How do we make things like Poison, Curses, and Diseases relevant at high/epic level?
2) How do we make things like Skills relevant at high/epic level?

I wonder whether we should add another category of spells that need fixing to the list: party role replacers.  This would include things like Divine Power, Knock, Divine Insight, etc.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 01:34:45 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 01:27:39 PM

Yeah, 5th level characters shouldn't be using 3rd level wands just yet.

The problem I see with your version is that it kinda drives players for a toolbox mindset, where you hoard lots of diferent consumables and then pick the one you need at the time for trivial problem solving. You still can't spam them, but versatility on that level is power by itself (always have the right cure/divination/utility/silver bullet at hand). Instead of just a wand of grease, you have dozens of wands of 1st level spells and pull the one you need for the situation.

True... maybe they should still need to be attuned AND lower your WBL pool when actually consumed...

Quote from: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 01:32:04 PM

There are more pieces that I'd like to throw in here for discussion.

1) How do we make things like Poison, Curses, and Diseases relevant at high/epic level?
2) How do we make things like Skills relevant at high/epic level?

I wonder whether we should add another category of spells that need fixing to the list: party role replacers.  This would include things like Divine Power, Knock, Divine Insight, etc.

1) Make Epic versions of them, which require Epic solutions. :P
2) This is more difficult... and really just shows how crappy the current skill system is overall, and how problematic it is that there is a "magical" solution that basically replaces/trumps almost all of the mundane skills.

So I guess a start for #2 would be invent more (and better) Epic usages of skills which can do really extraordinary things (like walk on air with Balance, etc), and get rid of/modify the spells that make skills obsolete (Knock, etc). Perhaps a negative consequence of the first part is that you might be able to reproduce these Epic skill usages with a non-epic character...

This again gets into another system problem: there are too many damned bonus types, making it very possible to kick yourself off the random number generator entirely. If we're rewriting things, we should definitely address this from the beginning: no bullshit bonuses. There should only be 2 or 3 bonus types, period, and none of them stack with themselves.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 01:36:50 PM

In terms of fixing WBL, when I wrote that I immediately thought of your houserules, phae. ;)  However, I think it can get messy at high levels with consumables, as we're discovering in this work-through.

The fundamental question is, should consumables and permanent items have different tracks, or compete for the same track?  The former has the advantage of ease of design, since we don't have to come up with one method which manages both versions; the latter has the advantage of being more balanced.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 01:42:09 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 12:55:54 PM

Why not use the official fluff as a springboard? The ideas for powerful entities/locations/stuff are there, not anywhere in PRP I can see.

The official fluff comes nowhere near the amount of the original Planescape material, and is more of a tacked-on addition than a setting in and of itself, which is what I'm going for.  Granted, the PRP stuff is nowhere near complete as well, but we're going to be rewriting stuff anyway. 

I think we're on the same page, but talking at cross purposes, so let me try and clarify.  My thought was essentially that this project would add all the high-level fluff and opponents, using inspiration and stuff from Planescape and other official stuff, not that the PRP fluff is the be-all end-all of the planes.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 01:44:01 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 01:32:04 PM

There are more pieces that I'd like to throw in here for discussion.

1) How do we make things like Poison, Curses, and Diseases relevant at high/epic level?
2) How do we make things like Skills relevant at high/epic level?

1)Remove immunities. Replace them with high save bonus against that kind of effect and "don't auto-fail on a natural 1 against this". Some diseases are so virulent they can affect even undeads and constructs.
2)What I've been doing so far is making new effects based on your skill ranks. However if you ask me, skills by themselves should not be special. Skills backed up by the right feats/class abilities should be special. A rogue should be awesome at hiding-the rogue should not be awesome just because they get hide as a class skill, since that means everybody else with hide as a class skill suddenly stealths as well as the rogue.

Quote from: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 01:32:04 PM

I wonder whether we should add another category of spells that need fixing to the list: party role replacers.  This would include things like Divine Power, Knock, Divine Insight, etc.

Kill them with fire and call it a day. It's not like spellcasters don't have a bazillion other spells to play with.

Quote from: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 01:34:45 PM

True... maybe they should still need to be attuned AND lower your WBL pool when actually consumed...

Agreed.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 01:46:51 PM

I'd rather not just go through and axe spells if I can help it...

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Garryl on October 19, 2012, 01:50:12 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 01:32:04 PM

There are more pieces that I'd like to throw in here for discussion.

1) How do we make things like Poison, Curses, and Diseases relevant at high/epic level?

I had some higher level diseases and Contagion spells on the old boards. I'll root around and see if I still have them on my computer. They're in the old 1001 ideas thread, regardless.

Quote

2) How do we make things like Skills relevant at high/epic level?

I wonder whether we should add another category of spells that need fixing to the list: party role replacers.  This would include things like Divine Power, Knock, Divine Insight, etc.

Opening doors is not a party role. At least, not a dedicated party role. Its something everyone can do, whether by casting spells to open the door, casting spells to bypass the door, using lockpicks to pick the door, using picks to pick the wall, or using boots to bust the door.

On a related note, I wouldn't worry too hard about skills. It would be nice to make them relevant at all levels, but unlike class features, anyone can do skills (just some better than others). Sort of like how anyone can do attack rolls (just some better than others).

Now, that said, I once went through the PHB, pulled out most of the spells that completely replace skills, and wrote up some quick, fairly standardized replacements that had similar results but using actual skill rules. Again, it should be in the old 1001 ideas thread on BG.

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 01:44:01 PM

2)What I've been doing so far is making new effects based on your skill ranks. However if you ask me, skills by themselves should not be special. Skills backed up by the right feats/class abilities should be special. A rogue should be awesome at hiding-the rogue should not be awesome just because they get hide as a class skill, since that means everybody else with hide as a class skill suddenly stealths as well as the rogue.

Seconded.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 01:52:34 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 01:44:01 PM

1)Remove immunities. Replace them with high save bonus against that kind of effect and "don't auto-fail on a natural 1 against this". Some diseases are so virulent they can affect even undeads and constructs.

I don't really like this... Perhaps change any immunity granted by an effect not based on type to be just a huge bonus and no auto-fail on 1s, but I think type-based immunities make sense. If there is a disease so virulent it can affect undead, then it should be a specific thing (named ghouls-bane or something), not a general rule making all undead potentially vulnerable to all diseases...

However, this gets into yet another problem I have with the core rules, which may seem somewhat contradictory to what I wrote above, but hear me out...

The way some types work is just stupid. Why do ghouls and vampires not actually need to feed (all undead do not need to eat)? Why are vampires immune to crits, and all mind-affecting things (they have minds, and a physiology. they still need their heart)? Likewise, not all constructs are mindless (and hence shouldn't all be immune to all Mind-Affecting), nor should all of them be immune to crits (break a critical gear, or kill its "brain", and it should die). As much as I know Oslecamo hates a lot of Frank and K's stuff, I do have to push for their alternate subtypes for Undead (Dark-minded and Unliving), which remove a lot of the type-based immunities. I'd also like to see subtypes like these used/developed for constructs, plants, and vermin where it makes sense (i.e. intelligent constructs shouldn't be immune to all Mind-Affecting things).

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 02:00:24 PM

I agree about making more subtypes for this stuff, though I have to say I don't like the way Frank & K did it either.  The way they assigned the abilities makes no sense to me.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 02:02:40 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 01:52:34 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 01:44:01 PM

1)Remove immunities. Replace them with high save bonus against that kind of effect and "don't auto-fail on a natural 1 against this". Some diseases are so virulent they can affect even undeads and constructs.

