Author Topic: Noob Hanbook Discussion  (Read 7400 times)

Offline Captnq

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Noob Hanbook Discussion
« on: March 30, 2013, 10:00:30 PM »
This is a handbook on things to help noobs.

Not how to build the ultimate gish, or why Sword and Board sucks.

If it's something a noob should avoid, but a more advanced player would be good with, post your comments here and I will try and add them to the handbook.

If it's something so stupid as to need to be flat out avoided, post your comments here.

Everything else is most likely splitting hairs and best left for other handbooks.
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Offline Solo

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2013, 11:47:49 PM »
Quote
If I had access to automatic weapons, Columbine would have happened a decade earlier.
1. Does not portray the hobby in a good light.
2. Is factually incorrect; semi-automatic weapons and shotguns were used in Columbine.

Another major flaw in your handbook is that you do not have a link to my handbook for sorcerers.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 11:55:39 PM by Solo »
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2013, 12:16:56 AM »
What the fuck, man? You make it sound like you hate the game and want everyone else who plays RPGs to be as miserable as you!

Offline Demelain

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2013, 11:51:21 AM »
Not gonna lie, I laughed every time you typed eRPGs. "Electronic" wasn't the first 'e' word that came to mind.

Offline Captnq

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2013, 02:23:20 PM »
Quote
If I had access to automatic weapons, Columbine would have happened a decade earlier.
1. Does not portray the hobby in a good light.
2. Is factually incorrect; semi-automatic weapons and shotguns were used in Columbine.

Another major flaw in your handbook is that you do not have a link to my handbook for sorcerers.


1. The hobby isn't well loved in popular media. I will rewrite it to be more diplomatic, but lets be honest here:

A) I was declared a satanist by my entire community for playing the game.
B) I was either shunned or people tried to "save" me or beat the ever living shit out of me. HS grades 7th through 11th were pure hell. I was never popular to begin with, but I got beat up once a week for years. 12th wasn't that bad because all the people who tortured me were a higher grade and left.
C) As revenge for reporting these events to the teachers, someone killed my cat. Or claimed to. The cat definately disappeared and they made comments implying they were responcible. I have no proof.

Even if this was 20 years ago, it is a sign of the crap that can happen in small towns with small minds, even today. I challenge ANYONE to point out any program on a major network that protrays Roleplayers in a positive light.

Any of you seen The movie: Rolemodels? I wanted to put the TV through the window.

I have yet to see any TV show/movie protray someone who plays Dungeon and Dragons as normal. They have glasses, are socially inept, laugh funny, have poor hygene, and are all universally considered WIERD.

Now, I am open to arguements that I am wrong. Please, provide me with examples where D&D is socially accepted and gamers are protrayed in a positive light.

Even the Uber-Geek show The Big Bang Theory protrays us as all as Brilliant, but socially-fucked. The four main characters are all really smart. So smart they can't operate normally in polite society. I wouldn't be socially fucked if I didn't have my hand stomped so hard I needed stitches. I wouldn't be fucked if the teachers did not tell my bullies what I reported to them.

Confidental my ass.

The other guy in my school, Clark? He ACTUALLY WENT INSANE from what they did to him. I mean, HE WAS COMMITED TO AN INSANE ASYLUM from all the bullying.

Now, personally, I love the game, but are you telling me that people just starting out should not be told this happened? I'm not trying to recruit people. I'm explaining many of the problems with the game. It isn't seen in a positive light.

I remember hanging out with the creator of In Nomine when some girl cam wandering through the hall. We were at a con and some straight came walking through the vendor section. She looked at all the display posters and started off, "This is a game about God? would that be.... MY GOD???" Where upon I shot off my mouth, "No. It's HIS God. See that little 'TM'? It's trademarked."

Holy crap that was a shit storm.

If I'm wrong, please explain how. But I would point out at least three different people in the threads about Player Traps pointed out the same thing, that playing the game itself is a trap and tends to lead to hours of wasted time and neglect of more important things.

I didn't see anyone arguing they were wrong.

