Author Topic: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind  (Read 15097 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« on: October 24, 2014, 04:09:54 PM »
Purple Mage Heretic


   
Humanoids indeed haven't changed at all since my days in the temple. How weak and rash, always needing protection! How foolish and self-centered, always prioritizing their own over all others! What a narrow-minded superficial, greedy, and unjust boor you are! How self-righteous, you're a drag on us all! Now, namusan! In the name of the Three Treasures!
-Byakuren Hijiri, Purple Mage Arch Heretic

Something that all  humanoids share but few will admit, is that they actually hate themselves. They cover their own natural bodies in fancy clothes, they're always trying to extend their ridiculosuly short natural life spans, always seeking new sources of power to overcome their own many weakensess. Banding together for strength in numbers. Praying in worship for gods. Studying the secrets of magic. Or so some say.

The Purple Mage Heretic is an humanoid that after trying all of those methods has realized the terrible truth and fallen into complete despair, but then understood there's a pretty simple solution: to don't be an humanoid anymore. To make alliances with the truly strong, the so-called monsters, to acquire their power and don't need to worry about the feeble humanoid weaknesses anymore.

Still a Purple Mage Heretic believes to be in the right path even as they make dealings with monsters floating atop piles of corpses of her own innocent kind, and will claim to still be following her previous religion, normally Bhuddism, to be following the true path of enlightenment even should they find themselves sealed in the deepest burning pits of Hell.


I'll save the oppressed monsters.
That is my chosen calling as a magician.

BECOMING A PURPLE MAGE HERETIC

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills: 10+ Ranks in Spellcraft.
Feats: Forbidden School (Cosmic Mind).
Race: Any humanoid. It's ok if you later receive a template that changes your creature type later as long as you keep your original race's traits and body shape.
Special: Able to Initiate 3rd level maneuvers, 1st level arcane spells, 1st level divine spells. Must have let one non-evil humanoid die in order to help one evil monster.


Class Skills
The Purple Mage Heretic's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Craft, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Swim, Use Magic Device.
Skills Points at Each  Level 2 + int mod

Hit Dice: d4


Level
Base
Attack Bonus
Fort
Save
Ref
Save
Will
Save

Special
1st+0+0+0+2Sutra Scroll
2nd+1+0+0+3First Treasure
3rd+1+1+1+3Filled with Light
4th+2+1+1+4Resist you with all My Might
5th+2+1+1+4Namusan, Second Treasure
6th+3+2+2+5Undefined Fantastic Object
7th+3+2+2+5Monk on the Offensive
8th+4+2+2+6Demonic Chief Priest of the Monster Temple, Third Treasure
9th+4+3+3+6Fires of Hokkai
10th+5+3+3+7Great Sealed Magician
11th+5+3+3+7Emotional Skyscrapper
12th+6+4+4+8Acharya who Surpassed the Primates

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Purple Mage Heretic gains no new proficiencies.

Sutra Scroll: The Purple Mage Heretic transforms her first spellbook, Holy Symbol and a spell component pouch (plus a Magical Furnace or Magical Grimoire) in a shining scroll of energy that works as all of those items while held in all hands. If her arcane spellcasting is spontaneous, then she can imprint her known spells in the Sutra Scroll instead of a spellbook. It weights nothing and is indestructible. Purple Mage levels progress up to one martial progression, one arcane spellcasting progression and one divine spellcasting progression. In addition you can count your base CL as being equal to your HD for both your progressing arcane and divine progressions. However the Purple Mage must also hold the Sutra Scroll to use her spells and maneuvers, and simultaneously recite its writings, thus unable to use Silent megamagic, or to use her maneuvers if under a Silence spell or similar. Being deafened inflicts a 20% failure chance on her maneuvers.

The Purple Mage heretic can still hold and use a single wand or light weapon in the fingers of one hand while simultaneously holding her Sutra Scroll, or use her hands for unarmed attacks while holding into it. Either way she takes no penalty on attack rolls this way.

First Treasure:  At third level the Purple Mage Heretic picks one of the following options. At 5th and 8th level she picks another.


Dharma, The Teaching-The path to Enlightment. Whenever an ally within 30 mu uses a martial boost or casts a spell with a range of personal, you can gain its benefits by increasing your Forbidden Price for Cosmic mind by an amount equal to the Boost/Spell's level. All details are as the original one used the Boost/spell.

You ... really don't think the same way
that I do, do you?
That humans and monsters can live together as equals
in the light of the Buddha ...


Sangha, The Community-The practising monks and and nuns who support your teachings. You gain Leadership as a bonus feat, except you use your Int or Wis mod (whichever's higher) instead of Cha mod to determine effects and only up to half your followers can be humanoids (your cohort cannot).

Hmmm
Certainly Buddhism is the best suited
for manipulating people.


Buddha, the Enlightened, Awakened One-The highest spirital potential that exists within all beings. When you enter a martial stance, you may cast a spell with a range of personal as part of the same action by increasing your Forbidden Price for Cosmic Mind by an amount equal to the spell's level. If the spell had a duration higher than 1 round, it lasts as long as you remain on that stance.

I see, it's too bad a living god couldn't see it my way.
However, I don't distinguish between monsters and gods.


Filled with Light: At 3rd level when you cast a spell that deals “light” damage as per Love-Colored Magic and Cosmic Mind, you can cast a spell one level lower on yourself by increasing your Cosmic Mind Forbidden Price by an amount equal to its level.


