Author Topic: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.  (Read 21239 times)

Offline Amechra

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Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« on: July 20, 2015, 02:07:06 PM »
I recently found a compilation of all of the Non-Weapon Proficiencies from 2e, and sweet baby Jesus.

High level Rogues could run on water, instinctively detect ambushes, could adapt to any sort of combat situation on the fly, could fly from shadow to shadow (with a fly speed and maneuverability and everything), and kill people automatically using the environment.

High level Fighters could do the whole "adapt to combat situations by instinct" thing, were hella brave, were loved by everyone due to how sexy their toned pecs were (they could cause hero worship by accident), could kill someone with one strike, could delay negative effects for at least 30 seconds (the same ability lets you nap off being magically aged), and can make a weapon special because it is theirs.

Sure there were overlaps between what a Fighter could do and what, say, a Priest could do, but still. Just getting bonus feats and not having the courtesy to write up SEXY PECS as a Fighter feat is a heinous crime.
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Offline Chemus

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2015, 02:57:19 PM »
Uh, flying and sexiness... was this skills and powers stuff, specifically from Planescape? I actually never got into that part very much.

 What I recall of 2e is the kits (PrCs that modified base classes) and rules from the PHB, race books (Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes & Halflings, Humanoids (PHB races were called demi-humans)), and the class books (Priest, Druid, Wizard, Rogue Thief, Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, [Ninja], ...uhh goes to shelf... remembers Necromancers...Monks) and Arms and Equipment Guide, Vikings/Celts Campaign Sourcebooks, plus the FR Campaign Setting.

The S&P bits likely had what you're lookin at... they added lots and lots of options for all classes. You bought stuff of a list for character points...IIRC. I liked the concept, but I didn't get those books, and didn't play that at all.
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2015, 03:15:15 PM »
It looks like these were in DM's Option - High Level Campaigns.

Still, Kits were pretty damn nice too - it's one of the reasons that I'm sad about the way that WotC dropped the ball with ACFs.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2015, 04:59:20 PM »
Outside of optional rules, mundane classes had it even worse in 2E.  At least that's my recollection.  No feats -- it's all just coming from magic items.  Although there were some fewer options for spellcasters, too.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2015, 06:16:26 PM »
Outside of optional rules, mundane classes had it even worse in 2E.  At least that's my recollection.  No feats -- it's all just coming from magic items.  Although there were some fewer options for spellcasters, too.

At least there were those optional rules, though.
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Offline Chemus

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2015, 06:19:56 PM »
Fighter got the highest number of attacks, and the best THAC0. He had the smallest penalty for nonproficiency w/ weapons, and got the most Wp Proficiencies. He (along with Pally, n Ranger) got to use a higher Con bonus than 2 (other classes were capped at +2/HD, and the dice stopped rolling at 9-10th level). He actually had a skill list, and the fighter kits (optional rules) had some nice things, IIRC, though many were more RP considerations, than mechanical.

Thieves, priests and bards leveled fast, something like 2 or maybe even 3 levels above the others for the rogues, and about 1-2 for the cleric. Druid was funky.

Cleric n druid capped at 7th level spells, and had weapon and armor restrictions.

Wizards got a straight power-up in 3e, at least outside Skills&Powers. In default 2e, wizards got no (0) bonus spells, and had a limit by Int on spells per spell level (unless you got a 19 int), and only Gnome Illusionists (only) valuable-ish, and the gray elves and drow got an int bump, but took a 15 or 20% exp penalty, respectively. Wishing an 18 to a 19 was nigh impossible. The book to gain was ... I forget if just one worked.

Casting in combat took time; most every spell took its level in initiative segments to get off, and anyone with a lower init could wait to try to hit the caster. If the caster took damage, the spell fizzled.

Saves for spells didn't scale up, but down; at 1st level, you'd affect critters and enemies fully w/ spells, but at high levels, most saves failed on a 1-6/20. A half-elf fighter/cleric/mage had something like a 2 or 4 for its save number. If you rolled that number or higher, you succeeded on your save.