2. I was implying what I needed, not what they needed. I got better, obviously, but after they killed my cat, That was a low point in my life.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2013, 05:12:48 PM »
This isn't a handbook at all, this is just ranting about how horribly you think everyone is going to be treated.

1) People that are already on this board are at a minimum already interested in playing RPGs.

2) We want the RPG community to grow, not to scare people off.

3) Just because you went through shit doesn't mean everyone will.  I went to high school in small town Texas and the worst that happened is the D&D club I started through the school got shut down for being a D&D club and that was ten years ago.  I don't see how your "handbook" is actually going to help anyone in any positive manner.

Offline Endarire

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2013, 05:52:07 PM »
What about Geek and Sundry or PAX D&D 2012 for a positive portrayal of roleplayers?

Offline Pluto

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2013, 09:36:47 PM »
My experience could not vary further from those in the guide.

The Columbine thing makes me feel creepy by association to the hobby.

I hope this doesn't discourage players from gaming.


Offline Solo

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2013, 01:08:54 AM »
A handbook should not be about your personal problems. If your aim is to create a useful repository of information for new players, it is counterproductive. I strongly recommend that you rewrite your handbook.
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2013, 10:33:00 AM »
I'll have to chime in as well with "my experience was not your experience."

As far as positive portrayals of people who play D&D: this sort of article is pretty common.

On the actual handbook: my impression of what you've got so far is that it's quite dense and written at a level where you have to understand char op jargon to benefit from reading it (Caelic's commandments stand out but the whole thing leans in that direction.) That's not really where you want to be in a beginner's handbook.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2013, 11:07:39 AM »
Guys...

Look at todays date.


EDIT: Whoops. 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 11:20:05 AM by 123456789blaaa »
Please, call me Count :).

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2013, 11:16:12 AM »
What does that have to do with anything? The handbook was posted 10 days ago.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2013, 11:19:38 AM »
What does that have to do with anything? The handbook was posted 10 days ago.

Oops, you're right  :blush. Ignore me.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2013, 11:33:01 AM »
I'm glad to see that a lot of the negativity has been trimmed out.  After skimming through it, things look good.  I didn't notice any "traps" that I disagree with and off the top of my head can't think of anything to add.

Offline Captnq

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2013, 02:04:09 PM »
The request was a guide for new players to learn D&D.
I did a file search on the subject, not just that one thread, not just minmax but every board google and other search engines had to offer.

Here.
Traps a beginner should be wary of.  D&D.  Your best bet is to get a job and leave this on the bookshelf.  Remember that the best thing to do is work, save, invest, and ignore flash in the pan things like social activities.  They will not advance your career in the slightest.  Best thing is to get at least a doctorate and work 12+ hours a day.  You will thank me when you retire young and with money.  Thank you/

He's not the only one with this bit of advice. It comes up again and again, different reasons, different goals, but it keeps coming up.

I search the data bases, collate the data, seperate into various fields, eliminate redundancies, then rewrite and consolidate the information. When personal experiences are used, I remove those and replace with similar ones that I've had.

If you don't like what some people have to offer, what some people advise, I am sorry. As I've said, I will rewrite it to be more diplomatic. But I cannot discount the information itself. It has to go in because it IS advice to someone starting out. Unless you can state that it's wrong and prove how, the best I can offer is to allow you to write a counter argument.

In fact, I would encourage this.

You all seem to think I have some sort of emotional investment in all of this. As for my personal examples, these were horrible events, but they mean nothing to me. I have no emotional attachment to them one way or the other. If it did mean something, I would not include it. I got over the events years ago. I'm not sharing to bear my soul, but to provide factual context. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm so blunt about it that it comes across as negative. To me, mentioning getting my head smashed into a locker door until I passed out in gym class is just as important to me as the fact that I like day old bagels from Bruggers. Which is to say, not at all. It's just to prove a point.

I could just as easily include other people's personal experiances, since they were posted, but I think that's rude. If they wish to share their personal experiances as examples, I would wait until they made a request to do so and then include it in it's own entry. However, The examples I did find were... graphic. I did my level best to capture the intent of the gathered data without being too... intense.