I feel powerful again for the first time in a long time.
Thank you very much.
I'd like to reward you, of course ...
But alas, there's nothing here...


Resist you with all my might: At 4th level whenever you're harmed you may perform an unarmed strike on the one who harmed you by increasing your Cosmic Mind Forbidden Price by 1. This unarmed strike cannot trigger this ability again in case your opponent has any ability that harms you when you hit them.

Namusan: At 5th level all non-good non-humanoids with less HD than you are automatically one step friendlier towards you while humanoids and good non-humanoids become one step more hostile towards you.  This does not stack with other effects that increase a creature's attitude towards you.


In my time, because I could use strange powers ...
People hated me.


Undefined Fantastic Object: At 6th level choose a mundane building up to 100 000 cubic feet. With a 24 hour ritual you can make it able to fly at a speed of 100 feet per round with perfect maneuverability. It magically keeps its structural integrity and the main structure is virtually indestructible, however automatically stops if it would violently hit anything, so you cannot use it to ram people or crush something by descending on it. Smaller sections may be destroyed using normal material hardness so it's possibly to violently break in or exit but otherwise the Undefined Fantastic Object never fails while you live. Its carrying capacity is the same as yours times 100. Smaller You must remain within 100 feet to control it and may even “ride” it. Your cohort and/or followers can also pilot it, either the cohort alone or at least twenty followers. While landed it looks like a natural building and you can also choose to reshape it when the ritual is first made, although the shape then remains constant. Everybody and everything inside the Undefined Fantastic Object is protected from indirect divination effects, including the Undefined Fantastic Object itself.


Monk on the Offensive: At 7th level when you cast a spell against an opponent, you gain a stacking permanent profane bonus on weapon and unarmed strike damage rolls against that opponent equal to the level of the spell you casted. A Remove Curse effect can clear this.



Yes.
I hold no grudge against you,
but...
I would like to
spread the importance of
the teachings of Buddhism to everyone.
And conveniently,
we have here an expendable character
who won't be defeated too easily.


Demonic Chief Priest of the Monster Temple: At 8th level spells you cast on yourself last one extra round per allied evil and/or chaotic non-humanoid within 100 feet and/or inside your Undefined Fantastic Object, also you no longer grow older and return/remain in your prime age while at least 4 of your followers/cohort remains alive and your creature type changes to outsider with the Chaotic and Evil subtypes (do not recalculate anything). Plus you can have one of your followers or your cohort retrain up to half their levels to god, rounded down. They can take more god levels, as long as it remains half of their levels, rounded down.




I don't expect that our
organized Buddhism will lose out
to a primitive religion.
But apparently this archaic
shrine is what's gathering
the most faith in Gensokyo,
so I must defeat
it no matter what.
Although it's...
just incidental.


Fires of Hokkai: At 9th level if you would be killed/destroyed, as long as 5 of your followers/cohort remain, your heart remains intact and beating, growing back to you at full HP/stats in 1d12 hours along your Sutra Scroll. Even if all your cohorts/followers were destroyed, eventually 5d12 of them will find a way out of the lower planes in 1d12 times 1d100 years to get you back from a random location of the lower planes. In addition your Undefined Fantastic Object can Plane Shift at will with everybody and everything inside except it takes 5 rounds to “charge”. It can still move while charging and there is no apparent sign it is about to change planes. Everybody inside is protected by any harmful planar/enviromental effects, providing survivable conditions inside be it in the fires of hell or frozen wastes.


Here is yet another individual
who has departed from the cycle of death and rebirth......
Or, could this perhaps also be enlightenment?


Great Sealed Magician: At 10th level you can use your Sealed maneuvers right away when you're down to half your readied maneuvers, rounded down. Once per hour you can cast any one spell from your Sutra Scroll without having it prepared by increasing your Cosmic Mind Forbidden Price by an amount equal to its level.


Even though I haven't been able to do anything for them
for over a thousand years ...
So, there are still monsters who miss me ...


Emotional Skyscrapper: At 11th level you no longer need to rest to recover and change spells, a moment of contemplation (move or swift action) is enough. You can still only do it 1/day though.


I see; I've already given up my humanity.
I suppose it's pointless for a non-human like me to appeal for equality.


Acharya who Surpassed the Primates: At 12th level you can scribe arcane spells in your Sutra Scroll without any cost, although you use such an elegant and advanced language that nobody else can decypher them. You also gain a +4 bonus on AC, DCs and all 1d20 rolls against humanoids and animals.


It's okay.
There's no shame to be had
in losing to me.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 03:55:44 AM by oslecamo »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2014, 04:10:13 PM »
Cosmic Mind

"In truth all things are but a dream, shorter than the time it takes to cook millet."-Byakuren Hijiri, Cosmic Mind Betrayer


The difference between divine and arcane magic is pretty simple. One is granted by fanatical belief in something else, the other comes from hard study and work, even if one had the inner natural talent.

But what happens when somebody has fanatical belief in hard study and work? When somebody develops a blind love for magic of all colours, believing it to be a reflection of her god's will? She'll feel her mind reaching Cosmic heights. And although it is true this will unlock great power, it also means she'll be too blinded to notice that laser approaching her face.

This is a Forbidden school.

Parent School: Love-Coloured Magic.
Forbidden Sign: Your hair becomes multi-colored.
Forbidden Cost: Every time you use a Cosmic Mind maneuver or enter a Cosmic Mind stance, your AC is permanently reduced by an amount equal to that maneuver/stance level. If your AC drops below zero, then all damage you take is amplified by an amount equal to the negative value of your AC.

