Author Topic: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II  (Read 4530 times)

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« on: August 09, 2012, 09:41:41 AM »
Note: This is not my trick. It was first posted by Shneeky the Lost on gitp. i am simply reposting it here with his permission.

We all remember the Bag o' Puppies trick. Warmind5 lets you get a free shot on an opponent within reach if you hit an opponent. So you dump a bag of puppies at your feat. Kill a puppy, get a free shot. Combine with Great Cleave, and you have as many free shots as you have puppies in your bag.
 
Well, my friends, this is a new take on the old saw. Hold on to your hats, this one can clear whole armies.
 
Tome of Battle, Book of Nine Swords. A rather controversial book, and I am loathe to post this because of the negative views that will be directed to it. However, I would be remiss in my duty as an Optimizer if I did not share this with the class.

This trick is classified as Theoretical Optimization, and should not be used in a realistic game setting, any more than Mailman, Pun-Pun, or any other TO builds should be.
 
Having said that, the basic concept isn't too bad.
 
The PrC that makes this work is Bloodstorm Blade. The 2nd level ability allows you to treat your thrown attacks as melee attacks, with respect to feats.
 
Now Lightning Ricochet. Lets you mix your ranged and melee attacks. But of course, your ranged attacks *ARE* melee attacks, in effect.
 
So now then, we come to the trick. Great Cleave is often seen with ridicule (Roy has Boobies!), however this time, it gains some power back.

Take a swing, kill a mook. Great cleave. Now, you can swing at another mook... or you can use Thunderous Throw and hit anything you can throw your weapon at.
 
So now literally every enemy within range is your 'bag of puppies'. Boosting your damage to one-shot kill opponents is easy for a Warblade. This lets you clear entire battlefields.
 
At higher levels? Let me put it to you this way. Since Distant Shot only requires 20 ranks in Spot, and there's several ways to get Spot as a class skill, by level 17, he can literally clear anything within line of sight.
 
The Warblade stands atop the walls of Minas Tirith, with an army of goblins, Uruk-Hai, and Oliphants beneath him... so numerous that they seem a carpet of filth on the great plain. He hefts his greatsword and throws it.
 
Six seconds later, the plains are filled with corpses.
 
Every. Single Opponent. Dead. Including the Oliphants and the siege weapons.
 
This is even starting to approach the offensive capabilities (not defensive or utility, of course) of a God Wizard, because he is effectively using an area-effect no-save-just-die that does not allow SR, and is not considered to be a Death effect. How? He's simply doing enough damage to one-hit kill his opponents.
 
This also negates one of the biggest disadvantages melee traditionally has: 'how can you reach me'. Simple... I throw my sword at you.
 
It still doesn't approach the defensive or utility capabilities of a Wizard, by any means. However, a strong offense can be a good defense. If there is no one left to harm you... then you remain unharmed. It's not perfect, of course. A knife in the dark (although with Improved Uncanny Dodge, it will have to be a good deal more involved than THAT), or spells launched from outside of Line of Sight (perhaps using scrying to target).

But really...

Area: Line of Sight (no risking friendly fire)
 Effect: 'Die now'.
 Uses: Unlimited.
 
Yea... it's kinda like that.
 
Let's look at two builds. One of which is the 'Practical' version, the other is the 'Way Out There' version.
 
Practical Whirlblades of Death:

(click to show/hide)

Whole hog version to follow, or I can let one of the other optimizers build him. In short, he uses Dragonwrought Kobold to get early access to Epic feats. He also uses Blood In The Water and a Keen Valorous Ghost Touch Aptitude Falchion.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 07:32:40 PM by 123456789blaaa »
Please, call me Count :).

Offline Bauglir

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
  • Constrained
    • View Profile
Re: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 12:27:24 PM »
So the original Warmind version basically utilizes puppy-murder to convert attacking to adjacent enemies on each attack into attacking one enemy twice with each attack? Not bad.

