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Gaming Discussion => D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder => Topic started by: Power on December 03, 2013, 01:45:35 AM

Title: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 03, 2013, 01:45:35 AM
You know, I figured, what the heck. I have my own perspective on the Tiers, so I may as well share it.

For those of you unfamiliar with what tiers are about, tiers are not an idle measure of how "awesome" a class is, but rather a measure of its problem-solving capabilities in terms of power and versatility. Consider a wide array of challenges (ie. kill a dragon, rescue a princess, cross a chasm, make your way past a trapped maze, protect a village/fortress from advancing hordes, uncover a spy, find a mystical artifact, solve a murder mystery, assassinate an enemy, make your way through swarms of monsters, make your way to a distant destination in the nick of time, protect/heal a VIP from taking large amounts of damage, uncover/resolve court intrigue, escape prison, and so on). What sets apart the high tiers (tier 1 and tier 2) are their ability to easily solve challenges (any sort of challenge for tier 1) through class abilities and the low tiers (5 or 6) is that they can only seriously contribute to a small variety of challenges and even then can end up performing badly. Spellcasters therefore tend to be higher in the tiers because not only are there extremely powerful spells in PF, but every spell is its own trick, thus providing an incredibly robust arsenal of tools to handle a very large variety of situations while the mundanes are usually stuck barely having any tricks at all beyond full attacking and rolling skills if they have the ranks for it (and even then many spellcasters can outperform mundanes at the mundanes' own job or otherwise render them unnecessary by using the right spells). As such, the major limitation on a spellcaster's problem-solving is whether he can cast the appropriate spells in time (and that includes the usage of partial spell preparation or methods to expand your spells known to hand yourself the appropriate spells as needed). This is why we call Pathfinder spellcaster edition.*

The basic purpose of a tier list is to help people eyeball party balance and what kind of character is in danger of being severely overshadowed, made redundant, or otherwise left feeling useless. Even if you are a low optimization group that avoids the more potent tricks in a class's arsenal, large differences in tiers do tend to assert themselves sooner or later. At the end of the day, you don't want your game to feel like the comedic superhero team-up of the Angel Summoner and the BMX Bandit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw). This is especially troublesome when you have high tiers and lower tiers covering the same party role, like having a Druid or Summoner in the same party as a Barbarian or Fighter, but even without that, it is easy to end up with high tier classes dominating campaign challenges and encounters in ways that leave low tier characters feeling like a mop-up crew for an already resolved encounter when it should have been their time to shine. Because of this, it is generally recommended to either not have wide gaps in tiers, have the lower tiers perform strongly at their role (and the higher tiers avoid stepping too much into the lower tiers' roles), or that you gift lower tiers unusual rewards and items that make them more flexible than common members of their class, so they are at lower risk of standing around being useless (maybe you give your party archer some neat light armor with shadow property, a fancy +1 ghost touch net, a grappling hook, adamantine pickaxe, hat of disguise, helm of telepathy, ring of invisibility, alchemical items, flying carpet, who knows). Also, although a party of T4s and lower can be quite balanced and fun to play, the difficulty is obviously higher, so you need to check that the basic needs of the party are covered and that the players are approaching combat and other challenges smartly. The benefit of high tier classes, obviously, is that they make the game easier.

Also, just to address some common arguments brought up by people who I am rather certain are just rushing for reasons to act dismissive: No, this tier list is not about level 20 characters, or spellcasters once they have 9th level spells. (At the very least, Summoners and Oracles would be automatic T1 if that were the case, because they have Gate and Miracle.) It is not a 3.5+PF tier list either. The list also assumes no game-breaking intent (as even a Vow of Poverty Monk who keeps his vow can become T1 with the right stunts). It assumes low-op to mid-op, played with a basic degree of competence (ie. you know and employ the basic strengths, tactics, and necessities of your class, so no 100% blaster Wizards, no Bards who act like they're a non-combat class outside of just inspiring courage, no Clerics who think their only job is to heal, no Oracles taking genuinely class-crippling curses without resolving the crippling part somehow, no Alchemists who filled their formula books with formulas that their class has no way of using because paizo is funny that way, no Human Paladins who thought it would be hilarious to put their favored class bonus into positive energy resistance just because they could...). High optimization tends to raise a class by at least a tier, and being bad at your class can easily bring it down one or more tiers.

*For the curious, other reasons why we regard Pathfinder to be spellcaster edition are that martials have to invest large amounts of resources (feats & money) just to stay useful at their primary role while spellcasters need much less to get going and are free to invest those resources into adding whatever they like to their characters (a problem inherited from 3.5, and also a major factor why doing a campaign without access to magical items just makes the martial/caster disparity even worse) and because Pathfinder significantly buffed spellcasters (ie. tons of extra spells known for spont casters; Wizards now get to cast their bannedopposition schools, can now choose familiars at lvl 1 that provide a +4 initiative bonus, and get much better hp; Clerics gained automatic proficiency with their deity's favored weapon, superior healing, and access to stronger domain powers like Druid animal companions; etc.) while martials are more disadvantaged (new feat taxes, "realism taxes," a combat maneuver system that requires investment and does not work without extreme optimization at higher levels, difficulty with full attacking if they have to move (esp. below level 10), and the new inability to Quick Draw (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Quick%20Draw) alchemical weapons (what you did in 3.5 (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickDraw) if you felt like doing something useful with full attacks other than attack for damage)). PF did nerf a number of crazy spells, but it also retained and added plenty of other crazy spells to make up for it.


The Tiers


Anything in red is weak for its tier. Anything in blue is strong for its tier. Not sure if there's a point to color-coding Tier 1s or Tier 6s, but I marked the vow of poverty monk in red for Tier 6 since it's so stupid it's usually in a league of its own.

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Witch, Sorcerer (Razmiran Priest archetype, Paragon Surge spell, Mongrel Mage archetype, Mnemonic Vestment robe), Oracle (Paragon Surge spell, Mnemonic Vestment robe, Dreamed Secrets feat, Spirit Guide with Versatile Spontaneity + Magical Epiphany feats, etc.), Psychic (Mnemonic Esoterica discipline power, Mnemonic Vestment robe, Amnesiac archetype), Shaman, Arcanist, Bard/Skald (Music Beyond the Spheres masterpiece)

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Oracle, Psychic, Sorcerer, Summoner, Unchained Summoner, Monster Tactician Inquisitor

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Alchemist, Bard, Skald, Inquisitor, Magus, Investigator, Warpriest, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue, Vigilante w/ spellcasting archetype, Occultist, Mesmerist, Medium (when it can seance its spirits easily), Spiritualist, Hunter, Paladin (Sacred Servant+Oath of Vengeance, or Torag patron spells), Fiendish Bond Antipaladin with Succubus or Shadow Demon

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Adept, Barbarian, Unchained Barbarian, Bloodrager, Paladin, Ranger, Slayer, Medium (when it can't seance well), Kineticist, Shifter, Antipaladin, Sohei Monk (preferably with Qinggong Monk powers), Fighter, Cavalier, Samurai

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Brawler, Vigilante, Ninja, Rogue, Unchained Rogue, Gunslinger*, Swashbuckler, Archetyped Monks, Unchained Monk

*Admittedly firearm builds, once they have their kinks worked out, tend to be T4, but that is overwhelmingly a result of feats and items. The Gunslinger class itself does precious little for the build, and is really only used for the dex to damage class feature, after which just about everyone multiclasses out of Gunslinger. Hard to say whether it should be marked T4 due to firearm builds being strong or T5 because the actual class is bad and outperformed by many T5 and higher classes if you develop them as firearm builds, so I am making a special note of this.

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Vanilla Monk, Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior, Commoner, Vow of Poverty Monk
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: TiaC on December 03, 2013, 02:00:49 AM
Is Brawler really T4? The changing feats is nice, but you can't really do much with it. I'd also doubt whether Hexcrafter really moves Magus up a tier.

Do you have rankings for DSP Pathfinder Psionics?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Wrex on December 03, 2013, 02:30:34 AM
You may want to take into acount the revised version of Arcanist (buffed from it's original inception)

New Arcanist (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qel1?Official-Revision-Arcanist)

Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 03, 2013, 11:30:43 AM
Is Brawler really T4? The changing feats is nice, but you can't really do much with it.
The spontaneous feats doesn't make the Brawler amazing, but in a pinch for instance the Brawler could use his spontaneous feats pick up a whip and hand himself proficiency and turn into a trip build. So a Brawler falls into "capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining" to me.

I'd also doubt whether Hexcrafter really moves Magus up a tier.
Hexes like Deep Slumber and Ice Tomb are some ridiculous SoL. Handing options like that to the Magus coupled with his access to the Wizard spell list gives him the "nukes" to be a low but aggravating Tier 2 I think.

Do you have rankings for DSP Pathfinder Psionics?
Nope.

You may want to take into acount the revised version of Arcanist (buffed from it's original inception)
It's still a Tier 1. The MAD approach of Arcanist Exploit saving throws means nothing because you just dump Charisma and ditch those shitty saving throw exploits anyway. The ability to hand himself a bonus to DC and caster level to any spell on demand is just stupid and Dimensional Slide is retarded because it lets him make AOO immune move actions that give no fucks about terrain as long as he can see point B in 10 feet plus move an extra 5 feet of distance and do all this without even expending an additional action.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: veekie on December 08, 2013, 06:35:54 AM
And really the casting mechanic does all the heavy lifting already.

You might want to flag low and high on borderline cases though.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 11, 2013, 02:08:14 AM
Moved Hexcrafter Magus off of Tier 2. It's strong but I'm not sure if it's worth its own listing. I guess it's probably just internal tier movement.

As for marking low tiers, I just marked Summoner, Magus, and Ninja as low tiers. Any comments?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: veekie on December 11, 2013, 02:43:25 AM
Looks about right, though Ninja is somewhat debatable, they have the kind of output to match their T4 position, though probably without as much overkill as a Paladin might dish out, I peg the Ninja at around the Ranger personally.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 11, 2013, 02:55:06 AM
Looks about right, though Ninja is somewhat debatable, they have the kind of output to match their T4 position, though probably without as much overkill as a Paladin might dish out, I peg the Ninja at around the Ranger personally.
The ninja is too reliant on Sneak Attack for my tastes which means that for a Tier 4 he is too vulnerable to getting blown out of his niche. As the levels go up this becomes more and more dramatically apparent, unlike other tier 4s which maintain their usefulness. I suppose his Charisma + UMD will let him stay useful as a party member, but he becomes awfully reliant on various items and scrolls to carry his weight then, rather than class features. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: veekie on December 11, 2013, 03:06:37 AM
The list of creatures which are actually immune to sneak attacks is pretty small now though. It's just Elementals, Oozes and Protean creatures(incorporeals are trivially bypassed with ghost touch), of which only Proteans are really dangerous(but uncommon encounters), and the other two are common but mostly harmless to fight.

I dare say decent charisma and UMD should round out those, the Ninja already has on demand invisibility to power sneak attacks with.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 11, 2013, 03:28:40 AM
The list of creatures which are actually immune to sneak attacks is pretty small now though. It's just Elementals, Oozes and Protean creatures(incorporeals are trivially bypassed with ghost touch), of which only Proteans are really dangerous(but uncommon encounters), and the other two are common but mostly harmless to fight.

I dare say decent charisma and UMD should round out those, the Ninja already has on demand invisibility to power sneak attacks with.
There's also the list of creatures which cannot be reliably invis'd against (true seeing, blindsight, scent?, etc.) to set up sneak attacks, shit with fortification or uncanny dodge, and that's on top of encounters where you can't use your build's weapon and are forced to use another (if you were smart enough to carry one).

By the way, I think Sacred Servant Paladin might be a low tier 3 between the domain and planar ally.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: veekie on December 11, 2013, 03:50:09 AM
That's where UMD comes in, but where invisibility doesn't work there's usually flanking at least. Unless your Ninja is primary melee for your party, in which case you poor sod.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on December 11, 2013, 06:04:54 PM
Rogue and Ninja are both tier 5.  Maybe Ninja is high tier 5.  But they're not NEARLY as different in power and capability as everyone claims.  Ninja may be just plain better than rogue, but it's not much better.  It's the same shitty class chassis and shtick with less worthless talents.  But a smart rogue just burns as many of his talents on feats as possible (if you want either Finesse or Weapon Focus, you can easily pull this off through at least 12th level), making that kind of moot.

Ninja is also pretty cripplingly MAD, I think the most MAD class in general in the game (you can easily make specific builds that use every single stat and are more MAD, of course).  It basically wants everything a monk does, except charisma instead of wisdom... but oh wait, can't dump wisdom like a monk would charisma because you have a horrible set of base saves that includes poor will.

The only Ninja build that is remotely possible of being a full tier above rogue is the Bewildering Koan build, since that lets you spend swift actions to rob foes of their whole turns, though you'd burn through ki crazy fast, and if you actually make a Gnome (as opposed to burning a feat on Racial Heritage), your stats will be pretty bad and your physical attack capability quite gimpy.

Rogue or Ninja that takes the Terrain Mastery talent repeatedly and goes full Horizon Walker is also a very strong build, though the HW part is doing the heavy lifting there.  Terrain Dominance is just insane.

EDIT: I also don't think Summoner is low tier 2, they are pretty brutal with action economy, they have almost as good casting as a 9-level caster (can't apply metamagic feats as easily, but they DO get to use significantly cheaper MM rods), and the eidolon on its own is arguably a tier 3.  It can fly, pounce, reach whore, chain maneuvers off its attacks for free, and be a skill monkey, among other options.  And can easily do several of those things with the evo points.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 11, 2013, 11:02:35 PM
Sure, but a Sorcerer can easily pick up an animal companion (Sylvan bloodline) or familiar (Arcane bloodline or Tattooed Sorcerer) himself. Compared to a Sorcerer, the Summoner's abilities are still on the weak end.

As for Ninja, not sure. He does have forgotten trick, self-invis, and an extra attack through his ki pool. It might be internal tier movement or a low tier 4.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 12, 2013, 03:35:36 PM
Added some color-coding, moved Ninja to Tier 5. Added Zen Archer Monk as a low Tier 4.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on December 12, 2013, 07:26:10 PM
Sure, but a Sorcerer can easily pick up an animal companion (Sylvan bloodline) or familiar (Arcane bloodline or Tattooed Sorcerer) himself. Compared to a Sorcerer, the Summoner's abilities are still on the weak end.

Well, Summoner can easily get a familiar, too.  Via Eldritch Heritage.  On top of the eidolon.  And IMO, Eidolons are leagues better than animal companions.

But yeah, Sorcerer is a stronger class.  Just not sure it's that much stronger.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 12, 2013, 08:04:12 PM
Sure, but a Sorcerer can easily pick up an animal companion (Sylvan bloodline) or familiar (Arcane bloodline or Tattooed Sorcerer) himself. Compared to a Sorcerer, the Summoner's abilities are still on the weak end.

Well, Summoner can easily get a familiar, too.  Via Eldritch Heritage.  On top of the eidolon.  And IMO, Eidolons are leagues better than animal companions.

A Sorcerer can cast buffs like polymorphs or Transformation on his familiar or animal companion. And unlike Eidolons, animal companions do not share magic item slots with their owners.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: PsyBomb on December 12, 2013, 10:15:25 PM
On the flip side, a Master Summoner variant Summoner can have as many SLA casts as he wants and has capacity for up at once, and some of the alternate summon lists get crazy (not much can argue with a couple dozen opposed-alignment Template Tigers). They come online at level 5, and have access to any Su, SLA, and spell anything they can summon can cast. it's a long list, and I'd argue for them being at least a high T2, if not a low 1.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: veekie on December 13, 2013, 07:55:24 AM
Having been playing a Summoner for a while now I'd say it really pays hard when you can crank the summons repeatedly. The Eidolon looks important, but it's just another fighter, whereas you have enough summon uses to literally summon a creature into a pouncing charge every turn and never run out.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 17, 2013, 11:31:51 PM
I'm not inclined to make a note of the Master Summoner just for internal tier movement. It's definitely a step up, but it's not Tier 1. Also, I put the Hexcrafter Magus back on Tier 2 since a Hexcrafter Magus can go through encounters with just his Hexes alone.

Also, fun note: Expert dropped from Tier 5 to Tier 6 due to Pathfinder's new skill system and ridiculous traits. Rogue class has suffered from this too.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on December 18, 2013, 02:17:22 AM
What hexes?  He can't really afford to cackle because he's a martial class unlike the pure-caster witch w/ plenty of spells to lob around.  So that removes most of the offensive options.  And he doesn't even get hexes till 4th level.  IMO, the only good hexes for a Hexcrafter are Slumber, Flight, and Prehensile Hair (for using touch spells w/o provoking).  Only one of those is offensive, and being able to spam a single mind-affecting save-or-lose really doesn't seem like tier 2 material to me.  Definitely buffs it up in the tier 3 range quite a bit, though.

It's especially egregious if you continue to insist that Summoner is *also* "low" tier 2.  You think Summoner, including Master Summoner, and Hexcrafter are remotely comparable?  I can't even take that seriously.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 18, 2013, 04:16:16 PM
Eh fine, took it off the low Tier 2. Most people will play him with a martial bent which means suboptimal int and with the slow hex access unlikely to invest into misfortune cackle. But the fact that it's a martial class doesn't mean he can't misfortune cackle, slumber, ice tomb, etc.

Also, Prehensile Hair is also useful for metamagic rods, mithral shields, an additional natural attack (why not?), or threatening nearby enemies (and if Prehensile Hair is your only natural attack, those AoOs with your hair count as primary attacks with 1-1/2 bonus). I know you prefer Prehensile Tail racials for rods, but Prehensile Hair works too.

It's especially egregious if you continue to insist that Summoner is *also* "low" tier 2.  You think Summoner, including Master Summoner, and Hexcrafter are remotely comparable?  I can't even take that seriously.
Master Summoner is different from regular Summoner. But the other Summoners are a low Tier 2. They don't have the same spell access and the Sorcerer still outperforms them except in the number of Summon Monsters per day.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 26, 2013, 07:59:07 PM
Hm, been speculating about whether the Paragon Surge Summoner might go up to tier 1.

EDIT: Going to leave the answer as "no" since his spell list is still too limited for that.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on January 11, 2014, 07:26:32 PM
Switched the Summoner from low Tier 2 to regular Tier 2 courtesy of his high amounts of top level Summon Monster per day. Also, removed the Zen Archer Monk from Tier 4.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Ed-Zero on January 16, 2014, 11:33:49 PM
How is druid Tier 1? Wildshaping got nerfed hard in PF...
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on January 17, 2014, 01:20:43 AM
How is druid Tier 1? Wildshaping got nerfed hard in PF...

Wildshape got nerfed, but it's still a good buff.  Druids are just MAD instead of SAD now.  And they get wildshape and natural spell a level earlier and size large 2 levels early, to be fair.  Some 3E druids actually had to start at level 1, you know...

Druid's still a prepared caster that knows his entire list and uses the best mental stat for casting.  It does still have by far the weakest spell list of the core-4 primary casters and SNA gotten badly beaten w/ the nerf stick, too.  (Animal Companion is also severely crunched).  So I think you could say they're low tier 1.  But they're still definitely tier 1.  They did get some fringe benefits, though.  Like, the ability to have a lot of "primary" natural weapons in PF.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on January 20, 2014, 12:17:53 AM
The Druid can also take a domain in for more spells (in fact, taking the Feather subdomain and grabbing the Boon Companion feat is often a better option than just taking an animal bond). There are also archetypes for the Druid that expand domain and spell selection.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: TiaC on January 20, 2014, 08:07:58 AM
My suggestions for DSP Psionics:

T1: Wilder or Psion using augmented PsyRef

T2:Psion, Educated Wilder W/human favored class, Human Vitalist?, Tactician?

T3: Wilder, Gifted blade, Psychic Warrior, Vitalist, Dread(Nightmare constructor moves dread from low tier 3 to high tier 3)

T4: Soulknife, Cryptic, Aegis, Marksman
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: PsyBomb on January 20, 2014, 01:19:42 PM
Not sure if Vitalist belongs in T2, even if Human. They aren't going to go out and have game-warping power, but they are nearly incomparably good at what they do when properly optimized for it. Otherwise I agree, though the Aegis is very high on T4.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: TiaC on January 20, 2014, 04:14:15 PM
Really? I've never been that impressed by them. How do you figure?

You're probably right on the Vitalist, they're missing most of the top tier powers.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: PsyBomb on January 20, 2014, 08:19:47 PM
Really? I've never been that impressed by them. How do you figure?

You're probably right on the Vitalist, they're missing most of the top tier powers.

Aegis has easy (EASY) access to buttloads of Strength increases and size increases with it, including Powerful Build from level 1 and flight immediately on level 5. Playing in a game right now where one at level 4 is dealing 3d6+18 on a swing. They're also versatile bunch, given the variety of Astral Suits and customization they can come up with, and if you have at least 14 Int then Reconfigure and Augment Suit become very strong utility.

Among other things, the Harness Power Stone line lets you cast any power you find a Stone for 4th level and lower, up to 21st manifester level effectively. UPD with Power Stone Repository at max turns you into a full caster that just needs to reload every so often, and you get Master Craftsman for free at 5.

Trust me, it's good.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on January 22, 2014, 04:10:49 PM
[redacted]
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: TiaC on January 22, 2014, 07:56:47 PM
This seems to be a non-sequiter. Did you mean to post in another thread?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 08, 2014, 11:40:49 PM
Er yes, 'fraid so. Been long enough I don't remember which thread I meant to post that in. Dammit.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Frogman55 on February 20, 2014, 07:03:36 PM
Am I correct in thinking that the tiers are primarily about flexibility and effectiveness in different roles rather than about raw power?

A high tier would be easier for a player to constantly feel like they could contribute, while a low tier would often feel like a dead weight at the table?

Is there any thinking about making a distinction between standard pathfinder tiers and Pathfinder Society (organized play) tiers? I ask because everyone I know who does play pathfinder does it because organized play fits their schedule and style better than an actual homebrew game. At the same time, Paizo is aggressive about trying to weed out various options deemed overpowered (or possibly just too complicated. Or evil. Or other various reasons) for their organized games. Additionally, organized play tops out at level 12, rather than 20. The game-breaking options available to a level 12 wizard, as compared to a magus or rogue are different than the comparison at level 20. Does this affect any of the tiers?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 21, 2014, 07:38:49 PM
It's about both. Flexibility alone won't get you above Tier 3. And without raw power, the Barbarian would probably drop down to Tier 5, maybe even 6. I edited the tiers to provide description of tier levels.