Maneuveurs list


1st level
Magic "Omen in Purple Mist" : Strike- Spell affects area and may leave behind fog that dooms enemies and blesses allies. 
Magic "Mystic Fragrance of a Makai Butterfly": Boost-Gain flight speed and elegant buffs while removing lesser ill conditions.
Great Magic "Devil's Recitation" :Stance- Focus your prepared spells in infernal flowers so they can be used multiple times.

2nd level
Light Magic "Star Maelstrom":Strike- Unleash a Gust of Wind that channels another spell.
Amagimi Hijiri's Air Scroll: Counter- When attacked, move away while leaving behind magic line containing one of your spells.

3rd level
Syncretism "Manifestation of Mahavairocana": Boost-Glow brighter until magic is unleashed all around you, become harder to record.   
Flying Bowl “Flying Fantastica”: Strike-Create flying cylinders filled with destructive magic, can be sustained.

4th level
Lunatic Magic “Magic Butterfly” Counter–Retaliate being attacked with a boosted destructive spell, delay ill effects for 1 round.
Good Omen “Cloudy Way in Purple”: Strike–Spell affects line, may leave behind fog that weakens enemies and empowers allies.

5th level
Pestle Sign "Vajrapani's Incantation" :Strike-Perform a Telekinesis Violent Thrust where the thrown objects are charged with your magic.
Heaven Sign "Brilliance of Mahavairocana":Boost-For 1 round any nearby enemy attacking is struck by your spell.

6th level
Lunatic Good Omen "Nirvana's Cloudy Way in Purple":Counter-When an enemy tries to help somebody, hit them with destructive magic that may send them to their dream paradise.
Light Magic "Magic Milky Way":Strike-Produce a cone of deadly magic curbing lasers and balls.

7th level
Heaven Sign "Five-Element Mountain of Shakyamuni" :Strike-Not even monkey kings shall escape your hand of justice.
Binding Laws of Hari: Boost- Summon that replicates your magic.

8th level
Angirasa Veda:Strike- Unleash destructive magic, then non-destructive magic of your choice.
Eyes of Brahma "Counter-Nullify attack upon you and replicate  Flying Bowl “Flying Fantastica”.

9th level
Superhuman "Byakuren Hijiri":Stance-Bind destructive spell to your own body for immunities, dangerous lingering magic remains when you move.
Flying Bowl "Legendary Flying Saucer":Strike-Animate a large object into magic battleship.


(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 03:39:48 AM by oslecamo »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2014, 04:10:29 PM »
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 09:32:36 PM by oslecamo »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 04:11:39 PM »
And reserved just in case.

More of a placeholder for now, no maneuvers actually done yet, but let's see if this reminds me to work on Evil Marisa Byakuren.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 04:16:30 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 05:00:21 PM »
Sounds great!

The sutra scroll is very close to how I had planned to handle it. Neat!
The name of the class abilties are very interesting and promising.

Something I noticed though:

Quote
Purple Mage Heretic levels progress up to two martial progressions, one arcane spellcasting progression and one divine spellcasting progression. Purple Mage levels progress up to two martial progressions, one arcane spellcasting progression and one divine spellcasting progression.
Beyond the repetition, is it indeed supposed to progress all of that simultaneously?

Offline Amechra

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2014, 06:50:43 PM »
That permanent reduction on AC and attack rolls is going to scale very quickly. Mostly on the AC side, since AC doesn't scale with level by default.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline ketaro

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2014, 09:19:51 PM »
Well you shouldn't be getting hit anyways :p

Offline Bdrone

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2014, 01:27:45 AM »
I'm VERY glad to see something based on Hijiri. Not only did I make it a personal goal to defeat her and recently accomplished just that, but I personally quite like her. Her school being a Forbidden one, not so much... I'm still here and there on the Concept. the prestige will be... interesting. takes a bit of dabbling all over the place, (gotta pull in divine...) but just the Sutra Scroll on it's own intrigues me. I like the limits and the mundane benefits, but on the other hand that's a lot of progression types to me.

I'm currently Attempting a play test of an Ordinary Magician thusfar, and its kind of been stumbling. I want to see how this class and forbidden school affects my thoughts on this particular grouping of things, so ill be watching.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 05:11:49 AM by Bdrone »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2014, 04:37:59 AM »
One thing, though, her being a monk doesn't necessarily tie her to divine casting. Monks do not have to be divine casters by default and it actually goes well with her melee tendencies.

Hers sounds like a good candidate thematically for a forbidden discipline but its unfortunate considering her large repertoire of spellcards. It also makes it odd that there seems to be a need to invent new ones.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 04:45:52 AM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2014, 01:06:58 PM »
So... why have we got the Buddhist nun that did get some nifty stuff out of that, but primarily used black (i.e., Arcane) magic using divine casting? That is, she's more of a Monk/Wizard or Swordsage/Wizard than a Fighter/Cleric/Wizard... thing.

Also, I'm questioning the utility of a class that has shoddy BAB, probably nerfed AC and butchered attack bonuses, unlikely to be wearing much armour, and can be totally shut down by a second level spell. Oh, also can't do things sneakily because of the requirement to chant. Are you intentionally trying to make it useless?

1/2 BAB. d4 HD. AC and Attack negatives for using the school you need to get into the class. I presume this is to balance out the triple-theurge part, but that doesn't even make sense (only that all the best buffing spells are divine, except she's not a divine caster).

