Author Topic: Arhosa Discussion and Notes  (Read 76985 times)

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2014, 10:46:36 AM »
I just noticed that due to the prerequisite spell seeds, choices for your first level Forte for the Arcanist and Ecclesiast are nearly non-existent. The Ecclesiast only has two choices (Fettered Strength or Healer's Gift). The only choice for the Arcanist is Repeating Magic... which comes with a hefty restriction (I would probably never choose this).

Also, since these two classes cannot change which Fortes they have, they are stuck with the penalties from them (unlike the historian), making these penalties more severe (an arcanist with Repeating Magic can never combine spell seeds...). I guess that's OK, but it is going to have much more of an impact on these classes than the historian, which was probably an unintended consequence?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 10:51:58 AM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2014, 10:54:04 AM »
I just noticed that due to the prerequisite spell seeds, choices for your first level Forte for the Arcanist and Ecclesiast are nearly non-existent. The Ecclesiast only has two choices (Fettered Strength or Healer's Gift). The only choice for the Arcanist is Repeating Magic... which comes with a hefty restriction (I would probably never choose this).

Also, since these two classes cannot change which Fortes they have, they are stuck with the penalties from them (unlike the historian), making these penalties more severe (an arcanist with Repeating Magic can never combine spell seeds...).

Yup, I know about it. Was thinking of moving the first Forte back to when they get 2 spell seeds, which does mess up the level progression some, or at least makes it strange. I might also drop the restrictions for the Arhosan caster classes. They're originally there as flavour restrictions on the Historian gluing himself into the mindset of a certain type of caster.

There is currently a way around it, but they'd have to spend their first feat on it, which seems a bit harsh.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2014, 04:39:59 PM »
You know... how about just giving them both another Spell Seed at first level? Having only a single one is pretty weak for a 1st level character, anyway... and they are supposed to be the primary spellcasters. Even the 1st level sorcerer gets three 1st level spells, and a few 0th levels.

Edit: And how about a Favored Seed feat that gives you a reduction in the spell point cost when you combine any spell seed with the one chosen when you take this feat? (Like one half the benefit of the Arcanist capstone ability... but without having to wait till 20th level to get it. :P )
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 04:48:38 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2014, 04:57:41 PM »
You know... how about just giving them both another Spell Seed at first level? Having only a single one is pretty weak for a 1st level character, anyway... and they are supposed to be the primary spellcasters. Even the 1st level sorcerer gets three 1st level spells, and a few 0th levels.

Edit: And how about a Favored Seed feat that gives you a reduction in the spell point cost when you combine any spell seed with the one chosen when you take this feat? (Like one half the benefit of the Arcanist capstone ability... but without having to wait till 20th level to get it. :P )

Yes, and with that, the Sorc is still a tier two class...

I'm not really bothered by primary casters being weaker than in the PHB, given that's kind of the point. Also, each seed is supposed to count as at least three spells known. Often, they're a fair bit more, over the levels. It's not as much as a wizard, no, but it is as much as a Psion or Sorcerer.

So, yes, it's possible to give them more seeds, but I'm not sure it's a step I want to take yet.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2014, 05:49:27 PM »
You know... how about just giving them both another Spell Seed at first level? Having only a single one is pretty weak for a 1st level character, anyway... and they are supposed to be the primary spellcasters. Even the 1st level sorcerer gets three 1st level spells, and a few 0th levels.

Edit: And how about a Favored Seed feat that gives you a reduction in the spell point cost when you combine any spell seed with the one chosen when you take this feat? (Like one half the benefit of the Arcanist capstone ability... but without having to wait till 20th level to get it. :P )

Yes, and with that, the Sorc is still a tier two class...

I'm not really bothered by primary casters being weaker than in the PHB, given that's kind of the point. Also, each seed is supposed to count as at least three spells known. Often, they're a fair bit more, over the levels. It's not as much as a wizard, no, but it is as much as a Psion or Sorcerer.