I don't really like this... Perhaps change any immunity granted by an effect not based on type to be just a huge bonus and no auto-fail on 1s, but I think type-based immunities make sense. If there is a disease so virulent it can affect undead, then it should be a specific thing (named ghouls-bane or something), not a general rule making all undead potentially vulnerable to all diseases...

It wouldn't really make all undeads vulnerable to everything, since most diseases have fixed DCs and those are pretty low.

Quote from: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 01:52:34 PM

However, this gets into yet another problem I have with the core rules, which may seem somewhat contradictory to what I wrote above, but hear me out...

The way some types work is just stupid. Why do ghouls and vampires not actually need to feed (all undead do not need to eat)?

That's why they're evil. They crave fresh flesh/blood, but don't actually need it to survive (as pointed out in Libris Mortis). It just gives them kicks.

Quote from: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 01:52:34 PM

Why are vampires immune to crits, and all mind-affecting things (they have minds, and a physiology. they still need their heart)? Likewise, not all constructs are mindless (and hence shouldn't all be immune to all Mind-Affecting), nor should all of them be immune to crits (break a critical gear, or kill its "brain", and it should die). As much as I know Oslecamo hates a lot of Frank and K's stuff, I do have to push for their alternate subtypes for Undead (Dark-minded and Unliving), which remove a lot of the type-based immunities. I'd also like to see subtypes like these used/developed for constructs, plants, and vermin where it makes sense (i.e. intelligent constructs shouldn't be immune to all Mind-Affecting things).

I'm against this, because then we notice it we'll have a bazillion diferent subtypes, and then we have to deal with all the effects that care about subtypes, and it's a whole load of paperwork that could've been evaded with just making vampires actual living beings (can you really call yourself an undead when you've been stripped out of pretty much all actual undead traits?) that gain a bunch of standard feats like Iron Will for free if you still insist they totally have a complete phisiology.

I for one still hate with a burning passion 4e's "we auto-die when hit by a natural 20(headshot!), which means the living cannot be headshoted" zombies.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Garryl on October 19, 2012, 02:08:33 PM

Here we are, found my diseases and skill tweaks.

Diseases

(click to show/hide)

Enhanced Diseases:
   Diseases in D&D are kind of tame. Sure, at the low levels they can be dangerous, but so is everything at low level. By 5th level diseases are little more than a bump in the road, with the 3rd level spell Remove Disease handling just about everything easily. The diseases themselves are kind of simple and similar. They all require a couple of saving throws to remove and most of them are just bits of ability damage with nothing special. Contagion, the one spell that causes disease in others, isn't even that amazing. As a 3rd level spell it can cause a bit of ability damage to a single target, but is competing against other lovelies like Shivering Touch and Ray of Stupidity that can do more or do it at range at lower levels for Wizards, and a variety of useful buffs for Clerics and Druids. I'm not going to rewrite it and replace it, but I do want to give some options to those who want to spread a little microscopic love.



New Diseases:

Disease                Infection   DC   Incubation   Damage
Blood Bursting         Injury      16   1d2 days     1d4 Con and 2d12 hp and blood splash
Coward's Death         Inhaled     17   1 day        1d6 Dex and 1d2 Dex drain and shaken
Enervating End         Contact     18   1d4 days     1 drain of each ability score and 1 negative level
Hatefrenzy             Injury      18   1 day        1d6 Cha and frenzy
Psychic Degeneration   Inhaled     15   1 day        1d4 Int, 1d4 Wis, and 1d4 Cha and spell loss

Blood Bursting
   Whenever the victim of Blood Bursting is damaged by a slashing or piercing weapon, all other creatures within 10 feet are splashed with the victim's blood. Such creatures must make a saving throw the next time they are damaged by a slashing or piercing weapon or contract the disease too. Infected blood loses its potency 1 minute after being exposed to air.

Coward's Death
   A creature that fails its saving throw against Coward's Death (including the initial saving throw to catch the disease) is shaken for 24 hours. This condition stacks with other fear effects, but not with itself or other instances of Coward's Death.

Enervating End
   Creatures that fail their saving throw against Enervating End's damage gain one negative level and suffer from one point of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma drain, each. The save DC to remove the negative level is the same as the disease's save DC. Creatures that die while infected with Enervating End rise as a Devourer during the next night. The Devourer has energy trapped within it equal to the number of levels or hit dice it possessed in life, including any lost due to the negative levels inflicted by this disease, to a maximum of 15 levels.

Hatefrenzy
   Creatures suffering damage from Hatefrenzy lose the ability to distinguish between friend and foe. See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030421a for more details.

Psychic Degeneration
   Psychic Degeneration causes creatures that take damage from it to lose knowledge of their highest level spell or power known whenever they are dealt damage by it. Spellcasters also lose their highest level spell slot and manifesters permanently lose power points equal to the cost to manifest the power that they lost (excluding augmentation, metapsionics, and other effects that would modify the power's cost). Lost spells and powers return at a rate of 1 per day once the disease is cured, starting with the lowest level spell or power lost. Lost spell slots return similarly, and lost power points return along with the power they were lost with.



New Spells:

Enhanced Contagion
Necromancy [Evil]
Clr 5, Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 6
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

This spell functions as Contagion except as noted above. The caster can also choose from a wider variety of diseases, listed below, in addition to those allowed by the Contagion spell.

Disease                Infection   DC   Incubation   Damage
Blood Bursting         Injury      16   1d2 days     1d4 Con and 2d12 hp and blood splash
Coward's Death         Inhaled     17   1 day        1d6 Dex and 1d2 Dex drain and shaken
Demon Fever            Injury      18   1 day        1d6 Con, failed saves may cause Con drain
Psychic Degeneration   Inhaled     15   1 day        1d4 Int, 1d4 Wis, and 1d4 Cha and spell loss

   In addition, the caster can select one of the following options for every 6 caster levels, to a maximum of 3 options at caster level 18. The disease caused by this spell is more potent than normal in the chosen manners.

Contagious: The disease spreads to any creature that passes within 5 feet of a diseased creature. Creatures that make their saving throw against contracting the Contagious disease this way are not at risk of infection from the same disease bearer for 24 hours in this way, although they can still catch the disease through other means.
   This ability can be selected multiple times. Each time it is selected beyond the first, the radius of infection increases by 5 feet and the save DC to avoid contracting the disease through this proximity increases by 2. This does not affect the save DC of the disease for other purposes.

Debilitating: The disease is more dangerous than most. When rolling for damage with this disease, roll twice and take the higher result for each damage, ability damage, or ability drain type

Sickening: The disease is particularly disruptive. A victim of the disease must make a Fortitude save every round against the disease's save DC or be sickened for that round.

Tenacious: The disease is protected against magic that would cure it and is difficult to be rid of even by normal means. This disease requires one additional successful saving throws to be rid of, and requires the successful saving throws to be consecutive. Spells and effects that would remove this disease, such as the Cure Disease spell, require the spellcaster to make a caster level check against a DC equal to the disease's current save DC, or a similar check. Failure indicates that the ability has no effect. Success does not remove the disease, but only causes the recipient to be treated as though he had succeeded on two additional consecutive saving throws against the disease.

Virulent: The save DC of this disease (other than the initial saving throw as part of this spell) increases by 2, to a maximum of this spell's save DC. Whenever this disease causes ability damage, the victim must make an additional Fortitude saving throw or take 1d2 points of Constitution damage above and beyond any damage already caused by this disease.
   This ability can be selected multiple times. Each time it is selected beyond the first, the save DC of the disease increases by 2.