Unless you're relying on Persistent Spell, I can't see this class being terribly practical to use. Level 1: woo, I cast as a second level wizard and second level archivist (probably)! I'm also a sixth level martial adept! But I got piddling HD, only have skillpoints because of INT focus, have my hands full to do literally anything any more, and my actual spellcasting talents are really far back!
I guess if you enter through Ordinary Magician, you at least have decent Arcane Casting, but the Divine side is just dead weight. And at least that didn't have the self-flagellation chassis.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 01:10:11 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2014, 07:34:57 AM »
I'M A PHYSICS ENGINEERING MASTER NOW!

Got multiple campaigns to update, but that can wait, I'm on the mood for some Touhou homebrew now. :P

Sounds great!

The sutra scroll is very close to how I had planned to handle it. Neat!
The name of the class abilties are very interesting and promising.
Thanks!  :D

Something I noticed though:

Quote
Purple Mage Heretic levels progress up to two martial progressions, one arcane spellcasting progression and one divine spellcasting progression. Purple Mage levels progress up to two martial progressions, one arcane spellcasting progression and one divine spellcasting progression.
Beyond the repetition, is it indeed supposed to progress all of that simultaneously?
Actually it's only supposed to progress one martial progression plus both spellcastings, fixed.

That permanent reduction on AC and attack rolls is going to scale very quickly. Mostly on the AC side, since AC doesn't scale with level by default.
Like Ketaro pointed out, you're expected to use your magic to avoid getting hit. :p

One thing, though, her being a monk doesn't necessarily tie her to divine casting. Monks do not have to be divine casters by default and it actually goes well with her melee tendencies.
1-Byakuren most certainly was a divine monk. The very first line she utters is to praise her god, and keeps repeating it every couple sentences. Also she can't really fight when not decked out in magic, so she couldn't be a martial monk either. Which leads to...
2-Byakuren kinda is the ultimate Touhou example of self-buffing combat cleric. Without her magic she's a complete wuss (whereas Marisa and Reimu can still pull some moves), but then she fills herself with multiple combat buffs until she's able to tank a Master Spark with her face and outrun Fantasy Heaven.

Which was kinda the plan I have for her maneuvers, that would allow to convert magic blasts in powerful self-buffs (the more damage you would deal, the greater the benefit you receive). The first stance would be along the lines of Colored Magic stance that allows you to spam certain spells.

Hers sounds like a good candidate thematically for a forbidden discipline but its unfortunate considering her large repertoire of spellcards. It also makes it odd that there seems to be a need to invent new ones.
Meh, she technically has a lot of spellcards, yes, but several of them are almost name repetitions. Like Magic "Mystic Fragrance of a Makai Butterfly" and Magic "Magic Butterfly".

 
So... why have we got the Buddhist nun that did get some nifty stuff out of that, but primarily used black (i.e., Arcane) magic using divine casting? That is, she's more of a Monk/Wizard or Swordsage/Wizard than a Fighter/Cleric/Wizard... thing.
(click to show/hide)
Thank you Byakuren. Plus she doesn't use actual black magic, but demonic magic, drawing power from unholy entities, which is also closer to divine (just evil divine).

And again, I don't really see how could she be related to D&D monk, since it's explicitly stated several times her impressive physical capacities on the games are only because she loves buffing herself with spells. Even in the latest fighting game she never lets go of her scroll.

 
Also, I'm questioning the utility of a class that has shoddy BAB, probably nerfed AC and butchered attack bonuses, unlikely to be wearing much armour, and can be totally shut down by a second level spell. Oh, also can't do things sneakily because of the requirement to chant. Are you intentionally trying to make it useless?
1/2 BAB. d4 HD. AC and Attack negatives for using the school you need to get into the class. I presume this is to balance out the triple-theurge part, but that doesn't even make sense (only that all the best buffing spells are divine, except she's not a divine caster).
Byakuren may as well be a commoner when she's not using her magic (in contrast with Marisa who knows some broom-fu and has fought tigers in melee without magic and walked away on her own feet). And again unholy worship is still worship. Byakuren takes faith pretty seriously.

Unless you're relying on Persistent Spell, I can't see this class being terribly practical to use. Level 1: woo, I cast as a second level wizard and second level archivist (probably)! I'm also a sixth level martial adept! But I got piddling HD, only have skillpoints because of INT focus, have my hands full to do literally anything any more, and my actual spellcasting talents are really far back!
I guess if you enter through Ordinary Magician, you at least have decent Arcane Casting, but the Divine side is just dead weight. And at least that didn't have the self-flagellation chassis.
Yes, it's supposed to be entered through Ordinary Magician.

Added clause that the Sutra scroll allows you to get CL=IL for both progressions, that way even low level divine spells suddenly become quite nice.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2014, 08:39:54 AM »
Quote
I'M A PHYSICS ENGINEERING MASTER NOW!

Congratulations!

So... why have we got the Buddhist nun that did get some nifty stuff out of that, but primarily used black (i.e., Arcane) magic using divine casting? That is, she's more of a Monk/Wizard or Swordsage/Wizard than a Fighter/Cleric/Wizard... thing.
(click to show/hide)
Thank you Byakuren. Plus she doesn't use actual black magic, but demonic magic, drawing power from unholy entities, which is also closer to divine (just evil divine).

And again, I don't really see how could she be related to D&D monk, since it's explicitly stated several times her impressive physical capacities on the games are only because she loves buffing herself with spells. Even in the latest fighting game she never lets go of her scroll.