Tier lists assume a reasonable degree of competence where you know how to make good use of your class. This is without any serious optimization or resorting to game-breaking intent. A number of classes can go up a tier depending on how they're optimized. For instance, a Diplomancer Bard can easily be Tier 2. A UMD Paladin can also be Tier 2 with the right items. Anyone can be a Tier 1 with a Craft Wondrous Item feat and Candles of Invocation, but this would definitely be game-breaking intent.

I moved Skald down from Tier 2 to a high Tier 3 because he's still not getting nukes like the other classes do, even with his outrageous versatility using Spell Kenning, Craft Scroll, and UMD.

Organized play does not affect tiers.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Frogman55 on February 21, 2014, 09:43:47 PM
It's about both. Flexibility alone won't get you above Tier 3. And without raw power, the Barbarian would probably drop down to Tier 5, maybe even 6. I edited the tiers to provide description of tier levels.

Tier lists assume a reasonable degree of competence where you know how to make good use of your class. This is without any serious optimization or resorting to game-breaking intent. A number of classes can go up a Tier depending on how they're optimized. For instance, a Diplomancer Bard can easily be Tier 2. A UMD Paladin can also be Tier 2 with the right items. Anyone can be a Tier 1 with a Craft Wondrous Item feat and Candles of Invocation, but this would definitely be game-breaking intent.
This makes sense.

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Organized play does not affect tiers.
I suppose the lower cap wouldn't really affect things. There are a few 'win' buttons available at the lower levels, at least for the full casters.

I can't help but feel like some considerations may change things. Complete lack of crafting abilities and the prohibitions on overpowered* feats/archetypes/etc., not to mention limited time-constraints both in character during most missions as well as out of character at the table may limit certain things. In addition, wouldn't the constrained nature of the scenarios (in that GMs cannot counter-escalate in tactics, nor make better choices (I've never seen a PFS cleric with Freedom of Movement, for example)) help too?

I guess my problem and doubts might be more a result of the 'reasonable degree of competence' than anything else. I've yet to see a Bard contribute meaningfully to a session beyond a knowledge check or two. But in much the same thread, I've seen more clerics and wizards without something helpful to do than I've seen rogues and core monks fail. Of course, I'm generally aware when a cleric or wizard fails that bad it's probably the result of a player's poor build or preparation. I suppose it's reasonable to think that poor play is the problem with those bards, too.

But the other side of the token is those effective rogues and monks, too. Maybe PFS scenarios are just too easy.


*overpowered according to designers with remarkably poor understanding of their own game.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 22, 2014, 01:58:00 AM
I can't help but feel like some considerations may change things. Complete lack of crafting abilities and the prohibitions on overpowered* feats/archetypes/etc., not to mention limited time-constraints both in character during most missions as well as out of character at the table may limit certain things. In addition, wouldn't the constrained nature of the scenarios (in that GMs cannot counter-escalate in tactics, nor make better choices (I've never seen a PFS cleric with Freedom of Movement, for example)) help too?
The only crazy archetypes it gets under control are Pack Lord Druid and Master Summoner. Lack of item creation feats mostly means players won't break WBL in half, but I suspect there are other ways to do that in PFS anyway.

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I guess my problem and doubts might be more a result of the 'reasonable degree of competence' than anything else. I've yet to see a Bard contribute meaningfully to a session beyond a knowledge check or two. But in much the same thread, I've seen more clerics and wizards without something helpful to do than I've seen rogues and core monks fail. Of course, I'm generally aware when a cleric or wizard fails that bad it's probably the result of a player's poor build or preparation. I suppose it's reasonable to think that poor play is the problem with those bards, too.
In PFS I imagine most Bard players really don't know how to play Bards and do horrid "spread yourself thin" builds or "oh no I'm a non-combat class I didn't get anything combat relevant." Here's a PFS build challenge for using the Bard class: Get 18 str - 14 dex - 14 con - 7 int - 7 wis - 11 cha (at level 4 put your +1 ability score into Cha so you can cast 2nd level spells) and go Dual Talent Human for +2 Strength and +2 Dex (so 20 str, 16 dex total), and put your favored class bonuses into hp. Now go support build on him. Watch what happens. You can easily do better than this.

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But the other side of the token is those effective rogues and monks, too. Maybe PFS scenarios are just too easy.
I believe they are. They decided to nerf Crane Wing because PFS couldn't deal with it.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Frogman55 on February 22, 2014, 12:05:16 PM
In PFS I imagine most Bard players really don't know how to play Bards and do horrid "spread yourself thin" builds or "oh no I'm a non-combat class I didn't get anything combat relevant." Here's a PFS build challenge for using the Bard class: Get 18 str - 14 dex - 14 con - 7 int - 7 wis - 11 cha (at level 4 put your +1 ability score into Cha so you can cast 2nd level spells) and go Dual Talent Human for +2 Strength and +2 Dex (so 20 str, 16 dex total), and put your favored class bonuses into hp. Now go support build on him. Watch what happens. You can easily do better than this.
I might just have to.

I wonder how much of the distaste that many players have with optimization isn't about the high-powered characters so much as its about the fact that a low-cha bard can be better than a high cha one. (or how a low cha/dex swashbuckler is better than one that maxes them). People don't hate it because they're being outshined, but hate it because they're having their pre-conceptions overturned (or their character description fluff overturned, which is what I think Paizo really, really hates).

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But the other side of the token is those effective rogues and monks, too. Maybe PFS scenarios are just too easy.
I believe they are. They decided to nerf Crane Wing because PFS couldn't deal with it.
I'm curious whats going to happen as the scenarios continue. Seasons 4 still isn't that powerful, but it's markedly more difficult than season 1 - 3, and season 5 appears to have gotten even more difficult.

Regardless, thanks for the feedback, Power. I think the discussion has turned far enough that I ought to take it to another thread, so I'll do that once I have a few thoughts in order.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 22, 2014, 06:37:17 PM
The funny thing is that if you build a Bard as a selfish 2H fighter (Dawnflower Dervish, for instance), he can beat most martials. Low AC and HP are his only weaknesses on that front, but Dance of 23 Steps masterpiece can boost his AC (Fun fact: You can activate dance of 23 steps as a free action on your turn after you attack then stop maintaining it on your next turn before you attack and just repeat this trick every turn to avoid the attack/concentration penalties) plus he has all the usual wizarding attack avoidance (Blur, Mirror Image, and Displacement) and worst come to worst you can take a Toughness feat and/or put favored class bonuses into hp.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Bribri on March 01, 2014, 07:26:48 PM
On the note of ACG:Is Hunter really effective enough to be on par with the other tier 3’s? It’s the poor mans druid in a lot of peoples eyes but that’s comparing it to a tier 1 class; of course it’s going to be a bit behind! How does it compare to the likes of bard or inquisitor? It strikes me as at least red in that area, or even a Blue tier 4.

I will freely admit I’m more of a dabbler when it comes to pathfinder optimizing. Knowing enough to get by so I pose the question to you guys along with my thoughts.

Sure:It gets 0-6 casting which is the all season pass into the tier 3 bracket but do its actual class abilities compare?

Animal focus looks good at a glance, twice so when you consider it boosts its animal companion as well… but at the end of the day all it does is save you Gold; Gold that you were already short on since you’re shopping for two. As an enchantment bonus it’s just a replacement for the stat boosting belts, gloves, and fezs you’d normally buy allowing that money to go elsewhere. Assuming you’re in a game with any amount of downtime, a simple craft-wondrous-item feat will probably give you a comparable rebate wouldn’t it?

I mean really inspire courage will out do it at most levels fairly easily, and that -does- stack with enchantments, boosting the entire party on top of that. Though I will admit animal focus’s flexibility has a certain draw to it.

Then there’s the animal companion. We’ve all seen the complaints about those:Splits your magic item funds, stronger ones get in the way in cramped dungeons, scale poorly becoming fragile/weak at higher levels. Charge builds can be nasty but even the most basic issues with environment ruin them along with the above issues

Not to say it’s a -weak- class ability, quite handy in fact, particularly at low levels or low attribute games; but it’s always been more of a secondary thing… not one of the major draws of your class. Is the money you’re saving on animal focus as well as the bonus teamwork feats enough to keep it competitive?

Comparing it to another class again:Paladins, a (high)tier 4 class, arguably have comparable mounts. Sure those don’t get the money saving animal focus but they DO eventually get the celestial template which translates into damage reduction, elemental resistances, and a free smite. Not to mention the convenience of being able to summon it; a partial solution to the cramped dungeon issues. They’re still a little behind thanks to the lack of freebee teamwork feats but when you consider everything -else- a paladin gets… yeah it’s just not as impressive. Are the two additional spell levels alone enough to put them a tier above?

But what do I know? I haven’t gotten a chance to see hunter in an actual game after all so this is all guess work. What do you lot think?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on March 23, 2014, 02:52:17 AM
Honestly, between 6th level casting and Animal Companion, he's a Tier 3. It's not a good Tier 3, as it's really a Druid Minus the same way the Warpriest was a Cleric Minus, but it's still Tier 3.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Tsriel on August 27, 2014, 08:39:37 AM
The final version of the ACG (Advanced Class Guide) released on the 14th. While there were some minor revisions and changes here and there from the final playtest version to the final printing, I think the OPs listing still holds up. Of course, this isn't account for any of the new archtypes that released with the book for classes both new and old.

I think alot of them are pretty bad, but there are a few that are just flat out broken. (Looking at you, Spirit Summoner.) Which archtypes stand out to you?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Frogman55 on August 27, 2014, 10:20:40 AM
Not an archetype, but I've been really happy getting Arcane Deed and Flamboyant Arcana on my Magus. The constant level to precision damage is a wonderful boost. (Fun fact, as written the Swashbuckler's precise strike only requires that you don't attack with a weapon or use a shield other than a buckler. You can still attack with a spell.) I don't parry & riposte often, as the arcane pool doesn't recharge as easily as panache, but it is one more layer onto your defenses.

Also, I wonder if the Bloodrager shouldn't move up a tier. They've got a better spell list now, and the bloodline selections open up even more flexibility. They also have a reason to not dump Cha, and enough skill points to do something useful even if they do dump Int.

Worth noting: The Primalist archetype is nothing but a straight improvement over a vanilla barbarian. You give up 1 HP a level (d10 instead of d12), and trap sense, and get bloodlines, spells, blood sanctuary, and can still get as many rage powers as before (although you do need to wait 4 levels to pick two, instead of picking one every 2 levels).

I appreciate the Bolt Ace for gunslinger's too. It lets a player use the class even when you have an anti-firearm GM.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Mithril Leaf on August 27, 2014, 11:08:10 AM
The final version of the ACG (Advanced Class Guide) released on the 14th. While there were some minor revisions and changes here and there from the final playtest version to the final printing, I think the OPs listing still holds up. Of course, this isn't account for any of the new archtypes that released with the book for classes both new and old.

I think alot of them are pretty bad, but there are a few that are just flat out broken. (Looking at you, Spirit Summoner.) Which archtypes stand out to you?

I'm apparently missing something with Spirit Summoner, what's so bjorked about it? I mean, it trades one of the better not spellcasting class features in the game for the ability to get a spirit, most of which are not that great.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Endarire on August 27, 2014, 12:23:35 PM
For archetypes that change a class's tier ranking (such as from low tier X to mid tier X, or from tier Y to tier Z), can we have separate entries on this list?  JaronK had separate Binder entries when using the summon monster vestage (tier 2) and not (tier 3).
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: PsyBomb on August 29, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Exploiter Wizard manages to be even stronger than the base class, somehow. Not QUITE T0, but close.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on September 22, 2014, 04:12:07 AM
Brawler moved down to Tier 5 since Martial Master Lore Warden Fighter makes the Brawler look pointless. But at least Brawler 1 / Monk of Many Styles 1 is a great way to get Pummeling Charge at level 2. Moving Fighter up to Tier 4 thanks to Martial Master and Mutation Warrior mostly.

I do mention archetypes that change a class's ranking (such as Razmiran Priest Sorcerer).

Exploiter Wizard is damn strong, yes.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: linklord231 on September 22, 2014, 05:20:00 PM
I'm apparently missing something with Spirit Summoner, what's so bjorked about it? I mean, it trades one of the better not spellcasting class features in the game for the ability to get a spirit, most of which are not that great.

I wouldn't call it bjorked, but the good part of Spirit Summoner is getting Hexes.  The Life spirit in particular is good for a Summoner, and the Nature spirit is no slouch either. 
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Cyrocloud on December 15, 2014, 07:39:19 PM
So since the Occult Adventures playtest is out does anyone have opinions on where the classes are strength wise?

I was thinking the Kineticist is probably Tier 4 or 5 because they don't have much utility and don't really do that much damage unless you take damage yourself. I have no idea on the Mediums, their abilities interact differently and they seem to favor melee I think. So probably tier 4 or low tier 3. Mesmerists are probably low tier 3 or high tier 4 since they seem to be weaker less useful bards. Occultists seem pretty balanced and can learn up to 7 spells a level to cast spontaneously and a strong even if their list is fairly limited.  I'd probably guess it's tier 3. Spiritists are weaker summoners so tier 3 I guess, and Psions being the full casters of the book are probably tier 2 or low tier 1.

Also would the Primal Companion Hunter be a higher tier than a Hunter? It seems like a complete upgrade, and if your companion dies you become a synthesist summoner with a better chasis, you can even take the divine hunter archetype with it and gain a domain.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on May 08, 2015, 01:01:57 PM
when do you think you'll add the unchained versions?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: deadkitten on May 08, 2015, 11:40:51 PM
when do you think you'll add the unchained versions?

I'm probably in the minority, but I don't really see the unchained versions of the classes really changing their tiers.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: PsyBomb on May 10, 2015, 12:43:24 AM
when do you think you'll add the unchained versions?

I'm probably in the minority, but I don't really see the unchained versions of the classes really changing their tiers.

UnRogue, at the very least, moved up to T4 (or, at least, Blue category in T5). Barb and Summoner stay right where they were, Monk is... debatable.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on May 10, 2015, 12:24:32 PM
Was just curious,  haven't delved much into the Un's
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on June 20, 2015, 08:07:49 AM
Updated with un-tiers.

Also moved Rogue down to Tier 6 because I think "not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise" describes the rogue's sneak attack quite well (also their UMD, trapfinding, and skill monkey status). The Archaeologist Bard basically does everything the Rogue does more competently too.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Snowbluff on June 22, 2015, 10:37:01 PM
Huh? Is the Unsummoner still T2?

Wasn't the spell list (ie, their T2 abilities. Lost of Simulacrum and getting utility spells late is glaring) nerfed? Isn't the new eidolon dysfunctional (unarmed strikes count against max attacks)?

I think alchemist needs to be moved up. In terms of capabilities, it's not too off the mark from Summoner. They get a lot of the same abilities either through discoveries or ACFs. You can build one with beefy stats via mutagens, SNA, and Simulacrum.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on June 23, 2015, 03:31:21 AM
what about vigilante.... at least until updated
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on June 23, 2015, 09:25:14 AM
Huh? Is the Unsummoner still T2?

Wasn't the spell list (ie, their T2 abilities. Lost of Simulacrum and getting utility spells late is glaring) nerfed? Isn't the new eidolon dysfunctional (unarmed strikes count against max attacks)?
They still get a ludicrous amount of max-level summons to stomp all combats (with just a standard action instead of 1 round casting time) and obtain a massive list of skills/SLAs/etc. on demand (which are usable for the Summoner's party courtesy of the minutes/lvl duration), plus Gate, while still casting like a half-assed Wizard (except with inexplicable armor proficiencies and 3/4 BAB). That's the main reason why.

And the Eidolon really isn't dysfunctional. It's toned down, but it's still mainly an animal companion on steroids, and animal companions are already ridiculous. And honestly the ability to give an Eidolon 8 pairs of arms so he can pounce for 16 attacks with Multi-weapon Fighting in addition to his natural attacks was pretty ridiculous.

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I think alchemist needs to be moved up. In terms of capabilities, it's not too off the mark from Summoner. They get a lot of the same abilities either through discoveries or ACFs. You can build one with beefy stats via mutagens, SNA, and Simulacrum.
And with the Planar Preservationist feat you can obtain Summon Monster instead of SNA with your Alchemist, but your summons are more limited than any other summoner and you can't benefit from spellcasting feats and perks like Superior Summonings, Summon Neutral Monster, Greater Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) for Added Summonings, Metamagics, Robe of Gates, etc. I agree the alchemist is strong, but Tier 3 is not a weak tier either. Tier 2 is just the tier for people with nuclear options at their disposal. The Alchemist's bigger argument for going nuclear is that a Fast Bomb discovery coupled with TWF and Rapid Shot basically turns him into a 3.5 Flask Rogue on steroids capable of novaing most bosses to death in 1 round.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Unbeliever on June 23, 2015, 12:20:05 PM
Having built a few powerful Alchemists lately, I find it hard to think of them as being as powerful, Tiers-wise, as a Summoner or an Oracle or a Sorcerer.  The spellcasting firepower of the others is simply too much and too flexible, and the Summoner has the huge action economy advantage.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on June 23, 2015, 09:35:40 PM
The Alchemist also gets an action economy advantage in the form of infusions. Just getting a tumor familiar and decking it with Poisoner's Gloves gives you 2 free infusions at the start of combat without wasting a single action by having your familiar use 2 natural/unarmed attacks. The Planar Preservationist also gets ridiculous if he makes a ton of summon monster infusions and has his summoned monsters activate them to summon more monsters in a 1 round cascade of unleashing all your summons.

At any rate the tier list generally acknowledges that in the hands of an optimal player most classes will go up a tier or more and in the hands of a bad player they will go down a tier or more. Instead it goes with what a general competent player is likely to do with the class. The Bard is a good example since an optimized Bard is easily Tier 2 while a badly played Bard might reach Tier 5. In other words, tier lists can be total shit since they depend on the lister cherrypicking assumptions about default playstyle and closing an eye to some broken perks but not others. In the end many tier lists operate off of a lazy assumption of "prepared full casters are tier 1, spontaneous full casters are tier 2, 6th level casters are tier 3, 4th level casters are tier 4, really strong martials are tier 4, normal to meh martials are tier 5, and shit that plain doesn't work is tier 6."
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Unbeliever on June 23, 2015, 10:46:01 PM
The Alchemist also gets an action economy advantage in the form of infusions. Just getting a tumor familiar and decking it with Poisoner's Gloves gives you 2 free infusions at the start of combat without wasting a single action by having your familiar use 2 natural/unarmed attacks. The Planar Preservationist also gets ridiculous if he makes a ton of summon monster infusions and has his summoned monsters activate them to summon more monsters in a 1 round cascade of unleashing all your summons.

At any rate the tier list generally acknowledges that in the hands of an optimal player most classes will go up a tier or more and in the hands of a bad player they will go down a tier or more. Instead it goes with what a general player is likely to do with the class.
The Alchemist has several options to exploit action economy.  But, you're kind of just reiterating my point.  These are fairly sophisticated optimization tricks.  The Poisoner's Gloves is fairly cunning -- if a well-known trick by now.  The Summoner's action economy is baked into the class.  I contend that the usage of such things on the part of an Alchemist falls into the "optimal player, +1 Tier" methodology whereas  Summoner's action economy falls into the "duh, you're playing a Summoner" category. 

I can't really speak to how an Alchemist's summons stack up in their own right. 
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: TiaC on June 23, 2015, 11:07:21 PM
Alchemist with Potion Glutton (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/potion-glutton) might move up a tier. It's basically Battle Blessing for them.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on June 24, 2015, 12:26:27 AM
That's what my investigator uses, Potion Glutton.


Just curious why the paragon oracle and raz sorcerer are tier 1?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Snowbluff on June 24, 2015, 01:20:17 AM
That's what my investigator uses, Potion Glutton.

Infusion with your tumor familiar is better. "Here, monkey on my shoulder, inject me with this when the fight starts."

Selection of abilities isn't any different from spell selection. Simulacrum is effectively on the Alchemist Spell List. Discovery Selection isn't any different from a decision on whether or not to utilize the Eidolon.

Vivisectionist blows actual bomb use out of the water.

And yes, the new Eidolon IS dysfunctional. You have 3 of your attacks consumed over 20 levels by your BAB progression alone.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: linklord231 on June 24, 2015, 02:53:47 AM
Just curious why the paragon oracle and raz sorcerer are tier 1?

Paragon Surge Oracle because you can Paragon Surge to get any spell you want at a moment's notice (even off-list spells with the right feat choice) for Ultimate VersatilityTM.  This was FAQ-ratta'd to not work though, despite having no basis in the text for that ruling and also setting a terrible precedent for spells like Protection from Energy that allow you to change your selection each time you cast the spell as a matter of course.

Raz Sorcerer I'm not terribly sure about, but I think it's because the 9th level ability lets you buy a scroll of any divine spell in the game and basically add it to your Spells Known. 
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on June 24, 2015, 07:37:05 AM
Actually there was a FAQ "clarification" to restrict spell list poaching. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s54) They say that you can only add class spells to your spells known list, so you have to pick spells with overlap between the Oracle and Sorcerer now. Pretty sure the FAQ messes up a bunch of other stuff that uses spells known mechanic (Witch patron spells? Shaman human favored class bonus? More stuff too.) but that's paizo for you. You basically ignore this ruling for almost everything other than the Arcane Eldritch Heritage and maybe that too.

In other news your Oracle can still get wizard spells by using the Dreamed Secrets feat (technically this one gets broken too by the FAQ - still works for prepared casters - but the RAI is extremely straightforward), Spirit Guide archetype (for Arcane Enlightenment hex), Lorekeeper archetype, Lore mystery's Arcane Archivist revelation (losing the spell from your spellbook means nothing when you have a Blessed Book and maybe a Cypher Script feat and just write the spell in multiple times), Pathfinder Savant prestige class (6/7 PrC and spells are +1 level but mooch Summoner/Bard lists and you get discounts), Veiled Illusionist prestige class (10/10, no level penalty, illusion spells only, which includes shadow conjuration/evocation and simulacrum among others), Dawnflower Dissident prestige class (10/10 prc but first level is all you need to adds those wizard spells to your list - feat prereqs are troublesome though), Loremaster prestige class (dip 1 level for Secret of Magical Discipline feat), and of course the normal bonus spells and SLA revelations that the Oracle gets. The easiest flexible options on this list are Dreamed Secrets and Spirit Guide archetype for the Arcane Enlightenment hex. And then there's UMD. You can UMD items to cast spells as if they are on your class list but you can also just use regular scrolls and wands that way. As a matter of fact Pathfinder Savant is also good for this: it gives UMD as a class skill, lets you always take 10 at Pathfinder Savant 2, gives 1/2 Savant level bonus to UMD, and at level 3 lets you use your class casting level with scrolls/wands. Also, the Oracle can poach off-list divine spells through the Samsaran race's mystic past life. So in other words, that ruling really doesn't stop spell poaching at all.

