Author Topic: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion  (Read 16699 times)

Offline SleepyShadow

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The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« on: January 24, 2012, 04:04:24 AM »
How'd I do? Any thoughts on improvement? Anything I left out? Anything you would like me to post, such as races, feats, builds, multiclassing, or anything of that ilk? Feedback of any sort is appreciated  :D

[EDIT] Also, Handbook: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2823
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 01:42:44 PM by SleepyShadow »

Offline Waazraath

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 06:19:40 PM »
To start: nice, good that the Ninja finally got a handbook... one existed on the old WoTC site, but format changes made a lot of the text disappear (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19862382/The_Complete_Ninja_-_Guide_38;_Handbook).

One comment:

I think one of the most important abilities of the Ninja deserves more attention: ghost strike. It's one of the very few abilities I know that allows you to attack creature on the martial plane, while being on the ethereal plane. So many opponents are totally helpless against this...

I made (quick) build focussing on this strength, for a kind of planeswalking assassin:
- Ninja (CA) 8, jaunter (4), crusader (8) ; ninja for ghost strike, jaunter gives great mobility options and planeshift, crusader a good BaB, hp, save reroll and great maneuvers
- feats (no flaws): dodge (human), mobility (1), craven (3), spring attack (6), power attack (9), *open* (12), ready extra maneuver (15), *open* (18),
- Scythe for flavor (dark templar, anyone?)
- Get divine surge as maneuver, aura of chaos as a stance, spell storing weapon with vampiric touch (if caster is available in the party) as weapon, strike for 2d4 + 4d6 + 8d8 + 10d6 + 20 + str, reroll all max rolls on a die.

Offline SleepyShadow

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 02:33:07 PM »
I definitely like it. I must admit I didn't know about the Jaunter, and I'm definitely going to list it, thank you. Another thing that surprised me is the use of Crusader. Given that the class abilities, the maneuvers, and the stances it gets all lend themselves toward tanking, it hadn't every really crossed my mind to blend the two together. Very original  :clap

As for the level 12 and 18 feats, I would go with Dark Stalker and Expanded Ki Pool. Thoughts?

Offline Waazraath

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2012, 06:39:21 PM »
I definitely like it. I must admit I didn't know about the Jaunter, and I'm definitely going to list it, thank you. Another thing that surprised me is the use of Crusader. Given that the class abilities, the maneuvers, and the stances it gets all lend themselves toward tanking, it hadn't every really crossed my mind to blend the two together. Very original  :clap

As for the level 12 and 18 feats, I would go with Dark Stalker and Expanded Ki Pool. Thoughts?

Thnx! As for the feats, these are good choices. I like staggering strike (CAd) as well, free (small) debuff. I left those 2 slots open cause all the other ones are, more or less, must have's.

Offline Garryl

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 04:29:42 PM »
Armor Proficiency (Light) - One of the few times that it's worth the feat to take. You may not start out with any armor proficiency, but the only ability you lose while wearing it is Ninja Dodge, and you can even keep that if your armor check penalty is 0.

Just worth noting that if your ACP is 0, you don't suffer any penalties for nonproficiency with your armor anyways. So you might want to reevaluate this feat for the Rokugan Ninja, and just recommend leather armor, masterwork studded leather, or mithral chain shirts anyways.

Offline SleepyShadow

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 04:43:59 PM »
Huh ... I just reread that bit in the PHB.

So, what, everyone can use leather armor without problems? That seems so .... well ...  :banghead  :banghead  :banghead

Thank you for pointing that out.

Offline Garryl

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2012, 09:06:17 PM »
Not Wizards, Sorcerers, and Monks, who happen to be the only PHB classes to not get light armor proficiency. Silly ASF and unarmored class features.

Edit: Outside of Core, only Psions, Dragonfire Adepts, and Ninjas lack light armor proficiency, IIRC (plus the Unarmed Swordsage, but that's a variant so it doesn't count). The first two don't care, but CA Ninjas have that Wis to AC class feature. Do Ninjas have anything else that requires them to be unarmored?

