Author Topic: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?  (Read 17547 times)

Offline SneeR

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2011, 12:33:19 AM »
No penalty is the same as "screw the BAB system, do 2[W] damage."
No extra attacks is a step backwards from 2E and really is Fighter rape.
Saying let's use this hit/miss chance system we've got an just attack extra attacks with a higher miss chance is logical.

Capping the values is a poor choice. You screw over dedicated melee classes over by capping penalties than if you didn't.
1. It makes it easier for none full BAB classes to readily hit more often on their secondary attacks. Umm, why aim for full BAB again?
2. BAB 11~16 is worthless, BAB 17~20 is too. In fact, you have have to ask your self is the 4th attack is so great, why not just plain skip 11~20, it's not like you'll miss much. Be something else, like a Rogue and dip Warblade twice.

But it's okay for monsters to not get iterative penalties?
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Offline Seerow

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2011, 12:41:47 AM »
No penalty is the same as "screw the BAB system, do 2[W] damage."
No extra attacks is a step backwards from 2E and really is Fighter rape.
Saying let's use this hit/miss chance system we've got an just attack extra attacks with a higher miss chance is logical.

Capping the values is a poor choice. You screw over dedicated melee classes over by capping penalties than if you didn't.
1. It makes it easier for none full BAB classes to readily hit more often on their secondary attacks. Umm, why aim for full BAB again?
2. BAB 11~16 is worthless, BAB 17~20 is too. In fact, you have have to ask your self is the 4th attack is so great, why not just plain skip 11~20, it's not like you'll miss much. Be something else, like a Rogue and dip Warblade twice.

But it's okay for monsters to not get iterative penalties?

To be fair, it might be a lot easier on melee if monsters did take iterative penalties for extra natural weapons. At least AC wouldn't feel so useless.

Offline SneeR

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2011, 12:48:40 AM »
No penalty is the same as "screw the BAB system, do 2[W] damage."
No extra attacks is a step backwards from 2E and really is Fighter rape.
Saying let's use this hit/miss chance system we've got an just attack extra attacks with a higher miss chance is logical.

Capping the values is a poor choice. You screw over dedicated melee classes over by capping penalties than if you didn't.
1. It makes it easier for none full BAB classes to readily hit more often on their secondary attacks. Umm, why aim for full BAB again?
2. BAB 11~16 is worthless, BAB 17~20 is too. In fact, you have have to ask your self is the 4th attack is so great, why not just plain skip 11~20, it's not like you'll miss much. Be something else, like a Rogue and dip Warblade twice.

But it's okay for monsters to not get iterative penalties?

To be fair, it might be a lot easier on melee if monsters did take iterative penalties for extra natural weapons. At least AC wouldn't feel so useless.

I always did hate the idea of a monster lashing out with two hoof attacks, two wing attacks, a horn attack, a bite attack, two claw attacks, and a tail slam. 9 attacks with such varied parts? It's like they are bucking and flailing like crazy! Not what I picture a giant demon doing.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2011, 01:10:44 AM »
And to address the idea that it would create an imbalance from melee casters - let's look at that a moment:

The best melee caster - almost certainly a wild shape focused druid; who gains nothing from the change because they already use those rules. 

Offline veekie

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2011, 01:34:22 AM »
Well, in that light, Exalted's flurry system works pretty ok(other than the pain in the ass math and it being as swingy as a d10 system).
You can basically combine multiple actions(any actions other than high sorcery) into a flurry, but all the actions take a cumulative penalty for A)the number of total actions combined B) the action's sequence in the flurry. You can't add the same action twice unless its an attack. You can't take an action unless you still have a bonus remaining for it.
Natural weapons and manufactured weapons work alike, they both have a Rate, which determines the number of attacks you can get out of each weapon. TWF also throws in more Rate.

So effectively, you'd be picking over a range of high accuracy attacks versus number of attacks.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2011, 05:03:06 AM »
Capping the values is a poor choice. You screw over dedicated melee classes over by capping penalties than if you didn't.
1. It makes it easier for none full BAB classes to readily hit more often on their secondary attacks. Umm, why aim for full BAB again?
2. BAB 11~16 is worthless, BAB 17~20 is too. In fact, you have have to ask your self is the 4th attack is so great, why not just plain skip 11~20, it's not like you'll miss much. Be something else, like a Rogue and dip Warblade twice.

