Affiliations Discussion

[Garryl]

Killraven unsanctioned job thingy should clarify that it only counts unsanctioned jobs performed while you're already a member. Otherwise, any two-bit thief will probably be hundreds in the negatives before even finding the recruitment poster.

Edit: To clarify a bunch of things, how easy are the various affiliation scores supposed to be to get to, and around what level are you supposed to meet them trivially/with some effort/with heavy focus?

[sirpercival]

Killraven unsanctioned job thingy should clarify that it only counts unsanctioned jobs performed while you're already a member. Otherwise, any two-bit thief will probably be hundreds in the negatives before even finding the recruitment poster.

Edit: To clarify a bunch of things, how easy are the various affiliation scores supposed to be to get to, and around what level are you supposed to meet them trivially/with some effort/with heavy focus?

Yes.  And, um... I dunno?  I've never played with affiliations before, really.

[Garryl]

Don't forget to mark the repeatable affiliation score rewards as such (I think it's usually something like "+X each time" or are under a "Multiple Use" category). If you want to see some of the published affiliations to check yourself with, there are two online (and a few more that got lost in the 4E transition). But I think I've mentioned those already before.

By the way, score 3 and lower is supposed to mean that you are a member of the group, just not a very significant member. People who aren't members of the affiliation flat-out aren't members, regardless of their score.

Some comments. Most of the affiliations appear unfinished, having either insufficient ways of gaining affiliation score or minimal affiliation benefits.

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Brotherhood of Redemption
- Very few methods of gaining score.
- No benefit at 4. Minimal benefits afterwards.
- That whole Atonement for score, and then giving it out at 31+ thing.

Delver's Guild
- Very few methods of gaining score.
- No benefit at 4. Minimal benefits afterwards.
- The best way up this guild is to become an assassin of its highest ranking members. Wait for them to go in, kill them, pull them out for rezzing. Because otherwise, how many high-ranking members are going to die that often? At level 10, you need 1 rez to become only a rookie, and 11 to become a deepguide.

Inverted Pyramid
- No benefit until 11. Benefits probably too good at 21+.
- Methods of gaining score are too narrow. You get them by being a stock-standard spellcaster who does nothing special. And then that only counts for 9 points + 1/2 ECL.
- Best way of entering seems to me to be to play an Elf. As a child, buy spellbooks (empty ones, of course). Let them age for 300 years, and voila, you're a master without any work just when you're starting off your adventuring career. Other similarly long-lived races also work.

City Watch
- Lots of work (60 hours/week leaves little time for adventuring). Lopsided benefits. Needs lots and lots of commendations to get anywhere.
- Very few methods of gaining score.

Sisterhood of Silence
- Requirements seem hyper-specific. Lawful only I could get. LN-only seems too much. Being female should boost your affiliation score, not be a requirement. Otherwise, how do you get the male eunuchs?
- Money/magic item donation is just too easy at higher levels.
- Needs more benefits. Having only 3 relevant ranks leaves too little gradation.

The Magi
- No benefit until 9. Benefits probably too good.
- Methods of gaining score are too narrow. You get them by being a stock-standard spellcaster who does nothing special.
- Since you automatically become apprenticed (and have an apprentice later on) by being a member, doing so shouldn't give you score. Or, if it does give you score, it shouldn't be granted by being a member.

Praesidio Arcanum
- Gishy. Perhaps a narrow focus, but okay.
- Penalties for failure seem a bit high.
- Methods of gaining score are too narrow. You get them by being a stock-standard spellcaster who does nothing special, other than the BaB part (which is a small component anyways) and maybe a couple of offside skills. The basic gish principle nabs all of it. And after all of that, there's nothing left to do other than avoid Red Lotus members like the plague. At least you can actually get a good score with this guild (17 + 1/2 ECL).

Church of the Dark God
- Needs some more ways of gaining score. But it's good that you already have that repeatable thing that encourages the affiliation's goals (destroying heretics). It still needs some things that aren't just a question of whether you're a divine full-spellcaster  or not, though.
- Money's too easy a thing at high levels.
- Nothing until 11.


... More to come later.
Edit: It's later.

