Spotting the Sun

[Agita]

Not all of it is super overpowered, most TO skill use or things like the ranger who can shoot in 10 mile range increments (but cant spot people at that range) are not what I would call overpowered.

Spot rules are pretty dumb sometimes. I haven't done the math, but I'm willing to bet the -1 per 10 feet rule makes the sun effectively invisible, even with however much of that is negated by its size categories.

Decided to do the math on a whim.
I assume the distance of the campaign world to the sun to be 1AU, or approximately 1.5x10^11 m, or a bit under 5x10^11 feet, resulting in a penalty of about -5x10^10 to see the sun. In any given campaign setting, the sun might be closer (or farther away), but given that this is the only measure we have, it's the only useful assumption.
The average diameter of the sun is about 1.4x10^9 m, or just under 4.6x10^9 feet. If we consider Fine to be size category 0, then the formula for an object or creature's maximum size in a given size category is 0.5*2^n, where n is the size category. So the size category of the sun is log₂(2*4.6x10^9ft), rounded up, or 34. That puts us a total of 30 size categories above Medium, so extrapolating the progression of k*4, where k is the amount of size categories above Medium, we get a Hide penalty of -120.

So, yeah. Good luck making up that difference, even if we assume being a giant ball of plasma gives you a further penalty.

[oslecamo]

So, yeah. Good luck making up that difference, even if we assume being a giant ball of plasma gives you a further penalty.

Please, being covered with simple, harmless glitter packs a whooping -40 penalty to hide checks. Being a giant ball of plasma that is the main source of life in your planet and melts the very surface of the planets that are closer  from it would pack a penalty multiple orders of degree higher.

After all, the moon is much closer than the sun, but will still be effectively invisible at night when it is unable to reflect the sun's light (new moon phase), despite being a massively giant body. If the sun was not a giant ball of plasma, we effectively would be unable to spot it whitout some tech help in real life.

[Halinn]

So, yeah. Good luck making up that difference, even if we assume being a giant ball of plasma gives you a further penalty.

Please, being covered with simple, harmless glitter packs a whooping -40 penalty to hide checks. Being a giant ball of plasma that is the main source of life in your planet and melts the very surface of the planets that are closer  from it would pack a penalty multiple orders of degree higher.

Then make it -40 billion. That's still an invisible sun.

[oslecamo]

So, yeah. Good luck making up that difference, even if we assume being a giant ball of plasma gives you a further penalty.

Please, being covered with simple, harmless glitter packs a whooping -40 penalty to hide checks. Being a giant ball of plasma that is the main source of life in your planet and melts the very surface of the planets that are closer  from it would pack a penalty multiple orders of degree higher.

Then make it -40 billion. That's still an invisible sun.

-40 billion is a million millions, aka -40 000 000 000 000, aka -40 at the order of 12. Surpasses the Spot DC (in the order of 10) by two orders of magnitude. Where's the problem again?

[Halinn]

A billion (on the short scale, standard in the english language) is 10⁹, also known as a thousand millions.

[Bozwevial]

So, yeah. Good luck making up that difference, even if we assume being a giant ball of plasma gives you a further penalty.

Please, being covered with simple, harmless glitter packs a whooping -40 penalty to hide checks. Being a giant ball of plasma that is the main source of life in your planet and melts the very surface of the planets that are closer  from it would pack a penalty multiple orders of degree higher.

Then make it -40 billion. That's still an invisible sun.

-40 billion is a million millions, aka -40 000 000 000 000, aka -40 at the order of 12. Surpasses the Spot DC (in the order of 10) by two orders of magnitude. Where's the problem again?

A billion is a thousand millions, or 40 times 10^9.

Edit: Swordsaged.

Incidentally, fire elementals don't take penalties to Hide checks for being made of fire.

[oslecamo]

A billion (on the short scale, standard in the english language) is 10⁹, also known as a thousand millions.

That's still -40 in the order of 9 vs -5 in the order of 10. So actually the same order. Not too shabby. Add another degree or two to the light's intensity penalty and it's all ok.

Incidentally, fire elementals don't take penalties to Hide checks for being made of fire.

They also don't take matter or oxygen to burn and don't raise the temperature of the air around them, and you can hit them with spears whitout said spears ever geting burned, so the logic conclusion is that theyre made of magic fire that doesn't release radiation naturally.

[Agita]

A billion is a thousand millions, or 40 times 10^9.

Edit: Swordsaged.

Incidentally, fire elementals don't take penalties to Hide checks for being made of fire.

Indeed, which would leave the penalty at -10^10, ignoring that I don't see being made of plasma imposing that high a penalty.
At best, you can handwave it as "the sun is automatically visible or it wouldn't, you know, illuminate the earth", but any 'you can't see the sun' joke isn't going to care about common sense. Discussing arbitrary penalties to fix it is kind of meaningless, as the point was that the rules as presented create the silliness.

[oslecamo]

A billion is a thousand millions, or 40 times 10^9.

Edit: Swordsaged.

Incidentally, fire elementals don't take penalties to Hide checks for being made of fire.

