Author Topic: The Politics Thread  (Read 141250 times)

Offline Libertad

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The Politics Thread
« on: December 22, 2012, 02:59:08 AM »
Because the "Elect 2012" one is over, and I want this thread to be more general.

I'll start off:

The National Rifle Association speaks about the Newtown school shooting.  Basically it boils down to "put security guards in all schools."  Also, they say that video games lead to more murders than firearms.

Keep in mind that the NRA aggressively pushed for laws to allow adults to carry firearms (concealed and otherwise) on school property.  Their legislation explicitly makes it easier for criminals to obtain firearms and kill people.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 03:08:12 AM by Libertad »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2012, 07:31:19 AM »
But of course. They have big connections to the industries that make and sell weapons. As long as it isn't their own families getting shot, anything is an excuse for them to push the sale of more weapons (and all the extras like ammo and shooting range fees and whatnot).


Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2012, 09:52:22 AM »
Literally the ONLY effects of background check laws would be 1: criminals and the mentally unstable would not have access to legal firearms and 2: it would (actually....may) take a little bit longer to get your gun.  So I really don't know what the point is of hating them.  Does the NRA think that all (future) gun owners would fail a background check?  Did the NRA seriously just say that all gun owners are mentally unstable and/or criminals?

In an article I read on this, the NRA said something along the lines of "criminals would still be able to get guns via the black market.  So why do we even need these laws?  They won't solve the problem completely, therefore we shouldn't do them."  Hey internet, what kind of argument is that, obviously?
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Offline linklord231

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2012, 12:54:48 PM »
In an article I read on this, the NRA said something along the lines of "criminals would still be able to get guns via the black market.  So why do we even need these laws?  They won't solve the problem completely, therefore we shouldn't do them."  Hey internet, what kind of argument is that, obviously?

That's a bit of a misrepresentation of the argument.  It's more like "Criminals will still be able to get guns, but it makes it more difficult for average people to obtain them, and thus more difficult to defend yourself against a criminal trying to shoot you.  If it's easier for criminals to get guns than it is for civilians, then criminals will be the most common people with guns.  If criminals are most common people with guns, then public safety suffers."
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2012, 01:23:08 PM »
That's not the argument that they used.  In the article, it was specifically "this won't stop all of it, so why do it?"

And besides, it won't make it harder for normal people to get guns.  Normal people will pass the background check easily.  Unless by "more difficult" you mean it will make it take longer.  Which it might (emphasis on might, "longer" here may just mean an extra half hour at the store, any waiting period is a different law altogether), but even if it did, if you're worried about your safety so badly that waiting an extra couple days or even a week without a gun might hurt you, you need to go to the police for protective custody or something.

PREEDIT: I found the article again, and it wasn't the NRA head who said it, it was a law professor.  He said this, taken from the article.

"You would eliminate the category of private sales where an honest person unwittingly sold a gun to someone who seemed trustworthy but was not," said Nicholas Johnson, a law professor at Fordham University who has researched firearms laws. "But the people you're worried about are the people who are trading guns already in the black market. I don't think anyone should have any illusions about this solving the problem."

So yeah, it's a nonsense argument.  "It will eliminate this one thing that you want to eliminate, but it won't eliminate this mostly separate thing that won't be affected.  Guess we best not do it!"*

Basically what this type of law would do is this: prevent honest people from selling guns to dishonest people.  Currently if you fail a background check to get a gun you can just buy one privately, and legally.  You might have to drive to a different state, but whoopdy-do.  Big deal.

EDIT:* To be fair, he may have been trying to claim that all criminals and mentally unstable people buy their guns illegally, so this law would do nothing, but that's another type of ridiculous.  Again.  These laws will not prevent law abiding citizens to buy guns.  They are intended to help prevent, deter and complicate the process of purchasing guns for criminals.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 01:25:55 PM by dman11235 »
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Offline veekie

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2012, 01:44:15 PM »
No sense making it too easy for casual criminals to get them. I imagine there is a pretty sizable gap between 'would fail background check' and 'has access to black market for firearms'. And really, for home defense, you generally don't just rush out and buy one, you would purchase, practice and generally keep one around with no specific urgency.

Advocating armed guards in schools is pretty retarded though. Odds are it'd increase the risks of an accident with a firearm because of the sheer activity and presence of kids, and more importantly(though it'd win zero points in politics), it's a flashy, costly solution that doesn't help the root causes, people turning to crime because of circumstances and upbringing, mentally unstable or disturbed people who could use more care and guidance.

Maybe it's just me, but politics could use a lot more open cost-benefit analysis being practiced with policies.
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Offline Libertad

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2012, 03:15:45 PM »
As for background checks, the NRA is comprised of anti-government extremists who fear that a big, overarching government could become tyrannical at any minute (especially under a Democrat), and that the only way to ensure a populist revolt is to have as many people with access to firearms as possible.  The government's ability to track weapons, they believe, can be used against them to track rebel groups.  Their definition of firearms includes assault weapons, flamethrowers, grenade launchers, the works.  They're extra nutty in that many of the people that they think are violent extremists includes environmentalists and feminists.