Also the Oracle and Sorcerer doesn't need Paragon Surge to be Tier 1, since a Mnemonic Vestment (5k gp) alone will basically let him use a spellbook of his class spells and 1/day cast a spell he's got written down (get more robes if 1/day is not enough). But Paragon Surge still helps, and on-demand Spell Perfection or even Additional Traits for Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage (-2 metamagic levels) is quite good.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on August 29, 2015, 12:03:59 AM
Occult stuff yet? Of the archetypes, I'm curious about the ley line witch
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: stanprollyright on August 31, 2015, 07:53:46 PM
This is a great list! Thanks for posting (and updating)!

I'm gonna throw my opinion out there though that I think it's a bit unfair to put Core Rogue and Monk down on Tier 6 with the NPC classes. The way I understand it, Tier 6 is reserved for classes that simply don't work as intended because they are poorly written, or are NPC classes that aren't supposed to be for players to use. Swashbuckler is more of a Tier 6 in my mind, as it's a one-trick pony with a crappy trick.

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Rogue, Vanilla Monk, Unchained Monk (if no TWF), Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior, Commoner, Vow of Poverty Monk

(Emphasis mine). Rogue, especially, is getting a bad rep here. In 3.5 the Rogue was solidly Tier 4 because it was very versatile and capable of contributing SOMETHING, most of the time. The skill system revamp may have made the skill-monkey role less usefull, but Rogues benefit too by being able to spread their skills even further. In Pathfinder it's still the same old Rogue. Can often shine outside of combat, especially in a low-magic campaign, and can do OK damage in certain situations with sneak attack. Also has UMD on its class list. A Rogue can beat an Expert or Aristocrat or Commoner at its own game without even trying, and a decently optimized Rogue can often out-damage a Warrior with Sneak Attack. As far as synergy goes, Rogues are certainly MAD, but most builds tend to focus Dex above others. A Rogue wants Intelligence and Charisma, but doesn't really need them to function. Nor Wisdom, they just can't dump it. Plenty of builds find a way to make Strength irrelevant. I think all that puts them solidly in Tier 5. Unchained Rogue and Ninja are definitely better, but not a whole tier better. Unchained Rogue is basically the same with a few bonus feats. Ninja is a Rogue crossed with an even worse class, which somehow manages to synergetically shine a little bit in comparison. Neither can do more things than a Core Rogue, they're just slightly better at a few of those things.

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

I think that description sums up the Rogue (and all his variants) quite nicely. He can scout pretty well, but not as good as a Wildshaped Druid. He can find and disable traps really well, but so can others, and that ability is often not needed. He's got social skills, but the Bard or other Charisma class will outshine him. He's got UMD, but UMD isn't nearly as good as real spellcasting. He can have a good damage output with Sneak Attack, but it's very situational.

The Monk I'd say is a very low Tier 5, but still 5. Among the uninitiated Monk is a pretty popular class. I've played with a lot of Monks, and in an unoptimized, un-min-maxed party at low levels, the Monk generally proves to be useful as a secondary fighter and that athletic guy with no Armor Check Penalty who can hold one end of a rope and make a jump, climb, or swim check that the rest of the party would fail miserably. A decently optimized Monk should be able to outfight a Warrior 80% of the time while being more versatile as a scout or grappler or what-have-you on the side. It's not much, but it's both more powerful and versatile than an NPC class.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on August 31, 2015, 08:06:09 PM
Unchained Rogue is significantly better, it didn't lose anything and gained a whole lot (Dex to attack and damage ring a bell). It's at least a tier higher than the vanilla one.

The monk has lots of issues. Archetypes are a must to allow it to compete w anything. Yes, it's a million times better than the commoner, but it's still at the bottom. They can't have a dozen tiers. It makes thing easier w a bare # of tiers
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: stanprollyright on August 31, 2015, 08:38:36 PM
Unchained Rogue is significantly better, it didn't lose anything and gained a whole lot (Dex to attack and damage ring a bell). It's at least a tier higher than the vanilla one.

The monk has lots of issues. Archetypes are a must to allow it to compete w anything. Yes, it's a million times better than the commoner, but it's still at the bottom. They can't have a dozen tiers. It makes thing easier w a bare # of tiers

Unchained Rogue and Archetyped Monks are undoubtedly better. But Unchained Rogue gains what is effectively 3-4 free feats over a Core Rogue, making it slightly better at (and locking it into) a suboptimal fighting style. If that's a tier's worth of power, then fighters would be king. Monks are low in tier 5 in my mind, and archetypes can boost it to the mid-to-high ranges of that tier, certain archetypes might even be tier 4 on their own. They aren't significantly worse in comparison to other classes as they were in 3.5 (unlike Rogues, were tier 4). I'm just saying it's unfair to put them in the same league as an NPC class that lacks any class features whatsoever.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on August 31, 2015, 10:04:01 PM
They can only so many tiers... there's no 15th tier only for commoners because it sucks the most. The monk got thrown in that one, because it's the trashcan of the tiers

Dex to damage for free as a base class 1 is amazing. That in and of itself destroyed any idea of a std rogue for any reason. The unchained monk sucks, you can't give up those still crappy features for much better ones, due to no archetypes allowed yet. More versatile, but sucks.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: stanprollyright on August 31, 2015, 10:36:00 PM
I don't know much about Unchained Monk, I haven't looked at it.

There are several feats that give Dex to damage. Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, and Dervish Dance. And yes, Weapon Finesse and free Dex-to-Damage IS great. But not a whole tier great. It certainly doesn't reduce a Rogue to being a commoner. It just means there is a (slightly) better version available. A Rogue is still moderately useful most of the time, as opposed to not being useful at all.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: stanprollyright on August 31, 2015, 11:14:18 PM
The tier system represents a matrix of power and versatility, where the highest tier classes have both in droves and the low tier classes have neither.

I'm basing my argument off of this, from JoronK's 3.5 tier system:
Quote
Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

Okay, so, here we go.

Tier 6: A Commoner. Situation 1: If he's REALLY optimized, he could be a threat to the dragon, but a single attack from the dragon could take him out too. He can't really offer help getting to said dragon. He could fill up the entire cave with chickens, but that's probably not a good idea. Really, he's dead weight unless his build was perfectly optimized for this situation (see my Commoner charger build for an example). Situation 2: Well, without any stealth abilities or diplomacy, he's not too handy here, again unless he's been exactly optimized for this precise thing (such as through Martial Study to get Diplomacy). Really, again his class isn't going to help much here. Situation 3: Again, no help from his class, though the chicken thing might be amusing if you're creative.

Tier 5: A Fighter. [...]

Tier 4: The Rogue. Situation 1: Well he can certainly help get the party to the dragon, even if he's not totally optimized for it. His stealth and detection abilities will come in handy here, and if he puts the less stealthy people in portable holes and the like he's good to go. During the combat he's likely not that helpful (it's hard to sneak attack a dragon) but if he had a lot of prep time he might have been able to snag a scroll or wand of Shivering Touch, in which case he could be extremely helpful... he just has to be really prepared and on the ball, and the resources have to be available in advance. He's quite squishy though, and that dragon is a serious threat. Situation 2: With his stealth and diplomacy, he's all over this. Maybe not 100% perfect, but still pretty darn solid. An individual build might not have all the necessary skills, but most should be able to make do. Situation 3: Perhaps he can use Gather Information and such to gain strategic advantages before the battle... that would be handy. There's a few he's pretty likely to be able to pull off. He might even be able to use Diplomacy to buff the army a bit and at least get them into a good morale situation pre battle. Or, if he's a different set up, he could perhaps go out and assassinate a few of the orc commanders before the fight, which could be handy. And then during the fight he could do the same. It's not incredible, but it's something.

[...]

So yeah, as you move up the Tiers you go from weak, unadaptable, and predictable (that Commoner's got very few useful options) to strong, adaptable, and unpredictable (who knows what that Wizard is going to do?). A Wizard can always apply a great deal of strength very efficiently, whether it's Shivering Touch on the Dragon or Blinding Glory on an enemy army. The Sorcerer has the power, but he may not have power that he can actually apply to the situation. The Beguiler has even less raw power and may have to use UMD to pull it off. The Rogue is even further along that line. And the Fighter has power in very specific areas which are less likely to be useful in a given situation.


Rogue still has all the same options as he had before, but since Pathfinder skills have been amalgamated and skill traits are a thing, every other class has more options too, so by comparison he goes down a tier. But not 2. He's still not commoner-level useless.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on November 04, 2015, 05:27:38 PM
adding the occult classes?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on January 29, 2016, 11:52:28 AM
Hey, I'm back for now. To be honest I've kinda lost interest in PF (the design quality never really improves) and I think the tier lists have always been a bit of a crapshoot where tiers are a mishmash between an indication of a class's power and an indication of the level a class performs at under the average player. The Bard is a fun recurring topic here because depending on how he's played he can easily range from Tier 2 (I cast Glibness - Diplomancer ahoy) to Tier 5 (doesn't every Bard just spend his time in melee with a rapier using middling str and dex?) with severe outliers reaching Tier 1 (UMD/item/feat abuse or Legato Piece of the Infernal Bargain for Glabrezu wishes) and Tier 6 (My bard will just strum his lute and inspire courage).

Is it really worthwhile to make tiers for the new PF psionics?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on January 29, 2016, 12:57:35 PM
Id love to see it, but thats only if you WANT to.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on January 29, 2016, 03:17:36 PM
 :plotting or  :???

How many Tiers?
We know about i.p.proofing and 4e's hard math
and 5e has (supposedly) better math than that.

As a thought experiment, I was considering the
4e definition as a weird low end benchmark
for 3e classes :  +2 to hit, and >= monsters.

The basic underpinnings of monsters, are :
+3/4 BAB , d8 , 1 good save , 1 "medium" save
(which could be AC), 4 skills but limited list
and at least 1 more thing.

So now try to find classes that meet this hurdle (heh heh).
Commoner is horrible.
Aristocrat only has a chance right at the start, not even during level 1.

Warrior (it feels icky to say this) goes +1 bab right away
and gets the magic +2 bab at level 5, and it has good AC.
It has worst skills.  So overall it gets uncomfortably close
to the 4e-ish benchmark, but will eventually fail.

Anybody feeling this approach to "Bottom Tier" ?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on January 30, 2016, 11:26:16 AM
Okay, I don't really know Pathfinder at all, but isn't the Rogue/Ninja basically always getting Sneak Attack forever from Gaze of Flames or Fogcutting Lenses and the Obscuring Mist (or any other Cloud spell, or eversmoking bottle depending on how you read Fogcutting Lenses)? How on earth is that "Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise." or "Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well."

Full attack sneak attacks on pretty much every creature in the game was already kill everything in one round damage in 3.5, why is not needing wands to do it, and getting assured SA all the time from a lower level, and also whatever talents give you, somehow being bad at damage?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 01, 2016, 02:12:28 PM
You can still see 5 feet in fog/mist, so you can't use that to catch enemies flat-footed (unless you use ranged attacks). An Eversmoking Bottle should work with Fogcutting Lenses and would definitely work with Gaze of Flames or a Goz Mask. That's a good trick to remember. If you do that with ranged attacks, the Rogue would jump to a Tier 4 until he's up against blindsight. So I think this tactic works for the level range where you can afford those items but aren't up against enemies who can ignore them yet. I don't really assume most Rogue players would do that though since this is the kind of tactic that requires the entire team to carry the appropriate goggles/features to avoid being crippled. It is a very effective team strategy, however.

The main problem with the PF Rogue is that with the skill consolidation, removal of cross-class rank penalties, and doling out of trapfinding via archetypes and spells, the Rogue typically has no niche to speak of. Additionally the Quick Draw nerf heavily constrains the trickster approach to combat with alchemical items, scrolls, and wands, the removal of guaranteed SA with Ring of Blinking, the reduction in flat-footed conditions imposed by spells and items, the savage beating applied to Tumbling (all of these were targeted nerfs to ruin the rogue's viability) was made to ensure that a Rogue essentially had to flank and melee for his sneak attack with his 3/4 BAB, weak AC, and weak hit die while having to provoke AoOs when attempting to enter flanks and of course being unable to full attack whenever he takes a move action. Unless you get at least two attacks, you're not even going to match a fireball in damage while attacking a single target.

Beyond that the lack of a Penetrating Strike means that PF Rogues are rather worthless against those remaining enemies that are SA immune in PF. The ultimate conclusion is that the PF Rogue consistently underperforms in virtually everything he's supposed to do and lacks a compelling reason to be played at all, except for Trapfinding which can be freely archetyped into a lot of other classes.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 01, 2016, 04:27:46 PM
You can still see 5 feet in fog/mist, so you can't use that to catch enemies flat-footed (unless you use ranged attacks). An Eversmoking Bottle should work with Fogcutting Lenses and would definitely work with Gaze of Flames or a Goz Mask. That's a good trick to remember. If you do that with ranged attacks, the Rogue would jump to a Tier 4 until he's up against blindsight. So I think this tactic works for the level range where you can afford those items but aren't up against enemies who can ignore them yet. I don't really assume most Rogue players would do that though since this is the kind of tactic that requires the entire team to carry the appropriate goggles/features to avoid being crippled.

Yes, obviously you are going to use ranged attacks, since step 1 of Rogue optimization since 2000 has been "how do I get multiple attacks" and the answer for most of the last 16 years was "ranged full attacks" of course you are going to use range.

The main problem with the PF rogue is that with the skill consolidation, removal of cross-class rank penalties, and doling out of trapfinding via archetypes and spells, the Rogue typically has no niche to speak of.

...

The ultimate conclusion is that the PF Rogue consistently underperforms in virtually everything he's supposed to do and lacks a compelling reason to be played at all, except for Trapfinding which can be freely archetyped into a lot of other classes.

This reasoning is basically incompatible with Tiers. Tiers allege to be about what a class can do against challenges, as poorly as they do in fact measure that, it doesn't matter what other classes can do. The existence of the Lightning Warrior Class would not make Wizards drop to Tier 5-6 because "there is no reason to play them." They still do the things they do. So no amount of other classes being better (but Rogues also being better) makes rogues worse.

Additionally the Quick Draw nerf heavily constrains the trickster approach to combat with alchemical items, scrolls, and wands, the removal of guaranteed SA with Ring of Blinking, the reduction in flat-footed conditions imposed by spells and items, the savage beating applied to Tumbling (all of these were targeted nerfs to ruin the rogue's viability) was made to ensure that a Rogue essentially had to flank and melee for his sneak attack with his 3/4 BAB, weak AC, and weak hit die while having to provoke AoOs when attempting to enter flanks and of course being unable to full attack whenever he takes a move action. Unless you get at least two attacks, you're not even going to match a fireball in damage while attacking a single target.

Beyond that the lack of a Penetrating Strike means that PF Rogues are rather worthless against those remaining enemies that are SA immune in PF.

Actually, fuck the Quick Draw Nerf (I mean yeah, it's definitely a dumb thing that proves that Pathfinder devs are basically both idiots and assholes, who when shown they don't know how Rogues work immediately shit all over the example character for no reason except spite aimed at... an example character) but the main nerf was they also said you can't SA with splash weapons. Because Pathfinder devs hate being wrong about things. So yes, a Pathfinder Rogue has to use a Bow, and attack their regular AC from full concealment, instead of their Touch AC. That's a not insignificant nerf, but it's also the only one.

Nerfs to blink don't matter, because now you just use Bottles and accomplish the same thing for cheaper that is harder for enemies to bypass. Lack of Penetrating strike and Tumble nerfs are meaningless, because if you were actually using Penetrating Strike you were already a loser.

It's just like the things people said when they nerfed glitterdust "It doesn't matter if you nerf the best save or die each level, because you buffed the class, and then you write a better save or die in your splats anyway." They did the same thing for Rogues by nerfing Blink, and then turning around and making a better method of getting everyone always flat footed.

The remaining things that are immune to SA are traps and Elementals, and Elementals aren't immune to Str damage, so they can be beaten after level 10. I don't think "4 monsters that scale with level" is the end of the world.

TL;DR: Having to attack regular AC instead of touch sucks (unless you have guns! Hey, they did it again!) but it doesn't make them bad at doing craptons of damage, which they can still totally do, so in the Tier system, they really really really really really really don't belong on the same Tier with Commoner.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 01, 2016, 08:11:16 PM
1) What happens to your SAs when a critter is immune to ranged attacks (via wind, water, cover, etc.)? nvm this part

2) The reason they have to be compared to others is for a 'line' for the average ability to deal with various challenges. Otherwise, whats fast and whats slow? Rogue 1 will deal with the same issue as rogue 2 the same. But how does that compare to the others. Thats the point of the tiers.

3) shit happens, things get nerfed. Theres other classes that got hit by Quick Draw nerf

4a) Nothing should be on the same tier as commoner, but remember, tier 6 is the lowest rung. That's as low as you can go.

4b) what tier do you think it belongs in?


*** another note, some of the things you are saying, and they are written, sound angry to me. Don't get mad at us for helping you understand the ideas behind each class's ratings. Obviously, you aren't happy with where the rogue is... we'll hear your clean and reasonable arguments for changing things for the class.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 01, 2016, 09:59:06 PM
2) The reason they have to be compared to others is for a 'line' for the average ability to deal with various challenges. Otherwise, whats fast and whats slow? Rogue 1 will deal with the same issue as rogue 2 the same. But how does that compare to the others. Thats the point of the tiers.

a) No, it's challenges, not other characters. Unless you really are contending that writing the Lightning Warriors makes all other classes Tier 6?
b) The Rogue didn't get worse at anything he did relative to pretty much every other character. He's less better at a few minor things that no one really cared about anyway (skills) and he does slightly less damage against enemies with high flat footed non touch ACs (unless you have guns, then he does the same damage).

3) shit happens, things get nerfed. Theres other classes that got hit by Quick Draw nerf

I'm not sure what the point of this is? Do you have some sort of attachment to Pathfinder that somehow prevents you from admitting the obvious fact that Jason Bulman said it was impossible to make a ranged rogue that attacks flat footed touch AC and gets SA all the time, and then immediately after someone showed him how it works, he threw a fit and then Pathfinder coincidentally changed all the exact same things that he complained about when someone presented the build?

4a) Nothing should be on the same tier as commoner, but remember, tier 6 is the lowest rung. That's as low as you can go.

Yes, almost like people are just slapping rogue on the lowest tier without even reading the tier entries or thinking about the class at all.

4b) what tier do you think it belongs in?

Well I think that the tiers don't measure anything meaningful and aren't useful, but to the extent they purport to measure things, they have descriptions of what a class has to be like to end up in each tier.

So if I told you there was a class that does the most damage in the game, and can kill 90% of the monsters in one round if it gets a full attack from within 30ft, (Obviously some monsters can try to prevent this) which of these do you think that is:
"Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise"
"Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well,"
"Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise."

And there's your answer. (Except if you answer wrong.)

*** another note, some of the things you are saying, and they are written, sound angry to me. Don't get mad at us for helping you understand the ideas behind each class's ratings. Obviously, you aren't happy with where the rogue is... we'll hear your clean and reasonable arguments for changing things for the class.

No, you really won't. The defining characteristic of the Tiers is that anyone who makes a list will kill their own mother before admitting to making a mistake. I'm not angry, and you aren't helping to explain anything, because people have not presented a single cogent argument relating to the actual tier classifications, just "man rogues do some things better and some things worse, so they suck now!"
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 02, 2016, 12:34:27 AM
That was easy, I guess I only need to ask based on the last half of your post....

If you think the whole tier system is broken.... why are you complaining that the rogue is where it is and for what reasons?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 02, 2016, 09:12:53 AM
If you think the whole tier system is broken.... why are you complaining that the rogue is where it is and for what reasons?

Maybe for the reasons I stated in my last post... Nah... couldn't be that.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 02, 2016, 11:41:20 AM
Kaelik, moved the Rogue back up to Tier 5 for now. Now, Ring of Blinking beats the Eversmoking Bottle in that blindsight and the like do not constitute counters to it and that it does not require your entire team to invest in obtaining the appropriate feats/class features/items/etc to avoid being similarly crippled by the mist or smoke. The other reason why the Rogue and Expert moved down a tier is thanks to the new skill system. One of the distinguishing points of a Rogue's combat utility was in particular his ability to UMD magic items for desired effects. Pathfinder has trivialized the difficulty of obtaining UMD to the point where they not only doled it out to spellcasters wholesale but where traits (Dangerously Curious, Underlying Principles, Adopted->Bauble Fascination) and alternate racial traits (Fey Thoughts on almost all the Core races) will grant you UMD as a class skill and any class with a high charisma (like the Paladin, of all things) is now a deft hand at UMD even without making it a class skill and with the right trait (Pragmatic Activator or Clever Wordplay) you could even use UMD as an int-based skill instead. This diminishes a Rogue's niche in the sense not that someone can do the Rogue's job better but in the sense that everyone and their grandmother can do that as well as a Rogue or better and therefore it is no longer a perk of playing the Rogue.

The Rogue's status as a skill-monkey in general has also been undermined by the PF approach to skills.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 02, 2016, 12:52:41 PM
Now, Ring of Blinking beats the Eversmoking Bottle in that blindsight and the like do not constitute counters to it

Except that True Seeing and See Invis are counters to blinking, and those are substantially more prevalent and easier to get than Blindsight "and the like" by which I mean, just blindsight, because there are no other extra sensory modes that prevent enemies from being flat-footed at all.

One of the distinguishing points of a Rogue's combat utility was in particular his ability to UMD magic items for desired effects.

See now this, is an actual explanation. I mean, it's weird, because the only combat utility provided by UMD is wands of Grave/Golem/Plantstrike which the Rogue gets natively, because everything else UMD does is decidedly out of combat or absurd TO nonsense, but this at least counts as an explanation.

Of course, I'm not sure how not being able to do out of combat things with UMD makes the rogue somehow not capable of doing huge amounts of damage well, since it wasn't contributing to his ability to do that before either. So definitely wrong, but at least an explanation.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 02, 2016, 03:34:35 PM
If you think the whole tier system is broken.... why are you complaining that the rogue is where it is and for what reasons?