For the first one, I don't see how creating a magical item with a religious theme, when you're a nun, automatically makes it divine casting. There's this thing called 'flavour'. Ditto for the black magic being drawn from demons. I fail to see how Byakuren is siphoning power off of Shinki through maybe anything more than 'she came over to my corner of Makai a few times'.

Quote
Also, I'm questioning the utility of a class that has shoddy BAB, probably nerfed AC and butchered attack bonuses, unlikely to be wearing much armour, and can be totally shut down by a second level spell. Oh, also can't do things sneakily because of the requirement to chant. Are you intentionally trying to make it useless?
1/2 BAB. d4 HD. AC and Attack negatives for using the school you need to get into the class. I presume this is to balance out the triple-theurge part, but that doesn't even make sense (only that all the best buffing spells are divine, except she's not a divine caster).
Byakuren may as well be a commoner when she's not using her magic (in contrast with Marisa who knows some broom-fu and has fought tigers in melee without magic and walked away on her own feet). And again unholy worship is still worship. Byakuren takes faith pretty seriously.

... she's a Buddhist nun, not a devil-worshipper. That part is abundantly clear. Her brother just got to toss huge stuff around because 'monk', so I'm more inclined to think of the monk-based entry for the pre-requisites.

Yes, i'm sure Marisa has more intrinsic knowledge of how to hit someone. Clearly, the person who likes to just buff and go into melee is the one who has no idea how to actually punch someone. BAB isn't spell buffs.

Quote
Unless you're relying on Persistent Spell, I can't see this class being terribly practical to use. Level 1: woo, I cast as a second level wizard and second level archivist (probably)! I'm also a sixth level martial adept! But I got piddling HD, only have skillpoints because of INT focus, have my hands full to do literally anything any more, and my actual spellcasting talents are really far back!
I guess if you enter through Ordinary Magician, you at least have decent Arcane Casting, but the Divine side is just dead weight. And at least that didn't have the self-flagellation chassis.
Yes, it's supposed to be entered through Ordinary Magician.

Added clause that the Sutra scroll allows you to get CL=IL for both progressions, that way even low level divine spells suddenly become quite nice.

Not really. The class has so many drawbacks that it still isn't worth it.
-Crippled chassis.
-Can't wield a weapon because your hands are full. Not a monk, so you can't just kick people. So that's 'burn a feat on IUS to do piddling damage when not trying to use maneuvers etc.' or 'quick-draw'. But it still takes an action to sheathe it.
-Wholly reliant on buffs, but I'm levels behind on getting the divine stuff and only have a handful of arcane spells--which I'll probably need to keep as evocations because of Love-Coloured Magic. Not to mention problems with their running out, and my having very limited spell slots.
-The maneuvers for the character who focuses on buffing and fighting in melee, make you worse at fighting in melee as you use them. If I use a fifth level maneuver, I've dropped a quarter of the way down the RNG table.
-Any sort of Zone of Silence-type effect utterly shuts me down. And silence spells. I am the worst martial adept ever. :/

What good is being reliant on buffs to fight when I need to stack them to fight as well as someone from either of my 'parent' classes, can't actually hit anyone anyway, and using the school will punish me out of the combat? I'm a ninth level character: first level cleric buffs aren't going to massively help, not when using one maneuver would give  me -5 to-hit and -5 AC. They'd only have 6 BAB.

Also, this thing looks very, VERY MAD. Courtesy of theurge-type stuff, you'd better make that second half an Archivist to avoid needing everything except CHA. Except that means your BAB will be a measly five upon entry.

EDIT: The worst part is that the cost scales exactly as much as Immortal Smoke's 'burn through HP' type deal, only it's acting on a far more limited resource. Worse, if you build a character to have good health, then Immortal Smoke makes you more fragile but not any less effective. This makes you worse and worse at fighting, in two ways at once.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 08:50:03 AM by Raineh Daze »

Offline ketaro

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2014, 09:30:42 AM »
Did any one else see the irony laced throughout Rainy's post?  :eh

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For the first one, I don't see how creating a magical item with a religious theme, when you're a nun, automatically makes it divine casting.
I...I can't even respond without some sort of wisecrack or snide remark. I'm sorry -_-'
But thats just....ah geez...

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Ditto for the black magic being drawn from demons.
I'm...I'm sorry, again I'm chuckling but I honestly don't mean to be laughing at you. It's just, like, these two things are the most stereotypical of stereotypical things in each of their regards.

A nun/priest makes a magic item. Nobody is going to assume anything other than the item having religious under- AND overtones. To question why it wouldn't be is purely doing so in spite. Why would you have any reason for the magic item to be arcane? (Witchcraft is a punishable offense!)

Black magic is demonic in nature in that its use is exclusive to selfish needs for fulfilling your own wants. That's a deadly sins reference being inferred by me, yes, but alongside it is that one thing about witchcraft and satanism and devilworship stuff that is always put alongside the term 'black magic'. I mean, everybody knows about witch burnings in history and that they were burned because of devilworship, witchcraft, and black magic usage which all get rolled into the same rug because we're indiscriminate hate up in here. (Not we as in literally us in this thread. I dunno, like, we as in them. ANYWAAAAYS.....)

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BAB isn't spell buffs.
Aaaaactuaaallly......It is. Welcome to cleric buffs.