Wasting: This disease causes slow but inevitable death. On a failed saving throw against this disease, the victim suffers half of all ability damage taken as ability drain and suffers an additional 1 point of Constitution drain. Even on a successful save, the victim still takes 1 point of ability damage to each ability score that this disease would normally damage.



Mass Contagion
Necromancy [Evil]
Clr 4, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft. level)
Targets: Up to 1 creature/caster level within 30 ft. of each other

This spell functions as Contagion except as noted above.



Vicious Contagion
Necromancy [Evil]
Clr 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 8
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

This spell functions as Contagion except as noted above. The caster can also choose from a wider variety of diseases, listed below, in addition to those allowed by the Contagion spell. The caster can also select disease options from the Enhanced Contagion spell.

Disease                Infection   DC   Incubation   Damage
Enervating End         Contact     18   1d4 days     1 drain of each ability score and 1 negative level
Hatefrenzy             Injury      18   1 day        1d6 Cha and frenzy
Mummy Rot              Contact     20   1 day        1d6 Con and 1d6 Cha, curse-like disease

   In addition, the caster can select one of the following options for every 4 caster levels, to a maximum of 6 options at caster level 24. The disease caused by this spell is more potent than normal in the chosen manners. The caster can choose abilities from the Enhanced Contagion list as well.

Nauseating: The disease is particularly disruptive. A victim of the disease must make a Fortitude save every round against the disease's save DC or be nauseated for that round.

Retributive: Whenever a creature tries to cure this disease using magical means, that creature is immediately infected with no saving throw, even if the effect failed to cure the disease. Creatures that are immune to disease can be affected this way, although they get a saving throw.

Vile: The disease is enhanced with the power of pure evil. All ability damage that it does is considered ability drain and all hit point damage that it does is considered Vile damage.

Skills

(click to show/hide)

I originally posted this in the "Grievances With the Skill System" thread. I have since expanded it significantly.


A few times in there, I mention using CL instead of ranks. Ideally, this should mean that you've got a CL equal to your level, so you're still 3 points behind someone who has invested max ranks into the skill. Since you can still use your actual ranks, the spells will give a basic competency for the unskilled, or an improved effect for those that already know what they are doing. The idea is that magic shouldn't let you completely obsolete training, and there should be a real benefit to having both. It still needs some tweaking, since people who have invested max skill points into a cross-class skill should still get something for their efforts, and CL boosters can throw this off the charts, but I think the idea is sound.

How would the following work? Instead of giving ranks equal to CL, is gives effective ranks equal to CL/2 (rounded down, max half your character level) and an insight/enhancement/whatever bonus equal to CL/2 (rounded up, max +10). That way, anyone who put full points in, even cross-class, gets a bonus over those who slacked off (even if it's only 1-2 points for a cross-class skiller), someone who has no training can do the basic tricks effectively (but for a limited time, usually only one check before the higher level spells), and someone who is well trained still gets a significant bonus for devoting the spell to this use. Scratch that, it goes against what I've been doing already. Never mind.

(click to show/hide)

Appraise: needs something else. (Identify is nice, but is it enough?)
Appraise - Identify a magical item: DC 15 + CL to identify an item's properties. Can take 10, but no retries until you gain another rank. Max ranks and a masterwork item or +2 Int makes this an automatic success for level-appropriate items. Takes 10 minutes.

Balance: needs something!

Bluff - Hide vitality: When a creature attempts to determine your approximate health with the Triage use of the Heal skill, you can make a Bluff check with a DC equal to the normal DC of the Triage check. If you succeed, and your Bluff check is greater than the result of the Heal check, you may treat your current hit points as any amount (even above your normal maximum hit points or below -10) for the purpose of the information the creature learns.

Climb - Safe climbing: Take a -5 penalty to retain Dex to AC. Or maybe it's automatic at 5 ranks, like with Balance.
Climb - Hand-less hold: Climb check at DC + 10 lets you use both hands for your turn. You still need one free hand at the end of your turn to hold onto the wall. If on a rope or similar object, you can dangle upside down (treat as prone), holding on with your legs, instead of using a hand to hold on.

Concentration: The various uses have their DCs scale with twice the spell's level instead of just the spell's level.

Decipher Script: Detecting forged documents and the like is opposed by Decipher Script, not Forgery. There are several new things from Forgery that this opposes, too.
Decipher Script - Detect written magical trap: Can be used like Search to find written magical traps, even if you don't have Trapfinding.

Forgery: Detecting forged documents and the like is opposed by Decipher Script, not Forgery.
Forgery - Fudge text: You can alter an existing text so that it appears correct but actually is not. This takes 1 minute per page. This otherwise follows the normal uses of Forgery. A character who beats your Forgery check by 10 or more can determine the original text and can correct it.
Forgery - Negate written magical trap: Can be used like Disable Device to disable written magical traps, even if you don't have Trapfinding.
Forgery - Sabotage magical writing: You can use the Fudge text option of Forgery to sabotage magical writings, such as scrolls and spellbooks. A sabotaged scroll will always fail. If the scroll's user fails a subsequent Spellcraft check against a DC equal to your Forgery check result, it will also cause a mishap when used. Sabotaging a spell in a spellbook simply causes any attempts to memorize that spell from that entry to fail, wasting the spell slot that would be used to prepare it. A spellcaster can make a Spellcraft check against a DC equal to the result of your Forgery check to notice this each time he or she memorizes a sabotaged spell. On a failure, the spell will cause a mishap (as per a scroll's mishap) when cast. Regardless, the spell and its spell slot can still be sacrificed without risk for other effects, such as to spontaneously cast another spell, and the spell slot can be emptied without risk when the spellcaster next prepares spells. Sabotaging a scroll or a spell in a spellbook has a DC equal to that of the Spellcraft check to decipher it without a Read Magic spell (DC 20 + 2x spell level).

Heal - Triage: You can determine approximately what percentage of a creature's hit points it has remaining as a move action (this must be a creature that you can see). You can sense dying (less than 0% hp), wounded (0% to 25%), injured (25% to 50%), winded (50% to 75%), healthy (75% to 100%), or brimming with energy (more than 100% hp).The DC is 15 + subject's HD. You can do this as a free action once per round at a -20 penalty. If you fail this check by 4 or less, you learn inaccurate information, as though the subject is one tier healthier, one tier more injured, or has its actual amount of hit points (equal likelihood for each). If you fail by 5 or more, you learn nothing. If you succeed by at least 10, you learn the subject's exact hit point total, including the breakdown of hit points and temporary hit points.
Heal - Improved first aid (trained only): As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you can heal a recently injured creature. The creature must have been damaged within 1 round per rank of Heal you possess, and you cannot restore more hit points to a creature than it has taken within that duration minus the amount of hit points it has healed since then. Only living creatures are affected by this use of the Heal skill. A DC 20 check heals 1d8 points of damage, and deals a like amount of nonlethal damage to the subject. For every 3 points by which you increase the check's DC, the amount healed (and the nonlethal damage dealt) increases by 1d8. For every point by which you exceed the check DC, the amount of nonlethal damage dealt to the subject is reduced by 1. Unlike spells and magical powers, this use of the heal skill does not cure nonlethal damage.

Spellcraft: The various uses have their DCs scale with twice the spell's level instead of just the spell's level.

Survival - Resist spell damage: DC 20 to gain energy resistance 5 against a single damage source as an immediate action. Resistance increases by 1 for every point by which you beat the DC.
Survival - Track across or under water: DC 25 for calm water, DC 30 for rough water
Survival - Track through the air: DC 30 for calm air, DC 35 for high winds
Survival - Track a teleporting creature: DC +5 to notice, DC +15 to determine where on the same plane, or if it went to another plane, DC +20 to determine which plane it went to and where it arrived there.