So either you are too sensitive, or I am too insensitive. I will err on the side of caution and rewrite the offending section. Chances are It's me. I simply do not see what you are all upset about. Facts are facts, in my opinion. It wouldn't be the first time. Please do me a favor and let me know if I have not gone far enough.

As for recruiting new players, that is not the purpose of this. This is to teach new players basic concepts and to avoid mistakes. However, since it seems to be important to some of you, I shall include something positive about RPG gamers. Feel free to offer your suggestions.

And just so we are clear, I will not alter any offered entry if it is deemed relivent to the stated purpose. I make no claim to understand the wisdom of every gamer on the planet, but I can do data searches like nobody's buisness. I stand by gathered data and offer that if there seems to be a negative tone to my handbook, maybe I have found few posts on this topic that were positive.

In fact, trap number 13 warns new players not to get in arguments about Melee Styles for just that reason. For some reason, the advice on the topic seems especially... aggressive. I don't know why, but melee advice just... I dunno how anyone can get so emotionally invested in anything, to be honest.




-----Four Hours Later-------


I waited a bit before posting this. I wanted to get some advice and have recieved it. I will not change the original post, but I will add to it.

I'm looking up at my whiteboard and looking at the project parameters and seeing the list of questions and one stands out, "Y N Else?"

That's shorthand for, "Why hasn't anyone else done this before?"

I got a gift for sifting through data, but my gift does not involve judging that data. It's gotten me in trouble before. I've solved problems that should not have been solved. Those are painful memories of regret. I have shared them elsewhere and have no desire to do so again. Suffice to say, I am a poor judge of the consequences of my actions.

This is a subjective handbook, not an objective one. The data sorting is correct, but I am uncertain if I should be the one organizing this data set. If you ask for a handbook on eating babies, I can make you one and it will mean as much to me as this handbook, or any handbook. The handbook is an answer to a question to the best of my ability. It's what I do.

I ask if anyone else wishes to do this handbook, because I simply don't see things the same way as everyone else. I provide solutions to problems, I don't provide solutions to the problems caused by those solutions.

Besides, it's only been what? 17 man-hours? Pfft. I waste more time playing Borderlands 2.

If nobody wants the task, I am thinking of deleting the original handbook. You see, I think I now know why I couldn't find anyone else's beginner's handbook that was worth using as a template.

I will hold off on that deletion at this time until I receive feedback from the original individual who made the request.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2013, 02:38:20 PM »
I think I'll chime in on the sentiments about whether to include those personal experiences of yours, and why it doesn't fit.

Quote
Quote
Hey, I'd like to play a Bard 4/Cleric 4. Can anyone help me optimize this?
Don't, play X, Y, or Z instead.

Quote
Quote
Hey, I'm thinking about starting a game of D&D with some people I know, but they told me that there is a huge learning curve to this game. Can someone help me figure this all out?
Don't play this game, doing so has ruined peoples lives. It could ruin yours.

Not only is that a case of ignoring the parameters of the request, it is also conceited. It take upon yourself the other persons burden, making it so that you assume they can't make the choice of whether to play or not for themselves. If a person is thinking of playing 3.5 at this point, chances are way beyond good that they know people who do play already, and they are doing it with them. Also, the whole "satanism" thing is really freaking rare anymore. We live in a day and age now wherein a famous action movie star has youtube videos with him playing D&D (Vin Diesel). The stigma is still there, and does get portrayed, but it's no where near what it was back then.

And you bring up how it is portrayed, like the person is somehow unaware. Let them make this decision.

As you point out though, all you are doing is collating the data. But that bit of data is just like all of the instances of posters ignoring the parameters of the request: it isn't data that is relevant; it's just junk information. I liken it to the excess information in a math word problem.

I'm NOT saying "Take it all out" however. You, at least, seem to feel it is an important part of giving the reader the proper information in order to make their decision an informed one. I do, however, think that it is given way to prominent of a showcase in the handbook. You open the handbook with quite the diatribe of "don't play this", which IMO would cause people to stop reading and go elsewhere for the advice that they were given the impression that you were not offering.