1. non-full BAB classes already hit more often than full BAB classes, mainly because most of them have spells that help with that. Having let's say Wraithstrike on your list is easily worth losing a few point of BAB.
2. That's the main issue with the system. Given the sheer amount of buffs in existence (I'm convinced one could make a 0 BAB character that could reliably hit level-appropriate enemies) the relevance of BAB is not 'do I hit or not?' but 'how many attacks I get?' and 'how much can I Power Attack?'

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2011, 06:44:53 AM »
I have no idea what SorO is trying to say. I do know that 16 BAB is entirely not worth it when it means 1 attack at -15 and various opportunity costs from taking at least 4 levels of a full BAB class. 16 BAB is worth it when it gives 1 more attack at -5.

Yes, Divine Power gives it for free. Even without that you're better off Power Attacking with 2 or 3 attacks than swinging wildly with 4.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2011, 02:04:49 PM »
Those of you using the cap it at -5 system, which is one that I personally like as it helps close up the gap between high-BAB iteratives and natural weapons, do you change it for monsters, too?  That's my only hesitation, as I don't want to make monsters any more difficult to run. 

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2011, 02:14:21 PM »
Those of you using the cap it at -5 system, which is one that I personally like as it helps close up the gap between high-BAB iteratives and natural weapons, do you change it for monsters, too?  That's my only hesitation, as I don't want to make monsters any more difficult to run.

Huh? Monsters already have maximum penalties of -5 on their secondary attacks. It's the main reason why melee monsters and their natural weapons are threats and manufactured weapon users really aren't.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2011, 02:14:43 PM »
Those of you using the cap it at -5 system, which is one that I personally like as it helps close up the gap between high-BAB iteratives and natural weapons, do you change it for monsters, too?  That's my only hesitation, as I don't want to make monsters any more difficult to run.
Well you could allow Multiattack to work for normal iteratives...

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2011, 04:27:43 PM »
Those of you using the cap it at -5 system, which is one that I personally like as it helps close up the gap between high-BAB iteratives and natural weapons, do you change it for monsters, too?  That's my only hesitation, as I don't want to make monsters any more difficult to run.

Huh? Monsters already have maximum penalties of -5 on their secondary attacks. It's the main reason why melee monsters and their natural weapons are threats and manufactured weapon users really aren't.
A number of monsters just use iteratives, viz. giants, some demons.  Although I don't know exactly what the breakdown is.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2011, 04:34:42 PM »
Those of you using the cap it at -5 system, which is one that I personally like as it helps close up the gap between high-BAB iteratives and natural weapons, do you change it for monsters, too?  That's my only hesitation, as I don't want to make monsters any more difficult to run.

Huh? Monsters already have maximum penalties of -5 on their secondary attacks. It's the main reason why melee monsters and their natural weapons are threats and manufactured weapon users really aren't.
A number of monsters just use iteratives, viz. giants, some demons.  Although I don't know exactly what the breakdown is.
They use iteratives when they are using weapons. The houserule isn't PCs only. So, if a giant is wielding a weapon, he has +0/-5/-5/-5. If he uses slam, he uses normal natural attack rules.
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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2011, 04:38:36 PM »
Those of you using the cap it at -5 system, which is one that I personally like as it helps close up the gap between high-BAB iteratives and natural weapons, do you change it for monsters, too?  That's my only hesitation, as I don't want to make monsters any more difficult to run.

Huh? Monsters already have maximum penalties of -5 on their secondary attacks. It's the main reason why melee monsters and their natural weapons are threats and manufactured weapon users really aren't.
A number of monsters just use iteratives, viz. giants, some demons.  Although I don't know exactly what the breakdown is.

Giants are one of the weaker enemies for it. Demons are mainly casters, so it doesn't much matter for them either way.

Offline Bozwevial

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2011, 04:41:32 PM »
I think that's part of the reason that the penalty on iteratives from base attack bonus was capped at -5. It doesn't make most monsters any more powerful, it doesn't require you to recalculate the stat block for every monster with natural weapons, and it helps make those other iterative attacks worth it. That plus the scaling [Combat] feats make base attack bonus actually worth it.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2011, 04:09:38 AM »
But if I do get you, you're saying that +20/15/10/5 hurts the dedicated melee less than the +20/15/15/15 model?
Yep.