Maybe for the reasons I stated in my last post... Nah... couldn't be that.

could you please be a little less aggressivly abrasive? We dont need another Soro on the boards.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: phaedrusxy on February 02, 2016, 03:49:51 PM
If you think the whole tier system is broken.... why are you complaining that the rogue is where it is and for what reasons?

Maybe for the reasons I stated in my last post... Nah... couldn't be that.

could you please be a little less aggressivly abrasive? We dont need another Soro on the boards.
I guess you haven't met Kaelik before. ;)
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 02, 2016, 07:17:10 PM
Not that i know of.... i do remember Cyclone Joker, which Kaelik has some similarities to
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: NumberKruncher on February 02, 2016, 11:06:32 PM
After talking to two separate friends about how wonderful the gunslinger is, im surprised to see it so low. I guess it's because they're essentially a one trick pony, right?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 03, 2016, 12:41:21 AM
After talking to two separate friends about how wonderful the gunslinger is, im surprised to see it so low. I guess it's because they're essentially a one trick pony, right?

Don't know anything about Gunslinger, but they have Bolt Ace Gunslinger (whatever that is) as Tier 4. And technically, according to the Tier system, if you have a class that does 999999999999 untyped damage with no touch attack and no save to anything with 6 miles bypassing line of effect and line of sight, you could still never get above Tier 4.

I suspect that in placing Bolt Ace Gunslinger, they just arbitrarily noticed that one specific whatever was better than the others, and then shunted Gunslinger down a Tier for no reason. Sort of like how Wizard (Conjurer) and Wizard (Generalist) and Wizard (Transmuter) and Wizard (Necromancer) and Wizard (Illusionist) and Wizard (Enchanter) are Tier 1, but Wizard is only Tier 2...

I sure hope Bolt Ace is a 3rd party source or something, because otherwise the distinction doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Ice9 on February 03, 2016, 06:00:01 PM
I don't understand that one at all.  Bolt Ace is just Gunslinger but uses crossbows instead of guns.  From a quick read, it seems weaker than normal Gunslinger, since it has to spend Grit to do touch attacks.  Is this assuming some sort of spell-storing bolt antics?  Or is one of their deeds deceptively good?

Also, Gunslinger being below T4 to begin with is dumb.  By mid-level, Gunslinger reliably kills most things that aren't specifically made to counter them.  Far away?  Deeds for that.  Miss chance?  Deeds for that.  DR?  Feat for that.  High touch AC?  Good fucking luck, you're going against someone with full BAB + Dex primary + enhancement bonus; Monk, for example, is not nearly enough.

Even some of the specifically anti-gun spells/items are woefully insufficient - 3-4 more points of AC won't help when the Gunslinger would hit you on a -5.  And Bullet Magnets won't last a single round, even if you make them out of Adamantine.

So is the rating based on "with no items" or "not at all optimized" or something?  That doesn't seem very useful.


Edit: On further inspection, what is up with this whole list?  How is the Slayer's ability to "do a bunch of damage" and "be good at skills" a tier higher than the Rogue's ability to "do a bigger bunch of damage" and "be good at slightly more skills"?  Same deal with the Ninja. 

Also, not convinced Investigator is T3; yes, it has extracts, but I've never seen a build that was very impressive for it.  And Unchained Monk is not T6, come on; it may be a Monk but it can deal damage moderately well, enough to hang out with Fighter and Vanilla Brawler at least.  And some of the Monk archetypes reach T4.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 03, 2016, 07:59:12 PM
Also, Gunslinger being below T4 to begin with is dumb.  By mid-level, Gunslinger reliably kills most things that aren't specifically made to counter them.  Far away?  Deeds for that.  Miss chance?  Deeds for that.  DR?  Feat for that.  High touch AC?  Good fucking luck, you're going against someone with full BAB + Dex primary + enhancement bonus; Monk, for example, is not nearly enough.

Because what the Tiers purport to measure is absolute nonsense. As I said, if you instantly win every fight in the entire game in a single standard action from any range whether you are aware of enemies or not, whether they specifically design themselves to beat you or not, and whether there is a wall in the way or not, then you get Tier 4. If you are a level 10 character that casts 2nd level spells off "all lists" with a spells know limit of 2 per spell level you are Tier 3.

Because Tiers don't measure actual ability to deal with challenges, they measure number of things a member of that class could hypothetically do (even if no single character can do them).

Edit: On further inspection, what is up with this whole list?  How is the Slayer's ability to "do a bunch of damage" and "be good at skills" a tier higher than the Rogue's ability to "do a bigger bunch of damage" and "be good at slightly more skills"?  Same deal with the Ninja.

Because Tiers are based on the personal preferences of the people who make classes... Just ask the Factotum.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Keldar on February 04, 2016, 05:53:27 AM
Every class can play rocket tag, in which case who wins is just initiative.  Tiers are trying to be about versatility and the ability to break the game outside of the easily achieved damage spam.  They're a ballpark figure intended to help keep a party on a playing field level enough to make that part of a DM's job easier.  They have never been, and never will be an absolute.

You don't like them.  Noted.  No reason to keep arguing.  Weather anyone likes them is irrelevant.  They're all just opinion.  Man.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 04, 2016, 09:40:30 AM
Every class can play rocket tag, in which case who wins is just initiative.  Tiers are trying to be about versatility and the ability to break the game outside of the easily achieved damage spam.  They're a ballpark figure intended to help keep a party on a playing field level enough to make that part of a DM's job easier.

Or alternatively, the class that wins is the one that has the ability to shoot Rockets through walls, X-Ray Vision, and an Anti-Rocket Shield.

Tiers are about measuring hypothetical nonsense versatility, it's like versatility, but your character isn't versatile, but the possibility that you could have made a completely different character with completely different abilities means you are special nonsense versatile, even though you still aren't.

Also, no, not every class can play Rocket Tag, half of Tier 2 and 3 can't play Rocket tag at all.

Saying "You can't let a Summoner and a Gunslinger play in the same party because the Summoner is too versatile!" is super unhelpful, since 1) There is no possible reason in the universe for versatility to actually mean you can't play the same game as another more or less versatile class. 2) The Summoner isn't very versatile, 3) the hypothetical kill everything in one round from any range regardless of concealment Gunslinger is way more powerful, so if you did let them play in the same game, it would be the Summoner that felt bad.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Ice9 on February 04, 2016, 01:56:17 PM
Every class can play rocket tag, in which case who wins is just initiative.  Tiers are trying to be about versatility and the ability to break the game outside of the easily achieved damage spam.
That's what T1-T4 is about, but at T4 you've already hit "one trick pony" status.  The difference between T4/T5/T6 is merely how well the class does its one trick.  And Gunslinger does its one trick very well, therefore T4.

Whether that's a useful measurement is up for argument.  It is at least fairly easy to measure, compared to something like "expected performance against both tactical and strategic challenges over the course of a campaign", so I can see the appeal.

That said, I would argue that as far as the significant majority of games are concerned, "having good enough numbers in social skills" gives as much or more versatility/screen time/plot changing ability than having weak (anything less than Bard, amount or versatility wise) spellcasting, which most tier lists I've seen don't take into account. 
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Chrononaut on February 05, 2016, 12:39:38 PM
I dont' know if this is all the thought going into the realitive list, but I did have a thought on my way to and from the washroom about this.

"My Gun of Kill Everything should make my character higher than Tier 4! It does infinite damage to everything within 2 miles at will!"

T1: Wind Wall
KillGun: No it goes through that.
T1: Ok, Wall of Iron aligned so it's lengthwise between me and you.
KillGun: No, it goes through that too.
T1: Prismatic wall.
KillGun: Goes through those too.
T1: I'll go Incorporeal
Killgun: Its magical
T1: I'll Plane Shift to the shadow plane or something
Killgun: Its transdimensional
T1: Ok, Project Image
Killgun: Also, the bullets see through illusions
T1: Clone
Killgun: It uh, kills your clone when it hits you
T1: Familiar with revival scroll
Killgun: It kills your familiar too
T1: Astral Projection
Killgun: It kills you through that too! It's a goddamn sphere of annihilation on a stick okay!
T1: Scry and die you.
Killgun: While i'm using it I get complete immunity to magic that allows a saving throw or targets a single creature! Also I get a forbiddance effect around me!
T1: So you fire a 100% sure kill bullet that dispels or dissipates all magical effects, ignores all miss chances and completely undoes every defense against death a T1 caster might have that I've thought to name, and makes you always win initiative because otherwise I'll run.
Killgun: Yes!
T1: I'll use divination to find out when you're going to be within 2 miles of me.
Killgun: Aarrrgh!

So THAT ABILITY might be enough to move a KillGun up from tier 4 to tier 3? (And not the one the actual gunsligner has)  :P

Or is my little script totally off base?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 05, 2016, 01:04:22 PM
So let's start with:

1) You are contending that 8th level Wizard spells with a Material Component, or literally dying and having someone else to revive you counts as somehow not losing. Those are losses. Clone mitigates losses (XP, but not even gold, because they still get all your items). Dying and being raised by someone else is losing and coming back without items and down a level. (Unless you mean literally the spell that you cast the round after death, in which case, yeah, if you are standing right next to the corpse, he can shoot your familiar too).

2) You are contending that because a 9th level Wizard spell allows you to sort of survive the effect but lose the fight (Astral Projection), that this means the class is somehow not as good as Tier 3 classes that could never even get access to that effect at all.

3) Scry and Die only matters if you have defenses or attacks superior to the person you are scrying and dieing. Usually you accomplish that by slapping on all the short term buffs, if he still kills you the second you appear next to him in a single round, even when you are buffed up, then yeah, that didn't accomplish much.

4) Your ability to spend several divination spells to run away from someone hardly counts as a win at all.

5) Most importantly of all: It's not a fucking PC vs PC war. If a PC can instantly win every fight he's ever involved in across the entire campaign, then it doesn't matter if hypothetically a wizard could hide from him forever, fuck it, a level 17 Wizard can hide from anyone forever, you just Cast Mindblank every day while sitting on your own demiplane. This is literally the reason that Wizards are actually fine to have in almost any party, because casting Stinking Cloud or Solid Fog or Phantasmal Killer doesn't instantly win every fight, it just allows you to contribute to almost every fight as much as you are supposed to, but uber chargers who do 500k damage per attack are not fine to play with, because even though every single enemy could open up with Kelgore's Grave Mist on the first round of every combat (until they start Polymorph Any Objecting into an undead), it still dictates that the character is either the MVP who instantly wins the fight, or a piece of shit who does nothing.

As your X damage bastard scales up into bypassing more and more defenses (attack from range, always hits, bypasses total concealment, bypasses total cover and therefore can hit you through walls, can locate you through walls, ect.) it just becomes more problematic for the actual game.

It's why you can theoretically play a game with an Incantatrix, but not with a Tainted Scholar. The game ceases to function as soon as you can cast spells with DC 9999999. Likewise, the game ceases to function when you can do 500000 damage from a mile away ignoring concealment and cover. Because even if a theoretical Wizard could cast Divinations to hide forever, they can do that to any PC, and the Demons and Devils and other enemies you actually fight in the actual game are all going to instantly die.

TL;DR: The problem isn't that a super death class that instantly wins all fights ever should be ranked higher than Tier 4, it's that the Tier system alleges to help DMs figure out who should or shouldn't be in a party together. But Rogue/Wizard is a great party because both make the other one better and happy, and Hypothetical SuperMega Gunslinger shouldn't be prevented from playing games with Wizards because he will feel bad, if anything, the Wizard will feel bad, and meanwhile putting him in a group with fucking Rangers and Paladins and Barbarians and Adepts is going to make them feel like shit.

TL;DR the TL;DR: The tiers don't actually measure anything useful, and this is an example of why.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Chrononaut on February 05, 2016, 03:02:39 PM
So let's start with:

1) You are contending that 8th level Wizard spells with a Material Component, or literally dying and having someone else to revive you counts as somehow not losing. Those are losses. Clone mitigates losses (XP, but not even gold, because they still get all your items). Dying and being raised by someone else is losing and coming back without items and down a level. (Unless you mean literally the spell that you cast the round after death, in which case, yeah, if you are standing right next to the corpse, he can shoot your familiar too).

Oh, is this argument predicated on using items and feats exclusively? I'm sorry, I was given to understand it was a matter of class features. In which case yes, a well optimized gunslinger enjoying the benefits of her higher BAB and ranged feats will certainly triumph over a caster with a bunch of feats that work on class features he's not permitted to use.

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2) You are contending that because a 9th level Wizard spell allows you to sort of survive the effect but lose the fight (Astral Projection), that this means the class is somehow not as good as Tier 3 classes that could never even get access to that effect at all.
Actually this is the loss of maybe some of a day's spell slots for the T1. The Tier 4 loses their character in the event of the opposite occuring. Which is actually part of my argument that a T1 could, if they were allowed to use their class features, mitigate penalties for defeat to almost trivialize them whereas a T4 cannot.

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3) Scry and Die only matters if you have defenses or attacks superior to the person you are scrying and dieing. Usually you accomplish that by slapping on all the short term buffs, if he still kills you the second you appear next to him in a single round, even when you are buffed up, then yeah, that didn't accomplish much.
Scry and die could potentially include Time stop + Greater Teleport + <whatever dumb summoning combo you want> + Greater Teleport again. Time Stop is a buff that, as written, results in no harm being done to the caster while it remains up that your T4 doesn't get. Deal with it.

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4) Your ability to spend several divination spells to run away from someone hardly counts as a win at all.
"1. Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy."

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5) Most importantly of all: It's not a fucking PC vs PC war. If a PC can instantly win every fight he's ever involved in across the entire campaign, then it doesn't matter if hypothetically a wizard could hide from him forever, fuck it, a level 17 Wizard can hide from anyone forever, you just Cast Mindblank every day while sitting on your own demiplane. This is literally the reason that Wizards are actually fine to have in almost any party, because casting Stinking Cloud or Solid Fog or Phantasmal Killer doesn't instantly win every fight, it just allows you to contribute to almost every fight as much as you are supposed to, but uber chargers who do 500k damage per attack are not fine to play with, because even though every single enemy could open up with Kelgore's Grave Mist on the first round of every combat (until they start Polymorph Any Objecting into an undead), it still dictates that the character is either the MVP who instantly wins the fight, or a piece of shit who does nothing.
Firstly, anything a T1-2 can do, a monster that casts as a T1-2 can do too (dragons {who may be evil}, some angels, off the top of my head).

Secondly, many campaigns involve conflict against NPCs built in accordance to similar principles as PCs which may become antagonistic. Consequently a DM should know how to tune an antagonistic wizard/dark priest/sorceress (a classic fantasy trope) so as not to accidentally pancake the PCs... or produce a challenge so depressingly trivial the PCs wonder why the commoners that hired them didn't just do it themselves.

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As your X damage bastard scales up into bypassing more and more defenses (attack from range, always hits, bypasses total concealment, bypasses total cover and therefore can hit you through walls, can locate you through walls, ect.) it just becomes more problematic for the actual game.

It's why you can theoretically play a game with an Incantatrix, but not with a Tainted Scholar. The game ceases to function as soon as you can cast spells with DC 9999999. Likewise, the game ceases to function when you can do 500000 damage from a mile away ignoring concealment and cover. Because even if a theoretical Wizard could cast Divinations to hide forever, they can do that to any PC, and the Demons and Devils and other enemies you actually fight in the actual game are all going to instantly die.

TL;DR: The problem isn't that a super death class that instantly wins all fights ever should be ranked higher than Tier 4, it's that the Tier system alleges to help DMs figure out who should or shouldn't be in a party together. But Rogue/Wizard is a great party because both make the other one better and happy, and Hypothetical SuperMega Gunslinger shouldn't be prevented from playing games with Wizards because he will feel bad, if anything, the Wizard will feel bad, and meanwhile putting him in a group with fucking Rangers and Paladins and Barbarians and Adepts is going to make them feel like shit.

TL;DR the TL;DR: The tiers don't actually measure anything useful, and this is an example of why.

Anyways you can scream about how useless the tier system is until you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is that you're quite possibly the only person doing so, most people on this site attest to its usefulness as a guideline (I mean, it's a stickied topic, and it has weathered every single attempted refutation of it prior to this), and those that find fault with it largely do so in a matter of degree rather than conception.

But I mean, the fact that you've convinced no one in this topic yet just shows you've either not elucidated your argument very effectively, or else your argument is not a silver bullet in the Tier System.

Since you're arguing from a stance of the Tier System having already been refuted in your mind, you might not be properly explaining the logic chain that led you to that conclusion in a convincing way. Alternatively, if this is your first exposure to it and you find that it does not actually match your own personal experience, it is possible that you've simply not encountered circumstances that clearly and unambiguously demonstrate the relative differences in power of the classes in each tier, in which case you're special pleading.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 05, 2016, 03:41:42 PM
Oh, is this argument predicated on using items and feats exclusively? I'm sorry, I was given to understand it was a matter of class features. In which case yes, a well optimized gunslinger enjoying the benefits of her higher BAB and ranged feats will certainly triumph over a caster with a bunch of feats that work on class features he's not permitted to use.

Here, let me explain how this works in terms you still won't understand:

Level) Result:
1) Wizard dies and loses.
2) Wizard dies and loses.
3) Wizard dies and loses.
4) Wizard dies and loses.
5) Wizard dies and loses.
6) Wizard dies and loses.
7) Wizard dies and loses.
8) Wizard dies and loses.
9) Wizard dies and loses.
10) Wizard dies and loses.
11) Wizard dies and loses.
12) Wizard dies and loses.
13) Wizard dies and loses.
14) Wizard dies and loses.
15) Wizard loses the fight, Hypothetical Tier 4 accomplishes his goals, Wizard loses 1000gp and every single item he has on him.
16) Wizard loses the fight, Hypothetical Tier 4 accomplishes his goals, Wizard loses 1000gp and every single item he has on him.
17) Wizard's Astral Projection dies, Hypothetical Tier 4 accomplishes his goals.
18) Wizard's Astral Projection dies, Hypothetical Tier 4 accomplishes his goals.
19) Wizard's Astral Projection dies, Hypothetical Tier 4 accomplishes his goals.
20) Wizard's Astral Projection dies, Hypothetical Tier 4 accomplishes his goals.

If your strategy relies on an 8th or 9th level spell, it is not impressive. Because it does nothing at all for the entire playable part of the game.

Scry and die could potentially include Time stop + Greater Teleport + <whatever dumb summoning combo you want> + Greater Teleport again. Time Stop is a buff that, as written, results in no harm being done to the caster while it remains up that your T4 doesn't get. Deal with it.

Oh look, another strategy that relies on a 9th level spell to waste a bunch of resources and do nothing to the Hypothetical Tier 4....

Firstly, anything a T1-2 can do, a monster that casts as a T1-2 can do too (dragons {who may be evil}, some angels, off the top of my head).

Except for you know, the thing where they can't. For example, the lowest CR dragon even capable of casting Clone at all is CR 21. Timestop is CR 24-25. Oh noes, the Epic CRed Dragon that I can kill in one round can come back to life far away without a bunch of gold and items as long as they wasted one of their two spells known on Clone... I totally care.

Secondly, many campaigns involve conflict against NPCs built in accordance to similar principles as PCs which may become antagonistic. Consequently a DM should know how to tune an antagonistic wizard/dark priest/sorceress (a classic fantasy trope) so as not to accidentally pancake the PCs... or produce a challenge so depressingly trivial the PCs wonder why the commoners that hired them didn't just do it themselves.

And the Tier system doesn't do... literally any of that.

But I mean, the fact that you've convinced no one in this topic yet just shows you've either not elucidated your argument very effectively, or else your argument is not a silver bullet in the Tier System.

Uh... You are clearly delusional. I mean, yeah, it is almost certainly true that I didn't convince the two people who posted similar criticisms to mine in this thread, since they almost certainly had those opinions prior to this thread, but to claim that my failure to convince people is proof of the worth of the Tier system is really odd when two people have already expressed very similar criticism to mine in this thread.

Perhaps "most people attest to it's usefulness" because they were told it is useful and then harassed when they don't use it, and the ubiquity people refusing to talk about classes without phrasing it in tier terms has pushed it into the cultural perspective. Almost certainly you are overblowing it's worth because you happen to post on a forum that likes it, and are ignorant of forums that don't use it, or even think it's a fucking joke. I mean, you don't have to know about every D&D forum, but maybe you should consider the possibility that you don't know everything about what everyone else believes before you start relying on arguments from popularity.

Also, yeah... I would love to see an actual example of anyone ever using it as a resource that didn't cause me to laugh my fucking ass off at the stupidity of the person using it, like those people who allow uberchargers because "Tier 4" but ban all Wizards and Clerics, because evil bad Tier 1 can't play in the same game.

Or people who think Bards are useful for anything ever without stacking music from 18 sources to compensate for the fact that a Core Bard is literally garbage that you want to get the hell out of your party.

it is possible that you've simply not encountered circumstances that clearly and unambiguously demonstrate the relative differences in power of the classes in each tier, in which case you're special pleading.

Look kid, I know you want to feel special, but you could try reading what I've already said and then thinking, and you might learn a few things. The tier system does nothing to elucidate any differences in the first place. Hell there aren't any differences. A commoner can just buy a candle of invocation and wish for items that allow him to deal with all possible challenges all on his own. Anyone can do that.

It's special pleading to claim that you demand that some classes be allowed to do broken things, but not other classes. That's special pleading. Once you admit that every class in the game is capable of being literally so broken that the game is unplayable, and that every class is capable of being played at non broken levels, there are all sorts of interesting things you can say about classes.

You could talk about which classes are the easiest to build to a specific power level, you could talk about which classes are the easiest to play at a specific power, you could talk about which classes when built and played under some basic assumptions are the strongest or weakest.

The Tier system does none of those things.

But here, let's have a quick poll:

Fellow forum goers, Raise your hand if you think all classes that lose to a Wizard in an arbitrary 1v1 duel at level 17 (that the Hypothetical Tier 4 doesn't even lose) makes a class Tier 4...

Oh wait.

Raise your hand if you think that the Tiers measure a classes ability to 1v1 a Wizard... Oh wait.

Raise your hand if you think that Astral Projection is proof that the Bard and Warblade are better than the Gunslinger... Oh wait.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Chrononaut on February 05, 2016, 04:22:58 PM
All right, leaving aside that other debate since it was a mostly jocular thought exercise, let's simplify the matter, since nothing I've said has moved your position one iota, and nothing you've said has done anything to move mine.

