Saint

[oslecamo]

Paragon spellcasting excellences demand you to already have spellcasting of a kind to advance it.

So the only way you could pull that off is if you're already a multiclass cleric/wizard, meaning you're delaying both your spellcastings. Aka you end up a wannabe mysthic theurge.

Thus put the clause in the same clause in virtues that you need to have basic magic/music/etc if you want to advance it, since indeed the purpose of the saint isn't to give spellcasting out of nowhere.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

So, does this mean Saint will be added to the list of classes that can take Extra Option? My objections to that idea have been satisfactorily addressed.

[oslecamo]

Yes, now that the quirks have been worked out, altough I added the extra clause you need to take both saint levels.
Also moved the recent feats, trait and flaw to the first post of the respective thread.

[Jackinthegreen]

The original Saint had its AC boost based on Wisdom.  Could that be an option for this version as well (especially since so many things are already based on Charisma) or could there be a variant Serenity feat from Dragon 306 that switches the AC bonus from Cha to Wis like it switches things from Cha to Wis for paladins?

[oslecamo]

Added Serene Saint feat.

[VennDygrem]

Holy Power increases the Saint's ability DCs by 1, and goes on to say they increase by 2 at second Saint level. Is this meant to be an increase by 1 to +2 at second Saint level, or a sum total of +3 at second Saint level? Just want to make sure I understand, as the original Saint increases abilities by +2, though the wording as written here indicate the total would be +3. If it's meant to only be +2, perhaps change it so it reads: "Holy Power: All save DCs of any and all of the Saint's abilities improve by +1. At second Saint level they improve by a further +1, to a total increase of +2."

[oslecamo]

Done.

[DavidWL]

Combine 'fair fight' with the ancient temple 6th level stance,  "Delusion of Enlightenment", and you can apply all melee  attacks to all in ~100 feet.

Talk about a fair fight ☺️

Best,
David

[Ellowryn]

I have a question about the purity virtue:  Is it your intent to allow the saint to use magic items (such as gloves of dexterity)?  I went through the DMG and MiC and could not find anywhere that magic items were magical effects.  Granted i could have missed where it stated that, but the question still stands.

[oslecamo]

Yes, it would be fine for a Purity Saint to still use magic items as long as they are not spell trigger.

[Anomander]

Fair Fight-The Saint can never be caught flat-footed and ignores all concealment and all cover except full cover. However the Saint's enemies are never flat-footed against her attacks (she always warns them beforehand), neither can the Saint benefit from concealment or cover except for full cover. The Saint also becomes immune to flanking but cannot provide flanking bonuses. If the Saint has multiple enemies whitin melee reach, she can target all of them with each melee attack (roll once and compare to their ACs), including mirror images and similar, but doesn't gain any bonus attacks from cleave and similar.

How does that interact with invisibility and similar effects? Does it only make them all ignore the miss chance or does it make them ignore the non-visibility aspect as well? Since it can be interpreted that concealment is a benefit of not being seen rather than not being seen being a benefit from concealment.
Because if the later case, a Saint in magical darkness would be seen by his enemies despite blackness filling everything else. And vice-versa.

Is it also correct to interpret that ignoring concealment only limits it to the miss chances specifically gained by concealment rather than concealment-like effects or non-categorized miss chances, so a Saint could still benefit from effects such as that of a Displacement spell? Or perhaps it was intended to encompass all sources of miss chances?

[oslecamo]

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.

As per the Invisibility description, total concealment seems to be a separate subcomponent besides one being unable to see them.
Darkness makes you blinded if you don't have any ability for that, which does grant enemies total concealment besides a bunch of extra penalties. Like making spot checks auto-fail, so you need listen to find out your enemy's positions.

Displacement says it works like total concealment so would be ignored.

Either way, if the Saint ignores something, they can't benefit from it themselves either.

[Raineh Daze]

So if a Saint pinpoints where someone is, they're going to ignore any concealment, but the other creatures also ignores any concealment the Saint might benefit from?

[oslecamo]

The saint's own concealment would be useless regardless of them succeeding on any listen check or not.

[Anomander]

Sounds good!

What of every other sources of miss chance % that aren't specifically concealment? (since, much like the Displacement effect, those grant a miss chance as if it had a form of concealment while, unlike actual concealment, they do not prevent enemies from targeting the Saint normally.)
Such as that new Super Robot upgrade.