So, yes, it's possible to give them more seeds, but I'm not sure it's a step I want to take yet.
A thought: if you dropped the categorization of the Eras/Fortes, it would allow more choices at 1st level, and the restrictions would still mostly stand, as the arcanist wouldn't be able to get the required spell seeds for the prayer eras you probably don't want him to have, and vice versa. This would allow for an Ecclesiast focused on summoning/binding, for example (taking That Which Comes Between Us), which seems like it should be doable.
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2014, 10:23:53 PM »
Works for me. Eras aren't particularly class specific.

Btw, the goal for the Ecclesiast is much more 2e cleric than 3e. In as much as the spells come from certain spheres, in this case limited seeds, rather than getting everything all the time.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2014, 01:10:40 AM »
Works for me. Eras aren't particularly class specific.

Btw, the goal for the Ecclesiast is much more 2e cleric than 3e. In as much as the spells come from certain spheres, in this case limited seeds, rather than getting everything all the time.
That's a much better approach. I hate the casting of clerics and druids in 3.5, honestly. It's waaaaay over the top.

I'm trying to decide between an arcanist and ecclesiast for your upcoming game. Will probably go with Extra Spell Seed and the That Which Lies Between Us forte, either way. ;)
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2014, 06:06:41 AM »
Intent on playing a summoner, are you? One of my favorite class archetypes :D

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2014, 12:46:36 PM »
Intent on playing a summoner, are you? One of my favorite class archetypes :D
It seems like it could work quite well given how the spell seeds can be combined. Summoning pre-buffed monsters is pretty tricky to do in standard D&D. It looks like one thing this system might actually be better at. :P The fact that you can effectively get Planar Binding/Ally/Gate at level 1 is pretty sweet, also.  :cool
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 12:51:12 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2014, 01:30:10 PM »
Well, maybe you'll convince me to break that seed apart. Since it is kind of awesome.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2014, 09:33:56 PM »
Can the chronomancer use his slices at will? I don't see a "per day" section anywhere.
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Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2014, 09:35:49 PM »
It's in the Chrono rules section - once an encounter, 10 minute action to recover them all.

Here's the direct link.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 09:38:51 PM by Stratovarius »

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2014, 09:37:25 PM »
The feats that reduce the martial point cost of fusillade should have a disclaimer that they cannot reduce the cost below 1 point, otherwise 0 - point cost fusillade could be stacked infinitely without hitting the max point limit. A player could easily have an effectively infinite bonus to - hit or on damage, or both, with a one-level dip and a feat.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2014, 09:42:09 PM »
The feats that reduce the martial point cost of fusillade should have a disclaimer that they cannot reduce the cost below 1 point, otherwise 0 - point cost fusillade could be stacked infinitely without hitting the max point limit. A player could easily have an effectively infinite bonus to - hit or on damage, or both, with a one-level dip and a feat.

Not how it works. A Fusillade is the complete attack, not the individual item. So a fusilier can use a 1 point costing Fusillade infinitely, but if they want anything more than a very basic standard action attack, they need to start forking over the martial points.

I probably need to name the lower level items something else, but I didn't want to steal the names straight out of ToB.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2014, 01:01:37 AM »
The feats that reduce the martial point cost of fusillade should have a disclaimer that they cannot reduce the cost below 1 point, otherwise 0 - point cost fusillade could be stacked infinitely without hitting the max point limit. A player could easily have an effectively infinite bonus to - hit or on damage, or both, with a one-level dip and a feat.

Not how it works. A Fusillade is the complete attack, not the individual item. So a fusilier can use a 1 point costing Fusillade infinitely, but if they want anything more than a very basic standard action attack, they need to start forking over the martial points.

I probably need to name the lower level items something else, but I didn't want to steal the names straight out of ToB.

Fusillade components, maybe?

I'm not a fan of the Magic of the Sun and Stars feat with the current version of Day/Nightlight feats. Until you actually have all 7 feats (level 18 without bonus feats, level 15 for humans and strongheart halflings), you're setting feats on fire for no benefit. Most of the feats on opposite sides cancel each other out (Daylight Glows/Darkness Comes, for example, and those two are required), or you could have some rather significant penalties and conditions alongside your minor spellcasting boosts. As such, if you go for it from a low level character, at best you're gaining nothing at all from your feats for a long time, and at worst you're crippling yourself in about 90% of common situations. Then, when you suddenly get the capstone of that feat chain, you become super awesome 90% of the time. Or, if you're starting off at high level, you can skip the first 17 levels in which you had no feats.