Under what circumstances would you consider this tier list acceptable?

Actually, if I understand you right under your invectives, you think the tier list is not only useless, but so wrong as to be dangerous to uninformed players who read it. Is that correct?

If the answer is 'at no point in any conceivable scenario would I accept this', then there's no point in me (or anyone else here) trying to convince you otherwise and the forum should drop this argument.

I personally don't agree with your opinion, but if the consensus of other forumgoers is that JaronK is blowing it out his ass, we should probably unsticky the topic, at the very least. :D
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 05, 2016, 04:29:14 PM
Under what circumstances would you consider this tier list acceptable?

Actually, if I understand you right under your invectives, you think the tier list is not only useless, but so wrong as to be dangerous to uninformed players who read it. Is that correct?

Someone would have to:
a) Describe what the Tier list is supposed to be measuring in sufficient detail to not be completely vague nonsense.
b) Show how measuring that is useful in some way.
c) Demonstrate that the Tier list accurately measures the things it purports to measure.

Now, since no one has done that or even tried to do that in the last eight years, I certainly don't expect it to happen now, but that is what would be required.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 05, 2016, 06:49:49 PM
Except that True Seeing and See Invis are counters to blinking, and those are substantially more prevalent and easier to get than Blindsight "and the like" by which I mean, just blindsight, because there are no other extra sensory modes that prevent enemies from being flat-footed at all.
Blind-Fighting feats. Which is also doable by any enemy with the martial flexibility class feature. There's feats, features, and items that let people see through smoke or clouds as well. You also missed the part where this build requires the rest of the party to also invest in obtaining sight.

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See now this, is an actual explanation. I mean, it's weird, because the only combat utility provided by UMD is wands of Grave/Golem/Plantstrike which the Rogue gets natively, because everything else UMD does is decidedly out of combat or absurd TO nonsense, but this at least counts as an explanation.
Wow, you are bad at this. Wand of Obscuring Mist, Scrolls of Expeditious Retreat, Wand of Blistering Invective (if intimidate heavy), Scroll of Walls, Scroll of Summon Monster, Scroll of Stone Shape, etc. etc.

I don't understand that one at all.  Bolt Ace is just Gunslinger but uses crossbows instead of guns.  From a quick read, it seems weaker than normal Gunslinger, since it has to spend Grit to do touch attacks.  Is this assuming some sort of spell-storing bolt antics?  Or is one of their deeds deceptively good?
It's because Bolt Ace doesn't need to invest as heavily as a regular Gunslinger into making their weapon of choice functional. The regular Gunslinger is complete shit at starting levels. But come to think of it, Bolt Ace is probably still a Tier 5.

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Also, Gunslinger being below T4 to begin with is dumb.  By mid-level, Gunslinger reliably kills most things that aren't specifically made to counter them.  Far away?  Deeds for that.  Miss chance?  Deeds for that.  DR?  Feat for that.  High touch AC?  Good fucking luck, you're going against someone with full BAB + Dex primary + enhancement bonus; Monk, for example, is not nearly enough.

Even some of the specifically anti-gun spells/items are woefully insufficient - 3-4 more points of AC won't help when the Gunslinger would hit you on a -5.  And Bullet Magnets won't last a single round, even if you make them out of Adamantine.

So is the rating based on "with no items" or "not at all optimized" or something?  That doesn't seem very useful.
My problem with the Gunslinger is that he sucks a ton until he gets going and then all of a sudden he murders everything. And for the most part, his class features as a Gunslinger aren't really contributing to his power. That just comes from the gear, really. A Trench Fighter or Savage Technologist Barbarian would outperform that easily. Even without dex to damage, a Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Bloodrager, Sohei Monk, Slayer, Vigilante, etc. all do it better. Yes, the build is potent once it gets going, but the Gunslinger class itself contributes almost nothing. I'm not going to list Commoner as T3 or higher just because of WBLmancer builds either.

The biggest thing that makes the Gunslinger look so strong is that it strongly encourages you to abuse a highly potent combat option, but in reality you never needed to be a Gunslinger to do that, and you are probably worse off for picking that class to do a firearm build.

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Edit: On further inspection, what is up with this whole list?  How is the Slayer's ability to "do a bunch of damage" and "be good at skills" a tier higher than the Rogue's ability to "do a bigger bunch of damage" and "be good at slightly more skills"?
Eh, I wasn't too sure about the Slayer, but iirc it was the d10 hitdie, the added strong fort save, the full BAB, the ability to get attack and damage bonuses to targets, and his talent pool (which gives him Ranger Combat Style - ignores prereqs - in addition to bonus feats from Combat trick talent and Feat advanced talent). It's trivially easy for a Slayer to make a two-weapon throwing build that uses a Belt of Mighty Hurling, for instance. Simply put, the Slayer does not need Sneak Attack to ruin an enemy but he can and he will probably land more hits while he does it too.

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Same deal with the Ninja.
Ninja gets an extra attack and can give himself invis and greater invis as a swift action. Anyway, they're on Tier 5 now.

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Also, not convinced Investigator is T3; yes, it has extracts, but I've never seen a build that was very impressive for it.
It's probably a weaker alchemist, really, but it still has the Alchemist's action economy abuse and mutagens while adding half his level to attack and damage.

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And Unchained Monk is not T6, come on; it may be a Monk but it can deal damage moderately well, enough to hang out with Fighter and Vanilla Brawler at least.
Any decent Fighter picks up a Bow or goes TWF thrower and is actually quite effective while doing so. Archetyped Fighters get sillier. The Brawler easily performs a Flurry with Shuriken and if he does go for unarmed strikes, he can add the Brawling light armor property while collecting more attacks than an Unchained Monk. He also has Martial Flexibility to screw around his feats and keep him relevant more often. The Unchained Monk cannot compete well with that. In fact, his special Flurry of Blows prohibits him from getting bonus attacks with TWF (unlike the 3.5 Monk whose FoB the Unchained Monk is clearly mimicking). A vanilla Monk would perform better with shuriken by getting both a full FoB and a bonus attack through his ki pool. To get his style strikes the Unchained Monk needs to use unarmed attacks too. And the unchained Monk's melee still gets to choose between doing damage (str) or having AC (dex and wis). Class is still stupidly MAD.

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And some of the Monk archetypes reach T4.
Sohei and Nimble Guardian, aye. Not so sure about ZAM. That one feels more like a high Tier 5, competing with the Fighter.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 05, 2016, 08:06:07 PM
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See now this, is an actual explanation. I mean, it's weird, because the only combat utility provided by UMD is wands of Grave/Golem/Plantstrike which the Rogue gets natively, because everything else UMD does is decidedly out of combat or absurd TO nonsense, but this at least counts as an explanation.
Wow, you are bad at this. Wand of Obscuring Mist, Scrolls of Expeditious Retreat, Wand of Blistering Invective (if intimidate heavy), Scroll of Walls, Scroll of Summon Monster, Scroll of Stone Shape, etc. etc.

Ah yes, the old "I will spends tons of GP to spend my standard action (or full round action) to act like a Wizard 5 levels lower than me" Look, at any level, literally any level, that you are using a scroll of Summon Monster, you should just set that GP on fire and spend your actual standard actions on actually combat useful actions. If what you were going to do was worth less than Summon Monster of all things, then goddam, I can only imagine how pathetic that character must be.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 05, 2016, 11:50:28 PM
Ah yes, the old "I will spends tons of GP to spend my standard action (or full round action) to act like a Wizard 5 levels lower than me" Look, at any level, literally any level, that you are using a scroll of Summon Monster, you should just set that GP on fire and spend your actual standard actions on actually combat useful actions. If what you were going to do was worth less than Summon Monster of all things, then goddam, I can only imagine how pathetic that character must be.
Okay, so, you wanted to use an Eversmoking Bottle that costs 5.4k gp to smoke enemies (using a standard action) for your blind sneak attacks. However, when you spend 750gp to get the same basic effect by UMDing a Wand of Obscuring Mist (mind, you could get 7 fucking wands - 350 uses - before it reaches the price of your magic bottle), this is inexplicably "acting like a Wizard 5 levels lower than you" and you should set that GP on fire because man what a waste of gold and actions? Sounds legit.

Also, I have no clue why you assume a Rogue must be spending his money on spells below his level, but half the fun of UMDing scrolls is that you can outcast the Wizard with bullshit he's not getting his hands on anytime soon. You can afford a scroll of Summon Monster IX at level 4 for crying out loud. By the time you reach level 10, you can have your own personal collection of demiplanes made with the power of scrolls. Sure that's a little extreme, but it's very easy to get your hands on all kinds of crazy stuff, including spells beyond your current level, with UMD.

Just admit you have zero fucking imagination for scrolls/etc and move on.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 06, 2016, 12:04:58 AM
Okay, so, you wanted to use an Eversmoking Bottle that costs 5.4k gp to smoke enemies (using a standard action) for your blind sneak attacks. However, when you spend 750gp to get the same basic effect by UMDing a Wand of Obscuring Mist (mind, you could get 7 fucking wands - 350 uses - before it reaches the price of your magic bottle), this is inexplicably "acting like a Wizard 5 levels lower than you" and you should set that GP on fire because man what a waste of gold and actions. Sounds legit.

Or you know, an eversmoking bottle requires a standard action once, and then you just carry it around and get the effect without spending actions, Just like you use a Ring of Blinking once. I mean yeah, if you are UMDing a Wand of Obscuring Mist you are lighting a round on fire, if you aren't capable of building a character that gets SA every round, that's probably better than not getting SA at all, but it's way less impressive than spending that round Sneak attacking.

Also, let's be serious for a second, this is Pathfinder, items don't cost their listed price, they cost half of that. (Or at least wondrous items and scrolls that your Wizard can already cast, maybe not wands or staves or rings).

Also, why the fuck do you imagine a Rogue must be spending his money on spells below his level? Half the fun of UMDing scrolls is that you can outcast the Wizard with bullshit he's not getting his hands on anytime soon. You can afford a scroll of Summon Monster IX at level 4 for fuck's sakes.

Because doing that is even dumber. Let's see, you can either have a cloak of resistance and a Eversmoking bottle, or you can have.... A single use scroll that might win one fight for you (if you make the DC 47 UMD check).

For fucks sake really? This is exactly what I'm talking about, people love to fap to lighting all their gold on fire for incredibly unimpressive effects.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 06, 2016, 12:55:05 AM
You know, if you carry an Eversmoking Bottle around and leave it on permanently, as a GM I would be inclined to make you start rolling smoke inhalation fort saves (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/environment.html#forest-fires) unless you have a Necklace of Adaptation or the like.

Also, the UMD check is just DC 37 (and DC 24 if you don't have 19 int, but you can make UMD an int-based skill). At any rate that was not a serious recommendation. If you're going to cast 9th level spells at level 4, then just get Craft Wondrous Item and make Candles of Invocation and get a Gate for 4.2k, no UMD needed. The point is simply that there's no rule constraining you to casting scrolls of your level or below.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 06, 2016, 01:12:54 AM
You know, if you carry an Eversmoking Bottle around and leave it on permanently, as a GM I would be inclined to make you start rolling smoke inhalation fort saves (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/environment.html#forest-fires) unless you have a Necklace of Adaptation or the like.

You don't leave it on forever, but yes, you do leave it on for 16-32 rounds at a time, and take occasionaly breathing brakes when you are in the middle of a dungeon.

The point is simply that there's no rule constraining you to casting scrolls of your level or below.

My point is that there is no rule preventing you from wasting your money on stupid shit, but wasting even more money on even stupider shit is even stupider than wasting less money on stupid shit. At least when you were pretending to be the Wizard's commoner buddy who follows him around, you were getting scrolls at half cost, when you are trying to wish really hard you had Wizard written on your character sheet and that you were higher level, you get to waste twice as much money to wish you were a Wizard.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 07, 2016, 03:34:53 PM
Chrono and Power, why do you keep arging with Kaelik? Nothing we have said in the last several pages have even come close to moving him from his opinion. And vice versa, with his out there answers. I doubt anything else we say or try to elaborate on will do the same.

I guess one thing did happen... a reflection on a couple T4s going to T5.

Power, i feel your opinions on classes via the tier system are pretty spot on. The blue/red helped even more, since it basically tripled the potential tiers w/o complicating things.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kaelik on February 07, 2016, 05:07:39 PM
Chrono and Power, why do you keep arging with Kaelik? Nothing we have said in the last several pages have even come close to moving him from his opinion.

Remember, the only reason anyone could ever disagree with you is because they are unreasonable, it could never be because you failed to say anything meaningful.'

But yes, I laid down exactly what it would take for anyone to ever justify the Tier system, time to run away and never talk about it again.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 07, 2016, 05:24:50 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree on power's tier list is good or bad, hopeful or not.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Chrononaut on February 08, 2016, 08:26:47 AM
IDK, maybe if we re fluffed it as 'list of classes who need to spend the least to most on scrolls and UMD them assuming the campaign is a magic mart' ?
(that's a joke)
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on June 25, 2016, 03:02:07 PM
Any idea on if/when the Occult classes will be added?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on July 09, 2016, 08:27:05 AM
I'm busy finishing up the Shaman guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15637.msg275773#msg275773) right now. I'll get to the Occult classes in a bit.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on September 01, 2016, 12:25:22 AM
Vigilante?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on September 01, 2016, 12:41:00 PM
I'll finish it off this weekend I think.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on September 02, 2016, 06:06:52 PM
here  (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18z70ARGsGF92VbV0Ithx_4PpwTQXDqUw0Ph1UvqLfVU/edit) is a very up to date handbook
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Blightersbane on September 07, 2016, 12:35:43 PM
I found unchained monk, with qinggong ki-spells versatile and fun to play...something that probably hasnt been said of the monk before. The unchained monk is IMO, a tier 4.

BB

Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on May 20, 2017, 04:59:56 PM
Way overdue but I made tiers for occult classes and vigilante.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on May 22, 2017, 03:18:40 PM
Derp, saw that the spellcasting ones got their own tier. And the rest are pretty comparable to their core counterparts.

Edited
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on May 22, 2017, 09:10:46 PM
The weirdest entry on my list had to be the Medium. It's a 4th level caster by default but it can also cast as either a 6th level Wizard or a Cleric depending on the day, but once it hits level 17 it can cast any Wizard spell or a Cleric miracle once per day. This is a fairly Tier 1 ability. Spellcasting as a Wizard though makes him an arcane caster which means he is vulnerable to arcane spell failure due to what was most likely an oversight. And before level 11 he can only cast 1 spell of every rank (but he gets to switch around which spells that would be).

The Psychic is a rather weak spellcaster overall, and in fact there's generally no good reason to play him over a cross-blooded psychic + draconic (esoteric) sorcerer with Paragon Surge, except the Psychic does get the mnemonic esoterica power which is hideously overpowered due to giving the Psychic access to a spell of his choice per day, from all the spell lists (including discounted lists). It doesn't even get the level penalty that the Pathfinder Savant and Daivrat prestige classes contribute. Other than that, the Psychic does gain access to Summon Monster for some inexplicable reason, but its 1 round cast time and emotion + thought components make it incredibly easy to disrupt. I'm not even sure if the Psychic can cast it defensively with that +10 DC to concentration checks. I suppose the Psychic should just equip a tower shield and plate armor and cheese AC to be safe, since there's no psychic spell failure chance, but the Psychic should probably invest in a high Stealth modifier so it can just summon monsters while invisible or otherwise hidden.

Meanwhile the Shaman is an incredibly powerful spellcaster once you get Arcane Enlightenment working and use the favored class bonus to add Cleric spells to his list. Sure the Shaman's own list isn't that impressive, but between spirits, Arcane Enlightenment, and the Cleric list he suddenly becomes an incredibly potent spellcaster when played right.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on May 23, 2017, 12:51:32 AM
I never actually understood the medium.

My experience with the occultist was rough, a very strange and poorly built class, IMO. The spellcasting ability is ridiculously limited.

Yeah, the psychic's spell list is a huge disappointment.

Played a mesmerist and loved it, felt very versatile with casting, rebuffs, and being a face.

Id Rager Bloodrager should be high 3 or low 4, at least. Swaps bloodline for all the abilities of a phantom when bloodraging, except incorp. This includes running through walls, all the emotion abilities, DR, even bonuses from the table (ability increases, etc.) Oh, and rageable psychic spellcasting.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on May 27, 2017, 01:52:30 AM
If you play a Rebirth discipline Psychic and prestige into Veiled Illusionist and Pathfinder Savant (esp. with the new Prestigious Caster feat) and/or play a Samsaran Psychic with Mystic Past Life he's a rather powerful spellcaster, but his own spell list is rather bad yes. I think you can also make it work with the Shadow discipline if you put Preferred Spell feats on the shadow domain spells so you can use them more than once per day (and freely put Tenebrous Spell metamagic on them) and run it as a shadowcaster, but Rebirth discipline is by far the best for rounding out the Psychic's spells.

As for the Id Bloodrager, psychic spellcasting is more of a drawback than boon to bloodrager casting. Now the bloodrager has to deal with +10 to concentration DCs unless he centers himself and if he is ever under any emotion descriptor ability (like someone just rolling the intimidate skill on the bloodrager), he can't cast at all. Unless you're taking the Pride emotional focus and cheesing your attack rolls so they never miss, psychic spellcasting is much more of a weakness than benefit for bloodragers. The two big perks I see are the ability to run through walls and collecting DR. But the DR looks more impressive than it is, since DR/slashing and DR/magic are very easily overcome, and the standard Invulnerable Rager Barbarian typically has it much better. Ultimately the only truly special perk I see is running through walls, which is not enough to elevate it to a T3 in my book, and in general a party can just get a pickaxe if you want to dig through walls.

The only 4th level caster (Medium does not count, since it is a 6th level caster with the spellcasting spirits) that might be a T3 is a Sacred Servant Paladin with Oath of Vengeance (which converts the Sacred Servant's extra lay on hands into more smite evil to cover for the reduced progression). But that's mostly a T3 whenever the planar ally is used, which in turn also depends on how long you can keep an ally hanging around before the GM considers it an unreasonable request (if you're on a save-the-world quest though even regular planar allies would stick around just fine). At other times, it depends on a decent domain (adding UMD and Unsanctioned Knowledge helps a lot too), in which case this mainly feels like one of those cases where a more skilled player is able to get a class to shift up a tier rather than lending itself to a higher tier by default.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: ImperatorK on May 27, 2017, 08:09:51 PM
If I missed an answer then sorry, but I'm curious if Path of War classes will be added, or not since they're 3pp?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: TheJerkStore on July 02, 2017, 08:35:58 PM
I mostly agree with tier 3 and up, I'm not sure I'd have the same in the lower tiers.  Unchained Monk deserves a tier 5 as it does one thing very well (deal melee damage) and gets some utility (flight, etherealness, etc), and I feel that regular monk deserves at least a blue 6/red 5.  I'd also bump Vigilante up to 4, it's a surprisingly versatile class.  But that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on July 02, 2017, 11:14:08 PM
I think only the casting vigilantes could be 4s.

Maybe bump the casting investigators to a blue 3? Casting is much more versatile than alchemy
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: TheJerkStore on July 03, 2017, 11:33:59 PM
I think only the casting vigilantes could be 4s.

Maybe bump the casting investigators to a blue 3? Casting is much more versatile than alchemy

There's casting investigators?  I'm not aware of such, mind pointing me in the right direction?  There's a lot of Pathfinder stuff and it's hard to search sometimes. 

Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on July 03, 2017, 11:51:34 PM
Psychic Detective (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo-investigator-archetypes/psychic-detective-investigator-archetype/)

Questioner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo-investigator-archetypes/questioner-investigator-archetype/)

There is no link for most of the investigator archetypes, which is annoying.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on July 24, 2017, 02:56:46 PM
I mostly agree with tier 3 and up, I'm not sure I'd have the same in the lower tiers.  Unchained Monk deserves a tier 5 as it does one thing very well (deal melee damage) and gets some utility (flight, etherealness, etc), and I feel that regular monk deserves at least a blue 6/red 5.  I'd also bump Vigilante up to 4, it's a surprisingly versatile class.  But that's just my opinion.
Moved Unchained Monk to Tier 5. Disagree with Vigilante as T4. Vig appears to be either T5 or a 6th level spellcaster, depending on the archetype. I'd sooner play a Fighter with his regular feats dumped into social feats than a vig I think.

I think only the casting vigilantes could be 4s.
I think they're more T3s.

Quote
Maybe bump the casting investigators to a blue 3? Casting is much more versatile than alchemy
I'm not really inclined to make a separate note of archetypes unless there's a full tier shift.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on July 25, 2017, 09:28:50 PM
makes sense
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: God Wizard on December 01, 2017, 12:41:14 PM
Well, it's no debate that the new Shifter class is terrible.   Would red T5 or T6 be a reasonable spot for it?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on December 01, 2017, 10:11:34 PM
Red 5 seems about right. Very underwhelming
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Blue Rose on January 03, 2018, 02:51:08 PM
I'm more interested in the placement of the Hunter.  I haven't looked at it closely, but it seems more viable than the Shifter.

So sad they botched Shifter like they did.
If I missed an answer then sorry, but I'm curious if Path of War classes will be added, or not since they're 3pp?
That sounds beyond the scope of this list, but it's a perfectly legitimate topic for its own thread!  It's something I'm interested in opinions on, myself, for Paths of War, psionic, and sphere classes.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: snakeman830 on January 03, 2018, 03:05:19 PM
I'm more interested in the placement of the Hunter.  I haven't looked at it closely, but it seems more viable than the Shifter.

So sad they botched Shifter like they did.
If I missed an answer then sorry, but I'm curious if Path of War classes will be added, or not since they're 3pp?
That sounds beyond the scope of this list, but it's a perfectly legitimate topic for its own thread!  It's something I'm interested in opinions on, myself, for Paths of War, psionic, and sphere classes.

From what I'm experiencing of the Aegis class (psionics) I would put it as a solid Tier 4, possibly low Tier 3, depending on how many power stones you can get access to.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on January 03, 2018, 05:39:04 PM
If they are added, maybe use a different color for them, like dark green or something
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Blue Rose on January 03, 2018, 09:19:45 PM
Or perhaps italicized?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Masakan on January 16, 2018, 03:37:13 AM
Honestly the more I look at the magus and the war-priest the more I feel their position is a little.....undeserved. Do i think they should be higher then tier 3? Fuck no. That was accurate, but i do think they deserve to be more on the Blue end then the red.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: God Wizard on January 16, 2018, 09:38:55 PM
The Warpriest is red 3, because it uses the Cleric's spells with as a 2/3 caster... without actually adjusting the spell levels.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Masakan on January 17, 2018, 08:46:05 AM
The Warpriest is red 3, because it uses the Cleric's spells with as a 2/3 caster... without actually adjusting the spell levels.