Swim: Needs something! Or are these enough?
Swim - Fight normally: You can fight normally underwater if you make a Swim check against the normal DC +10. This allows you to fight as though with the Freedom of Movement line for one round (despite the fact that Freedom of Movement doesn't do that any more). You can attempt this once per round as a free action.
Swim - Hold breath efficiently: You can take standard and full-round actions while holding your breath without decreasing the time you can hold your breath. To do so, you must make a DC 25 Swim check.

Use Rope: needs something!


Spells:

Alarm: A successful Hide check and a successful Move Silently check upon entering the warded area prevent the alarm from triggering. The DC is 10 + CL + primary casting stat. The alarm is still triggered if either of the checks fail. (To do: Check the rules on taking 10 for Hide/Move Silently under these conditions. If you can take 10, the DC could be upped to 15 + CL + stat. That's an auto success for max ranks + masterwork tool + equal stat mods + equal level when taking 10.)
Alter Self: When used to disguise yourself, functions as disguise self (see below), but isn't an illusion so there's no Will save.
Arcane Lock: You can still pick the lock, but the DC is increased by CL (max +10).
Arcane Mark: Can be found and removed as a magic trap with the Decipher Script and Forgery skills.
Arcane Sight: Does not automatically see auras on hidden creatures or objects. Instead, gives a check (Spot or Search, as appropriate) to notice them, with ranks = CL.
Comprehend Languages: Obsoletes part of Speak Language and most if not all of Decipher Script. Fix how?
Deathwatch: Allows you to make Heal (triage) checks to view all creatures within a 30 ft. cone instead of just one creature you can see (although you can still use that option, too). If you succeed on the check, you can also determine which (if any) such creatures are undead and/or nonliving. Ranks = CL for this purpose. Oh, and no more Evil tag.
Detect Secret Doors: Obsoletes a part of Search. Give it the ranks = CL treatment and a free Search check every round for secret doors?
Disguise Self: Can disguise self in the spell's cast time (1 standard action) instead of the usual 1d3x10 minutes, grants a +2 bonus as per a masterwork kit, and lets you use CL instead of ranks. However, the disguise is a glamer, so a successful Will save allows viewers to see through it. Also, the disguise only lasts as long as the spell does.
Fabricate: Does not necessarily complete the Crafting project. A single casting only causes one week's worth of work.
Faerie Fire: While the outlined creatures shed light as candles, that's still only shadowy illumination, still enough to hide in.
Find Traps: Could leave as is. Alternatively, leave it exactly the same but give ranks = CL instead of the insight bonus.
Freedom of Movement: May make an Escape Artist check as a free action 1/round while under its effects. May use CL instead of ranks. Also allows for ranks = CL for Swim checks and gives you an additional +10 enhancement bonus on Swim (fight normally) checks.
Glibness: You can take 10 on Bluff checks (even when threatened), and you may use CL instead of ranks. Still provides protection against magical countermeasures.
Glitterdust: Rather than a massive -40 to Hide, just prevents the Hide bonuses from invisibility and maybe gives a -CL (max -10) penalty to Hide checks otherwise.
Guards and Wards: A Survival check (DC 15 + CL + casting stat) negates the minor confusion effect for a single time through an intersection or side passage.
Hide From Undead: Just grants invisibility and silence with respect to undead, but still prevents Scent from working.
Identify: Grants an Appraise check to identify an item. Can be used to retry a failed check. Standard action cast time. May use CL instead of ranks.
Illusory Script: Just to clarify this can be found and disabled like any other magic trap.
Invisibility: Renamed to Lesser Invisibility. No relation to skills, I just wanted to mark that down somewhere. Existing skill interaction is a function of the invisible condition, which may need to be tweaked so as to not give too much of a boost to Hide, nor to obsolete it.
Invisibility Sphere: Renamed to Lesser Invisibility Sphere. See the Invisibility spell.
Jump: Ranks = CL instead of the massive bonus to Jump checks. Might also allow taking 10, getting full benefit from standing jumps, or something.
Knock: Grants an Open Lock/Disable Device check at range as a standard action. May use CL instead of ranks.
Levitate: Obsoletes Climb. Let it just let you climb in mid-air without needing an actual wall to climb on? Also, give it the usual ranks = CL treatment.
Mage's Faithful Hound: Hound is invisible, and has a Hide modifier of CL + your casting stat besides that. The hound has Scent and while it can see invisible creatures, it only has Spot and Listen modifiers of CL + your casting stat + 5, although it can always take 10.
Mage's Magnificent Mansion: The door is locked with an Arcane Lock. It has an Open Lock DC of 20 + CL + casting stat, plus another 10 for the Arcane Lock. It has a break DC of 20 + casting stat, plus another 10 for the Arcane Lock. As an invisible Medium object, it has a Hide modifier of +30 (and a final check result of 40).
Mage's Private Sanctum: Spot checks let you see inside 5', plus another 5' for every 5 by which you beat the DC (DC 15 + CL + casting stat). Sounds can still escape from inside, as per a Silence spell.
(Nystul's) Magic Aura: Just noting that the Appraise changes are relevant here. Not a problem since it doesn't obsolete anything. Might want to let some things bypass the altered aura thing, though, at least when you set it to nonmagical.
Magic Mouth: Nonmagical darkness may not stop the trigger, but creatures hiding in said darkness still can. The spell has Listen and Spot modifiers equal to your CL + your casting stat.
Make Whole: Probably not worth changing, but if it was, it would only repair one week's worth of an appropriate Craft check's repairs on the item, and have ranks = CL.
Mark of Justice: Can be found and disabled with Decipher Script/Forgery as if it was a magical trap. A creature cannot do so on a Mark of Justice affecting himself.
Minor/Major/True Creation: Just to clarify that poisons, regardless of their source and type, need a Craft check.
Pass Without Trace: DC to track you is at +5, or +10 if you try to hide your trail and move at half speed.
Phantom Trap: Any Search check reveals the trap. Any Search check to find a magical trap that beats the DC by 5 or more reveals it to be a false trap (use the normal magical trap DC formula for this).
Polymorph: Subject to the changes outlined in Alter Self with respect to Disguise.
Programmed Image: The spell has Listen and Spot modifiers equal to your CL + your casting stat + 5 to detect things according to its trigger condition.
Secret Page: Just to clarify this can be found and disabled like any other magic trap. Any attempt to disable it that succeeds by 10 or more (as normal for understanding a trap and finding a bypass) reveals the command word to switch the texts.
Seeming: As the (modified) Disguise Self.
Sepia Snake Sigil: Just to clarify this can be found and disabled like any other magic trap.
Shatter: Doesn't automatically break things. Instead, allows a break check against affected objects, with a modifier equal to your casting stat + your CL.
Shapechange: When impersonating an individual, functions as per the (modified) Alter Self
Silence: Imposes the silenced and deafened conditions on the area. Silenced is like invisibility for sound. The spell still prevents spells with verbal components, though.
Sleet Storm: Spot checks let you see inside 5', plus another 5' for every 5 by which you beat the DC (DC 15 + CL + casting stat).
Spider Climb: Obsolete Climb. Let it allow you to take 10 on Climb checks, remove the -5 penalty for accelerated climbing and safe climbing (see above). Ranks = CL.
Spike Growth: Can be disabled with the Survival skill, or with the Disable Device skill at +5 DC. Each such success disables one 20 ft. square.
Stone Shape: Requires a Craft check (stonework works for everything, other Craft skills can be used if they can be used normally to make similar objects). Ranks = CL and you get an additional +5 bonus. Still doesn't allow fine detail (thus no masterwork or other special options) and moving parts still have a 30% chance to fail. Most simpler things shouldn't even need rolling.
Tongues: Obsoletes Speak Language. Fix how?
Tree Shape: A Search check (DC 20 + CL + casting stat) reveals you to be a tree.
True Seeing: No changes. I just want to note that this spell only deals with other spells, which I like.
Veil: When impersonating an individual, functions as per the (modified) Disguise Self.
Wall of Thorns: Can also be moved through with Escape Artist checks, in addition to Strength checks. The DC is 5 higher for Escape Artist checks.
Water Breathing: May obsolete future changes to Swim (but doesn't do so now). Just marking it down in case of such an eventuality.
Wood Shape: Requires a Craft check (stonework works for everything, other Craft skills can be used if they can be used normally to make similar objects). Ranks = CL and you get an additional +5 bonus. Still doesn't allow fine detail (thus no masterwork or other special options) and moving parts still have a 30% chance to fail. Most simpler things shouldn't even need rolling.