Don't forget all your other references to picking up armor proficiency for the Rokugan Ninja (there's a few in the multiclassing sections). Just make sure to mention that you can wear ACP 0 armor without penalty so the lack of proficiency doesn't really matter.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 09:14:27 PM by Garryl »

Offline SleepyShadow

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 04:48:13 AM »
No, nothing that I've spotted at any rate. I appreciate you catching that for me, thanks.

Offline Amechra

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2012, 10:47:36 AM »
You know what is silly fun?

A NinjaCA 2/Monk 2/Rokugan Ninja 16.

Why is that silly fun?

Ascetic Stalker (take it as your 2nd Monk Bonus Feat) specifically states that your levels in the Monk and Ninja classes stack.

Both the CA Ninja and the Rokugan Ninja are just called Ninja, iirc.

So you would get full Ki Power, Unarmed Damage, and Ki Strike progressions, and also...

BAB +18. How do you like dem apples?

[Note: I am AFB right now, so I'm not sure if the above actually works. Please, take this with a grain of salt.]
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline SleepyShadow

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2012, 06:00:05 PM »
You know what is silly fun?

A NinjaCA 2/Monk 2/Rokugan Ninja 16.

Why is that silly fun?

Ascetic Stalker (take it as your 2nd Monk Bonus Feat) specifically states that your levels in the Monk and Ninja classes stack.

Both the CA Ninja and the Rokugan Ninja are just called Ninja, iirc.

So you would get full Ki Power, Unarmed Damage, and Ki Strike progressions, and also...

BAB +18. How do you like dem apples?

[Note: I am AFB right now, so I'm not sure if the above actually works. Please, take this with a grain of salt.]

Technically correct, as both types of ninja are just called 'ninja', but I doubt that a DM would allow it. Still, it seems RAW, so I will make a mention of it.

Offline billking

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2012, 10:37:19 PM »
Quote from: Ninja Handbook
Ninja Spy - Hey! Do you want to feel so ninja? Try NINJA SPY! It's a prestige class for people who need GRATUITOUS AMOUNTS OF NINJA! If you take this prestige class, you're going to feel UNCOMFORTABLY AWESOME! You want to wall run? Why not just jump over the buildings with your LEAP OF THE CLOUDS! Sneak attacks? You'll be good at them. It's a prestige class for ninjas. NINJA PRESTIGE! Sneak attack ninja sneak attack ninja sneak attack MORE NINJA THAN YOUR CHARACTER SHEET HAS ROOM FOR! Thanks to your +20 bonus to acrobatic skills, you'll be tumbling so fast that your DM will be like SLOOOOOW DOOOOWN. Ninja weapons ninja breathing ninja poisons ninja falling ninja dodging ninja hiding ninja water walking ninja FACES! You'll have so many FACES! 1000 FACES! Give this prestige class to your ninjas and they'll move as fast as ROKUGANISE! Your party will watch you run and think you're ROKUGANISE! You'll move so fast you'll Abundant Step and Dimension Door back to ROKUGAN! Don't gamble on your ninja's life. Take NINJA SPY! Ninjaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
This actually made me laugh until I cried. No joke. Additionally, since I've never actually read the Ninja Spy class, I'm gonna go find it now. The curiosity is intense.

Um, in terms of improvements, clearly marking everything Rokugan would be a help. After all, you clearly marked NinjaCA every time.

Offline SleepyShadow

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2012, 11:02:18 PM »
All of the Rokugan Ninja specific stuff is separate from the rest of the prestige classes, since they all come from Way of the Ninja. Ninja Spy is from Oriental Adventures, but that book has actually been known to be allowed in non-Rokugan games, unlike the rest of the Rokugan-specific books.