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-Can't wield a weapon because your hands are full. Not a monk, so you can't just kick people. So that's 'burn a feat on IUS to do piddling damage when not trying to use maneuvers etc.' or 'quick-draw'. But it still takes an action to sheathe it.
I have no doubt that, as an unfinished class, there will be SOMETHING in here letting one use the Sutra Scroll as a weapon in melee in a similar fashion to how his Scholar class can with scrolls and crap.
If that isn't a planned thing, then I hereby suggest it become a thing. Like you said Os, even in the fighting game she never let go of her Scroll. And she uses it as a melee weapon. (So I guess that does mean I had a little bit of doubt)

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-Wholly reliant on buffs, but I'm levels behind on getting the divine stuff and only have a handful of arcane spells--which I'll probably need to keep as evocations because of Love-Coloured Magic. Not to mention problems with their running out, and my having very limited spell slots.
It would not be the first class to be reliant on expendable items like wands or stuff to become combat capable and excel at it. All you need is that 1 dip in castings and bam! Every spell that can fit into a wand good luck champ! Good thing the majority of your good buffs are within 4 levels. Did we mention Eternal Wands for non-expendability? Now you're the same as your melee cleric or (for w/e reason) that sorcerer friend who likes to punch things too. (In that your first few rounds of combat are BUFF BUFF BUFF)

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-The maneuvers for the character who focuses on buffing and fighting in melee, make you worse at fighting in melee as you use them. If I use a fifth level maneuver, I've dropped a quarter of the way down the RNG table.
Okay I have to admit, there are not as many to-hit boosting spells as damage mitigation/AC buffing spells. Each maneuver use reducing your AC AND applying a penalty to hit is kind of big. I think it should only penalize your AC, this Forbidden School.
Of course, that is an opinion made without knowing what the maneuvers may possibly do. It is entirely possible that every maneuver will be well worth the losses in both stats, I dunno. We can find out the truth in the next episode of dragon ball z!

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-Any sort of Zone of Silence-type effect utterly shuts me down. And silence spells. I am the worst martial adept ever. :/
Okay that IS a very big exaggeration, I feel, on Rainy's part (mainly just the last bit at the end mind you). But I will also say, there should atleast be an Initiator Level check against the Caster Level of the Silence spell or effect to be able to ignore it IF you must have that restriction here. One you can make again each time you try to initiate a maneuver from this school maybe?

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EDIT: The worst part is that the cost scales exactly as much as Immortal Smoke's 'burn through HP' type deal, only it's acting on a far more limited resource. Worse, if you build a character to have good health, then Immortal Smoke makes you more fragile but not any less effective. This makes you worse and worse at fighting, in two ways at once.
Admittedly though, in D&D, building for HP does not make you good at fighting and would in fact hinder you in actual combat ability depending on how much you focused on that aspect. D&D is a game of damage mitigation, not being able to take more damage.

Besides, an Immortal Smoke user just needs Hide Life put on them and now the cost doesn't matter.
Or permanent Delay Death. So what if you're one dispel magic away from death, being dispelled honestly does not come up very often. Infact, AMF usage is more common than an enemy wasting his time casting Dispel Magic on the fighter that is BASHINNG HIS FACE IN. Exaggeration mine :p

But this isn't the Immortal Smoke thread so excuse my rambling -_-'

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2014, 09:49:02 AM »
A nun/priest makes a magic item. Nobody is going to assume anything other than the item having religious under- AND overtones. To question why it wouldn't be is purely doing so in spite. Why would you have any reason for the magic item to be arcane? (Witchcraft is a punishable offense!)

Black magic is demonic in nature in that its use is exclusive to selfish needs for fulfilling your own wants. That's a deadly sins reference being inferred by me, yes, but alongside it is that one thing about witchcraft and satanism and devilworship stuff that is always put alongside the term 'black magic'. I mean, everybody knows about witch burnings in history and that they were burned because of devilworship, witchcraft, and black magic usage which all get rolled into the same rug because we're indiscriminate hate up in here. (Not we as in literally us in this thread. I dunno, like, we as in them. ANYWAAAAYS.....)

This is the problem: you're looking at the flavour of it (Buddhist monk makes a magical item for... autocasting black magic?) and just the phrase 'black magic' (all that's actually said about it is that it's learned from youkai and is the reason she's a youkai magician--it's not really different from Marisa or Alice's stuff) and concluding that this means divine casting and devil worship.

It's a dumb way to approach it, especially the devil worship. She made the scroll using magical materials found in Makai, and it saves her the bother of having to cast the buffs herself--so it's essentially casting black magic. Through the 'this isn't actually any different to normal magic' thing, it's casting arcane spells. Thus, it's not a divine magic thing.

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BAB isn't spell buffs.
Aaaaactuaaallly......It is. Welcome to cleric buffs.

Aside from Divine Power. More on that in a second.

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-Can't wield a weapon because your hands are full. Not a monk, so you can't just kick people. So that's 'burn a feat on IUS to do piddling damage when not trying to use maneuvers etc.' or 'quick-draw'. But it still takes an action to sheathe it.
I have no doubt that, as an unfinished class, there will be SOMETHING in here letting one use the Sutra Scroll as a weapon in melee in a similar fashion to how his Scholar class can with scrolls and crap.
If that isn't a planned thing, then I hereby suggest it become a thing. Like you said Os, even in the fighting game she never let go of her Scroll. And she uses it as a melee weapon. (So I guess that does mean I had a little bit of doubt)

Well, yeah--I'm just saying what it looks like now.