Illusions in general: If used to hide an object or terrain feature, said object or terrain can be found with a Search check against DC 15 + CL + casting stat. This is in addition to any disbelief saving throws that may occur due to interacting with the illusion while searching it.


Conditions:

Blind: Extremely skilled spotters can react to light even through non-visual senses, such as the feel of light on their skin. Instead of failing all Spot checks (and other checks that rely on vision), a blind creature only suffers a -20 penalty.
Deaf: Extremely skilled listeners can still feel sound and interpret its vibrations through their body, if not their ears. Particularly skilled individuals may be able to understand conversations even without normal hearing, simply through feeling. Instead of failing all Listen checks, a deaf creature only suffers a -20 penalty.
Invisible: An invisible creature can hide as though it had a number of ranks in the Hide skill equal to its level (maximum 10), or its actual ranks, whichever is greater. In addition, it gains a +10 bonus to Hide checks. If the creature takes a full-round action to hold still, it gains an additional +10 bonus. (It can still perform other actions, such as taking a 5-foot step.) Inanimate objects are treated as having 10 ranks in Hide and constantly holding still and taking 10 for this purpose (for a total of 40). They may also gain bonuses or penalties to their Hide checks based on their size. Even if it is not intentionally doing so, an invisible creature cannot be seen, as though it was hidden with a Hide check result at least equal to its Hide modifier (even if it's actual Hide check result would be less than that for whatever reason).
Silenced: New condition. A silent creature can move as though it had a number of ranks in the Move Silently skill equal to its level (maximum 10), or its actual ranks, whichever is greater. In addition, it gains a +10 bonus to Move Silently checks. (It can still perform other actions, such as taking a 5-foot step.) If the creature takes a full-round action to hold still, it gains an additional +10 bonus. Inanimate objects are treated as having 10 ranks in Move Silently and constantly holding still and taking 10 for this purpose (for a total of 40). Even if it is not intentionally doing so, an invisible creature cannot be heard, as though it was sneaking with a Move Silently check result at least equal to its Move Silently modifier (even if it's actual Move Silently check result would be less than that for whatever reason).


Descriptors:

Audial: For things that require being heard. Replaces the stupid rule about effects that are both sonic and mind-affecting being prevented by creatures that can't hear them. Now that's the case for Audial effects. Basically, Audial is to differentiate between Sonic (the energy type) and sonic (using sound) effects.


Other:

Blindsense and Blindsight: Sound-based versions of this ability (those that fail if the creature is deafened) also require a successful Listen check against creatures moving silently. These abilities grant a +8 racial bonus on Listen checks with respect to things within range of the Blindsense or Blindsight. Sound-based Blindsight (but not Blindsense) also allows a creature to take 10 on Listen checks (even with respect to things out of range).
Tremorsense: A sneaking creature that is taking a full-round action to hold still cannot be detected with Tremorsense even if it moves unless the detecting creature succeeds on a Listen check or a modified level check (adding its Wisdom modifier) against the sneaking creature's Move Silently check.

Design thoughts and stuff and junk and whatever

(click to show/hide)

Let me see if I can get my thoughts straight on what skills and spells should do. Spells should never obsolete a skill. At best, a spell should do a little less than what a trained person can do with the skill, but usually faster or in a slightly special way. Spells should enhance the abilities of those who are actually trained, so a trained spellcaster gets serious boosts (if only temporarily). Really, spells should enhance skills, rather than replacing them.

Skilled Spellcaster > Skills alone ~ Spells alone > Unskilled

... but a well-designed skillmonkey build should be far and away better than spells alone, and should be around where a skilled spellcaster is, while also having relevant class features and stuff to be relevant elsewhere. You know, Tier 3 stuff with a strong focus on skills. Nothing game breaking, but filled with useful and worthwhile options. Ideally, a spellcaster focusing on skill spells should work alright as Tier 3, too, for the same reason.

Edit: Just finished going through all the spells in the SRD. The numbers and a few effects still need tweaking, but this is a good place to start.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 02:40:58 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 02:02:40 PM

I'm against this, because then we notice it we'll have a bazillion diferent subtypes, and then we have to deal with all the effects that care about subtypes, and it's a whole load of paperwork that could've been evaded with just making vampires actual living beings

We really only need two, I think: versions of Dark-Minded and Unliving that can be applied to anything, and which basically just make them not immune to Mind Affecting, and vulnerable to crits (and maybe tweak a few other things). Making up two subtypes is a lot easier than rewriting every monster that is screwed up because of the type rule blanket immunities that make no sense.

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 02:02:40 PM

It wouldn't really make all undeads vulnerable to everything, since most diseases have fixed DCs and those are pretty low.

It would make them vulnerable to anything they don't pass with a 1 on their saving throw, which is a lot given their sucky Fortitude saves. Any bonus given to compensate for this would have to be quite large, like +15 or something.

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 02:02:40 PM

That's why they're evil. They crave fresh flesh/blood, but don't actually need it to survive (as pointed out in Libris Mortis). It just gives them kicks.

And I hate that. That's not what all the stories about them say. The rules just flat-out contradict all the fiction, which sucks. Those Libris Mortis rules were badly written patch jobs to cover it up. We can do better (at least a bit).

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 02:52:04 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 02:40:58 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 02:02:40 PM

I'm against this, because then we notice it we'll have a bazillion diferent subtypes, and then we have to deal with all the effects that care about subtypes, and it's a whole load of paperwork that could've been evaded with just making vampires actual living beings

We really only need two, I think: versions of Dark-Minded and Unliving that can be applied to anything, and which basically just make them not immune to Mind Affecting, and vulnerable to crits (and maybe tweak a few other things). Making up two subtypes is a lot easier than rewriting every monster that is screwed up because of the type rule blanket immunities that make no sense.

Every monster? Vampire is a single monster. And as demonstrated by Alucard from the Hellsing manga, they've been known to have all the blanket immunities indeed.

Quote from: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 02:40:58 PM

It would make them vulnerable to anything they don't pass with a 1 on their saving throw, which is a lot given their sucky Fortitude saves. Any bonus given to compensate for this would have to be quite large, like +15 or something.

So be it.

Quote from: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 02:40:58 PM

And I hate that. That's not what all the stories about them say. The rules just flat-out contradict all the fiction, which sucks.