Offline Tr011

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2012, 08:53:44 AM »
Nice guide. Since we got some new house rules (we are allowed Tier 5 classes to be gestalt) I'm making a ninja atm and I used your guide a lot for this. It helped a lot. He gets 5d6 SA, 1d6+dex SS, every class feature of the Ninja Spy, 4d6 unarmed strike damage and a lot of feats. But I'm not sure about the race: Kenku (MM3) or Nezumi.

Anyways, I couldn't find the source of some of your feat suggestions. I.e. Lightning Stealth, Strike of the Wolf and Untouchable.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 09:04:59 AM by Tr011 »

Offline Amechra

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2012, 03:16:16 PM »
It's in the Rokugan Campaign Setting books; do you have any of those to look through?
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline Tr011

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 03:55:00 PM »
Thx a lot. A friend of mine got some of them, I'll ask him.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2012, 01:13:22 AM »
Dragon 342 and 351 have some ninja-specific feats that let them do a bit more with the Ki pool.

Edit: Spelling.  Took me long enough eh?  lol
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 01:59:40 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline SleepyShadow

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2012, 12:52:27 PM »
Dargon 342 and 351 have some ninja-specific feats that let them do a bit more with the Ki pool.

I've got those Dragon issues floating around somewhere, I'll take a look at the feats. Thanks.

Offline Tenticle

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 07:14:15 PM »
I'm playing a rokugan ninja in a rokugan campaign now, and having a lot of fun. Here are a few things I'd add:

Two levels in the Yakuza prestige class in OA gives defensive roll, improved evasion, and 8+ skills per level, and good saving throws. Although the OA book says that Yakuza don't exist in Ro, they're wrong, there are plenty of organized crime syndicates.

Strike of the wolf doesnt' work the way ou think it does, the dc is based on your number of sneak attack dice, not the damage you would have dealt. There is some poor editing in the feat description that confused me too.

There is a line of Ninjutsu based martial arts feats for the Scorpion clan in Way of the Open Hand. They're very useful, in a fight they can potentially prevent you from ever getting attacked. And they're NINJA POWERZ.

Also, most DMs should houserule the RO ninja to have trapfinding, since thet have Search and Disable Device, it would be nice if they can use them.

Other than that, great guide, I signed up just to comment on it
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 01:21:44 AM by Tenticle »

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2012, 02:10:02 AM »
I too signed up specifically to comment on this guide. You seem to be doing something right.

I don't have the full Rokugan setting book but for those who do: does "trapfinding" as an ability exist in Rokugan? As I understand it is a lower magic and less dungeon delving focused setting than traditional D&D so I could see the ability just not coming up.

Also regarding the Rokugan Ninja: Do you think mentioning their weapon proficiency list under class features would be a good idea? They have proficiency in several exotic weapons including the Kusari-Gama (DMG:145) which is essentially a light weapon spiked chain. For an AoO build or similar that could amount to an effective bonus feat.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: The Quintessential Ninja Handbook Discussion
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2012, 11:14:32 PM »
Since we're including Dragon Mag stuff:

Dragon Mag 357 has a feat called Elemental Stalker.  It's basically a CA Ninja/Shugenja multiclass feat.  I'd probably rate it red because CA ninjas are wis-based while the shugenja is cha-based, meaning definite MAD.  If the DM can be persuaded to let the shugenja use wisdom for its casting (unlikely) or the ninja to use charisma for its ki abilities and AC (more likely given the precedent of Ascetic Mage changing monk's wisdom stuff over to charisma), then I might rate it black if the build can work on the strengths of each class well enough.  For example, if the ninja is a water ninja from Dragon 354 and the shugenja can add Breath of the Jungle from SpC to its spell list, there's some fun poison specializing.

I suppose you'd like the exact rules of the feat though, right?

Not Wizards, Sorcerers, and Monks, who happen to be the only PHB classes to not get light armor proficiency. Silly ASF and unarmored class features.