Chorrun Char
- Narrow score boosts, auto-spellcaster, yadda yadda. (Tired of this yet?)
- 23+'s benefits need to be better defined. How's the Dragonne Cohort a cohort? What if you already have a cohort. It's probably too powerful, regardless.
- 30+'s benefits could be a bit strong, if you build for it, but are more likely entirely useless. This should not be an affiliation benefit.
- Not everyone (even arcane spellcasters since you're using homebrew) uses Int or Cha for spells/day. Might want to let any score boost it.
- Any reason the Calasper needs to be higher CR than you? None of the other affiliations have similar requirements on their equivalent score bonuses for killing.

Killraven Crime League
- Good start for the score boosts. 5 skills is on the high side, but feels right for a skillmonkey-based affiliation.
- 11+'s bribery for affiliation should be listed as an affiliation score penalty in the score boost table, rather than being hidden in the benefits.
- 30+ should be tweaked. The benefits are... unusual. 4 8th-level cohorts can be great if you can somehow finagle the affiliation at 10th level or lower. After that, their fixed level rapidly obsoletes them. 21+ has a similar issue, but has that skill boost that works just fine.

[sirpercival]

Thanks so much G... I've been worried about these.  Editing shall come, when you are finished!

[Garryl]

Got down to Killraven, but I don't really feel like doing any more tonight.

[Garryl]

Another thought about the Brotherhood of Redemption. They deal with redeeming evil, but any evil done carries nasty score penalties. Anyone redeemed will likely be hundreds, if not thousands, in the negatives.

Suggested alternatives:

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Requirements: Good alignment

One-Time
Character Level: +1/2 level
5+ ranks in Heal, Diplomacy, Sense Motive: +1/skill
10+ ranks in any of Heal, Diplomacy, Sense Motive: +1/skill
Ability to cast divine spells: +1
Has levels in Paladin, Apostle of Justice, Emissary of Barachiel, or Whiteguard: +1 (swap these classes to whatever suits your fancy, I'm just promoting my own stuff)
Alignment changes to good from evil through the character's own volition: +3

Alignment changes from good or neutral to evil through the character's own volition (first time): -5
Worships a deity: -1

Multiple Use
Redeems an evil creature, taking significant part in its change to a good alignment: +1 +1/4 creature's CR
Redeems an evil creature, taking significant part in its change to a neutral alignment: +1/6 creature's CR
Stops an evil creature from corrupting a good creature to evil: +1

Knowingly aids in the fall to evil of a good-aligned creature: -3
Unknowingly aids in the fall to evil of a good-aligned creature: -1
Alignment changes from good or neutral to evil through the character's own volition (each time beyond the first): -2

[Jackinthegreen]

Ability to cast divine spells: +1

Worships a deity: -1

Um, what?  These two nullify each other for quite a few characters, and you can't expect all divine casters not to worship a deity.  Perhaps saying that worshiping an evil deity would be the -1, and a good +1 or something?

[Garryl]

a) The Brotherhood of Redemption is specifically described as being tolerated by the Church of the Dark God because they DON'T espouse the tenets of any deities.
b) Most divine spellcasters in this setting who aren't evil won't be worshipping any deities, anyways. Divine spellcasters who worship deities other than the Dark God suffer rather significant spellcasting penalties. Note that the penalty only applies to spellcasters who actually worship deities. So, this being Gratis, I think it's pretty reasonable for most divine spellcasters to not worship a deity.

Besides, these are just suggestions. Sirp's got the final call, after all.

Edit: On a related note, perhaps the setting-specific house rules should be listed in the house rules thread instead of buried in the setting info thread. Keep the rules all in one place.

[Jackinthegreen]

I guess I interpreted it slightly differently.  I took "The Church of the Dark God tolerates the existence of the Brotherhood since they do not espouse a particular religion..." to mean that they don't favor any particular deity, but do have their own kind of doctrine.  I can't see them looking down upon someone for believing in a good deity that works with their views, but maybe you know more about the setting than I do.

[sirpercival]

Edit: On a related note, perhaps the setting-specific house rules should be listed in the house rules thread instead of buried in the setting info thread. Keep the rules all in one place.

Good call, will do.

As for the Brotherhood vs worshipping thing:

I guess I interpreted it slightly differently.  I took "The Church of the Dark God tolerates the existence of the Brotherhood since they do not espouse a particular religion..." to mean that they don't favor any particular deity, but do have their own kind of doctrine.  I can't see them looking down upon someone for believing in a good deity that works with their views, but maybe you know more about the setting than I do.