This version, I think, has a couple of problems. The practical version probably won't be terrifically effective, since the average HP of an enemy at CR 9 is 130.65. Since he needs to drop each enemy on the first shot to keep the Great Cleave chain going, he's going to lose momentum. Also, minor nitpick; a Warlock has 60 foot range with an Eldritch Blast, which is greater than 50 (and doesn't incur a range increment attack penalty). Not really a huge thing because of Distant Shot, but it's worth mentioning - and that says more about the power of a Dragonwrought Kobold than anything else, under the (still under dispute, I think? I stopped reading that thread a while ago) ruling that it is a True Dragon.

Ultimately, this concept is greatly over-hyped. It falls apart when you encounter a high-AC enemy, a high-HP enemy, or enemies with miss chances. Stealth and tower shields also render it ineffective, but only when the targets see it coming, which is probably not going to be the case the first time.

Should I post these criticisms in the GitP thread? I have no idea if my account is still active.

Offline brujon

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2554
  • Insufferable Fool
    • View Profile
    • My Blog (in PT-BR)
Re: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 12:52:02 PM »
So the original Warmind version basically utilizes puppy-murder to convert attacking to adjacent enemies on each attack into attacking one enemy twice with each attack? Not bad.

This version, I think, has a couple of problems. The practical version probably won't be terrifically effective, since the average HP of an enemy at CR 9 is 130.65. Since he needs to drop each enemy on the first shot to keep the Great Cleave chain going, he's going to lose momentum. Also, minor nitpick; a Warlock has 60 foot range with an Eldritch Blast, which is greater than 50 (and doesn't incur a range increment attack penalty). Not really a huge thing because of Distant Shot, but it's worth mentioning - and that says more about the power of a Dragonwrought Kobold than anything else, under the (still under dispute, I think? I stopped reading that thread a while ago) ruling that it is a True Dragon.

Ultimately, this concept is greatly over-hyped. It falls apart when you encounter a high-AC enemy, a high-HP enemy, or enemies with miss chances. Stealth and tower shields also render it ineffective, but only when the targets see it coming, which is probably not going to be the case the first time.

Should I post these criticisms in the GitP thread? I have no idea if my account is still active.

Since you'll be dropping entire battlefields in one round, True Strike can buff that one round to "It will hit" levels.

Since we're talking about Tome of Battle here, why not do a set-up with Stormguard Initiator to boost the damage to ridiculous levels? You'll have access to ways of making more than one full attack per round, so with the first, make them all touch attacks, boosting your damage by 5 for every one that hits...

You then unleash death.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 01:23:10 PM »
I've seen this before, called the Bag o' Rats and using Whirlwind Attack instead of Sweeping Strike.

Is it just me, or is the build at the bottom nothing more than saying that Great Cleave is good when you can use it beyond melee range?

So the original Warmind version basically utilizes puppy-murder to convert attacking to adjacent enemies on each attack into attacking one enemy twice with each attack? Not bad.

This version, I think, has a couple of problems. The practical version probably won't be terrifically effective, since the average HP of an enemy at CR 9 is 130.65. Since he needs to drop each enemy on the first shot to keep the Great Cleave chain going, he's going to lose momentum. Also, minor nitpick; a Warlock has 60 foot range with an Eldritch Blast, which is greater than 50 (and doesn't incur a range increment attack penalty). Not really a huge thing because of Distant Shot, but it's worth mentioning - and that says more about the power of a Dragonwrought Kobold than anything else, under the (still under dispute, I think? I stopped reading that thread a while ago) ruling that it is a True Dragon.

Ultimately, this concept is greatly over-hyped. It falls apart when you encounter a high-AC enemy, a high-HP enemy, or enemies with miss chances. Stealth and tower shields also render it ineffective, but only when the targets see it coming, which is probably not going to be the case the first time.

Should I post these criticisms in the GitP thread? I have no idea if my account is still active.

Since you'll be dropping entire battlefields in one round, True Strike can buff that one round to "It will hit" levels.

Since we're talking about Tome of Battle here, why not do a set-up with Stormguard Initiator to boost the damage to ridiculous levels? You'll have access to ways of making more than one full attack per round, so with the first, make them all touch attacks, boosting your damage by 5 for every one that hits...