They believe that if the US became a tyranny, they and other white Christian conservatives will become like the Viet Cong, under-powered and under-equipped, but with home terrain advantage and "the people" on their side.

This is dumb because the US government's national security organizations are so big and powerful that all the assault rifles in the world won't stop them.  They have tanks, some of the best-trained special forces units in the world, secret CIA torture prisons where people disappear off the face of the Earth, and a grossly inflated budget which includes 42% of all the world's military spending.  A bunch of guys armed with guns aren't going to mount a successful coup on the off chance that the Obama Administration decides to follow in the footsteps of Josef Stalin.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 03:39:49 PM by Libertad »

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2012, 03:29:54 PM »
+1 veekie.  Also, how about a rival NRA?

Continuing on the armed guards thing:

Let's assume this isn't a balls out crazy suggestion for a minute.  Let's say that if we did it, it would work.  Obviously it won't (there was an armed guard at Columbine when it happened...), but this is fantasy, right, we can pretend.  Now, pure cost.  1: who pays for the hardware?  Guns aren't cheap.  So you need to either hire people who have guns (what?) or supply them with service firearms.  And they need certification training, upkeep, regular pay, ammo, etc., etc. all placed on our notoriously over-funded schools, right?  2: what kind of gun are they going to have?  Most law enforcement officers have pistols.  Weak (but reliable) ones even.  Are you seriously going to arm your staff with assault rifles?  If not, how would that help in a situation like what happened in Connecticut or at Columbine?  The officers would have been tremendously outgunned.  Assault rifles?  Kids are going to have to walk past guards wielding assault rifles every day?  Really?  Or are you going to build security bunkers with the big arms, and have them carry around pistols?  How about shotguns?  Those are used in crowd control, almost exclusively in law enforcement, so no.  But, one of the first things the VP of the NRA said was "if the principal had an assault rifle, it wouldn't have happened." so we know they want assault rifles.  How laughable of an idea is this?  3: How many guards are at the schools?  And at which schools?  All of them?  Even the schools of 50 kids k-12?  That tags even MORE onto the cost of this program.  So...where are they stationed, at the entrance?  And can people freely bring guns onto school property?  If so to both of them, good luck armed guards protecting the kids currently being shot at 300 feet away.  And if not allowed to bring guns onto school property, why can't they just hide their guns?  Do we now have to search everyone who enters a school?  So even more invasion of privacy? There's so many flaws in this plan I cannot.....I just....It's balls out crazy.

@Libertad:

yeah....yeah....

do note that they would never say "it's so we can form a resistance if you guys become tyrannical".  Some of the more open ones will say "we need assault weapons because the people need to be able to defend their country", notice the phrasing difference, but most of them will say "I need my guns for hunting and sport".  Because that one is popularly accepted.  And who needs a military grade weapon for hunting???  I mean come on people!  Military grade weapons are worse for hunting than sport guns!

I should note: I am perfectly okay with guns.  Guns are sweet.  Just...you don't need to be able to do the things that the NRA wants.  If you can pass a background check, fine, here's your gun, go have fun.  Be safe and go have fun.  In a safe place.  not in a public area.  You want a gun for defense?  And you somehow passed a background check mister paranoid (violence has been steadily decreasing, and it started relatively low)?  Great, you don't need something bigger than a pistol on you ever.  If you would actually need something bigger, you would not have passed the background check.  Guaranteed.  But guns are sweet.  They use explosions to move things.  How is that not awesome?  You just don't need one designed for combat.  And you shouldn't have one if you're a criminal or are mentally unstable.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 03:39:59 PM by dman11235 »
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Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2012, 03:45:28 PM »
I think some facts would be useful in this discussion, as truth is preferable to truthiness.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html
Quote
Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.

According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."

The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.

Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

While many guns are taken off the street when people are arrested and any firearms in their possession are confiscated, a new study shows how easily arrestees believe they could illegally acquire another firearm. Supported by the National Institute of Justice and based on interviews with those recently arrested, the study acknowledges gun theft is common, with 13 percent of all arrestees interviewed admitting that they had stolen a gun. However a key finding is that "the illegal market is the most likely source" for these people to obtain a gun. "In fact, more than half the arrestees say it is easy to obtain guns illegally," the report states. Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it.

ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF. What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers. This means examining FFL paperwork to see where their guns are coming from, and making sure that those guns are being sold legally. But he says, "Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market."

Enjoy your information.

Quote
Military grade weapons are worse for hunting than sport guns!

Do you know what an SKS rifle is? It is a Soviet rifle designed for the Red Army in 1943. It fires the 7.62x39mm round - coincidentally, the same round fired by the AK-47. It is a .30 caliber round with similar ballistic performance to the .30-30 Winchester round used in many lever action hunting rifles. So yes, you can use a military grade weapon for hunting. Several American hunting rifles are now chambered in 7.62x39mm, such as the Mini-30.