This is correct.  I'll tinker with what you gave me, G.

To all, I'll start with the affiliation edits today.

[Garryl]

Ok, time to look at the Delvers. Here are some ideas.

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One-Time
Character Level: +1/2 level
5+ ranks in Survival, Know (Dungeon): +1/skill
10+ ranks in any of Survival, Know (Dungeon): +1/skill
BaB +5 or greater: +1
Track or Endurance feats: +1/feat
Character has darkvision, tremorsense, blindsense, or blindsight: +1
Maintains a waystation within the Dungeon for guild use: +2

Multiple Use
Clears the majority of dangers from a previously unknown section of the Dungeon, making it safe for mapping or further exploration: +1
Thoroughly maps a previously unknown section of the Dungeon: +2
Recovers the remains of a high-ranking Delver for raising: +2

Actively inhibits exploration of the Dungeon: -4
Falsifies information about the Dungeon to the guild: -1

Stiff rank (4+) should give access to the waystations (probably just the locations of some of the ones near where the character will be exploring).

[sirpercival]

Ok, time to look at the Delvers. Here are some ideas.

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One-Time
Character Level: +1/2 level
5+ ranks in Survival, Know (Dungeon): +1/skill
10+ ranks in any of Survival, Know (Dungeon): +1/skill
BaB +5 or greater: +1
Track or Endurance feats: +1/feat
Character has darkvision, tremorsense, blindsense, or blindsight: +1
Maintains a waystation within the Dungeon for guild use: +2

Multiple Use
Clears the majority of dangers from a previously unknown section of the Dungeon, making it safe for mapping or further exploration: +1
Thoroughly maps a previously unknown section of the Dungeon: +2
Recovers the remains of a high-ranking Delver for raising: +2

Actively inhibits exploration of the Dungeon: -4
Falsifies information about the Dungeon to the guild: -1

Stiff rank (4+) should give access to the waystations (probably just the locations of some of the ones near where the character will be exploring).

Awesome!  It's such a huge relief to have someone helping me with those...  I'm going to nominate you for most helpful homebrew critiques.

[littha]

On affiliations:

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Chorrun Char seem to have some weird mix of focus on dragons and focus on magic (which several other affiliations do). So much so that planar dragons/gem dragons/other true dragons would be of a much lower rank than a kobold sorcerer.

Its benefits also do nothing unless you are going into magic which begs the question why would you enter Chorrun Char when you could join one of the other magic centric affiliations much easier.

[Garryl]

City Watch here. I'm skipping Inverted Pyramid for now because I can't get a good sense of them other than "mysterious wizards".
I'm not entirely sure where the Watch fits into politics and how the criminal factions and the rebellion relate to the Watch, so please tweak those parts.

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One-Time
Character Level: +1/2 level
5+ ranks in Diplomacy, Know (Local): +1/skill
BaB +5 or greater: +1
BaB +10 or greater: +2
Lawful alignment: +1
Urban Tracking feat: +1
Member of the City Watch for 3+ years: +1
Member of the City Watch for 10+ years: +1
Participates in at least 60 hours per week of patrolling or other active duty: +2
Able to pull favors within the Magi or the Church of the Dark God: +2

Routinely causes friction between the Watch and the Magi or the Church of the Dark God: -3
Routinely causes friction between the Watch and any of the other more influential groups in the empire: -1

Multiple Use
Receives commendation from a high-ranking watch officer: +2
Receives commendation from the Commissar him/her/itself: +3
Turns an informer from within the Killraven Crime League, the Calasper Crime Family, or the Red Lotus: +1

Causes the Watch public embarrassment: -2
Discovered to be aiding significant criminal enterprises: -5
Discovered to be aiding the rebellion: -10

As I said before, I'd remove the requirement of 60 hours/week of patrolling. It's a pretty large time constraint for adventurers. Instead, I'd move it to one of the score bonuses.

On a related note, +2 attack +1d6 damage vs nonhumanoids and confirmed non-citizens means you're getting boosts against almost everyone (only Humanoids are exempt, and only if they're citizens).
I might also add something for the Lieutenant rank (removing charges against citizens is nice, but lacks the mechanical advantage, if very minor, that affiliations are supposed to grant).

[Garryl]

Skipping the Sisterhood of Silence for now. Expect considerable overlap between this and the Watch.
Technically, there should be two versions of the affiliation: One for the silent sisters, and one for their eunuchs.