Magic was uncertain, and there was no 'concentration' skill or casting defensively. Mundanes had fewer headaches, at least, and sometimes actually shone.
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2015, 06:55:43 PM »
I could've sworn there was a thread just like this a few years ago.  And the really badass stuff mundanes got was based on having super high stats, not in-class things.  Like, abnormally high Con giving you fast healing.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2015, 07:12:23 PM »
So, it's been like what 15-20 years since I've played AD&D.  But, a lot of this is based on rose-colored glasses.  For example: 

Casting in combat took time; most every spell took its level in initiative segments to get off, and anyone with a lower init could wait to try to hit the caster. If the caster took damage, the spell fizzled.
...

Magic was uncertain, and there was no 'concentration' skill or casting defensively. Mundanes had fewer headaches, at least, and sometimes actually shone.
Casting time/speed factor were optional rules.  I also seem to remember my Blade Kit Bard being comically better at stabbing things than Fighters were.  There were also things like a 7th level spell (iirc) that made you immune to hit point damage for like ... ever, I think.

Moreover, many of the most powerful spellcasting options are legacy ones, e.g., Contact Other Plane, Polymorph, Solid Fog.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the "it was a bit better for them in AD&D as opposed to 3E" assessment.  I don't know how I'd go about making that assessment in the first place.  Just that if you wanted to play a powerful, versatile character in AD&D, you played a spellcaster.  It wasn't sunshine and roses for them under the base rules.  Caster Supremacy is an old, old thing.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2015, 07:43:42 PM »
I could've sworn there was a thread just like this a few years ago.  And the really badass stuff mundanes got was based on having super high stats, not in-class things.  Like, abnormally high Con giving you fast healing.

Yep, stats did that; 20 con healed 1 hp/hr, IIRC. Might have been /6hrs. Healing was sloe in 2e; weeks to heal naturally. Ring of regeneration healed 1 hp/turn for the base model.

@Unbeliever: Yep, casters still owned, and spells did everything. There was a spell for high level casters to evolve their own race, so players could design the world (or DMs could have a reason that there were winged monkeys in the first place), so a damage immunity spell was likely. I'd expect it came from the Encyclopediae Magica (4 spellbook-looking volumes that had hundreds of spells.

You're right that a lot of the rules (nonproficiency w/ weapons, secondary skills, nonweapon proficiencies, racial level limits, etc) were optional; like w/ 5e the DM 'made the rules,' not the other way 'round.

But the disparity between mundanes and casters, partially due to clunkier rules, was a bit less. Differing leveling rates, gestalt-style multiclassing and, as you say, rose colored glasses made for some fun times.
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Offline Samwise

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2015, 09:51:06 PM »
There were a lot of things slowing casters down in AD&D.

In addition to bonus spells being much less for clerics and non-existent for wizards, the "4-hour adventure day" was not merely non-existent, but not even considered. 10 fights before resting was considered around average for tournaments, more when turned into a non-tournament module. Until you hit "name" (10th) level you were lucky to dominate more than 1 combat per session with raw magic.

Even without casting time, you still had to declare actions before rolling initiative, and you lost the spell if you took any damage. If the battlefield changed, your spell could be completely wasted even if you didn't get smacked.

Blasting was effective because of the cap on HD, but that same cap also meant wizards could and did go down FAST if a melee type got anywhere close. Especially with weapon specialization and other expansions, a single, solid hit could take a high level wizard down.

Spell selection kept clerics and druids from being overpowering, and wild shape wasn't even as strong as the revised d20 version. Druids also got the monk and assassin hose over of having to duel to reach their highest levels.

Naturally mages (8th level spells) and archmages (9th level spells) still ruled, but the biggest "balance" on them was the massive attrition of apprentices. Barring Monty Haul cheese, you would probably go through 5 wizards for every fighter to survive past "introductory" adventures.

As for "rose colored glasses", reread the description of vision in The Vault of the Drow and see if you can make your Spot check for it.

Offline Keldar

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2015, 10:28:39 AM »
I could've sworn there was a thread just like this a few years ago.  And the really badass stuff mundanes got was based on having super high stats, not in-class things.  Like, abnormally high Con giving you fast healing.
It was a couple months ago at most.