Edit: Outside of Core, only Psions, Dragonfire Adepts, and Ninjas lack light armor proficiency,

Shugenjas too, while it's on my mind.


And since it's on my mind, I'm going to do a review of the ninja feats from Dragon 342 and 351.  That'll be edited in here shortly.

I will also be adding some multiclass feats that require a bit of work with the DM, but by RAW can be taken thanks to Sudden Strike counting as Sneak Attack for feat purposes.

Dragon Mag 342:

Benefits are mostly paraphrased.

Hidden Kingdom Jutsu:
Prereq: Ghost Strike (8th level)
Benefit:  Spend ki power to make an effect similar to hallucinatory terrain, but only affecting a 40 foot radius from you and lasting one level.  Can expend additional uses of ki power to add +2 rounds per ki use spent.

This might see use by confusing your opponents during a battle, but as with almost all illusions your DM will have to be open to working with it.  See if you can get circumstance bonuses to various skills or even total concealment from being within the illusory terrain that looks solid.


Jutsu Focus:
Prereqs: At least two ki feats.
Benefit: Add +2 to the save of your jutsu and if it lets you spend more ki on it to increase its effectiveness you may automatically treat it as if you had spent an extra use of ki.

If you’re investing heavily into the jutsu feats, this will probably be mandatory.

Rabbit Prince Jutsu:
Prereqs: Ghost step (invisibility) (2nd level)
Benefit:  Spend a use of ki to move under the effects of expeditious retreat for 1 round.  While under this effect your jump distance isn’t limited by your height.

If you need to move fast, this might work for you.  The part about jumps being limited by height is actually not in 3.5 rules, but if your DM is restricting jumps based on height like 3.0 did then this is a boon.


Ringing Fist Jutsu:
Prereqs: Ki dodge (6th)
Benefit: Expend a use of ki to apply the effects of a knock or targeted shatter spell on any successful unarmed attack you make against an object.

In short, you punch things and they go boom or open up, whichever you feel like happening.  Combos somewhat with the Ascetic Stalker feat.

River Eel Jutsu:
Prereqs: Ki dodge (6th)
Benefit: Spend a daily use of your ki to move as if under the effects of a freedom of movement spell for one round.

This one is actually pretty darn good.  Remember that jutsu are extraordinary unless otherwise noted, and an extraordinary freedom of movement is just what the ninja ordered for many occasions.


Shadow Puppet Jutsu:
Prereqs: Ki dodge (6th)
Benefit:  Spend a daily use to force an opponent within 30 feet to make a Will save.  If it fails, it is flat-footed until the beginning of its next turn.  This is a mind-affecting effect.

Useful to set up Sudden Strike damage.

Thousand Faces Jutsu
Prereqs: Ghost Step (invisible) (2nd)
Benefit:  Spend a ki use to be affected as if by Alter Self for one minute, but you can only change into a creature of your size and type, and you gain none of the movement or combat benefits of the new form.  Spend two ki uses to assume the form of a specific creature of your type for a minute.

Looks more like Disguise Self to me.  If you’re really into this sort of thing, the Changeling race is probably a much better fit.

Wind Oxen Jutsu:
Prereqs: Ghost strike (8th)
Benefit: Make a special bull rush attack on an adjacent target with a bonus equal to your Wisdom mod + ½ your ninja class level and can expend additional ki to add +4 per use spent.  There’s no need to actually touch the target, and this ability does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Bull rushes have plenty of fun uses, but the bonus on this leaves something to be desired.   By the time you get this, your bonus should be at least +7 (4 from ninja levels and +3 from Wis mod), which is the mod the fighter could have had from 1st level (16 Str and Imp Bull Rush).  Don’t expect to push around much unless you spend a lot of ki on it.



Dragon 351

Karmic Healing
Prereqs: Ki power (1st)
Benefit:  You can spend a daily use of ki to heal yourself a number of hit points equal to half your ninja level (minimum 1) times your Wis bonus, or spend a use to remove the fatigue condition or reduce exhausted to fatigued.