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Requirements: Arcane spellcasting.

One-Time
Character Level: +1/2 level
5+ ranks in Know (Arcana), Spellcraft: +1/skill
10+ ranks in Know (Arcana), Spellcraft: +1/skill
Can cast or shape 3rd level or higher arcane spells or formulae: +1
Can cast or shape 5th level or higher arcane spells or formulae: +2
10+ residuum points: +1
Has a metamagic or metaformula (whatever the spellshape version is called) feat: +1/feat
Has created previously undiscovered arcane spells: +1 +1/2 level of highest level spell created

Caught using unlicensed magic of 3rd level or higher: -1 per level of highest spell level used.
Has no metamagic or metaformula or metawhatever feats: -2
Discovered to be a member of the rebellion: -20

Multiple Use
Member of a High Arcana games winning team: +8
Sponsored a High Arcana games winning team: +5
Publicly defeated a member of the rebellion in a crushing or humiliating manner: +1/4 CR of rebellion member defeated

Openly criticizes the Magi: -3

... to be continued?

[sirpercival]

This is the Magi?

[Garryl]

Yeah, Magi. I kinda walked away in the middle of that, although I don't think I have anything to add right now.

Edit:
For the Delvers, I'd remove the affiliation penalty for killing other Delvers. Most of that should fall under actively preventing exploration of the Dungeon, anyways, and it should be possible to fight other Delvers (especially what with the High Arcana games). I'd also like to see a more granular granting of benefits (see the revised Brotherhood of Redemption for a good example).

For the Watch, you've got +1/feat on the Lawful alignment line.
I might only give the 100g/month salary at Constable when you actually do some active duty (say, 30-40 hours/week; the Watch appreciates individuals willing to put in the extra effort, but not enough to pay them more).
Sergeant and Lieutenant need revamping. Having some fixed-level cohorts just isn't fun if that's all you get.

[Garryl]

Praesidio Arcanum, the gish guild.

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Requirements: Caster level 1st, martial weapon proficiency.

One-Time
Character Level: +1/2 level
5+ ranks in Intimidate, Gather Information, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device: +1/skill
Can cast 3rd level or higher arcane spells or use lesser invocations: +1
Can cast 5th level or higher arcane spells or use greater invocations: +1
BaB +5 or higher: +1
BaB +10 or higher: +2
Able to cast arcane spells or use invocations without suffering from arcane spell failure while wearing some sort of armor or shield: +1
Double agent planted within the rebellion for less than 1 year: +2
Double agent planted within the rebellion for 1 year or more: +4

Discovered to be a member of the rebellion: -20

Multiple Use
Kills or captures a Red Lotus cell: +1/4 CR of highest CR cell member +1/4 total members of the cell
Reveals a traitor within the Praesidio Arcanum or the City Watch: +1
Reveals an unlicensed spellcaster capable of casting 3rd level or higher spells: +1/3 of highest level spell the unlicensed spellcaster can cast

Openly criticizes the Magi: -3
Unwittingly aids the rebellion's plots: -2

[Garryl]

Church of the Dark God
I'm having a bit of trouble with this one.

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One-Time
Character Level: +1/2 level
5+ ranks in Know (religion), Intimidate: +1/skill
Able to cast divine spells: +1
Can cast 3rd level or higher divine spells: +1
Can cast 5th level or higher divine spells: +1
Lawful alignment: +1
Has at least one domain or Devotion feat matching one of the Dark God's domains: +2

Chaotic alignment: -1
Heretic: -5

Multiple Use
Reveals and destroys a heretic: +1/4 creature's CR


Needs a whole lot more.

[TravelLog]

Couple more for the Church of the Dark God:

One Time:
Worship the Dark God: +1 (yes, it's obvious)
Evil Alignment: +1
Become a full member of the Dark God's clergy: +2

Good Alignment: -3
Heretic IMO should be at least -10, if not -20

Multiple Use:
Slay a good outsider: +1
Slay the divine emissary of a deity other than the Dark God: +4
Sanctify (or desecrate, depending on your perspective) the shrine of another deity in the Dark God's name: +2
Perform a devious act in order to advance the Church's agenda: +1

Convert a creature to another deity: -3
Each domain chosen not offered by the Dark God: -2