A whole host of things made mundanes better off in 2E than in later editions, mostly crude niche protections.  But being limited to physics when surrounded by reality warpers still left them pretty poor off.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2015, 10:06:16 PM »
higher Con bonus than 2 (other classes were capped at +2/HD
a skill list

Thieves, priests and bards leveled fast

capped [] level spells

no (0) bonus spells
limit [] on spells per spell level

Casting in combat took time

If the caster took damage, the spell fizzled.

Saves for spells didn't scale
Just keeping a list to make sure I've got all the 3.5 balance points necessary. We've got: chassis & skill boosts for mundanes, squished ECL manipulation/progressions, no 9th level spells, Fewer base spells and bonus spells, spell duration increases, no defensive casting (at the very least), and no bonus to DC based off spell level. :)

10 fights before resting was considered around average [,]or more

Even without casting time, you still had to declare actions before rolling initiative
If the battlefield changed, your spell could be completely wasted even if you didn't get smacked.

a single, solid hit could take a high level wizard down.

Spell selection kept [caster]s from being overpowering
wild shape wasn't even as strong
It's always good to have you in these discussions, Samwise. So we also have: Forced fights/resting issues, chassis nerfs to casters, split spell lists & wildshape et al nerfs. Roger.

But holy cow does the "called" spells pre-initiative and no-takebacksies change everything. How far did this go? Could a monster just move to a new square to defeat targeting? Did mundanes have to obey that rule too? Just WOW

Offline Chemus

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2015, 02:25:47 AM »
Yes, Init was supposed to be for everyone; Baddies were supposed to have actions decided by DM prior to init rolls, and all PC's select their actions (movement, then attacks). IIRC, movement segment then attack segment, but it's been ~16y since I played 2e. (Except a 1-off session ca. 10y ago)
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Offline Samwise

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2015, 01:00:41 PM »
It's always good to have you in these discussions, Samwise. So we also have: Forced fights/resting issues, chassis nerfs to casters, split spell lists & wildshape et al nerfs. Roger.

But holy cow does the "called" spells pre-initiative and no-takebacksies change everything. How far did this go? Could a monster just move to a new square to defeat targeting? Did mundanes have to obey that rule too? Just WOW

The best I can do is quote extended passages.
PHB
"A party of 5 characters - a magic-user, a cleric, a thief, a human fighter,
and a dwarf fighter surprise an illusionist with 20 arcs. The opponents are
30' distant, and the magic-user immediately begins casting a sleep spell.
The cleric also prepares to cast a spell, silence, 15'radius. Meanwhile, the
thief darts to the rear of the party to attempt to hide in the shadows and
attack from behind when opportunity presents itself; the human fighter
nocks an arrow and shoots it at the illusionist; and the dwarf hurls an axe.
The surprise segment is over, and initiative is determined. The
illusionist/orcs win initiative, and while the former begins a spell of his
own, the latter rush to attack, hurling spears as they come. A spear hits the
magic-user, so the sleep spell is spoiled. The orcs are attacked by the
fighters, the cleric casts his spell upon the illusionist, and the magical
silence both spoils his prismatic spray spell and enhances the chances for
the thief's attack, for he is successfully slinking and sliding around in the
shadows. Thus, after surprise and 1 melee round, the party has inflicted 2
hits upon the illusionist, spoiled his spell attack, and felled one orc and
wounded another. They have taken 3 spear hits and had one of their spell
attacks ruined."

We can see:
The party has surprise.
A 1st level spell with a casting time of 1 segment is NOT completed during the surprise segment.
The minimum 14th level illusionist elects to use his 7th level spell in response.
That gets ruined by the 2nd level spell. (Yes, that trick is THAT old.  :D)

DMG
(This section is extensive, so I'll just go with some highlights.)
The Set Up:
"Spell-casters will always insist that they are able to use their powers during
combat melee. The DM must adjudicate the success of such use."

The Complication:
"Thus, casting a spell requires that a figure be relatively motionless and concentrating on the effort during the entire course of uninterrupted casting. For example, a magic-user casting a fireball must be in sight of the intended area of effect during the course of the spell (although an associate could be there to open a door intervening between caster and target area at an appropriate time - provided the timing was correct, of course). The caster cannot begin a spell, interrupt it just prior to completion, run to a different area, and then complete the spell; interruption instantly cancels it. Unless a spell has no somatic components, the caster cannot be crouching, let alone prone, during casting."