If you’re pumping wisdom, this might actually be pretty good once you have several ninja levels.  At 10th a single use could get you 25 HP.


Ki Smite
Prereqs: Ki power, Sudden Strike +2d6 (3rd)
Benefit:  Spend a ki use to add your Wis mod to your next melee attack roll and your ninja level plus your current ki pool (not including the one you just spent to get the smite) to damage.

Another good one if you’re pumping Wisdom and ki uses.  Note that it doesn’t say the damage only applies to hit point damage, but it’s safe to say the designers intended it to only work on weapon damage and not ability damage for instance.  Abuse at your own risk.

Skill Attunement
Prereqs: Wis 13, ki power (ghost strike) (8th)
Benefit:  You can spend a daily use of ki to grant yourself a bonus on all skill checks equal to your Wisdom bonus for a number of rounds equal to 1/5th your ninja level (rounded down, minimum 1).

Very useful when you want that extra oomph to your skills.

Wolf’s Bite
Prereqs: Ki power (1st)
Benefit:  You can spend one daily use of ki to gain access to Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, and Improved Trip for 1 round.

This allows you to be more versatile as needed and without having to spend the prerequisite feats.  Not bad.


General feats:

Intuitive Trapsmith
Prereq: Ki power
Benefit: Add your Wisdom bonus instead of your Intelligence bonus on all Search and Disable Device checks.  These effects are always active.

Chances are your Wis is higher than your Int.  This will allow you to eke out a bit more from those skills and help you function better as a trap handler, though the ninja really isn’t the best at that role.

One With Earth and Water
Prereq: Ki power (1st)
Benefit:  Add your Wisdom bonus on all climb and swim checks instead of your strength bonus.  These effects are always active.

Bit of a shame it doesn’t apply to jump checks too, but if you see yourself using these skills regularly then they help make you more SAD.  If you want to totally ignore strength-based skills, the feat Agile Athlete makes your climb and jump checks key off dex instead.

Zen Fortitude
Prereqs: Ki power (1st)
Benefit: Add your Wisdom bonus (instead of your Constitution bonus) on Fortitude saves.  This effect is always active.

Another feat to make you more SAD.  Just make sure not to skimp on Con because more hit points tend to be quite helpful.


Here are some multiclass feats the CA ninja technically qualifies for, and the Rokugan ninja definitely qualifies for but technically doesn’t gain the benefit.


Daring Outlaw:
Prereqs: Grace +1, Sneak Attack +2d6
Benefit: Stack swashbuckler and rogue levels to determine SA damage, Grace progression, and Dodge progression.

If your DM allows you to progress the class that gave you Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike with this, then it’s probably worthwhile.  The later levels in both CA and Rokugan ninja aren’t really worth much.  For the price of a feat, you get another feat you’d probably have taken anyway (Weapon Finesse), a bonus on reflex saves that will probably be overwritten by buffs since it’s a competence bonus, and a bonus to AC that is better than dodge except it doesn’t count as the feat for prerequisites like the Rokugan nina’s Ninja Dodge does.  Taking a third level in swashbuckler gets you Insightful Strike which will give you some extra damage but likely not much if you’re not focusing on Int.

Ascetic Rogue:
Prereqs: Improved Unarmed Strike, sneak attack
Benefit: Add 2 to the DC of your Stunning Fist attempt if it’s also a sneak attack delivered with an unarmed strike.  Stack monk and rogue levels to determine your unarmed strike damage.

The unarmed strike progression is helpful.  The Stunning Fist stuff may or may not be since the feat is fairly weak on its own without specializing.  I wouldn’t recommend this feat unless you really know what you’re doing.


Between all those feats, I'd be inclined to promote the CA ninja to Tier 4 due to the increased versatility and power.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 03:23:37 PM by Jackinthegreen »