Actually, remember when I said the SKS uses the same ammunition as an AK-47? Turns out, you can hunt with those too.

You know what else makes for good hunting rifles? Bolt action rifles chambered in heavy calibers like http://7.62x54mm, 8mm Mauser, .303 Enfield, or .30'06 Springfield... all of which were used in World Wars 1 and 2. And, of course, rifles for 7.62x51mm NATO are used around the world, and are popular in hunting. (These are, incidentally, much more powerful rounds than 7.62x39mm, or the 5.56mm NATO round that the M-16 uses.)

Quote
You want a gun for defense?  And you somehow passed a background check mister paranoid (violence has been steadily decreasing, and it started relatively low)?
As someone who has had friends in abusive domestic relationships, targeted by stalkers, and etc, I think you are not considering the entire picture. If I were in the mood to troll you, I would probably use this time to imply that you are considering things from a privileged white male perspective, but since I respect you as a person, I will instead argue that people who want to have a gun around for self defense are no more paranoid than people who learn martial arts for self defense.

Quote
You just don't need one designed for combat.
Pretty much all guns were designed for combat.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 04:16:53 PM by Solo »
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Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2012, 03:58:39 PM »
If I had to choose a handgun or shotgun for home defense I think the shotgun wins everytime.

http://news.yahoo.com/fact-checking-nra-press-conference-185542748.html

Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2012, 04:07:23 PM »
Shotguns do have the advantage of taking ammo that won't go through drywall as easily as most pistol ammo.
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Offline Libertad

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2012, 04:53:55 PM »
Firearms for self-defense are valid choices, and rubber bullets and beanbag ammunition are viable alternatives to lethal ammunition.  Even owning a replica gun can be enough to scare away the common robber if he decides to stake out your house (many burglars in the US are unarmed, as the penalty for breaking and entering with a gun is much larger than doing so without it).

The NRA goes further than this, and wants people to be able to carry guns on school property, destroy all evidence of gun sales, and allows people with mental instabilities and criminal records to purchase firearms without a background check.  All of these goals have nothing to do with home defense and contribute to the huge surge of gun crimes which happen in the US every day.

I don't have as much of a problem with a guy owning a shotgun and keeping it at home.  I do have a problem with a guy being able to carry this shotgun anywhere he wants.

Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2012, 05:04:15 PM »
Quote
All of these goals have nothing to do with home defense and contribute to the huge surge of gun crimes which happen in the US every day.
You have made a objective claim. Would you kindly back it up with statistical data?
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Offline bhu

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2012, 05:06:56 PM »
Wasn't entirely disagreeing, but burglary isn't what I worry about.  Home invasions are a major problem where I live.  They knock on the door, shoot whoever answers, then swarm the house.  Usually they put a round in everyone present so they can't identify them later.

It's why I have a shotgun loaded with #4 buck, and the shortest barrel I'm allowed to have legally (along with a few other mods).  Burglary encounters where I am are basically rocket tag :(

Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2012, 05:12:00 PM »
bhu, you are paranoid if you think you will be invaded in this period of declining crime rates. All you need to do in the event of home invasion is call the police, who will arrive in a few minutes to set up a perimeter around your house and draw a chalk outline around your body.
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Offline altpersona

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2012, 05:12:09 PM »
im a gun guy.

im not a NRA guy. i dont like anyone or group that bribes politicians.

iv not read every word in the thread yet, but.

lots of nice thought out stuff in this thread, that iv read so far.

no one argument for or against is perfect, that iv seen. and thats probably the crux of the situation.

no legislation is gonna stop crime, its pretty well the exact opposite, legislation defines crime.



im in the tyranny camp. the second amendment is about defense from government.

im not concerned about nazi or stalin like gun removal. but i remember ruby ridge and waco, i 'remember' kent state, ft sumpter and bunker hill. 

i dont expect to lead a revolt. i dont expect to 'win' vs. a swat team.

i do expect to put up the best effort i can when it comes to it.
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Offline altpersona

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2012, 05:14:39 PM »
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 05:17:08 PM by altpersona »
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Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2012, 05:16:26 PM »
I am unsure of the significance of that link.
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Offline altpersona

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2012, 05:18:47 PM »
from the first link

"With a crime rate of 72 per one thousand residents, Columbus has one of the highest crime rates in America compared to all communities of all sizes - from the smallest towns to the very largest cities. One's chance of becoming a victim of either violent or property crime here is one in 14. Within Ohio, more than 97% of the communities have a lower crime rate than Columbus."

he may be paranoid, but its not unreasonable to be so.  (columbus sucks)
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Offline Solo

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Re: The Politics Thread
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2012, 05:21:40 PM »
I'm not seriously calling him paranoid, if you payed close attention to my language.
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