I'm not sure most of the feats are actually that super awesome even when combined, other than the spellcasting boost that the increased spell point cap and free spell points gives when combined with the more versatile spell seeds (most just scale numerically with more spell points, but the ones that summon creatures or duplicate spells from a whole school have much greater potential with each additional point or two). The one that gives Half-Celestial to your summons is also pretty strong (cast one spell to have another creature around with some pretty strong SLAs, some of which are potentially above your own level of casting). Umbral template has the potential to give you your own Shadow army (+15 SP to make a summoning spell seed permanent, just have your umbral celestial owl kill off all the enemies you knocked out, or hunt down forest animals or whatever).

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2014, 02:55:56 AM »
Ah, I guess I was confused by the part that mentions stacking: "Stacking: The fusilier can pay the point cost multiple times. Each time he does, he gains those benefits again (see Combining Fusillades, below)." That still seems a bit confusing even with the rewrite of the fusillade combining section. Sounds like you could stack the same component by paying the cost again (ie: gain +2 to your attack roll on the fusillade attack by applying Aimed Blow twice and paying 2 martial points).

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2014, 07:26:13 AM »
Ah, I guess I was confused by the part that mentions stacking: "Stacking: The fusilier can pay the point cost multiple times. Each time he does, he gains those benefits again (see Combining Fusillades, below)." That still seems a bit confusing even with the rewrite of the fusillade combining section. Sounds like you could stack the same component by paying the cost again (ie: gain +2 to your attack roll on the fusillade attack by applying Aimed Blow twice and paying 2 martial points).

You can. But what happens with the feat is "(point cost * stack) - 1", rather than the minus being inside the parenthesis. It only subtracts from the total cost of the fusillade, not the individual component.

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2014, 11:19:03 AM »
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Makes much more sense now.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2014, 11:23:34 AM »
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Makes much more sense now.

Currently, there is no ability that can reduce the point cost of the individual component. Or at least, I don't remember making one. Everything applies to the aggregate final point total. The same is true for spell seed casting.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Arhosa Discussion and Notes
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2014, 10:57:39 AM »
I'm not a fan of the Magic of the Sun and Stars feat with the current version of Day/Nightlight feats. Until you actually have all 7 feats (level 18 without bonus feats, level 15 for humans and strongheart halflings), you're setting feats on fire for no benefit. Most of the feats on opposite sides cancel each other out (Daylight Glows/Darkness Comes, for example, and those two are required), or you could have some rather significant penalties and conditions alongside your minor spellcasting boosts. As such, if you go for it from a low level character, at best you're gaining nothing at all from your feats for a long time, and at worst you're crippling yourself in about 90% of common situations. Then, when you suddenly get the capstone of that feat chain, you become super awesome 90% of the time. Or, if you're starting off at high level, you can skip the first 17 levels in which you had no feats.

I'm not sure most of the feats are actually that super awesome even when combined, other than the spellcasting boost that the increased spell point cap and free spell points gives when combined with the more versatile spell seeds (most just scale numerically with more spell points, but the ones that summon creatures or duplicate spells from a whole school have much greater potential with each additional point or two). The one that gives Half-Celestial to your summons is also pretty strong (cast one spell to have another creature around with some pretty strong SLAs, some of which are potentially above your own level of casting). Umbral template has the potential to give you your own Shadow army (+15 SP to make a summoning spell seed permanent, just have your umbral celestial owl kill off all the enemies you knocked out, or hunt down forest animals or whatever).

Adjusted them so they don't cancel one another out (the boost is always the stronger part). Also reworked a few penalties.

And turned them into a prestige class, which was kind of the plan once I got them finished. So it's much faster to finish them off.

I also might rewrite Master of the Sun and the Stars so it does something slightly different.