But at the same time the cleric's spell list is such a mishmash, that there are spells on said list that are borderline useless on a cleric, that are amazing on a warpriest. Prime example would be blood crow strike
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 01, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
If you're interested in giving input, paizo is already considering several tweaks on making the shifter better here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uuob?Changes-to-the-Shifter)
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: God Wizard on February 08, 2018, 07:53:10 PM
If you're interested in giving input, paizo is already considering several tweaks on making the shifter better here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uuob?Changes-to-the-Shifter)

The quality of life updates may get it out of the red zone, but I doubt the it'll leave T5.  Probably won't even reach blue.  I honestly can't understand what the fuck Paizo was thinking with this class.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 13, 2018, 05:17:37 AM
Here (http://comicbook.com/gaming/amp/2018/02/08/dungeons-and-dragons-old-spice-/) is a newly released PFS class by Old Spice..... no, you read that correctly..... Old..... Spice....
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Blue Rose on February 14, 2018, 01:16:20 AM
But more importantly, what tier is it?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 14, 2018, 04:42:53 AM
Blue tier 1 all the way, makes a Wizard seem like a quadriplegic VoP Monk
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 14, 2018, 10:40:40 AM
I added Shifter as a red T4 for now. Reason being that the Shifter gets pounce at level 4 and later collects iteratives on top of his large number of natural attacks. If you don't make use of that, you are either outright bad at the game or playing Ape Shifter for large size and reach builds. The Shifter's AC, size, and minor aspect bonuses also help slightly, as does the Planar Wild Shape feat, although the spell resistance will hurt when it comes to party buffs, unless your casters have bonuses to caster level checks and/or overcoming spell resistance.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Blue Rose on April 14, 2018, 11:59:04 PM
Anyone got thoughts on the Vampire Hunter?

Seems like a shitty Ranger, but it does get some toys.  Maybe red T4?  Do we have a title holder for worst technically-still-a-caster in the game?  Or is there some pearl in therre I'm missing that makes them decent?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on July 04, 2018, 01:16:57 AM
New possible worst archetype ever, from Distant Realms

Quote
Quintessentialist
(Spiritualist Archetype)
When the pressure to grow wars with a personal need
for simplicity, a mortal soul can split between extremes,
creating two half-beings that rely on one another to
survive. The quintessentialist learns to project her
best self—her exemplar—as an independent being,
but in doing so leaves only the weakest and basest
aspects behind in her body.
Unfocused Spellcasting: A quintessentialist’s sheared
mind has difficulty focusing on even the simplest spells.
All of her spells have a minimum casting time of 1
round, even if casting a spell would normally take less
time, such as a standard action.
Exemplar: Instead of bonding to the phantom of a
dead soul, a quintessentialist forges her best qualities
into a spiritual aspect called an exemplar, which
resides in her subconscious mind at
all times rather than on the Ethereal
Plane. An exemplar uses the
quintessentialist’s
ability scores when
fully manifested
rather than those of
a standard phantom,
but otherwise advances as a phantom. The exemplar can
cast any of the spiritualist’s spells while fully manifested,
sharing the same spells known and spell slots, and
does not suffer from the quintessentialist’s unfocused
spellcasting ability.
A quintessentialist can fully manifest her exemplar as
a full-round action rather than a 1-minute ritual, and she
can dismiss it back into her mind as a standard action.
When fully manifested, a quintessentialist can transfer
any equipment she is currently wearing or carrying to
her exemplar, allowing it to manifest with weapons,
armor, and other equipment, but doing so removes these
possessions from the quintessentialist. She can likewise
grant her exemplar any feats she knows, losing access to
those feats herself while the exemplar
remains fully manifested. Projecting
an exemplar is draining, however. A
quintessentialist cannot cast any spells
herself and she takes a –2 penalty to
all ability scores while her exemplar
is fully manifested. Every round the
exemplar remains fully manifested,
the quintessentialist takes 1d6
points of damage; this damage
cannot be reduced or prevented
in any way.
This alters phantom.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on July 31, 2018, 05:58:43 PM
Anyone got thoughts on the Vampire Hunter?

Seems like a shitty Ranger, but it does get some toys.  Maybe red T4?  Do we have a title holder for worst technically-still-a-caster in the game?  Or is there some pearl in therre I'm missing that makes them decent?
Its spell selection is basically Paladin minus, except it gets bonus feats much like a Fighter and Vampiric Focus gives it a few more perks (evasion, deflection bonus to AC, charm person, brief bonus to perception and stealth). It's a straight T4. I'd favor a Paladin on the whole, but the Vampire Hunter is a potent martial. If not for the lack of an animal companion, I'd say it's still better than a Ranger. I reckon it's actually the Ranger that has the worst spell selection of all classes (with the exception of the Prophet of Kalistrade prestige class). Amusingly Rangers make better vampire hunters than the Vampire Hunter though. Favored Enemy (Undead) ftw.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on April 07, 2019, 12:54:36 PM
Wondering if Hunter should go down to blue T4 honestly. It's basically a 3/4 BAB martial with 6th level spellcasting but no discounted spells and a rather limited spell selection. Divine Hunter + Primal Companion Hunter is definitely a T3 though. Warpriest is also a bit questionable. It's mostly the high-level summons from blessings that give it versatility. Otherwise it's essentially a martial.

Moving Bard and Skald up to T1 if they use this masterpiece:
Quote
MUSIC BEYOND THE SPHERES (DANCE, SING, STRING)
Source Horror Realms pg. 8
You use your own life force to create a phantasmagorical impression of eldritch vibrations with your wild, flailing dance and erratic tones. The performance unravels and remakes the fabric of reality around you according to your designs.

Prerequisites: Perform (dance, sing, or string) 13 ranks.

Cost: Feat or 5th-level bard spell known.

Benefit: When you enact this unnerving bardic performance, you take 2 points of Constitution drain or 2 points of Wisdom drain (your choice) to create an effect similar to limited wish, except that the effect is interpreted by an alien entity of the Dark Tapestry. If you have at least 17 ranks in Perform (dance, sing, or string), and you destroy a magic or technological item worth at least 25,000 gp as a material component and take 4 points of Constitution drain or Wisdom drain, you can instead produce the effects of a wish with this performance. The GM interprets how precisely the effects of this bardic performance are granted by the entity that you contact. This performance has audible and visual components.

Use: 1 round of bardic performance.

Action: 1 full round action.

At level 13 a Bard has over 30 rounds of bardic performance, making this super spammable. Wisdom drain is a mildly hindering factor except given that you can just Limited Wish for a Restoration (which is a material component costing under 1000gp, making it free for Limited Wish) and reset your ability drain, I don't think it matters. The Bard can just make ludicrously large amounts of free limited wishes and can even just make full-blown wishes for 25k gp at level 17.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on April 07, 2019, 02:45:18 PM
Quote
remakes the fabric of reality around you according to your designs.
Quote
the effect is interpreted by an alien entity of the Dark Tapestry.

Editing? What's that?

Vigilante absolutely deserves tier 4 if Slayer is tier 4 and Fighter is better than average tier 5. Fighter, even an archetype that gets skill points, can't select social things as feats and good Vigilante Talents are better than feats. Even if you just choose Combat Skill every time you're still ahead of a fighter, bar Weapon Training, and you still get all the social talents.

Aether Kineticist is probably tier 3. TK is very versatile in and out of combat. They struggle in social situations, but even a good number of firmly tier 3 do that.

Sacred Servant Paladin probably makes the leap to tier 3 or tier 2 if their deity's Planar Ally is good. Especially so with Oath of Vengeance since the two cancel out eachothers weaknesses. Antipaladin is tier 2, or a very high tier 3, as soon as it gains access to a permanent duration succubus companion. Even a Babau would make them tier 3.

Simulacrum discoveries make an Alchemist as tier 1 as Music Beyond the Spheres makes a Bard tier 1 since Simulacrum can build wish factories. Better actually, since there is no Great Old Ones warping your wishes.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on April 07, 2019, 10:08:03 PM
They wouldn't be paizo if they had decent editing.

As for the Slayer, it was a questionable T4 to begin with. It's mostly Ranger Combat Style + Combat Trick + Feat + Studied Target + sneak attack that did that. The Slayer can do some decent sneak attack damage while still being a potent martial without it. Later on the Barroom Brawler feat (or just a Brawler dip) will even let the Slayer give himself Seething Hatred to his pick of favored enemies and double his Studied Target bonus. There's also his ability to Assassinate enemies. If you add Studied Target and Seething Hatred, he gets an extra +6 to DC at level 10 (making it DC21+intmod). Vig on the other hand has to choose between sneak attack and full BAB+combat feats and has worse attack and damage bonuses than the Fighter unless he uses Take 'Em Alive (does not work against a host of enemies with nonlethal immunity or nonlethal DR) or Major Magic (costing 2 combat talents) for Divine Favor (add Fate's Favored trait for another +1 bonus), and the fighter can get advanced weapon training too. If Vig gets Take 'Em Alive (meaning non-PFS) then the Fighter can get Weapon Spirit and Armor Specialization advanced trainings. What the Vig does get on the default Fighter is Mad Rush (the ability to pounce while taking an extra -4 to AC), evasion, a few more efficient feats, and a bunch of social skills, but any decent fighter tends to go full archery and if a Fighter wants pounce the Dawnflower Dervish and Viking archetypes can provide it. The short of it is: I think the Vig is a worse martial than the Fighter. What remains are the Vig's social talents. He gets great bonuses to disguise and other than that he's mostly got +4 to a few social skills (you can slightly cheese this with a Wisdom in the Flesh trait to make a physical skill into a wis-based skill), +4 to knowledge skills, the ability to take 10, and 6 skills/lvl. I'm not sure if those skill monkey perks elevate it to a T4.

How does a simulacrum build wish factories?

Hunter moved down to T4. Slayer marked red. Sacred Servant + Oath of Vengeance listed as T3 now. I don't think Antipaladin gets access to Sacred Servant, as it's technically considered a separate class.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on April 08, 2019, 01:46:33 AM
Thoughtful Wishmaker (https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Thoughtful%20Wish-Maker)
Quote
Thoughtful Wish-Maker (Regional: Plane of Air) {Blood of the Elements 23}: You are well acquainted with the many ways words can be twisted. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Sense Motive checks. Furthermore, if you succeed at a DC 25 Sense Motive check prior to making any wish granted by an outsider, you become aware of your wish’s potential pitfalls. If you succeed at this check by 5 or more, you figure out how to word your wish in such a way that your words are not twisted.

Make sure you don't drop too low of a Wisdom to affect making the DC by 5+, or use versatile Performance instead.

Even if it was available, the antipaladin doesn't have the necessary abilities to swap (smite evil, divine bond, and aura of resolve)
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on April 08, 2019, 02:33:06 PM
That trait doesn't actually work for this. An "alien entity of the Dark Tapestry" is an aberration (or rarely a magical beast), not an outsider, and that trait only works with a "wish granted by an outsider".

I meant that base Antipaladin is a tier 2 in general once it gets to a high enough level (11) for a succubus companion, not that Sacred Servant Antipaladin is tier 2. Getting a succubus companion is one of their base abilities (Fiendish Boon).

Quote
How does a simulacrum build wish factories?
Seriously? Making a simulacrum of a creature capable of granting wishes is one of the oldest 3E tricks in the book.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on April 09, 2019, 09:21:02 AM
Huh. So Alchemists can make simulacra of other creatures. I'm used to their powers being self-focused. At any rate I tend not to consider that T1 for the same reason I didn't put Bards up in T1 before for being able to abuse free Glabrezu wishes with Legato Piece of the Infernal Bargain and why JaronK didn't just put every class with Planar Binding and Simulacrum abilities in T1 on his list. That's more of a very deliberate T1 optimized play whereas the tier list operates off of an assumption of a general level of competence without game-breaking intent.

How exactly does the Succubus companion raise the Antipaladin all the way to T2?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on April 09, 2019, 03:04:06 PM
Succubus statblock (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/succubus/). You get everything except the following (due to the ability being based on Summon Monster): Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport, Summon. That means at will Charm Person and Suggestion as Spell-Like Abilities which "has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally." (Meaning undetectable). On top of this is risk free Profane Gift. Profane Gift gives everyone in the party +2 to to their highest stat and telepathy.

If being able to spam Summon Monster as a Binder breaks the game enough to make it tier 2 with that one vestige, so does being able to spam undetectable Charm Person and Suggestion.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: KellKheraptis on April 10, 2019, 05:20:38 PM
I have recently been digging around on the Vigilante lately, and while most of the overall class and archtypes feel somewhere mid-Tier 4, a couple are notable powerups.  A Warlock in particular is a mid-Tier 3 at least, and if the full available fixes for Arcane Bolts (I believe that's what they call their "Dr Strange" zap cantrip?) are in play, a definite gish in a can a la magus, but playing differently.  Not to mention at least up to 8th level spells if the right talents and feats are snagged.

I haven't looked deep enough yet to see if level 9 spells can be cheesed out of it, but THAT ALONE would move the Warlock archetype well out of Tier 4.

EDIT: Kell failed a Perception check and didn't see the update from who knows when on the Vig getting tier 3 w/ spellcasting archetype...and now we see why I play Wis dump stat characters :-P
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on April 16, 2019, 02:17:22 PM
i feel that there's lots power variation of spellcasting archetypes for the vigilante, like the cabalist vs. the psychometrist  or warlock vs. avenging beast
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: TC X0 Lt 0X on April 18, 2019, 12:02:37 AM
I have recently been digging around on the Vigilante lately, and while most of the overall class and archtypes feel somewhere mid-Tier 4, a couple are notable powerups.  A Warlock in particular is a mid-Tier 3 at least, and if the full available fixes for Arcane Bolts (I believe that's what they call their "Dr Strange" zap cantrip?) are in play, a definite gish in a can a la magus, but playing differently.  Not to mention at least up to 8th level spells if the right talents and feats are snagged.

I haven't looked deep enough yet to see if level 9 spells can be cheesed out of it, but THAT ALONE would move the Warlock archetype well out of Tier 4.

EDIT: Kell failed a Perception check and didn't see the update from who knows when on the Vig getting tier 3 w/ spellcasting archetype...and now we see why I play Wis dump stat characters :-P

What talents are letting them cast those higher levels? I thought they had 6th level casting  :???
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on April 18, 2019, 01:11:40 AM
All I can think of is Expanded Studies feat, which makes spells of higher level count as on list for (not using) UMD purposes. It's restricted to Warpriest and Hunter and needs wisdom, but I'm sure any sane (meaning non-PFS) GM will allow it to be used for the casting Vigilante archetypes and Eldritch Scoundrel with the appropriate main attribute. That's still only up to 7 and not that great though.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on April 19, 2019, 02:24:51 PM
Succubus statblock (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/succubus/). You get everything except the following (due to the ability being based on Summon Monster): Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport, Summon. That means at will Charm Person and Suggestion as Spell-Like Abilities which "has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally." (Meaning undetectable).
You forgot Vampiric Touch and Alter Self too. Alter Self into a small form can give her +4 to stealth, +1 attack, and +1 AC and she can get extra natural attacks too. But overall the Succubus has poor damage and attack and thus little in the way of offensive potential other than spamming Vampiric Touch or charming enemies, which is not good enough. It seems the best way to leverage a Succubus in combat would be to give her a Headband of Vast Intelligence (+2) to give her 8 ranks of UMD, maybe add a Circlet of Persuasion, and have her start abusing UMD with wands and scrolls, or even staves. Come to think of it the Succubus can restore 1 staff charge per day too, if SLAs count.

You might be better off with a Shadow Demon abusing his magic jar. Anything you beat unconscious (nonlethal) is considered a willing target, but you'll need to heal it back up afterwards. Given the advanced template his spells get +2 to DC for free, add a Shadow Stencil Set (30gp) and shadow spells get another +1 to DC, which puts him at DC21 Magic Jar, DC21 Shadow Conjuration, and DC22 Shadow Evocation. He also has at-will Telekinesis to do high amounts of damage.

It's worth noting that the Antipaladin's aura of despair gives enemies -2 to saves. With a Cornugon Smash feat he can easily get them Shaken as well. Not to mention a Conductive Scorpion Whip applying sickened (or nauseated).

Quote
On top of this is risk free Profane Gift. Profane Gift gives everyone in the party +2 to to their highest stat
No, the risk remains. Profane Gift as a Supernatural ability does not expire when the Succubus is de-summoned under PF rules (only spells and SLAs do). And summons cannot truly be killed; they just return to their home planes when they die, at which point she is free to abuse her Profane Gift to harass everyone she's Gifted with at-will Suggestion and Telepathy across planar distances (because she can explicitly use them across any distance without any limitation applied) or even just revoke her Gift as a free action and give people 2d6 cha drain.

Quote
and telepathy
Handy, yes.

Quote
If being able to spam Summon Monster as a Binder breaks the game enough to make it tier 2 with that one vestige, so does being able to spam undetectable Charm Person and Suggestion.
The Binder reaches T2 because being able to spam Summon Monster gives you access to every summonable monster and their abilities. It's far beyond spamming a single monster's abilities in terms of plowing through encounters. That said, I suppose endless undetectable Charm Person and Suggestion spam can break campaigns just fine. It's somewhat comparable to a diplomancer build (although a proper diplomancer is still much better for these shenanigans). With this logic we may as well ask whether a Bard should also be marked as T2 then. He only needs 1 Spellsong feat and no one will notice him spamming his spells or abusing Fascinate to throw Suggestion performances on everybody. If you do have a Succubus around out-of-combat though, it will be an obvious trick to just spam Charm Person and Suggestion. Well, that kind of stunt is probably veering into T2 as well, although regular diplomacy abuse is better if you're going down that road.

What the heck, for now marking Fiendish Bond Antipaladin as T3 since it's certainly stronger and more versatile than a T4 but I'm not sure if it's quite T2; still he's probably T4 until level 11. Regular Antipaladin is a blue T4, because while Smite Good is much more circumstantial than Smite Evil (since a good campaign can reliably face predominantly evil enemies but an evil campaign is nowhere near as likely to spend its time fighting good enemies), a Conductive weapon lets him mix Touch of Corruption into his melee attacks making him a potent martial especially given his debuffing auras. The downside is you can't use a conductive weapon with a ranged attack, so unless the Antipaladin worships Baphomet in the Golarion setting for Monstrous Physique spells or uses a whip + lunge he will have an unpleasant time melee full attacking people from a distance. The easiest way seems to be playing a Human with Military Tradition for Whip and Scorpion Whip proficiencies then wield a Scorpion Whip as his weapon. If you don't use a Conductive property with a reach weapon and Lunge (or some means of pounce), he falls off a bit to a regular T4. Conductive does not work with a ranged weapon here because Touch of Corruption is a melee touch.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on April 19, 2019, 04:56:59 PM
Bard has a finite number of attempts but a Succubus can spam till someone rolls a 1. I'll settle for a good tier 3 though.

How is Magic Jar as an SLA supposed to work anyways? Not that it matters for Shadow Demon since there's a bit of pseudo-errata in Occult Adventures that says to replace all magic jar SLAs with (Greater) Possession SLAs.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on April 19, 2019, 11:53:25 PM
Bard has a finite number of attempts but a Succubus can spam till someone rolls a 1. I'll settle for a good tier 3 though.
Bard has a finite though large number of attempts, yes, unless he's going fullblown diplomancer, but that's generally been a T2 stunt. Charm Person does have more trouble with charming a whole room, a more limited list of targets, and I think there's only so long a Succubus can spam Charm Person before it gets suspicious. Not to mention that Charm Person can get detected, dispelled, noticed by Sense Motive, and once it expires people may recognize they weren't quite being their usual selves. But spamming endless Charm Person and Suggestion is still very abusable. I guess part of the question is how much will at-will Charm Person and Suggestion be abused beyond what a normal character could do in a day and how likely is that to bite you in the ass?

Quote
How is Magic Jar as an SLA supposed to work anyways? Not that it matters for Shadow Demon since there's a bit of pseudo-errata in Occult Adventures that says to replace all magic jar SLAs with (Greater) Possession SLAs.
The shadow demon jumps in and takes over the target's body until the spell expires or he is evicted. There is no actual magic jar used (the target's soul stays in the body) nor does the shadow demon have a corporeal body he leaves behind.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on December 04, 2019, 07:11:47 AM
Monster Tactician Inquisitor has been added as a red T2. The reason why Monster Tactician is red but Unchained Summoner is not is that Unchained Summoner still has access to Planar Binding, Gate, Lesser Create Demiplane, Teleport, Stinking Cloud, Create Pit, Wall of Ice/Stone, etc.

May be up to revision depending on how much spell access the Inquisitor gains through Summon Monster, considering the massive amount of ways you can expand the Summon Monster list.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on February 02, 2020, 08:08:09 PM
If Magus and Warpriest are red/weak for its tier, I think Mesmerist and especially Medium ought to be too.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 12, 2020, 01:19:53 PM
Magus is a red T3 because it has a very big slant towards being played as a bruiser or blaster, in T4 fashion, except with wizarding tricks on top. His own spell list is a bit too limited (with a zealous focus on blasting and martial stunts, and a small smattering of invisibility, teleports, minor illusions, and walls), missing most of the skill stunts, divinations, crafting, and spells to handle social situations. He has number of solid 1st through 3rd level spells, but after that it starts to fall off, although the Spell Blending arcana will give the Magus access to choice Wizard spells (it uncomfortably penalizes you for trying to get access to Wizard spells of your highest spell level though) for regular T3 status. The main reason I regard it as low T3 is really because people tend to go very martial on the Magus and tend not to develop the breadth of solutions that typify T3, although even without that it is still T3, just on the lower end.

Warpriest I guess I'll move back to regular T3, although I generally feel that Bard and Inquisitor do much better and that it is a shitty Cleric minus on the whole. It has no discounted spells, no domain spells, shitty blessings instead of domain powers, and a slew of buffs in places it doesn't really need. There is honestly no good reason to play a Warpriest over a Cleric unless that reason is "I think Clerics are overpowered." There's little reason to play a Warpriest over an Inquisitor either. Still the class works fine and it does get a decent selection of spells for a variety of situations.