Think of it this way. You've got a level 20 Barbarian, he put his five level up points into Str, he even played a +2 Str Race and of course eate a +5 Tome. He has 34 Str before Mighty Rage's +8.
His attack bonus is: +41/+36/+31/+26 = 20 (bab) + 16 (str) + 5 (enhancement)
The die tends to be accounted for as a 10, which is enough to hit every CR 20 monster in the SRD (min 36 vs max ac of 35). Of course this really is just 95%/95%/80%/55% for hit rate not "auto hit".

Now the less melee dedicated Rogue pimped out Int & Dex, and only has 16 in Str after level ups and only got a +4 inherent bonus off the cheaper graft arms. He has 26 Str and only 15 BAB making his bonus to attack +28/+23/+18 = 15 (bab) + 8 (str) + 5 (enhancement) or 65%/40%/15%.

Under the current system of BAB, the Barbarian is around three times more likely to deal damage in a given round. More often than not he hits fir three of his attacks with little effort while the Rogue struggles to hit with even one of them.

Boo bad system right? House fix, penalties stop at -5.
Barbarian has 95%/95%/95%/95%
Rogue has 65%/40%/40%/40%
Hey, looks like a good fix, now we've got the Barbarian always hitting and this little empowerment also gave the Rogue something right? Except, now much of the Barbarian's hit chance as exceeded the required number to hit, and thanks to this global empowerment the Rogue only needs to hit a +35 bonus to have better hit chances than the prebuffed Barbarian. Which is where the flaw is shown, another +6 to attack and the Rogue nearly "caps" his attack chance. Flanking and Flat-Footed alone almost pull this off. Roll a 5 or below and he could miss still but meh, you're just as likely to roll a 15 for Critical Attack to make up for it.

You're not empowering dedicated melee classes. You're empowering the lesser melee classes Like Rogue, Monk or Factotum. given they already have incentives other than numbers for attack chance, they flat out become superior. Rogue's SA, Monk's Unarmed, even the Factotum's Iaijutsu/SA/Copy-Wha? provide better damage bonuses than the Fighter's feats or Barbarian's Rage. They get other tricks like skills or utility or the ability to run away while naked. What they were lacking was hit chance, and you gave it to them on a silver platter without so much as asking them to buy and UMD a Wand of Waithstrike. Hell, even Clerics & Druids end up benefiting more from this than dedicated meleers. Grats, your intended buff widened the gap between McFighter and Codzilla even further rather than bringing them together.

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2011, 04:33:58 AM »
But if I do get you, you're saying that +20/15/10/5 hurts the dedicated melee less than the +20/15/15/15 model?
Yep.

Think of it this way. You've got a level 20 Barbarian, he put his five level up points into Str, he even played a +2 Str Race and of course eate a +5 Tome. He has 34 Str before Mighty Rage's +8.
His attack bonus is: +41/+36/+31/+26 = 20 (bab) + 16 (str) + 5 (enhancement)
The die tends to be accounted for as a 10, which is enough to hit every CR 20 monster in the SRD (min 36 vs max ac of 35). Of course this really is just 95%/95%/80%/55% for hit rate not "auto hit".

Now the less melee dedicated Rogue pimped out Int & Dex, and only has 16 in Str after level ups and only got a +4 inherent bonus off the cheaper graft arms. He has 26 Str and only 15 BAB making his bonus to attack +28/+23/+18 = 15 (bab) + 8 (str) + 5 (enhancement) or 65%/40%/15%.

Under the current system of BAB, the Barbarian is around three times more likely to deal damage in a given round. More often than not he hits fir three of his attacks with little effort while the Rogue struggles to hit with even one of them.

Boo bad system right? House fix, penalties stop at -5.
Barbarian has 95%/95%/95%/95%
Rogue has 65%/40%/40%/40%
Hey, looks like a good fix, now we've got the Barbarian always hitting and this little empowerment also gave the Rogue something right? Except, now much of the Barbarian's hit chance as exceeded the required number to hit, and thanks to this global empowerment the Rogue only needs to hit a +35 bonus to have better hit chances than the prebuffed Barbarian. Which is where the flaw is shown, another +6 to attack and the Rogue nearly "caps" his attack chance. Flanking and Flat-Footed alone almost pull this off. Roll a 5 or below and he could miss still but meh, you're just as likely to roll a 15 for Critical Attack to make up for it.