Anywho... Traps 11 and 12 are redundant. Trap 12 is literally just a copy & paste of Trap 11 with an extra paragraph.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2013, 02:50:13 PM »
My problem with things like "Don't play D&D because ....." is that I find it to be offensive.  And not just offensive in the way that telling people that playing D&D is a waste of time is insulting to those that do decide to spend their time playing.

I find it to be offensive because you (or me, or ariasderros, or whoever because I mean you in general) have no idea what the person reading the handbook knows, have no idea why they're interested in learning/playing D&D, and have no right to start making value based life decisions for them just because they want to play a game.

If you feel that section should be there, you can condense it to a paragraph or two that sums up the fact that some people believe that it's a waste of time/ will ruin your life/ whatever.  However, given the amount of activity on this board I think it's evident that many people don't believe that.  We just don't post counter-arguments on the board because why would I tell someone that the game that we both play is awesome because x, y, z?  We both play it so the other person already thinks it is awesome.

Offline Brassthorn

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2013, 04:21:53 PM »
"Our fun involves slaughtering hoards of evil goblins ..." and "One cannot slaughter a hoard of anything these days."

A hoard is what a dragon guards.

A horde comes screaming out of the hills to slaughter the villagers.

(I find myself now wanting to have a adventure where a confused young dragon begins hoarding goblins, and the PCs are hired by his parents to gently straighten him out...)
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Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2013, 04:54:13 PM »
If you don't like what some people have to offer, what some people advise, I am sorry. As I've said, I will rewrite it to be more diplomatic. But I cannot discount the information itself. It has to go in because it IS advice to someone starting out. Unless you can state that it's wrong and prove how, the best I can offer is to allow you to write a counter argument.

The counter argument is that this is a beginner's guide to D&D, not a beginner's guide to hobbies or a beginner's guide to life.

Whether or not to play D&D is not a relevant subject in a guide to D&D because answering that question in the negative invalidates the rest of the guide.

Also, that passage you quoted is horrible advice. Ignoring all pursuits besides work is an excellent way to get an ulcer/ wind up dead of a heart attack at 40. Also, social activities absolutely can advance a career (networking is a thing), not everyone is capable of earning a doctorate, not all doctorates translate into a lucrative career, student loans are a racket and getting worse and a few other things. If you're taking that passage as genuine advice you should include nothing resembling it in your handbook because it's awful.

Offline Tonymitsu

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Re: Noob Hanbook Discussion
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2013, 09:29:52 PM »
Frankly, while I don't disagree at all with anything that is said in the "Why You Shouldn't Play Roleplaying Games" heading, I do find it to be as out of place with the context of the Handbook as a lot of the other beginner advice.

I was under the assumption that a Beginner's Guide to Optimizing for these forums would be written not to teach someone how to play D&D, but to teach them how to play it mechanically well.

Technical Writing 101 says that we have to decide what the expertise level of our readers is when we begin writing.  The handbook I was seeing in my brain included a foreword along the lines of:

"This guide assumes you know how to play a table-top D&D game.  You know how to create a character, how to interpret tables in the Player's Handbook, how combat works (actions, movement, attacks of opportunity), and how to make skill checks when the DM calls for it.  The purpose of this guide is to go over the benefits and detriments of all the various choices you can make from a purely objective mechanical standpoint.  You can rebuild it.  You have the technology.  You can make it better, stronger, and faster..."

Having a handbook to teach people how to play D&D isn't a bad idea.  But it should probably be an entirely separate endeavor from teaching them how to make better choices in character building.
A simple litmus test to determine what is beginner gameplay vs beginner optimizing?  Any term you feel is appropriate to describe something that is defined in the PHB is gameplay and should probably not have to be mentioned.  Anything that isn't defined in the PHB is probably min/max related and is suitable for inclusion.


On a side note, concepts I thought about that might warrant inclusion is an overview of Practical Optimization vs Theoretical Optimization, and in that a quick mention of RAW vs RAI.  Also a mention of the party roles from treantmonk's Wizard guide (BSF, Glass Cannon, God, Waste of Space).

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