Last time I checked, pretty much every fiction with ghouls/vampires has them go over massive periods of time whitout anything to "eat" and that doesn't stop them from jumping upon the part of heroes and messing up their day.

Really, what was the last time you heard of a vampire/ghoul starving to death? Because one of the basis of undead apocalypses is that those things don't die naturally and even if they consumed most of the world population, they're coming for more. Those zombie ghoul hordes don't have anything more to eat, yet they force the heroes to hole in until they find a way out or get eaten. Ghouls/vampires have never been defeated by starvation.

Heck, in the marvel zombies parallel universe the story ends with the undead heroes actually learning to control their hunger.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 03:08:20 PM

What if immunity granted you, not only a large bonus to saves, but also a flat failure chance (like 50% or something)?

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 03:11:53 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 02:52:04 PM

Really, what was the last time you heard of a vampire/ghoul starving to death?

The vampires in Anne Rice's books do go into a state of torpor if they don't eat, but yes you have a point... I don't remember any of them ever starving to death, in any story... although the threat did seem to exist. They just always managed to find something to eat, what with their being supernatural monsters and all. :P I do think that they are driven insane in some stories if they are deprived of their "food", though.

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 02:52:04 PM

Every monster? Vampire is a single monster.

As far as the Mind-Affecting immunity, that's not just a single monster. There are lots of creatures in D&D which have minds, but which are somehow inexplicably immune to all things that would affect their minds, just due to their type. I do not buy all the justifications for why this is (alien mindset, etc). Is the mind of a once-human lich really more alien than that of a mindflayer? Hell no. And yet the first is somehow immune to all mind-influencing effects, while the latter is perfectly vulnerable to them.

Quote from: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 03:08:20 PM

What if immunity granted you, not only a large bonus to saves, but also a flat failure chance (like 50% or something)?

I don't think that any creature with a mind should even have a bonus to Mind-Affecting effects, unless it is specifically part of their write-up somehow.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Prime32 on October 19, 2012, 03:15:28 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 02:40:58 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 02:02:40 PM

I'm against this, because then we notice it we'll have a bazillion diferent subtypes, and then we have to deal with all the effects that care about subtypes, and it's a whole load of paperwork that could've been evaded with just making vampires actual living beings

We really only need two, I think: versions of Dark-Minded and Unliving that can be applied to anything, and which basically just make them not immune to Mind Affecting, and vulnerable to crits (and maybe tweak a few other things). Making up two subtypes is a lot easier than rewriting every monster that is screwed up because of the type rule blanket immunities that make no sense.

Wouldn't it be easier to add subtypes that grant immunities? That way the name of the subtype could explain where the immunity comes from. Most Oozes should have the type Aberration (amorphous, mindless) or something.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 03:17:48 PM

Quote from: Prime32 on October 19, 2012, 03:15:28 PM

Quote from: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 02:40:58 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 02:02:40 PM

I'm against this, because then we notice it we'll have a bazillion diferent subtypes, and then we have to deal with all the effects that care about subtypes, and it's a whole load of paperwork that could've been evaded with just making vampires actual living beings

We really only need two, I think: versions of Dark-Minded and Unliving that can be applied to anything, and which basically just make them not immune to Mind Affecting, and vulnerable to crits (and maybe tweak a few other things). Making up two subtypes is a lot easier than rewriting every monster that is screwed up because of the type rule blanket immunities that make no sense.

Wouldn't it be easier to add subtypes that grant immunities? That way the name of the subtype could explain where the immunity comes from. Most Oozes should have the type Aberration (amorphous, mindless) or something.

Hmm... You'd have to go and rewrite the creature types (to remove immunities, etc), but yes this could work, and is a better alternative to adding subtypes which remove them.

So remove the Mind-Affecting immunity parts of the construct, vermin, and undead types, then create a Mindless subtype, and say it applies to any creature which does not have an Int score?





Edit: Totally unrelated awesome idea I had for how to get floating islands/castles/etc which seems to fit thematically with what you're going for here ("epic" stuff) (from here (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51080)):   

Quote

Have them be the tops of mountains/buttes that actually mostly exist in another plane (the Ethereal?). The "floating" parts are just what happens to exist on the Prime. They could even move relative to the Prime if their primary plane moves relative to the Prime, but their motion would be pretty much immutable. Trying to stop one would be as difficult as trying to move a "normal" mountain.

This would let you have "floating" castles and stuff, but not rocks that you could craft into flying suits of armor or use as ships.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 05:02:13 PM

The other way to have floating things is to make them superconductors.  Then they keep the same height in the magnetic field that they had when they began superconducting.  They would dip and rise with fluctuations in the field, and could be moved relatively easily laterally.

BTW I just saw your edit about too many bonus types.  While I agree, I'm afraid of scope creep beyond the monumental task we've already set ourselves...

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 19, 2012, 08:02:56 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on October 19, 2012, 05:02:13 PM

The other way to have floating things is to make them superconductors.  Then they keep the same height in the magnetic field that they had when they began superconducting.  They would dip and rise with fluctuations in the field, and could be moved relatively easily laterally.

I heard a catgirl scream somewhere in the distance...

Quote

BTW I just saw your edit about too many bonus types.  While I agree, I'm afraid of scope creep beyond the monumental task we've already set ourselves...

Bah, why? Just make something that overwrites everything that grants a bonus.

Rules text: There are only 3 bonus types: Enhancement, Morale(?), and Racial (or whatever). If something says it is a type other than one of those, convert it to Enhancement.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on October 21, 2012, 12:00:56 AM

Or untyped...

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Prime32 on November 28, 2012, 06:27:43 PM

(click to show/hide)

Class Skills
The Monk's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....
Skill Points at 1st Level: (x + int)x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: x + int

Hit Dice: dx

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Unarmed Damage	Speed Boost
1st	+1	+2	+2	+2	Fighting style, Masterwork body, Stunning Fist, Unarmed strike	1d3	+5ft
2nd	+2	+3	+3	+3	Evasion, Slow fall	1d4	+10ft
3rd	+3	+3	+3	+3	Inner power, Still mind	1d6	+15ft
4th	+4	+4	+4	+4	Planar essence	1d8	+20ft
5th	+5	+4	+4	+4	Purity of body, Zen strike	1d10	+25ft
6th	+6/+1	+5	+5	+5	Fighting style	2d6	+30ft
7th	+7/+2	+5	+5	+5	Diamond body, Flight	2d8	+35ft
8th	+8/+3	+6	+6	+6	Planar essence	2d10	+40ft
9th	+9/+4	+6	+6	+6	Abundant step	3d8	+45ft
10th	+10/+5	+7	+7	+7	Diamond Soul, Perfect self	4d8	+50ft

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A place to put the different proficiencies.

Unarmed Strike (Ex): A monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, or Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) if he already possesses Improved Unarmed Strike. In addition, the base damage of the monk's unarmed strike increases as they gain levels.

Masterwork Body (Ex): A monk's skin and unarmed strike are considered masterwork armor and weapons respectively, allowing them to be enchanted as magic items. His skin grants a base AC bonus equal to his Wis modifier, but has no Maximum Dexterity modifier, Armor Check Penalty or Arcane Spell Failure chance, and is not considered to be armor for abilities which do not function while wearing armor.

Speed Boost (Ex): While unarmored and not carrying a heavy load, a monk gains an insight bonus to his speed in all movement modes equal to +5ft per class level.

Fighting Style (Ex): At 1st level a monk learns another way of using their unarmed strike. At 6th level he learns a second such style, which may be combined with the first.