The Gimmick:
"It can thus be understood that spell casting during a melee can be a tricky
business, for a mere shove at any time can spoil the dweomer!"

The Rules:
"1. Spell casters must note what spell they intend to cast at the beginning
of each round prior to any knowledge of which side has initiative."

"3. Intelligent monsters able to recognize the danger of spells will direct
attacks against spell casters if not engaged by other opponents so as to
be prevented from so doing."

The Kicker:
"Because spell casting will be so difficult, most magic-users and clerics will
opt to use magical devices whenever possible in melee, if they are wise."

Now it does not absolutely say "no casting in combat", but it is pretty clear that RAI is RAW, "don't let your players cast in combat!"
To some extent precise targets were a tad fungible - you could probably shift your sleep spell 10' over, or go for the wizard instead of the cleric with your magic missile, but if you decided two orcs weren't worth a fireball then too bad, you already started casting it, fry something or lose it. (Oh, and have I mentioned physics and fireball blowback? MUOHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!)
Oh, and don't forget facing. Read the above and consider whether turning completely around to scorch the flanking reinforcements "ruins" a spell.

And to a certain extent, yes, mundanes could be trapped by their declared actions. "I attack this guy here" means attacking in that particular square, not running 30' and attacking someone completely different on the other side of a door, or suddenly deciding that using a potion of extra-healing was more relevant. Attacking Orc 2 instead of Orc 1 if they had been standing next to each other was something I allowed, and I suspect most DMs allowed, but that was about it.

Remember, D&D grew out of miniatures wargaming and originally had 1 minute turns.
You wrote down your orders, handed them to the referee, and he resolved your "simultaneous" actions as best as possible. If a unit broke and fled, then your artillery barrage hit an empty field, and that's all there was to it.
That changed a bit with the move to 6 second rounds (previously segments) in 2nd ed, and only completely altered with individual phases rather than team initiative in d20.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2015, 02:13:17 PM »
Minor nitpick: unless samwise is talking Skills & Powers (Which I'm still fairly unfamiliar with), 2nd ed still had 1 minute rounds, and 10 minute turns.
Quote from: 2e PHB Aug '93 printing, p.91: The Combat Round
...A round is approximately one minute long. Ten combat rounds equal a turn (or, put another way, a turn equals 10 minutes of game time).

Otherwise, he's got the rules pretty well spelled out, to my eye.
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Offline Keldar

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2015, 04:19:57 PM »
Yarp.  Initiative was a harsh mistress.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2015, 12:34:58 PM »
So I suppose the question becomes, how do we alter 3.5 initiative to hose casters without nerfing mundanes? Let all spells be 'called shots' with no takes-backsies pre-initiative, but let attack targeting be flexible?

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2015, 03:06:26 PM »
So I suppose the question becomes, how do we alter 3.5 initiative to hose casters without nerfing mundanes? Let make all spells 'called shots' with no takes-backsies pre-initiative, but let attack targeting be flexible?
This seems hard to implement and, frankly, unfun.  There are very few "declare first, then roll for Initiative" systems that actually work in practice. 

If you want to bring back some more old-school flavor, make it easier to disrupt spellcasting.  Having spells go off at the end of the round or making it part of an attack routine to ready an attack to wreck it seem like reasonable options.

That being said, I don't think any of this speaks to the real issues.  You need rich combat options, whether through ToB or some other means. 

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2015, 04:50:48 PM »
I always liked the rule about casters taking a penalty equal to the level of the spell they were casting to initiative (especially because you could mess up someone's uber spell by tagging them with a Magic Missile :D ). I also liked the fact that it was very difficult/impossible to cast in the middle of melee combat. I wouldn't mind playing game(s) where both of those come back in some form. PF has made concentration checks more difficult, but still not impossible.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 04:52:21 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Wow, Mundane classes were BADASS in 2e.
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2015, 06:49:03 PM »
Would there be some sort of PrC or feat option available to gishes?  Would in-combat healing be even weaker now than it already is? 

I have mixed feelings about it.  I'd worry that it encourages exactly the kind of spellcaster play I like least, basically scry and die and its variations.