You're not empowering dedicated melee classes. You're empowering the lesser melee classes Like Rogue, Monk or Factotum. given they already have incentives other than numbers for attack chance, they flat out become superior. Rogue's SA, Monk's Unarmed, even the Factotum's Iaijutsu/SA/Copy-Wha? provide better damage bonuses than the Fighter's feats or Barbarian's Rage. They get other tricks like skills or utility or the ability to run away while naked. What they were lacking was hit chance, and you gave it to them on a silver platter without so much as asking them to buy and UMD a Wand of Waithstrike. Hell, even Clerics & Druids end up benefiting more from this than dedicated meleers. Grats, your intended buff widened the gap between McFighter and Codzilla even further rather than bringing them together.

Except now the barbarian can deal some more damage if he has Power Attack. In the first example, the barbarian lands an average of 3.25 attacks per round. In the 2nd he lands 3.8 attacks average; He can Power Attack for 6 points, gaining 12 more damage (before other Power Attack specific feats come into play) and drop his hit chance to 3.25 attacks/round average (same as first example). This means that on average, the 2nd example barbarian can deal 12*3.25=39 more damage per round while keeping the same accuracy.

Now let's see how much does the rogue gain from the change. His Hit chance is now 65%/40%/40% compared to 65%/40%/15%. This means his average attacks per round goes up from 1.2 to 1.45. If you want to account for variable modifiers such as flanking or flat-footed (that the rogue will have) the difference remains the same (0.25 attacks/round) for any value that doesn't make first attack autohit (it's x%/(x-25)%/(x-50)% vs. x%/(x-25)%/(x-25)% ).

In order to say that the rogue benefits more from the change, the 0.25 attacks per round difference should produce more damage than the barbarian's damage gain (39).
This means we're looking for a rogue that deals 156 damage/attack on average. Let's say he Sneak Attacks with a +5 Greatsword (it's the martial weapon with highest average damage) and he has both Craven and Martial Stance: Assasin's Stance for a bit of Sneak Attack optimization. His damage is 2d6+5(weapon)+12d6+12(Sneak attack)+12(1.5x str)=78 damage per attack. That's exactly half of what's needed.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2011, 06:07:07 AM »
Your model says the Rogue hits once, not twice, not TWFs, no PAs, not charges like the Barb probably will, just stands there and hits once. and 20th level he only has 12d6 SA too, you can buy +6d6 in a wand for damn near a 10th of the price of a +5 Tome but damn 12d6 is ALL he could do even is splat booking ToB (you know, same book with a couple extra attacks per rounds boosts and free bonus damage per attack). God, I thought 28 Str was too much for my Rogue example and kept bonus attacks out of things, you on the other hand shot yours in the legs repeatedly.

And for what? you didn't debunk my point on capped penalties doesn't improve the Rogue more than the Barbarian, you proved a Max Str Barb using PA out damages a gimped Rogue using the same hit chances I used. In fact, you're literally showcasing the fact the Barbarian's superior chances to hit is giving him the edge which if anything better proves my point not debunks it.

Think back to those Damage Bonuses you your self show cased.
Barbarian: 48 = 7 (2d6) + 16 (34 str + 8 mighty) + 8 (thf) + 12 (pa6*2) + 5 (enh) // 56? Yeah, you're numbers of off to begin with.
Rogue: 86 = 7 (2d6) + 8 (26 str) + 4 (thf) + 5 (enh) + 12d6+20 (sa)
Per hit, the gimped Rogue is out damaging the Barbarian, in fact any given round the Rogue hit's twice is the same round the Barbarian must hit with all four attacks to surpass him. and the Barbarian is the dedicated meleer here, not the Rogue. It isn't the Rogue's job to surpass the Barbarian, the guy running the Rogue isn't googling porn at the game table while everyone else play this "none-combat" section like the guy running the Barbarian. It's the Barbarian that better pay attention or be voted off the island of usefulness.

Let me reiterate here. The difference is the Barbarian is sitting at +41 and you need say +54 to hit with 2s or higher since best monster AC is 35. The newer system is akin to handing the Barbarian a +13 bonus to attack since he hits the 95%/all range using it. The Rogue had a +28 to attack, he needs a further +26 bonus to hit with all three of his attacks 95% of the time but under the newer system he only needs +11. And unlike the Barbarian or fighter, the Rogue would continue to see changing in his hit chances for Flanking or hitting Flat-Footed foes. Say he does both, the Rogue is effectively setting at 7 points away from hitting with 2s. Before the change the Barbarian was 13 away, after the change the Rogue is 7 away from that hit with a 2. This is what I am talking about. The system skips needing 15 points worth of attack bonus, in shoves dedicated meleers into an unneeded over kill range and lesser dedicated get to see the full bonus.