Mesmerist is T3 because it has a solid versatility in its abilities. It might not be as potent as a martial but it has a solid variety of problem-solving tools thanks to its divinations, illusion series of spells, enchantment series of spells, and it has access to many of the best early spells (grease, sleep, color spray, obscuring mist, glitterdust, invisibility, pyrotechnics, silence, blur),  plus tricks, stares, and touch treatment. So basically it stays useful in a good variety of circumstances. Even against mindless enemies it can still use its stares (psychic inception stare power) and tricks to contribute as well as spells like grease, alter self, glitterdust/pyrotechnics/obscuring mist, defensive illusions, teleportations, solid fog, and shadow evocation/conjuration (mindless enemies tend to have shit will saves). If it's not PFS then Draconic Malice lets him hit anything living with mind-affecting fear spells and even without that he can use Psychic Inception to cast mind-affecting spells if desperate. The Mesmerist is also not brought down by psychic casting as much thanks to the fact that he has a solid bunch of spells that do not have an emotion component and he gets a bonus on will saves and he can remove shaken from himself as a swift action, giving him decent countermeasures against the usual weaknesses of psychics. Basically the Mesmerist isn't always strong (although he can do some very silly things with Mind Swap or trivialize an entire encounter with Confusion) but he does have the tools to consistently be a significant asset to the party, played right.

Looking over the Medium class, I'm listing a Medium that can't seance well as T4 and Mediums that can are kept as T3. I'd say that the Medium archetypes that do not have problems channeling spirits (Fiend Keeper, Uda Wendo, Relic Channeler, and Rivethun Spirit Channeler) are probably the best. The Medium does have the weaknesses of psychic classes and if you have trouble channeling spirits it nosedives hard. It's not even full BAB to compensate for its 4th level spellcasting.

Both Mesmerists and Mediums should probably invest in a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Logical Spell though.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on February 16, 2020, 01:39:12 PM
Amnesiac Psychic looks like it should be tier 1.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 16, 2020, 07:51:29 PM
That's an unreliable T1 that requires you to burn your swifts in combat for a decent chance at getting the spell you want. I suppose it's technically T1 but I'm not sure I'm comfortable listing something that janky as T1. Even red T1 seems to be a bit of a misstatement. The point of a T1 is that it's a combination of extreme power and extreme flexibility that enables the player to take care of any problem by himself, but a 35% chance of not getting the spell you need at the moment you need it introduces a bad element of unreliability in a tier that is typified by its ability to make a sure thing out of any challenge by pulling the perfect tools out of their hat. I think I'll pass on listing it.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on February 16, 2020, 08:08:49 PM
You missed two critical points to the archetype

Quote
Each day, for each spell level the amnesiac can cast, she retains a number of spells known equal to half the number listed on Table 1–8, rounded up. These spells must be selected from spells the amnesiac knew the previous day (including any spells she remembered using spell recollection; see below). The remainder of her spells known (half the number on Table 1–8, rounded down) become amnesia slots, which the amnesiac can use with her spell recollection ability (see below).
Quote
Once a spell has been remembered in this way, the amnesiac can cast it as one of her spells known for the rest of the day (even if she failed to cast the spell during the round in which she remembered it), unless spell recollection allowed her to cast a spell of a higher level than she would normally be able to cast.

Basically you can keep the spells you need for combat remembered as normal spells known and keep Amnesia casting for situational stuff. The penalty (lose action and 10% chance to lose spell slot) for failing amnesia casting out of combat isn't that painful compared to the gain (near spontaneous access to the entire Psychic spell list). Human alternate FCB also helps here since those spells aren't subject to being amnesiaed.

(it's also slightly lower than 35% in combat.
Quote
Because the mental stress of combat brings memories to the surface more easily, the amnesiac adds 1d10 to this roll’s result if she’s in combat when she attempts to recall a spell.
)

It is indeed very weird, and takes a few re-reads to understand. I'm surprised this was from a hardcover and is PFS legal.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 17, 2020, 05:33:33 AM
And this only applies to the highest two spell levels the amnesiac is capable of casting. Well, it's a jank archetype, but it's true that using spell recollection out of combat to add it to spells known the next day is a dependable T1 stunt. Listed.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 18, 2020, 02:59:49 PM
these (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UY1RrLleESzHZv2L6rkJnWihtzyazz1kvUzisZTO9TU/edit) people have created a list of all the class archetypes, and rated them in a pair of ways (power and versatility).
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 18, 2020, 03:23:27 PM
Yeah, seen it. Don't really agree with the list. I have a very different take on a number of the archetypes it lists.

I already posted a basic list of what I view to be the best archetypes for each class here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18508.msg335823#msg335823).
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on February 18, 2020, 06:36:15 PM
Most of those seem solid, but Magical Child is the best Vigilante archetype?!? It explicitly says Unchained Summoner.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on February 18, 2020, 08:47:13 PM
Unchained Summoner is still largely a discounted Wizard list with a few perks on top. Nowhere as good as the regular Summoner (which is an 8th level caster in disguise, really), but still solid.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 18, 2020, 09:14:27 PM
yeah, some of their choices are a little interesting. but it can be nice to see what everyone says and go from there. not to mention getting an opinion on ALL the archetypes, not just the older ones or best ones

@power, what's your pick for best unchained summoner archetype?
antipaladin archetype?

there's a couple more classes not on there, like most of the psychic casters.

has there been any archetypes to add to the list since mid-2018?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on February 18, 2020, 11:43:25 PM
I don't think there are any anti-paladin archetypes that aren't in some way a downgrade. They either loses spells, nerf the powerful Fiendish Bond (even if unintentionally from making them lawful) or, (in the case of fearmonger) are just plain old broken in the sense it doesn't work.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on February 20, 2020, 01:48:48 AM
thanks for the update to your archetype list through that link :)
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: unmitigated on May 02, 2020, 10:37:59 PM
Out of curiousity, I know that Unchained and Chained Rogues keep the same tier, is the same true for Unchained and Chained Eldritch Scoundrels?  The reason I ask is that with things like Skill Unlock (Heal) and Healer's Hands you can be N times per day healing N*floor(2N/5) hp and floor(2N/5) ability damage starting at 5th level as a full round action (where N is your level and ostensibly your heal and knowlege (planes) ranks in this case) for nearly no resources (or actually no resources with a 3000gp surgery vest), which while all unchained rogues can do it and it's not enough versatility to push to Tier 5 from Tier 5, I'd be curious if, once you combine it with magus-progression sor/wiz casting, it adds enough of an additional role to push from regular T3 to Blue T3
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on May 03, 2020, 03:26:19 AM
with a single feat (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Signature%20Skill), you can get skill unlocks for any class.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on May 04, 2020, 07:05:28 AM
Heal optimization builds can be handy, but if you have sorc/wiz casting you can already just use wands of Infernal Healing for your regular healing needs. So what you're really getting out of this is the ability to treat ability damage with a full-round action and heal regular damage without needing to buy or craft wands. With a plain Heal skill you can already heal 4 ability damage in 1 day using long-term care for complete rest. All you need is a heal modifier of 5 (3 with healer's kit giving +2 circumstance bonus) and you can take 10 for that. That said, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue can easily hit T2 with a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Dazing Spell and maybe a Planned Spontaneity feat. Planar Binding alone can be used to bind beings capable of granting wishes and go T1. Simulacrum, Mind Swap, and Possession spells can be similarly abused.

There are plenty of ways to raise a class into a higher tier simply by being more capable with the tools already at your disposal. Even a plain Paladin that uses a bow, gets a Skill Focus in UMD, trait for UMD as a class skill, and has a high cha modifier plus solid Diplomacy skill can end up in T3 just by carrying a wide swath of useful scrolls and wands. Because then you've got a character that's a solid party face, a strong damage dealer, a solid healer, and a capable spellcaster for the majority of your needs. Whatever the situation, he's probably going to contribute well. Actually with UMD alone you can break into T2 easily enough. Even something like playing a Core-only Monk can perform above the normal tier if you turn into a Shuriken tossing build, develop your skills carefully (stealth optimization, heal optimization, clever profession skill selection, getting diplomacy and/or bluff as wis-based skills, etc.), and start running around with adventuring items like an adamantine arrow to use as an improvised dagger to break down walls, grappling hooks with knotted ropes to trivialize climbing checks for the whole party, a +1 ghost touch net, ten-foot pole, various handy magical trinkets and alchemical items, and a number of potions and oils. This can contribute significantly above his tier and let him become a surprisingly useful and valued member of the party.

Generally speaking, a sufficiently skilled player will raise a class's performance by at least 1 tier. Kaelik earlier on in this thread demonstrated a high power Rogue build by using Eversmoking Bottles with the right means to see through smoke (ie. Ifrit race) so that you can full attack for sneak attacks by producing your own total concealment and performing full attacks with ranged weapons. Getting clever with UMD will typically also raise just about any class to a decent tier and even destroy campaigns depending on how far you take it. Optimizing bluff and diplomacy checks can also destroy campaigns outright. And so on.

That said, achieving tier shifts should generally not be a goal in and of itself as much as your goals should be covering your party's deficiencies and making sure that your character can stay relevant and useful in a wide variety of adventuring situations.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on May 04, 2020, 01:02:04 PM
The reverse is true, making bad choices can drop a class down.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on May 05, 2020, 11:34:20 AM
Most certainly. In fact a bad Wizard often operates around a T3 or even T4. Although with PF rewarding Sorcerers with extra damage per damage die, playing a blaster Wizard ceased being popular.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on May 05, 2020, 11:55:58 AM
Power, what would be your opinion on what would be the worst archetype(s) overall?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on May 05, 2020, 06:06:22 PM
Shifter likely has all three of the three worst.

Fiendflesh Shifter falls automatically, becoming an NPC that knows Druidic.
Quote
Fiendflesh shifters care nothing for the natural world and are instead consumed by an ever-growing lust for power at any price [...] an intrusion into the natural order of things and a foe who must be sought out and destroyed.
Quote
A shifter who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a non-druid or a non-shifter loses all her supernatural abilities. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a shifter until she atones (see the atonement spell).

Oozemorph is pretty well documented as broken in the truenamer sense. Rather than fix it, didn't they go out of their way to rule that the work around to make it playable (play a Kitsune) didn't work because they didn't want it to? One of the extremely rare cases where losing a level (which is hard in PF) will make you more powerful.

Rageshaper literally makes you an NPC. No idea how that got printed, especially since there is a similiar Vigilante archetype, Brute, Paizo had already admitted was a mistake. Brute also belongs on a worst of list.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on May 06, 2020, 06:22:31 AM
Power, what would be your opinion on what would be the worst archetype(s) overall?
Vow of Poverty on Monks, obviously. Cloistered Cleric is also pretty awful. Untouchable Rager is a severely garbage Bloodrager archetype. Opportunist is a garbage archetype on Fighters alright. Majordomo is hot garbage for Investigators. There are many more, but Vow of Poverty is by far the worst, assuming you don't just break the vow. Strictly speaking VoP does permit you to have 1 item you can pour all your WBL into, though.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on May 06, 2020, 12:44:09 PM
Yeah, some pretty terrible ones there.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Endarire on May 23, 2020, 12:42:20 AM
Master Summoner: How does this change its tier if it does?  Paizo warned people about its exceptional power, and I seek your opinion.

Magus: What archetypes notably change its tiering?  Magus and Warpriest are focused on doing the martial + casting from low levels while full casters seemingly are meant to be more powerful and versatile later.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on May 23, 2020, 07:04:34 AM
Master Summoner is internal tier movement mostly. Tier 2 is already an extremely powerful tier. The big issue with Master Summoner is that you can just spend every turn summoning more monsters with your extreme uses/day and shutting down combats with extremely large crowds of monsters to use as everything from utility to meatwalls to damage sources, but normal Summoners can already use Summon Monster -> monsters attack, then on next round hold action summoned monsters attack -> Summon Monster again -> more monsters attack and get 2 packs of monsters attacking each round. I guess if you have the benefit of concealment you can spam summon monster to make a large pack of enemies before walking through a door to nuke everything. On that note you can also lend items to your summons to make them uncommonly dangerous. Lillend Azatas for instance are basically 7th level bards (https://www.aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bard), which means if you hand them Dervish Sikke (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Dervish%20Sikke), Three Reasons to Live (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Three%20Reasons%20to%20Live), and Banner of the Ancient Kings (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Banner%20of%20the%20Ancient%20Kings) they will do Inspire Courage +5 instead of Inspire Courage +2. Similarly you can hand them Page of Spell Knowledge (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Page%20of%20Spell%20Knowledge1st) or Ring of Spell Knowledge (https://aonprd.com/MagicRingsDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Ring%20of%20Spell%20Knowledgetype%20I) to let them cast spells they don't have as spells known.

For Magus, the most potent archetypes are Hexcrafter (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Magus%20Hexcrafter) (if you abuse SoL hexes and the like) and Beastblade (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Magus%20Beastblade) (if you make up for loss of Knowledge Pool), since it's made for action economy abuse. Achieving Tier 2 is pretty doable for any Magus through either abusing SoL effects or using spell blending to obtain the right spells from the Wizard list. Not to mention the option of just using wands or scrolls for spells not even on your list, given their arcana that let them resolve scrolls and wands with their own ability score for spell DCs, so all you need to do is cast Monstrous Physique II (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Monstrous%20Physique%20II) to turn into a Doppleganger (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Doppleganger) and use their mimicry ability to start using scrolls and wands without a UMD check so long as their caster level is lower than yours (provided they can be activated with an intelligence ability score requirement, or you will have to make a UMD roll for that part, at least). Alternatively, use a Pragmatic Activator (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Pragmatic%20Activator) magic trait to make UMD int-based and maybe a Skill Focus feat. UMD abuse and WBLmancy can reach T1 in general, tbh, but the Magus's special capability to just resolve scrolls and wands with his own ability modifier just lends itself to extra silliness with the most basic UMD applications.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on July 09, 2020, 04:56:33 AM
@Power here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614822-Updated-Tier-List-for-Pathfinder&s=5acaf0f879d89eb30d4ef73884e6ed82&p=24603670#post24603670) is the response when I sent a link to your tier list of GitP.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on July 09, 2020, 08:09:52 AM
Huh.

Incidentally, it's not getting to use Wish at 17 that makes the Bard crazy. It's getting well over 30 free daily uses of Limited Wish (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Limited%20Wish) (no component cost necessary, unless you are emulating a spell with over 1k gp material component) at level 13 that makes it T1. And when I say Bard (Music Beyond the Spheres masterpiece (https://aonprd.com/BardMasterpieces.aspx)) I am saying it's only T1 once you have that masterpiece. Of course, you can also reach Tier 1 at lower levels just by abusing Legato Piece on the Infernal Bargain for free Wishes at level 11 or using Dominate Person (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dominate%20Person) to get your own pet Wizard or whatever, but at that stage you are doing specific optimized plays to break the tiers, whereas becoming T1 with Music Beyond the Spheres requires no stunts. You just use it and you're overpowered with just about every spellcasting solution at your disposal. At most the "stunt" is to use Music Beyond the Spheres to hand yourself free Restoration (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Restoration) on demand to remove its own ability drain.

Tier bumping is easily achieved through optimized play even independent of archetypes. It's somewhat rare for archetypes to achieve actual tier bumps on their own, honestly. Internal tier movement does happen though. 
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on July 09, 2020, 12:32:19 PM
Or like how the tier 0 "turn into a trap" thing only kicks in when you actually get it (earliest level 14) or arch-familiar at level 20.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on July 09, 2020, 12:37:24 PM
I found it interesting that they instantly assumed that this tier list was based on 9th level spell selection or tried to write it off as being a 3.PF list (neither of which are remotely accurate). Seems like they were just rushing for reasons to be dismissive, really.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on July 09, 2020, 03:45:10 PM
agreed.
PF is DnD 3.75, so of course there's going to be overlap on the tier list. but it doesn't mean that they're affected by how the 3.5 classes performed
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on July 10, 2020, 04:49:52 PM
I also found it amusing that they assumed the tier lists revolved around optimization stunts, because really any class can reach Tier 1 with sufficient optimization.

The tier lists only operate under the assumption that you know your class and how to play it, not that you are doing some kind of optimal game-breaking tech. What makes 9th level prepared casters Tier 1, for instance, isn't the fact that they get 9th level spells, but the fact that they have an extremely expansive suite of solutions to virtually any sort of problem and they get those spells earlier than anyone. At most they need 1 day to prepare all the spells they need (or also, in the Druid's case, to dismiss and recruit a new animal companion with a new build) and obtain a tailored solution to utterly trivialize the problem the party is facing. 6th level casters typically do not have full access to their spell lists without stunts or have more limited spell lists to draw from (Warpriests for instance do not get domain spells, Magus has a more limited list and is penalized for trying to get equal-level Wizard spells, Alchemist has a rather limited list as well), they tend to get their spells a bit later to boot, and they're less likely to be capable of becoming fortresses unto themselves who auto-solve any problem in a single spellcast or a few spellcasts if it's a non-combat task.

Wizards on the other hand can easily shapeshift into elementals with large temporary hitpoints while retaining spellcasting capability, utterly subdue entire encounters of enemies in a single spell, summon monsters to annihilate whatever stands in their way with extreme prejudice, place contingencies to teleport themselves away from chance of death, make simulacrums and undead armies, create walls of iron and fabricate them into armaments fit to supply a regiment, divine their enemies' every secret, read people's minds, mind control their enemies, thrive underwater or in outer space, teleport around with ease, and the list just goes on and we haven't even touched the level 7+ spells. Druids can shapeshift into an extreme variety of potent forms while retaining spellcasting ability and collect +15 AC without any penalties just by wearing a +1 Wild Dragonhide Full Plate and then a +1 Wild Tower Shield (since in wild shape they are no longer wearing them but get their AC bonuses anyway, thanks to the wild magic property - oh, and this is not counting things like Magic Vestment or Barkskin), can fly and earthglide through dungeons with trivial ease, can abuse wild shape for all manner of poisons and other abilities with extreme DCs, can dismiss and acquire new animal companions for free by doing a 24 hour ritual and then proceed to build new animal companions in different ways for their encounters (which you can take very far), can summon hordes of beasts/elementals/etc. to murder whatever is in the druid's path (alongside the druid's own animal companion), summon some satyrs to dominate social situations, create entire fortresses with stone shape, move earth, and wall of stone, arm large numbers of people with ironwood and wood shape spells, scry out the positions of their enemies, interrogate animals, plants, even stone for secrets, cripple armies with winds, thrive in water and outer space (or even buried in stone), teleport massive distances through trees and plants, and loads more before we break into level 7+ spells. And neither of these two examples have even left Pathfinder Core or involved any feats (aside from Natural Spell, although there are a number of wild shape forms that can cast spells without that) or magic items.

Now a sufficiently well-played 6th level caster can readily reach T2 or even break into T1, but that isn't the norm. Reaching T2 generally involves some actual mastery of your class and cleverness (or rods of Dazing Spell metamagic, as ways to abuse this will swiftly make themselves apparent to you once you go down this road). And with game-breaking intent really anything can become T1, the most basic example being using Use Magic Device to activate, say, scrolls above your level (like Summon Monster IX if you feel like auto-winning combat, or Planar Binding, etc.), or using Magic Craftsman + Craft Wondrous Item feats with ranks in Craft (Candle) and making Candles of Invocation to obtain Gate spells for less than half price long before anyone should be casting 9th level spells (this is possible even in Core-only games). Another basic way to achieve T1 is to simply use a Leadership feat to get a T1 cohort. Even a Commoner can become Tier 3 simply through a sufficiently clever combination of feat selection, trait selection, skill usage, racials, and/or investing into a wide array of handy magical and non-magical items to give you a plethora of solutions to various forms of problems. Depending on how far you take this, you can enter T2 or T1 as a Commoner as well (even though the class does nothing for you). Highly clever and resourceful players tend to excel in just about any class even when they're not doing game-breaking tech. But I do not list these classes as T1, etc. simply because you can do this.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on July 11, 2020, 02:59:37 AM
Not to mention, the discussions among many people about where they should sit on the list. Its not just one person and their opinion. There's 10 pages of discussions over the years of back and forth, tweaking things.

Of course, people are going to disagree w some of the spots. I feel like its usually its at most 1 tier up or down.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on July 28, 2020, 10:08:11 AM
I suppose I might as well explain why I moved Hunter down to T4. Basically, I'm not convinced the Hunter is that much more powerful or versatile than the Ranger. The Hunter suffers from being a spontaneous caster without an extra spells known favored class bonus wielding a spell list that emphasizes strong situational utility over raw power, and is essentially a martial class without any bonus feats aside from Precise Shot maybe who also has to deal with 3/4 BAB without the kinds of self-buffs other classes have to compensate for it. The full animal companion is still quite powerful (especially with Druid buffs - Skirmisher tricks are ridiculously limited post-errata), however, and he does get Ranger spells a full 3 levels before the Ranger does and Druid spells on top of that, but the Hunter is usually not played as a spellcaster with high Wis nor does he get full access to his spell list (as the Druid and Ranger do). So overall the Ranger makes a better martial, but the Hunter makes a better animal companion. A decent Ranger will also have Magical Knack (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Magical%20Knack) magic trait, Boon Companion (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Boon%20Companion) feat, and Monstrous Mount (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Monstrous%20Mount) feat (skip mastery, get Griffon (https://aonprd.com/DruidCompanions.aspx?ItemName=Griffon)) to narrow those gaps while retaining full BAB, favored enemy, better hitdie, and combat style feats. A sufficiently skillful Hunter is T3, but so is a sufficiently skillful Ranger, Paladin, or Bloodrager.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of versatility out of the Hunter either. As a healer the Hunter cannot prepare situational spells on demand so he's healing with a Wand of Cure Light Wounds mostly, but at least he can learn Cure Light Wounds and spontaneously cast it with all his remaining spell slots at the end of the day. As an investigator the Hunter again suffers for not being able to prepare situational spells to locate routes or interrogate local wildlife/fauna/stones/etc, so he is left with Survival and Perception mostly. As a party face the Hunter has probably dumped Charisma and has neither the spells nor the class skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive) for it. As a scout the Hunter is quite passable with Stealth and Perception (which he can even augment a bit with spells and animal focuses), but he has no trapfinding (which can be obtained with the Trap Finder (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Trap%20Finder) campaign-specific trait or Monitor Obedience (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Monitor%20Obedience) (Imot (https://www.aonprd.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Imot)) feat, but the Hunter usually needs his feats for his combat build). The Hunter has passable martial prowess (mostly through his animal companion), spellcasting, and some versatility, but it doesn't seem to hit the level of a T3 to me, unless you optimize. Generally speaking the Hunter seems to be competing more with the likes of the Paladin, Ranger, and Bloodrager rather than Inquisitor, Bard, Magus, etc. I may end up revising this if the spell selection is good enough.