(click to show/hide)

• Decisive Strike: The monk may treat his unarmed strike as a two-handed weapon whenever convenient, allowing him to apply 1.5 times his Str modifier to damage rolls. Whenever he could make a full attack, he may instead make a single unarmed attack dealing +50% damage, +100% damage for every attack he could make after the first (eg. if the monk would be entitled to three attacks as part of a full attack, he may instead make a single attack that deals 3.5x normal damage).
  
• Flurry of Blows: The monk may apply his Dexterity modifier to unarmed attack rolls in place of his Strength modifier. Whenever he would be entitled to one or more attacks he can make an additional unarmed strike at his highest attack bonus, but all attacks made as part of that action suffer a -2 penalty. (this ability cannot be stacked with itself).
  
• Ki Blast: The monk may treat his unarmed attacks as ranged attacks with a range increment of 60ft (or their existing range increment increases by +60ft, if they already possess one somehow). They are still treated as melee attacks whenever it is more beneficial, meaning he may apply his Strength modifier to attack rolls and does not provoke attacks of opportunity for using them in a threatened square.
  
• Weapon Master: The monk may treat any weapon he wields as an unarmed strike for the purposes of his class features. His weapon's base damage is not changed, but he deals additional damage equal to his unarmed strike's base damage.

Stunning Fist: A monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level when a monk succeeds on a Reflex save against an effect that deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion functions only while the monk wears light or no armor, and does not function while he is helpless.

Slow Fall (Ex): At 2nd level a monk may choose to slow his fall as if he were under a nonmagical feather fall effect. This ability does not function while the monk is helpless.

Inner Power (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk may choose to meditate in order to grant himself powers similar to magic items. This functions in all ways as if the monk had purchased or crafted an item normally (and takes as long as this would normally take in your campaign), with the gp costs being spent on special incenses and meditative tools. This ability cannot replicate consumable items.
Unlike normal items, an Inner Power is part of the monk's body and cannot be separated from him. He may only "remove" such an item by spending one hour to discharge ki into the shape of a gem of equivalent value, which can then be sold as normal. As an immediate action the monk may suppress any number of his Inner Powers or resume their normal functions; while suppressed he gains no benefits from them, but they possess no magic auras.

Still Mind (Ex): At 3rd level a monk gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects and on checks made to hide from magical detection.

Planar Essence (Su): At 4th level a monk begins tapping into the energies of the planes, gaining one of the following abilities. At 8th level he may choose a second such ability. When an ability modifies his Stunning Fist, he may choose not to gain its benefits if he wishes.

(click to show/hide)

• Acid: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +1d6 damage, and inflict acid damage rather than their normal damage type. You gain acid resistance equal to half your character level (rounded down).
  
• Chaos: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +2d6 damage to lawful creatures, half damage to chaotic creatures, and are treated as chaotic-aligned for overcoming damage reduction. You gain DR/law equal to one-third your character level (rounded down).
  
• Cold: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +1d6 damage, and inflict cold damage rather than their normal damage type. You gain cold resistance equal to half your character level (rounded down).
  
• Electricity: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +1d6 damage, and inflict electricity damage rather than their normal damage type. You gain electricity resistance equal to half your character level (rounded down).
  
• Evil: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +2d6 damage to good creatures, half damage to evil creatures, and are treated as evil-aligned for overcoming damage reduction. You gain DR/good equal to one-third your character level (rounded down).
  
• Fire: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +1d6 damage, and inflict fire damage rather than their normal damage type. You gain fire resistance equal to half your character level (rounded down).
  
• Good: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +2d6 damage to evil creatures, half damage to good creatures, and are treated as good-aligned for overcoming damage reduction. You gain DR/evil equal to one-third your character level (rounded down).
  
• Force: Your Stunning Fist attacks inflict force damage rather than their normal damage type. Your skin gains the ghost touch property.
  
• Law: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +2d6 damage to chaotic creatures, half damage to lawful creatures, and are treated as law-aligned for overcoming damage reduction. You gain DR/chaos equal to one-third your character level (rounded down).
  
• Negative: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +1d6 damage, and inflict negative energy damage rather than their normal damage type. Deathless targets are dazed on a failed save rather than stunned. Your unarmed strikes inflict nonlethal damage to creatures healed by negative energy (i.e. you cannot use your unarmed strikes to heal).
  
• Positive: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +1d6 damage, and inflict positive energy damage rather than their normal damage type. Undead targets are dazed on a failed save rather than stunned. Your unarmed strikes inflict nonlethal damage to creatures healed by positive energy (i.e. you cannot use your unarmed strikes to heal).
  
• Sonic: Your Stunning Fist attacks deal +1d4 damage, and inflict sonic damage rather than their normal damage type. You gain sonic resistance equal to half your character level (rounded down).
  

Planar Meditation (feat): You can swap out one of your Planar Essences as a full-round action.

Purity of Body (Ex): At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.

Zen Strike (Ex): At 5th level a monk deals additional damage with their unarmed strikes equal to their Wis modifier. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit even if the target is not vulnerable to critical hits.

Diamond Body (Ex): At 7th level a monk gains immunity to poison.

Flight (Su): At 7th level a monk can fly at a speed equal to his land speed with perfect maneuverability.

Abundant Step (Su): At 9th level a monk can create a dimension door effect as a move action at will, except that its range is equal to his land speed and he may still take his remaining actions for the turn after use.

Diamond Soul (Su): At 10th level a monk gains Spell Resistance equal to 11 + his character level. This ability does not function while the monk is helpless. He may raise or lower his spell resistance as a free action, even when it's not his turn.

Perfect Self: At 10th level the monk gains DR/magic equal to his character level. His type changes to Outsider, but he may choose to count as his original type whenever it is more convenient (allowing him to be subject to effects like enlarge person and raise dead).

(click to show/hide)

After 10th level, monks must pick a PrC to continue their advancement. To enter a PrC you must be a 10th-level monk with at least one prereq from a short list - this prereq represents a mundane fighting style which is thematically linked to the plane in question. Most PrCs force you to switch out one of your planar essences at 1st level (to ensure at least one is relevant), and allow you to gain its benefits with normal attacks.

• Abyss: Turn into a tanar'ri (no you can't be an obyrith or something unless you were born that way), gaining things like natural weapons and acidic blood. Prereqs are things like Power Attack.
  
• Astral Plane: Requires at least 1 pp, and grants astral projection rather than plane shift. Your physical and astral bodies can switch places, or fuse to surround you with a damaging aura that makes you crazy fast; like, spaceship fast (you can keep it up indefinitely as long as you take run actions). Your astral cord can no longer be sundered by silver swords, and you can use it as a weapon. You can travel inside peoples' souls and destroy them.
  
• Baator: You need to negotiate for this path, but it gets you a pretty good position in the infernal hierarchy (just getting this far is proof enough of your competence). You gain devil traits and the ability to call in favours. Must be lawful, but need not be evil - a lawful good guy who works as a devil for philosophical reasons is weird but okay.
  
• Celestia: Along with standard angelness you gain Defeat Means Friendship (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DefeatMeansFriendship) powers (beating people up lets you diplomance them, break curses, provide atonement etc.), plus the ability to perform miracles by sacrificing your life. Also you act as a sort of herald for the plane, and can summon powerful allies but only in situations of dire need (eg. great numbers of innocents are about to die, summon angels who can defend the innocents but nothing else).
  
• Elemental Planes: You become an Avatar character, basically. Earth has prereq options like Improved Toughness and Stone Power, etc. Water = simultaneous Powerful+Slight Build. Possibly you are also a genie.
  