You're back there going Barb needs to hit twice as often as the Rogue in order to deal more damage and saying nothing would change if the Rogue suddenly gained a better hit rate. It becomes a realistic possibility that, without wands, the Rogue hits three times per round invalidating the Barb's chance of having double the number of successful attacks with very little effort.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 06:09:49 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2011, 07:15:48 AM »


Think back to those Damage Bonuses you your self show cased.
Barbarian: 48 = 7 (2d6) + 16 (34 str + 8 mighty) + 8 (thf) + 12 (pa6*2) + 5 (enh) // 56? Yeah, you're numbers of off to begin with.
Rogue: 86 = 7 (2d6) + 8 (26 str) + 4 (thf) + 5 (enh) + 12d6+20 (sa)
Per hit, the gimped Rogue is out damaging the Barbarian, in fact any given round the Rogue hit's twice is the same round the Barbarian must hit with all four attacks to surpass him. and the Barbarian is the dedicated meleer here, not the Rogue. It isn't the Rogue's job to surpass the Barbarian, the guy running the Rogue isn't googling porn at the game table while everyone else play this "none-combat" section like the guy running the Barbarian. It's the Barbarian that better pay attention or be voted off the island of usefulness.
The 39 was the amount of damage a barbarian would gain from being able to power attack more while keeping the same chance to hit (on average). Still  you're right, I didn't exactly optimize the rogue (and neither the barbarian BTW, otherwise it would have been charge 4xautohit attacks vs. AC 35 each dealing enough damage to kill anything).

Let me reiterate here. The difference is the Barbarian is sitting at +41 and you need say +54 to hit with 2s or higher since best monster AC is 35. The newer system is akin to handing the Barbarian a +13 bonus to attack since he hits the 95%/all range using it. The Rogue had a +28 to attack, he needs a further +26 bonus to hit with all three of his attacks 95% of the time but under the newer system he only needs +11. And unlike the Barbarian or fighter, the Rogue would continue to see changing in his hit chances for Flanking or hitting Flat-Footed foes. Say he does both, the Rogue is effectively setting at 7 points away from hitting with 2s. Before the change the Barbarian was 13 away, after the change the Rogue is 7 away from that hit with a 2. This is what I am talking about. The system skips needing 15 points worth of attack bonus, in shoves dedicated meleers into an unneeded over kill range and lesser dedicated get to see the full bonus.

You're back there going Barb needs to hit twice as often as the Rogue in order to deal more damage and saying nothing would change if the Rogue suddenly gained a better hit rate. It becomes a realistic possibility that, without wands, the Rogue hits three times per round invalidating the Barb's chance of having double the number of successful attacks with very little effort.

Not sure where do you get the +13 for the barbarian.

Barb attacks at +41/+36/+31/+26. Needs a +8 to auto-hit everything  vs. AC 35. New barb attacks at +41/+36/+36/+36, already autohits everything. So the new system has handed the barb a +9 to attack.
Rogue attacks at +28/+23/+18. Needs a + 16 to autohit everything vs. AC 35. New rogue attacks at +28/+23/+23. Needs a +11 to autohit everything vs. AC 35. So he gained +5.
I really don't see how did the rogue benefit more?

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2011, 07:19:39 AM »
You're not making any sense. You're also not describing the situation accurately.

The Barbarian is just there for damage, and his HP pool. That's it.

The Rogue can supposedly do other things, but those things don't really matter. So he's also just damage, but he has the lowest HP of anyone in the party, bad saves in both the areas that count... just about anything can one round him, so he damn well better be able to put out some damage to save himself. He can't, as any decent Barbarian will still outdamage him.

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Wy iterative attacks get penalties?
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2011, 08:46:53 AM »
The change is far more about pulling melee damage up, than caring about the specifics of any one class.  The relative power of the melee classes changes very little, as this method is basically just a damage multiplier.  The important part is that it closes the gap a little between the true big boys of melee (ie. druid, other polymorphed casters) and the dedicated fighters.  It doesn't do a whole lot, but it does help. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 09:31:19 AM by Mooncrow »