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-Wholly reliant on buffs, but I'm levels behind on getting the divine stuff and only have a handful of arcane spells--which I'll probably need to keep as evocations because of Love-Coloured Magic. Not to mention problems with their running out, and my having very limited spell slots.
It would not be the first class to be reliant on expendable items like wands or stuff to become combat capable and excel at it. All you need is that 1 dip in castings and bam! Every spell that can fit into a wand good luck champ! Good thing the majority of your good buffs are within 4 levels. Did we mention Eternal Wands for non-expendability? Now you're the same as your melee cleric or (for w/e reason) that sorcerer friend who likes to punch things too. (In that your first few rounds of combat are BUFF BUFF BUFF)

How is this in any way different from what I can pull off with either of the other magician classes? They can both get these spells because UMD is a class skill, and get better base stats to go with it. Though I can't cast the best cleric buffs for the next five levels, so not until level 14 do I get to actually cast what the Cleric was playing with at level 5.

"You can cast it through items" doesn't really solve the class's own flaws.

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-The maneuvers for the character who focuses on buffing and fighting in melee, make you worse at fighting in melee as you use them. If I use a fifth level maneuver, I've dropped a quarter of the way down the RNG table.
Okay I have to admit, there are not as many to-hit boosting spells as damage mitigation/AC buffing spells. Each maneuver use reducing your AC AND applying a penalty to hit is kind of big. I think it should only penalize your AC, this Forbidden School.
Of course, that is an opinion made without knowing what the maneuvers may possibly do. It is entirely possible that every maneuver will be well worth the losses in both stats, I dunno. We can find out the truth in the next episode of dragon ball z!

Wouldn't any maneuvers with that sort of power be essentially broken? Plus if the enemy saves/avoids most of the effects, I've gone from hitting, say, half the time and being hit half the time... to hitting 1/4 and being hit 3/4.

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-Any sort of Zone of Silence-type effect utterly shuts me down. And silence spells. I am the worst martial adept ever. :/
Okay that IS a very big exaggeration, I feel, on Rainy's part (mainly just the last bit at the end mind you). But I will also say, there should atleast be an Initiator Level check against the Caster Level of the Silence spell or effect to be able to ignore it IF you must have that restriction here. One you can make again each time you try to initiate a maneuver from this school maybe?

Exaggeration was intentional.

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EDIT: The worst part is that the cost scales exactly as much as Immortal Smoke's 'burn through HP' type deal, only it's acting on a far more limited resource. Worse, if you build a character to have good health, then Immortal Smoke makes you more fragile but not any less effective. This makes you worse and worse at fighting, in two ways at once.
Admittedly though, in D&D, building for HP does not make you good at fighting and would in fact hinder you in actual combat ability depending on how much you focused on that aspect. D&D is a game of damage mitigation, not being able to take more damage.

Besides, an Immortal Smoke user just needs Hide Life put on them and now the cost doesn't matter.
Or permanent Delay Death. So what if you're one dispel magic away from death, being dispelled honestly does not come up very often. Infact, AMF usage is more common than an enemy wasting his time casting Dispel Magic on the fighter that is BASHINNG HIS FACE IN. Exaggeration mine :p

But this isn't the Immortal Smoke thread so excuse my rambling -_-'

You don't really need to build much for HP beyond 'make sure you have good CON'. Exploits that're probably going to be fixed now you've mentioned them out of the way, your HP pool is going to be much bigger than your attack/AC pool. 9d6HD and +4 CON modifier is 70HP, and even if it's cut in half you can still use the first level stance/maneuvers to avoid dying. At the same level, I don't think you're very likely to have even half that amount of AC or to-hit, even less so given you're also a caster.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2014, 10:47:31 AM »
Don't knock me just cause I prefer things that taste good :p

*cough*

This distinguishing between arcane and divine feels really moot to me on a class that progresses everything.
But ignoring that, just cause its arcane doesn't mean it can't be divine. Arcane magic can also be divinely granted. Dragonlance runs on that pre-Chaos, for one example. Gods of Arcane magic are a normal thing too. The Magic Domain. Yeah. Hmm....

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How is this in any way different from what I can pull off with either of the other magician classes? They can both get these spells because UMD is a class skill, and get better base stats to go with it. Though I can't cast the best cleric buffs for the next five levels, so not until level 14 do I get to actually cast what the Cleric was playing with at level 5.

"You can cast it through items" doesn't really solve the class's own flaws.

What? I feel like you're getting something wrong with how it builds....

5 levels of OM or YM, 1 dip of cleric, and by 11 you're set up to 3rds with Divine and you're progressing equally with a sorcerer of your full level on arcanes when you set yourself back one level with the cleric dip. Plus all your best defense buffs are on the low end of arcane so the cleric stuff being a little behind isn't much of a setback at all. Not to mention being only 1/2 a level behind on maneuvers.

You have 3 spell lists and if you're running this PrC, you definitely are running around with at least 2 super strong Disciplines on top of Wizard spells on top of every Cleric spell. You are doing just fine in keeping up with your party. Your only setback is being 3-4 characters wrapped up in a single bundle that only has 1 set of actions to split between so many resources you can't even hold them all.

Like, shoot, I don't even know why this matter of using this in melee combat came up because you ARE NOT going to anything but a backline blaster based on the prereqs and probably having Love-Colored Magic, the blasteriest blasting school here next to Divine Flame. You won't be buffing. You'll be nuking every single round until nothing but wasteland rests beneath your boots.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2014, 10:59:47 AM »
Don't knock me just cause I prefer things that taste good :p

*cough*

This distinguishing between arcane and divine feels really moot to me on a class that progresses everything.
But ignoring that, just cause its arcane doesn't mean it can't be divine. Arcane magic can also be divinely granted. Dragonlance runs on that pre-Chaos, for one example. Gods of Arcane magic are a normal thing too. The Magic Domain. Yeah. Hmm....