Indeed, which would leave the penalty at -10^10, ignoring that I don't see being made of plasma imposing that high a penalty.
At best, you can handwave it as "the sun is automatically visible or it wouldn't, you know, illuminate the earth", but any 'you can't see the sun' joke isn't going to care about common sense.

Because, as already pointed out, if the sun wasn't a giant ball of plasma, you wouldn't be able to see it in real life.

Adressed the fire elemental matter on the previous post. Aka they don't behave like normal fire at all, so it's natural they would stand in the middle of a dark room and you can't see them unless you have darkvision.

Discussing arbitrary penalties to fix it is kind of meaningless, as the point was that the rules as presented create the silliness.

I dare you to find the rule that doesn't say the sun doesn't get hide penalties. Or the rule that states how far the sun is from the campaign's plane.

[Bozwevial]

Indeed, which would leave the penalty at -10^10, ignoring that I don't see being made of plasma imposing that high a penalty.
At best, you can handwave it as "the sun is automatically visible or it wouldn't, you know, illuminate the earth", but any 'you can't see the sun' joke isn't going to care about common sense. Discussing arbitrary penalties to fix it is kind of meaningless, as the point was that the rules as presented create the silliness.

You could always go off what's listed in the Invisibility spell and have light appear to come from no particular source.

Might be an interesting hook. Some crazy astronomer thinks he's discovered a giant fireball in the sky that he calls "the sun."

Adressed the fire elemental matter on the previous post. Aka they don't behave like normal fire at all, so it's natural they would stand in the middle of a dark room and you can't see them unless you have darkvision.

But if you touch them they absolutely burn you.

[oslecamo]

Adressed the fire elemental matter on the previous post. Aka they don't behave like normal fire at all, so it's natural they would stand in the middle of a dark room and you can't see them unless you have darkvision.

But if you touch them they absolutely burn you.

Touch them as a non-attack action. No burn.

Grab your companion and use it as an improvised weapon. They won't get burned!

[Bozwevial]

Adressed the fire elemental matter on the previous post. Aka they don't behave like normal fire at all, so it's natural they would stand in the middle of a dark room and you can't see them unless you have darkvision.

But if you touch them they absolutely burn you.

Grab your companion and use it as an improvised weapon. They won't get burned!

On that note, I just did some poking around. Unless I am very much missing something, setting yourself on fire also doesn't impose a Hide penalty (or Move Silently, for that matter).

[darqueseid]

Technically in real life you don't "see" the sun itself.  I think everyone would be hard pressed to describe a certain fixture or the terrain of the sun while viewing it with the naked eye.  Can you look at the sun and describe the sunspots for example?

What you actually see are the photons it emits.  They take on a circular shape and grow more intense as you look at thier source but your not really seeing the sun.

So it would make sense that you would need an insanely difficult spot check to actually see the sun imho.

[darqueseid]

Adressed the fire elemental matter on the previous post. Aka they don't behave like normal fire at all, so it's natural they would stand in the middle of a dark room and you can't see them unless you have darkvision.

But if you touch them they absolutely burn you.

Touch them as a non-attack action. No burn.

Grab your companion and use it as an improvised weapon. They won't get burned!

But you would lol

[oslecamo]

Adressed the fire elemental matter on the previous post. Aka they don't behave like normal fire at all, so it's natural they would stand in the middle of a dark room and you can't see them unless you have darkvision.

But if you touch them they absolutely burn you.

Grab your companion and use it as an improvised weapon. They won't get burned!

On that note, I just did some poking around. Unless I am very much missing something, setting yourself on fire also doesn't impose a Hide penalty (or Move Silently, for that matter).

Indeed.

On the other hand, the sun is stated to be visible in pretty much every campaign setting.

Technically in real life you don't "see" the sun itself.  I think everyone would be hard pressed to describe a certain fixture or the terrain of the sun while viewing it with the naked eye.  Can you look at the sun and describe the sunspots for example?

What you actually see are the photons it emits.  They take on a circular shape and grow more intense as you look at thier source but your not really seeing the sun.

So it would make sense that you would need an insanely difficult spot check to actually see the sun imho.

That too. Good luck actually geting any level of detail of the Sun with the naked eye.

[Agita]

On the other hand, the sun is stated to be visible in pretty much every campaign setting.

Yes, and the fluff to mechanics disconnect is the whole point of the joke.

That said, if we're going to continue beating this horse, I propose moving it to a thread that isn't supposed to be about a new user asking questions about boards lingo. I can split the thread, if necessary.

[Bozwevial]

Nah, I'm not in any particular hurry to continue.

If you do wind up splitting it off, though, I may come by and help it on its journey to glue status.

[Halinn]

On the other hand, the sun is stated to be visible in pretty much every campaign setting.

Even Dark Sun?

[veekie]

You could also argue that the Sun is always visible because theres no concealment or cover sufficient to obscure it as long as you are in an open area. After all, you cannot hide without cover or concealment.

[oslecamo]

On the other hand, the sun is stated to be visible in pretty much every campaign setting.

Yes, and the fluff to mechanics disconnect is the whole point of the joke.

So even your  admit your previous argument was a simple joke at best? I admit your concession then.