Overall, the Hunter's big strength is a full animal companion and 6th-level casting drawing from both the Ranger and Druid lists, but it's a spontaneous caster without a spells known favored class bonus wielding a combined spell list that largely specializes in situational spells (if you aren't maximizing Wis for spell DCs) and some animal companion buffs which tries to act as a martial despite not having full BAB, good bonus feats, or strong self-buffs. The saddest thing about the Hunter has got to be that Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor, a regular Inquisitor with the animal domain and a Boon Companion feat, or worse yet, a Nature Fang Druid, all step all over the Hunter at his own job while he's busy comparing notes with the Ranger. Nature Fang Druid in particular is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Kelenius on October 19, 2020, 10:28:07 AM
I think you mixed up Medium and Mesmerist in the OP.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on October 28, 2020, 06:07:43 AM
You're right. Fixed.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on May 25, 2021, 09:12:52 PM
Hunter moved back to T3 after closer analysis. The early spell access through the Ranger list has some bizarrely potent effects, with some powerful spells being available far too early (for example. Resist Energy, Wind Wall, Fickle Winds). So that brings us back to spellcasting prowess, martial prowess (through the animal companion primarily), and the versatility of a large amount of skill ranks.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on May 26, 2021, 04:42:25 PM
I think Gunslinger may qualify as tier 4 past the initial levels (5/6+). Then it can minimize its faults (low reload times, misfire) and spam sheer damage (with no versatility at all).

Kineticist prob varies by element as much as some classes vary by archetype. Aether (Telekinesis) Kineticist is easily the strongest for versatility while having a good blast (able to select any physical damage type, so less concern about DR/resistance) and could be a weak tier 3. Fire (limited utility, very resisted element) and Wood (almost no utility talents printed for it and fewer good ones) could slip to tier 5.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on May 27, 2021, 08:06:01 PM
i'm curious if you'd add the Omdura (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/omdura/) and Vampire Hunter (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vampire-hunter/)?

they are 2pp material.

obvious, the Old Spice Gentleman is a joke class and wouldn't go on the tier list
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on May 31, 2021, 08:29:35 AM
Haven't really added them although I suppose I could make an extra list or something.

Vampire Hunter is T4. Even with weakened inquisitor spell progression and spontaneous casting, it's still a T4. It doesn't get any bonuses to attack and damage, but it does have a full caster level (like the bloodrager) despite the delayed spellcasting progression, which means it can cast spells like Divine Favor, Resist Energy, Divine Power, and so on just fine. It also gets spells like Silence, Invisibility, Death Knell, Heroism, and Bestow Insight (if Human) and a number of divinations. It also has some decent combat options with Vampiric Focus, including Vampiric Agility (bonus movement speed and evasion), Vampiric Call (more useful at higher levels once you start cancelling and reapplying it each round for fresh temporary hitpoints), and Vampiric Resolve. Probably Vampiric Agility should be his first or 8th level focus (when Evasion kicks in). Vampiric Presence is interesting but the odds are the Vampire Hunter cannot afford to have a decent charisma modifier and there are regional traits to make social skills wis-based nowadays. And beyond that it still gets a few bonus combat feats. Honestly though, if you want to hunt vampires, you're better off playing a Ranger with Favored Enemy (Undead).

Omdura is a high T3, especially if it's a Half-Elf and thus benefits from Paragon Surge (through the Cleric list). Just about every invocation is good and worth using, and the Omdura can even activate them as a move action (and swift, but you want lesser metamagic rods of quicken spell for those actions) and at level 11 can use two of them at once. The Omdura also gets Lay on Hands, but the real prize is using it as an Antipaladin's Touch of Corruption (neutral alignment hurray) and combining that with a Conductive reach weapon (possibly a whip or scorpion whip, especially considering the Omdura gets her deity's favored weapon as a free proficiency). Divine Might is a neat perk to have (especially if you are neutral and can smite anything), and at level 18 it gets buffed into far stronger form (although by this point you are probably not playing martial anymore, but who knows, at this point you can stack all your martial invocations, touch of corruption, divine weapon, smite, and some spells for some rather massive combat prowess). Divine Weapon is useful even for non-martial omduras because of the Defending property it offers, and Brilliant Energy is always a good option to have. The real prize is probably the Chaotic Good alignment for the Holy and Vicious properties (+4d6 damage per hit, seems good), although the neutral alignment's Vorpal property can be used with a Cyclops Helm (or a couple of them) for a no-save no-roll instant kill, if your GM doesn't ban that.

Honestly would be curious to see an all Omdura party in action.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on June 01, 2021, 06:29:30 PM
thx!

is the omdura played roughly an inquisitor or warpriest?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on June 06, 2021, 09:22:33 AM
It's clearly a martial/caster hybrid but nothing is stopping you from playing it spellcaster style, although you may want one of those tricks to flexibly expand your spells known list. The Omdura (or Omdar if the character in question is male) class has enough party buff class features that can be used as a spellcaster, and putting a Defending property on a weapon along with a raised enhancement bonus (which can be combined with a weapon that had Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon preapplied for an easy +5 bonus at higher levels) will make use of the Divine Weapon feature to get a massive AC bonus instead of playing martial.

Casting off of both the Cleric and Inquisitor lists gives it a good enough spell list to be a primary spellcaster for most intents and purposes, especially if you throw in the Blessed by a God or Dragon feat from the same book, although that one uses Wis-based spell DCs.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on August 13, 2021, 03:15:39 PM
Rogue shifted to red tier 5. Without optimization tricks the entire class is pretty bad and essentially a walking bag of skills (with optimization tricks sneak attack is still a hilariously potent source of damage) in a system where anyone can do skills with only a slight bit of investment.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on September 28, 2021, 06:46:36 PM
I think Gunslinger may qualify as tier 4 past the initial levels (5/6+). Then it can minimize its faults (low reload times, misfire) and spam sheer damage (with no versatility at all).
Most of the successes of Gunslingers have no relation to the features of the Gunslinger class and everything to do with the use of items/feats/etc to address problems with firearms and turn them into ridiculous sources of ranged touch attacks. The only good thing about a Gunslinger is dex to damage with firearms, but there are plenty of ways for other classes to add flat damage to attacks (and have higher attack bonuses) even if you can't get dex to damage. The only thing that makes Gunslingers look good is that it encourages you to abuse firearms, but anyone can do that, and most of them (Fighter (esp. Trench Fighter), Paladin, Bloodrager, Savage Technologist Barbarian, Brawler, Vigilante, Ninja, Rogue, Sohei Monk with versatile design firearm, Slayer, Gun Chemist Alchemist, Vivisectionist Alchemist, Inquisitor, Warpriest, Dawnflower Dervish Bard, Eldritch Archer Magus, etc.) are better at it than the Gunslinger. There is a reason why virtually every Gunslinger class build recommends multiclassing out of Gunslinger after level 5 or 6.

Quote
Kineticist prob varies by element as much as some classes vary by archetype. Aether (Telekinesis) Kineticist is easily the strongest for versatility while having a good blast (able to select any physical damage type, so less concern about DR/resistance) and could be a weak tier 3. Fire (limited utility, very resisted element) and Wood (almost no utility talents printed for it and fewer good ones) could slip to tier 5.
While there is a lot of variance depending on your pick of element, I feel like you have to try to drop below a weak Tier 4. It means picking bad elements, bad extra elements, bad infusions, and bad wild talents. Yes, it is certainly possible to make a weak Kineticist that is a poor damage dealer and has poor utility, but if you are a reasonably competent player, even bad elements shouldn't drop you below a Tier 4, especially since at level 7 you can get a second one. If it doesn't achieve a full tier shift, I'm not inclined to make a note of it.

And on that note, I'm not really seeing how aether Kineticist moves it all the way up to low Tier 3. It does have some useful utility powers but nothing that potent or versatile afaict. It seems more like optimized play achieving a tier bump than anything, and I get the feeling aether mostly looks as good as it does because the other elements have been lowering your standards a lot.

As for the examples you mentioned, if you go with wood Kineticist, you'd have to be an idiot to double up on wood at 7 (and making really bad decisions will let everyone go down 1 or more tiers), and even wood can let you do some stuff with Greensight and Kinetic Cover and Wall infusions (as well as using wild growth to get +4 to DCs) and if you just carry wood in your Bag of Holding or whatever you can do a lot with Wood Shape too. At high levels Wood Soldiers (ie. Wooden Phalanx) is rather useful if you just equip them with magic items and use them to break action economy or just spam them for manual labor on downtime. Their immunity to magic also makes them usable in combat against spellcasters if you just have someone use Resist Energy or Protection from Energy to ward them against fire.

Fire Kineticist meanwhile is generally lacking in utility but does manage to reach T4 in terms of damage dealing capability, especially if it's a blue flame Kineticist, until spell resistance (which should probably warrant a Greater Spell Penetration (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Greater%20Spell%20Penetration) feat and Expanded Metakinesis (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Expanded%20Metakinesis) for Piercing Spell (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Piercing%20Spell) as well as perhaps a Numerology Cylinder (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Numerology%20Cylinder) or Pipes of Dissolution (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Pipes%20of%20Dissolution)), fire resistance (which is surmountable through Penetrating Infusion if it's not too big), and fire immunity (either you have an Evocation school Wizard in the party to convert your fire damage into something else, you have Star Cinder (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Star%20Cinder) necklaces and Elemental Grip (https://www.aonprd.com/KineticistTalentsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Elemental%20Grip) to hit those immune to the necklace, or you can accept your uselessness and switch to using items to contribute to the party) interrupt you anyway. But hardcore fire blaster Kineticists still tend to get aether as their third school at level 15 at least, if for no other reason than to add Aetheric Boost to their composite blasts, so at those high levels where you frequently deal with strong defenses you do pick up utility on the side. It's still a low T4 I think. "Capable of doing one thing quite well but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise" sums up the fire Kineticist really.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on June 22, 2022, 02:52:45 PM
Added Torag (https://www.aonprd.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Torag)-worshiping Paladin to T3. All it does is give the Paladin two spells at 3rd level: Major Creation (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Major%20Creation) and Fabricate (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Fabricate). And that's enough. Make some buildings, walls, traps (being able to Fabricate traps opens up a lot of options...), pillbox to fire out of, advantageous combat terrain, alchemical remedies, herbs, weapons, alchemical weapons/tools, armor (including animal barding and unusually sized armor), vehicles (Fabricate your own airship, why not), any mundane tools you can think of, cages, disguises, food, bridges, mobile hospital, etc. You can also Fabricate your way into creating secret hideouts or use Major Creation to create objects to hide behind or inside (you may want a Wand of Magic Aura to make it detect as nonmagical, however). As long as you can make the skill checks, those two spells do a ridiculous amount of work, even with the Paladin being restrained by his code of conduct from things like unlawful activity, dishonorable activity, and making poisons in particular. And even without the skillchecks, you can still make these spells do a lot, but you should really amp those skillchecks. Take a Voices of Solid Things (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Voices%20of%20Solid%20Things) region trait or Unsanctioned Knowledge (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Unsanctioned%20Knowledge) or wands for Tears to Wine (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tears%20to%20Wine), Beloved of the Forge (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Beloved%20of%20the%20Forge), Heroism (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Heroism), etc, spread a smattering of skill points around to make your favorite crafts all trained, maybe take Spirit Ridden (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spirit%20Ridden), do some untrained skill optimization (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=19938.0), whatever. There are plenty of ways to get decent Craft modifiers, even on a Paladin, if you care to. You can usually take 10 on these Craft checks anyway. Of course, this only makes it T3 once you actually have the spells, so from level 10 onwards.

Hunter moved down to red T3 for now, since he's still played like a martial and suffers from being a spontaneous caster wielding spell lists where situational spell access rules. The fact is that a Hunter has a much harder time casting spells like Wood Shape, Stone Shape, Speak to Stone, Speak to Animals, a spell to obtain Survival bonus, etc. than a Druid or Ranger will. Contemplating Medium's T4 status, because his spell list is very good for a 4th level caster, basically keeping up with 6th level casters, but his amount of spell slots sucks. Moved it to blue T4 for now. Spiritualist is another weirdo. I am contemplating removing it from low T3, but I'm unsure. His spell selection is not bad and his phantom is a bit silly (but rather strong once you stop trying to attack and ask yourself what other kinds of stunts you can do with an intelligent companion whose feats, skills, and magic equipment you dictate, like a Kindness phantom on an Aid Another optimization build, giving your phantom a Ring of Spell Storing or two, UMD build, etc.), but he's limited by spells known too (and a Mnemonic Vestment will probably demand psychic scrolls, so good luck getting those) and he's stuck with his phantom's build, plus he's vulnerable to Intimidate checks (not to mention the dreaded Antagonize feat), although you can gear your way past that. Ultimately it seems like the phantom can also be your party face if you want it, with that scaling charisma bonus. Basically both these classes have me wondering whether they are or aren't red T3. Both of these classes would've been far better off as prepared casters, or having some kind of power to get an extra spell known in a pinch, considering how much of their magic is situational. Spiritualist has it worst in that respect because unless the GM lets you use arcane and divine scrolls or makes psychic scrolls readily available, you're going to have a bad time filling out that Mnemonic Vestment (and even then, scrolls of Raise Dead, etc. aren't cheap).
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on September 08, 2022, 11:48:10 AM
just curious, any way to get this thread pinned like the 3.x Tier List is?
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on September 09, 2022, 08:16:50 PM
Ask a mod. I don't really mind either way.

Also, moved Sylvan Trickster (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Sylvan%20Trickster) Rogue to T4. Witch hexes do a lot. Honestly, has the potential to get quite silly if you make an dex & int-based Rogue out of it (Elf (https://www.aonprd.com/RacesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Elf), Tiefling (https://www.aonprd.com/RacesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tiefling), Keen Kitsune (https://www.aonprd.com/RacesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Kitsune), Sylph (https://www.aonprd.com/RacesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sylph), whatever) with at least 18 in both dex and int, since that opens up Slumber and Ice Tomb which is not hard to land when you have Misfortune Cackle and maybe Evil Eye on top of that while simultaneously leaving your Rogue with at least 12 skill ranks per level and decent attack and AC. If you actually make an 18 int Rogue out of it, this is probably a high T4 at least. Honestly though, this is still not a good Rogue, as it does very little to enhance a Rogue's strengths, other than the DR/Cold Iron. It's mostly just playing at being a Witch without spellcasting (or a familiar) and a Rogue without trapfinding. But hey, hexes are useful. Eh, maybe I should take it off the list, seeing as while it's definitely higher tier than the Rogue, this archetype isn't really a good approach to anything.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on November 16, 2022, 02:32:22 PM
Reworked mundane tiers a bit. Fighter raised to red T4, since Dueling Gloves and Advanced Weapon Training further strengthen the fighter's martial abilities and the bucket of feats approach does mean that Fighters can push their martial prowess pretty far for the combat methodology of their choosing, whether it's a TWF whip build for massive reach, a TWF throwing build, an archer build, or a reach weapon build, topped off with things like Lunge. Tbh T5 Fighters tend to be melee fighters without reach which I'm going to grant is a bad Fighter build decent players shouldn't be doing, even if the sword & shield build is a classic (whip & shield, esp. with Improved Whip Mastery and Lunge, works though). Vigilante moved to blue T5 as a large bucket of feats is a bit more powerful than I'd previously given it credit for. I'm operating under the assumption you aren't playing a Stalker Vigilante, which is pretty lousy barring special stunts.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on November 17, 2022, 01:21:42 PM
one thing i wish the Vigilante had would have been a version of the feat Extra Rogue Talent
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Nanashi on November 17, 2022, 04:42:58 PM
IIRC they deliberately excluded that because many talents outright give two feats and it would be even more of a no brainer than other Extra X feats.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: zook1shoe on November 17, 2022, 04:44:21 PM
makes sense
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on November 17, 2022, 06:19:41 PM
Archetypes that damn near bolt a second class onto the Vigilante aside though, the Vigilante is really not that good. They're like a Fighter minus or Rogue minus for the most part. The Avenger (Fighter) build at least feels like a Fighter with better skills, if worse combat capabilities. Their social talents (https://aonprd.com/VigilanteTalents.aspx) are largely bland as well, although the Skill Familiarity talent at 9th level has some potential by giving a bonus and allowing the Vigilante to always take 10 on any 4 skills of his choosing, such as UMD, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Climb, Swim, Fly, Ride, and Handle Animal. The first two are pretty much must-haves (although the Wiscrani Ear (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wiscrani%20Ear) social trait already lets you take 10 on Perception). If you use a social talent to gain Orator (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Orator), Linguistics is also an option. UMD with the Always Prepared talent (which gives an upgraded Brilliant Planner (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Brilliant%20Planner) feat) and Pragmatic Activator (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Pragmatic%20Activator) magic trait is not bad either, as you can just take 1 minute to retrieve any scroll or wand you want. May as well add the Kalistocrat's Acumen social talent (which I generally regard as a joke, as at higher levels you can just Teleport, Shadow Walk, or Plane Shift to a proper shopping destination) just to upgrade Brilliant Planner further. Actually if you do this WBLmancer path with the ability to pull items of your choosing out of your hat, you are probably T3 or higher, but I generally consider that sort of thing to be more WBLmancy than a class build and WBLmancy is really a high optimization stunt (which raises tiers anyway). But, turns out with the right social talents you can make a pretty solid WBLmancer as a Vigilante. Hmm...

Ironically the Barbarian, which I have as T4, is a flat-out T6 the moment he runs out of rage. The only reason he's in T4 despite his limited rage rounds courtesy of PF is because PF is rocket tag edition and in level 1 (possibly also 2) you will be one-shotting most enemies even without rage and the rage rounds situation improves quickly in a few levels, not to mention that there is the Berserker of the Society (https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Berserker%20of%20the%20Society) combat trait and the +1 extra rage round favored class bonus for dwarves, half-orcs, orcs, and strix even before getting into stuff like Drunken Rager (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Barbarian%20Drunken%20Rager) archetype or a potion/casting of Rage (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rage) or Barbarian Chew (https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Barbarian%20Chew), so it's not hard to get a head start on the rage rounds issue, which even if you don't do anything typically solves itself around level 7 anyway. If you do a lot of combats per day though, the PF Barbarian will fall off in tiers without investment into more rage, but PF seems to enforce the limited encounters per day model more tightly due to the sheer amount of class features that will run out of gas (not just spellcasting) if you do that and the plethora of options that exist to let the party rest just about anywhere in any state instead of needing to set up camp and sleep for 8 unimpeded hours.

Honestly though, the rounds/day mechanic added to PF Barbarians was a mistake, and one that immediately shot all those rage powers that give skill bonuses in the foot. The entire Barbarian class runs off of its rage class feature and is blatantly intended to never be fighting without it, so presenting rage as a limited resource with limited rounds is just stupid. It really just strongly encourages rocket tag and limited encounters per day playstyles further, makes the game mechanics even more combat-focused than they already are, and it is frankly absurd that a level 5 Barbarian, if he has a whopping 16 constitution, is only capable of raging for one and a half minutes in an entire day unless a Wizard or Bard decides to cast Rage on him and concentrates for a whole day. Bards also had the rounds/day accounting shift made and it was a bad mechanic for them too. Not only did Lingering Performance (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Lingering%20Performance) become a necessary feat tax for all Bards, but it also just killed the ability of Bards to use non-combat performances, like Inspire Competence, Fascinate, or even using Inspire Courage to inspire battlefields, defenders in a siege, etc. unless the Bard uses a Tuned Bowstring (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Tuned%20Bowstring) and never stops shooting so he can drag out his performance endlessly. Both of these classes also saw that there was no longer any resource cost for ending and restarting a new performance each round (what is referred to as "cycling"). As such, Barbarians are now in the habit of rage-cycling every round (sometimes multiple times in a single round) in order to keep using once per rage rage powers and Bards will cycle Inspire Greatness on the party for fresh temporary HD each round. Probably the class to suffer the worst from rounds per day resource pools is the Stalwart Defender (https://www.aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stalwart%20Defender). It has no way of obtaining extra defensive stance rounds (short of obtaining more levels through another prestige class) and it's a class which is obviously supposed to be used for defensive playstyles (which drag out combats) except it runs out of defensive stance rounds with a quickness if you actually take the slow and sure route by playing defense instead of going full rocket tag.
Title: Updated tiers a bit
Post by: Power on February 03, 2023, 04:39:00 PM
Moved Cavalier and Samurai to red T4. I'd underrated the challenge ability and order boons. Also, with Chain Challenge (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Chain%20Challenge) and/or Monstrous Mount (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Monstrous%20Mount) the class becomes more potent (the same goes for Unconquerable Resolve (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Unconquerable%20Resolve) for Samurais). Honestly, with a 1 level Sohei (https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Monk%20Sohei) Monk dip for Mounted Skirmisher (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Mounted%20Skirmisher) as a Monk bonus feat (which ignores all prereqs), the class is pretty strong.
Title: Re: Power's Tier List for Pathfinder
Post by: Power on June 11, 2023, 08:46:01 AM
Hm, still feel a bit weird about Slayer (https://www.aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Slayer) vs Fighter (https://www.aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Fighter), as the Slayer largely simply feels like a better Fighter, getting a ton of bonus feats (and can skip feat prereqs for Ranger Combat Style, in case you want to do a 20 str dualwielding build, for instance), same HD, same starting wealth, and same BAB, but better saves (reflex and fort), much better skill ranks (6+int instead of 2+int), and can be the party trapfinder. It doesn't get weapon training (or Gloves of Dueling (https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Gloves%20of%20Dueling)), but it does get studied target, sneak attack, and quarry, and it doesn't get armor training either.

I guess the Fighter tops in damage if he uses Weapon Spirit and Gloves of Dueling, maybe even Abundant Tactics (Barroom Brawler (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Barroom%20Brawler)) for Dedicated Adversary (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dedicated%20Adversary) on command, although a sneak attacking Slayer (and it doesn't need to land SA, tbh) hits hard too.

I dunno, thoughts? Fighter has a high damage ceiling but Slayer seems to have the better overall package while largely matching the Fighter for feats.

EDIT: Eh, reckon they're both fine where they are. This seems to be more like "not all low T4s are the same."