'Sorcerer's Sutra Scroll'. The arcane focus is strong here. Also 'black magic', 'youkai magician'... arguing that it's divine casting because she's a buddhist doesn't make the most sense. That would be Onmyoudo or something. >.>

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How is this in any way different from what I can pull off with either of the other magician classes? They can both get these spells because UMD is a class skill, and get better base stats to go with it. Though I can't cast the best cleric buffs for the next five levels, so not until level 14 do I get to actually cast what the Cleric was playing with at level 5.

"You can cast it through items" doesn't really solve the class's own flaws.

What? I feel like you're getting something wrong with how it builds....

5 levels of OM or YM, 1 dip of cleric, and by 11 you're set up to 3rds with Divine and you're progressing equally with a sorcerer of your full level on arcanes when you set yourself back one level with the cleric dip. Plus all your best defense buffs are on the low end of arcane so the cleric stuff being a little behind isn't much of a setback at all. Not to mention being only 1/2 a level behind on maneuvers.

It matters when you have at most a dozen arcane spells a day at level 20. You can't afford to cast low level spells, because you don't have spell slots. If you want that, we've got a requirement for Martial Adept 5, Wizard 1, Cleric or Archivist 1, and you're dropping to 7th's at best.

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You have 3 spell lists and if you're running this PrC, you definitely are running around with at least 2 super strong Disciplines on top of Wizard spells on top of every Cleric spell. You are doing just fine in keeping up with your party. Your only setback is being 3-4 characters wrapped up in a single bundle that only has 1 set of actions to split between so many resources you can't even hold them all.

A handful of wizard spells, a school that will only work full strength if you combine those spells with it, and--for several levels--severely behind divine casting you probably won't have many, if any, bonus spells for.

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Like, shoot, I don't even know why this matter of using this in melee combat came up because you ARE NOT going to anything but a backline blaster based on the prereqs and probably having Love-Colored Magic, the blasteriest blasting school here next to Divine Flame. You won't be buffing. You'll be nuking every single round until nothing but wasteland rests beneath your boots.

If this class is only good for blasting, it's doing it wrong. Very, very wrong. This is Byakuren. >_>;
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 11:01:31 AM by Raineh Daze »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2014, 11:05:23 AM »
Quote from: Osle
I'M A PHYSICS ENGINEERING MASTER NOW!

Congratulations!! Now THAT must be one load off your chest!

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Actually it's only supposed to progress one martial progression plus both spellcastings, fixed.

Reading on Byakuren, I come to the same conclusion: She is good at both divine and arcane magic.
The only issue that leads to is that -we- are turning her magic/divine spellcards into maneuvers and thus giving her a martial adept progression on top of those. My belief is that to limit all these uber progression and make it easier to both balance the class and to make it more interesting at what it does, you could focus on the divine/arcane progression and drop the martial one completely. Tobhou maneuvers already, by default, have a certain synergy with spellcasting. I mean:
(click to show/hide)
Which means that a divine caster with a martial progression could perhaps enter this class, or a normal divine/arcane multiclass.
What could make this all mesh together better is give it the possibility to gain access to maneuvers instead of a new spells known, like an integrated Rainbow Puppeteer mechanic. The scroll could, naturally, help with that.
Just a thought.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2014, 11:07:53 AM »
'Divine magic' depends on whether you view Harmonious Arts as magic or not, which is why I've been annoyed by the theurge-ness when that stuff is probably getting folded into the maneuvers as it is. <_<

Offline ketaro

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2014, 11:14:33 AM »
You're coming off as a lot more pessimistic than critiquing with this class...
And dam, you are really against all the divine tones in this thing hardcore like -_-'

Also you don't need the wizard 1 level. YM/OM is already a wizard and a martial.

You can afford to cast any levels because it's fairly easy to assume Love Colored Magic is in this with the intended entry being from OM/YM and that discipline is fairly good at saving your slots.

LCM hardly needs to be fueled with your spells to be powerful, it's dang powerful as vanilla before pumping it up with your spell slots. And even if you do, you have stances that're helping prevent those slots from actually being expended.

Cleric casting is always powerful regardless. And I don't doubt their being ways to change your cleric casting stat to help out on the MAD thing.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Purple Mage Heretic and Cosmic Mind
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2014, 11:24:36 AM »
Also you don't need the wizard 1 level. YM/OM is already a wizard and a martial.

You can afford to cast any levels because it's fairly easy to assume Love Colored Magic is in this with the intended entry being from OM/YM and that discipline is fairly good at saving your slots.

That would be for the purposes of having low level spell slots to actually stick buffs in. OM/YM have a meagre six spell slots when you enter this class. Sure, the stances let you bind multiple spells to it... but they're all blasting spells and weaker than your strongest stuff. You don't really have the slots to spare for much buffing. And they don't work with metamagic, so the duration is an important limitation. :/

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LCM hardly needs to be fueled with your spells to be powerful, it's dang powerful as vanilla before pumping it up with your spell slots. And even if you do, you have stances that're helping prevent those slots from actually being expended.

... every maneuver basically needs a spell cast. The stances are the only thing letting you use them at all.

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Cleric casting is always powerful regardless. And I don't doubt their being ways to change your cleric casting stat to help out on the MAD thing.

It's called 'be an archivist'.