• Ethereal Plane: Plane shift to the Material Plane from the Ethereal (you can already do the reverse). Count as physical or ethereal, whichever is more convenient. Knowledge-gathering abilities from scooping up lingering memories left in the plane. Your Stunning Fist can restore lost memories, or grant people inherent bonuses by making them remember past lives. Eventually you can exist in the Deep Ethereal, which is mechanically treated as being "double-ethereal".
  
• Limbo: No planar essence tradeout, instead apply any one essence to normal attacks at a time. Gain more essences as you gain levels.
  
• Material Plane: Themed around either technology (Gun kata! Dismantle a car as a move action!) or abstract concepts (think TATARI from Melty Blood).
  
• Mechanus: This PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14174154) with minor adjustments. Possible addition: "Shift Gear (Ex): when you take an action which involves movement, you can reduce your speed to rev up your gears for 1 round, causing your attacks to inflict +1d4 damage per 5ft sacrificed (max 1d4 per class level, cannot reduce speed below 0ft)."
  
• Outlands: No prerequisites, so that no monk build gets "stuck".
  
• Plane of Shadow: Bonus Fighting Style to ensure you have Weapon Adept, can create weapons out of shadows.
  
• Positive/Negative Energy Planes: Turn into a deathless or undead respectively, get fast healing and an energy aura. Positives can heal and animate objects (including animating objects while you're wielding them to increase your reach or attack around corners), negatives get entropy/disintegration powers and can pull enemies in like a black hole. Something sunlight yellow overdrive something.
  

All PrCs grant the following class feature at 1st level:

Quote

Planar Attunement: The (name) is considered native to (plane) in addition to his plane of origin. As a native he is immune to any negative effects of being on that plane (such as the ambient fire damage of the Elemental Plane of Fire) and never gains the extraplanar subtype there. In addition, the monk may plane shift to (plane) as a full-round action at will (DC = 10 + half his character level + his Wis modifier); this is a supernatural ability.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on May 02, 2013, 07:36:51 PM

We need to get going on this, because I had a campaign idea.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on August 22, 2013, 01:56:01 PM

OK, two more epic seeds: creation and force.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Garryl on August 11, 2014, 09:34:14 PM

I'm having trouble finding the rules for spic spellcasting. I can't seem to find where how refinement works is defined, nor anything about how often you can cast them (the feats read as being at-will, but that doesn't sound right).

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on August 12, 2014, 12:04:16 AM

Quote from: Garryl on August 11, 2014, 09:34:14 PM

I'm having trouble finding the rules for spic spellcasting. I can't seem to find where how refinement works is defined,

"Special: You may select this feat multiple times, each time choosing either a new epic spell, or attaining another refinement on a spell you already know."

Quote

nor anything about how often you can cast them (the feats read as being at-will, but that doesn't sound right).

"Epic spells are cast just as normal spells, subject to the specific details given below; you may cast epic spells any number of times per day."

From the Epic Spellcasting writeup.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Garryl on August 12, 2014, 11:52:13 AM

I'd suggest splitting off the refinement to another feat so it's clearer (one feat to learn the spells, one feat to add refinement to a known spell). It would be like how it is now, but you'd have two different feats instead of the same feat twice doing different things.

So epic spells are at will, then?

Also, what about the save DC? There's no generalized formula, although every spell with a save seems to be 10 + 1/2 CL + primary casting score. However, since epic spells aren't tied to class, which primary casting score? Both for multiclass characters, and for characters in classes that use different scores for different spellcasting aspects (such as Favored Soul).

Edit: Obscure - Acting Below Notice says "your spellcasting ability score", not "your primary spellcasting ability score".

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on August 12, 2014, 12:13:51 PM

Quote from: Garryl on August 12, 2014, 11:52:13 AM

I'd suggest splitting off the refinement to another feat so it's clearer (one feat to learn the spells, one feat to add refinement to a known spell). It would be like how it is now, but you'd have two different feats instead of the same feat twice doing different things.

Done.

Quote

So epic spells are at will, then?

Indeed.

Quote

Also, what about the save DC? There's no generalized formula, although every spell with a save seems to be 10 + 1/2 CL + primary casting score. However, since epic spells aren't tied to class, which primary casting score? Both for multiclass characters, and for characters in classes that use different scores for different spellcasting aspects (such as Favored Soul).

Edit: Obscure - Acting Below Notice says "your spellcasting ability score", not "your primary spellcasting ability score".

Clarified.

I also posted the Awareness sphere.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Garryl on August 12, 2014, 12:48:05 PM

Refined Spellcasting should say non-apex epic spell.

I'm not sure being at will works with all epic spells. Abundant Animus, at the very least, makes you all but unkillable. It also doesn't mesh with how non-epic spells use slots.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on August 12, 2014, 02:58:06 PM

Quote from: Garryl on August 12, 2014, 12:48:05 PM

Refined Spellcasting should say non-apex epic spell.

Fixed.

Quote

I'm not sure being at will works with all epic spells. Abundant Animus, at the very least, makes you all but unkillable. It also doesn't mesh with how non-epic spells use slots.

Hm.  I'm not sure how to handle slots, though, and I'd rather stay away from per-day in general... but if we did per-day, you could have one epic slot (usable for any spell you know) for each of the four feats that you take...? I mean, with Abundant Animus, you have to use an immediate action so it's not like you'll be able to cast unlimited of them in a round... also if you use it on yourself you lose your equipment unless you have a lot of refinement on it...

I dunno. What would you suggest?

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Garryl on August 12, 2014, 03:52:43 PM

It doesn't help that there are so many ways of dealing with spell knowledge and slots from all the different spellcasting classes. It might be interesting to have a number of different epic spellcasting feats that each require a different sort of basic spellcasting and give you access in a similar method. Just spitballing here, but... (Tweak numbers as needed, of course.)

Example:
Spontaneous Epic Spellcasting: Gain knowledge of 2 non-apex epic spells and 3 spontaneous epic spell slots. (Favored Soul, Sorcerer, etc.)
Prepared Epic Spellcasting: Gain knowledge of 4 non-apex epic spells and 2 prepared epic spell slots. (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, etc.)
Retrieved Epic Spellcasting: Gain knowledge of 4 non-apex epic spells and 3 retrieved epic spell slots with 1 epic spell retrieved. (Spirit Shaman)
Extra Epic Spell: Learn 1 more non-apex epic spell.
Extra Epic Slot: Gain 1 more epic spell slot of a type you have.
Extra Epic Retrieval: Retrieve 1 more epic spell at a time.
Refined Spellcasting: Add a degree of refinement to chosen non-apex epic spell.
Apex Spellcasting: Learn an apex epic spell.
Apex Refinement: Add a degree of refinement to chosen apex epic spell.

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on August 13, 2014, 05:31:54 AM

I do like this, actually... except that having so many different feats seems really unwieldy... hm.

EDIT: Wait, this is Great Wheel. There's only spontaneous spellcasting (prep is available for everyone as an option for fast metamagic).

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: Nanshork on July 24, 2017, 06:33:10 PM

sirp, you've been pimping this project out recently.  What's the chances of it getting finished?

Title: Re: Intro, Discussion, & Brainstorming
Post by: sirpercival on July 24, 2017, 07:16:46 PM

Quote from: Nanshork on July 24, 2017, 06:33:10 PM

sirp, you've been pimping this project out recently.  What's the chances of it getting finished?

Well it's farther from being finished than most of my other projects... but I do want to work more on it. I just have many things to work on :) I definitely intend to finish it eventually... especially if I get contributions from other people.