You then unleash death.

True Strike only affects a single attack roll, so that's no help. Stormguard Warrior only boosts your damage against the same target you attacked so many times in the previous round, so it won't be of any help against the hordes of enemies this combo is supposed to actually function against.

Offline dman11235

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2571
  • Disclaimer: not at full capacity yet
    • View Profile
Re: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 03:57:04 PM »
Quote
True Strike only affects a single attack roll, so that's no help. Stormguard Warrior only boosts your damage against the same target you attacked so many times in the previous round, so it won't be of any help against the hordes of enemies this combo is supposed to actually function against.

I think he meant Wraith Strike, since he said "it makes them all touch attacks" in the second paragraph.
My Sig's Handy Haversack  Need help?  Want to see what I've done?  Want to see what others have done well?  Check it out.

Avatar d20

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 04:06:55 PM »
Quote
True Strike only affects a single attack roll, so that's no help. Stormguard Warrior only boosts your damage against the same target you attacked so many times in the previous round, so it won't be of any help against the hordes of enemies this combo is supposed to actually function against.

I think he meant Wraith Strike, since he said "it makes them all touch attacks" in the second paragraph.

The second paragraph is about Stormguard Warrior, which lets you make touch attacks and deal no damage to boost your damage in the next round.

Offline Maat Mons

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1203
  • What is a smile but a grimace of happiness?
    • View Profile
Re: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 05:23:44 PM »
Cleave specifies “within reach.”  If thunderous throw can get around that limitation, you can instead use whirlwind attack. 

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
Re: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 05:33:07 PM »
So the original Warmind version basically utilizes puppy-murder to convert attacking to adjacent enemies on each attack into attacking one enemy twice with each attack? Not bad.

This version, I think, has a couple of problems. The practical version probably won't be terrifically effective, since the average HP of an enemy at CR 9 is 130.65. Since he needs to drop each enemy on the first shot to keep the Great Cleave chain going, he's going to lose momentum. Also, minor nitpick; a Warlock has 60 foot range with an Eldritch Blast, which is greater than 50 (and doesn't incur a range increment attack penalty). Not really a huge thing because of Distant Shot, but it's worth mentioning - and that says more about the power of a Dragonwrought Kobold than anything else, under the (still under dispute, I think? I stopped reading that thread a while ago) ruling that it is a True Dragon.

Ultimately, this concept is greatly over-hyped. It falls apart when you encounter a high-AC enemy, a high-HP enemy, or enemies with miss chances. Stealth and tower shields also render it ineffective, but only when the targets see it coming, which is probably not going to be the case the first time.

Should I post these criticisms in the GitP thread? I have no idea if my account is still active.

The gitp thread is here. You should probably post there since shneeky is better equiped to answer your criticisms than me. Please check the date the thread was made and be careful that you are not commiting thread necromancy.
Please, call me Count :).

Offline dman11235

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2571
  • Disclaimer: not at full capacity yet
    • View Profile
Re: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 02:38:11 AM »
Either way, Wraith Strike would help with the to-hit.

Also, how powerful are the individuals of an army going to be?  Miniatures Handbook has a typical army be made up of level 1 creatures, with a decent amount of level 2, and then level 5 creatures being commanders.  Sort of a Leadership progression, but modified.  If this is true (and I would assume so, since a typical army you would face solo would be significantly lower level than you), then HP should be no problem.  If it's not (the DM wants you dead, he knows you have something powerful, whatever), then you shouldn't have too hard of a time with the damage, since that's really easy to boost.
My Sig's Handy Haversack  Need help?  Want to see what I've done?  Want to see what others have done well?  Check it out.

Avatar d20

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 02:58:02 AM »
Depends what it is an army of I suppose. An army of devils is going to be a righteous pain to deal with but humans would be a lot simpler.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: New CharOp trick: Bag o' Puppies Mk. II
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2012, 07:19:42 PM »
Bag of Puppies
... is just wRong compared to Bag of Rats.
Boo, bad gitp bad.


Getting really big range, like to the horizon,
is in the various archer guides.
Your codpiece is a mimic.