Author Topic: Ways to become a devil?  (Read 15727 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 11:04:32 PM »
race is one of those "you know what it means!" things, a la RAI

I have the way to do this (since devil is spelled out) for my record-holding uber charger. All you have to do is be what any devil is: a (lawful) (evil) outsider native to the nine hells. One of these nights I'll have the energy to repost them builds...

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 01:45:32 PM »
race is one of those "you know what it means!" things, a la RAI

I have the way to do this (since devil is spelled out) for my record-holding uber charger. All you have to do is be what any devil is: a (lawful) (evil) outsider native to the nine hells. One of these nights I'll have the energy to repost them builds...

Can you give a source and page number for the definition of devil? I've been looking through my books and can't find one like that.
Please, call me Count :).

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 03:24:40 PM »
race is one of those "you know what it means!" things, a la RAI

I have the way to do this (since devil is spelled out) for my record-holding uber charger. All you have to do is be what any devil is: a (lawful) (evil) outsider native to the nine hells. One of these nights I'll have the energy to repost them builds...

Can you give a source and page number for the definition of devil? I've been looking through my books and can't find one like that.

I dont think there is one... actually it may be the opposite as the fiendish codex II gives a lot of background on devils. I am sure there was a line in there somewhere about all devils (other than Erinyes) advancing from one form to another as a part of their development cycle.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2013, 05:37:43 PM »
I bet one (idk the name) of the SS Rituals
would get you the Baatezu subtype. 

So that Tiefling + this ritual ... maybe.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2013, 03:19:48 PM »
race is one of those "you know what it means!" things, a la RAI

I have the way to do this (since devil is spelled out) for my record-holding uber charger. All you have to do is be what any devil is: a (lawful) (evil) outsider native to the nine hells. One of these nights I'll have the energy to repost them builds...

I searched for your ubercharger. You say:

Quote
Mark of Minauros (drop the devil requirement from the feat which is explicitly allowed in the text, the rest is fluff)

So... :huh.

I bet one (idk the name) of the SS Rituals
would get you the Baatezu subtype. 

So that Tiefling + this ritual ... maybe.

I'll look into it.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 03:22:40 PM by 123456789blaaa »
Please, call me Count :).

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2013, 12:22:47 AM »
That was before the move to a forum that was kind enough to give me my own place (it's now gone, courtesy of the Min-Max curse). Here's the most recent version:

"Here is how to qualify as a 'devil': use the SS ritual of association for the evil and lawful subtype via SS148. Now you have all the subtypes that defines a fiend and you count as a devil if you are an outsider native to Hell. That last part is covered by being an outsider native to the 9 Hells. How to be "native" to there? Very tough because their is only one way in all of D&D I am aware of to do this mechanically without a sketchy back story or well messing up our racial choice. Thankfully it is easy and fits nicely in the build. Just take a feat to shape the Planar Chasuble soulmend [MoI83]. It even specifies the correct plane!"

"Devils are fiends from lawful evil-aligned planes." "Evil outsiders are also called fiends."

1) Be an [evil] outsider
2a) Be 'from', ie. native to a lawful evil plane. But which ones? Clearly the 9 hells counts. Others are not specifically kosher.
2b) This gives you the [extraplanar] subtype. Grabbing the [lawful] subtype also seems to been assumed, unless you can find a specifically named devil without one. Technically this might not be necessary, but we are going for "undeniably a devil" here!

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
  • Former Lord of the Kitchen Sink
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2013, 01:59:18 AM »
Ritual of Alignment from savage species can get you the Lawful subtype, and it'll only cost about 56,000gp and just over 2,000 exp!

Planar Shepherd10 can make you native to any chosen plane.  So that's 15th level, I guess we have to start somewhere.
The Emperor
Can you find the Wumpus?

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2013, 09:34:48 AM »
Such a long discussion >.<

Race is loosely defined, the terminology is primarily used in PHB races however each and every single Monster is of it's own Race. IE Kobold is a separate Race from Aassmirs just as Star Elf is separate from Wood Elf. Except the latter are actually Sub-races of Elf so either can qualify for Elf based requirements, but only would could quality for "Star Elf" requirements.

There are roughly three general things printed that allow you to alter your race to qualify for another. The First is UMD which only applies on items, the second is Racial Emulation which is limited to Humanoid only, and Savage Species's Ritual of Association which works so long as the race has a Subtype.

Which Devils do. Baatezu is listed as a Subtype and this can be obtained, you are then treated in every single way a member of the Baatezu Race. And Baatezu is a Sub-Species of Devil, so like a Half-Orc saying he is a Orc, a Humanoid (Baatezu) can say he is a Devil.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 09:38:40 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2013, 12:08:55 PM »
That was before the move to a forum that was kind enough to give me my own place (it's now gone, courtesy of the Min-Max curse). Here's the most recent version:

"Here is how to qualify as a 'devil': use the SS ritual of association for the evil and lawful subtype via SS148. Now you have all the subtypes that defines a fiend and you count as a devil if you are an outsider native to Hell. That last part is covered by being an outsider native to the 9 Hells. How to be "native" to there? Very tough because their is only one way in all of D&D I am aware of to do this mechanically without a sketchy back story or well messing up our racial choice. Thankfully it is easy and fits nicely in the build. Just take a feat to shape the Planar Chasuble soulmend [MoI83]. It even specifies the correct plane!"

"Devils are fiends from lawful evil-aligned planes." "Evil outsiders are also called fiends."

1) Be an [evil] outsider
2a) Be 'from', ie. native to a lawful evil plane. But which ones? Clearly the 9 hells counts. Others are not specifically kosher.
2b) This gives you the [extraplanar] subtype. Grabbing the [lawful] subtype also seems to been assumed, unless you can find a specifically named devil without one. Technically this might not be necessary, but we are going for "undeniably a devil" here!
 

The "devils are fiends from lawful evil-aligned planes" can actually be interpreted either as a definition or a description. It's either:

1) All fiends from lawful evil-aligned planes are devils. 

2) The beings called devils are from lawful evil-aligned planes and are also fiends.

You seem to be going with the first one. If you look at the actual MM writup though, you'll see that their phrasing actually goes with the second one.

I couldn't seem to find a hard definition of "fiend". The closest thing I could find was the Knight of the Chalice's Fiendslaying ability working against evil Outsiders. Could you tell me where you got your definition of fiend from?

Also, there is actually another way to become native to the Nine Hells. Take the Hellsworn feat from Exemplars of Evil. It has crappy prereqs though so not  good choice. 

Such a long discussion >.<

Race is loosely defined, the terminology is primarily used in PHB races however each and every single Monster is of it's own Race. IE Kobold is a separate Race from Aassmirs just as Star Elf is separate from Wood Elf. Except the latter are actually Sub-races of Elf so either can qualify for Elf based requirements, but only would could quality for "Star Elf" requirements.

There are roughly three general things printed that allow you to alter your race to qualify for another. The First is UMD which only applies on items, the second is Racial Emulation which is limited to Humanoid only, and Savage Species's Ritual of Association which works so long as the race has a Subtype.

Which Devils do. Baatezu is listed as a Subtype and this can be obtained, you are then treated in every single way a member of the Baatezu Race. And Baatezu is a Sub-Species of Devil, so like a Half-Orc saying he is a Orc, a Humanoid (Baatezu) can say he is a Devil.

Okay...I can't actually find where having a particular subtype actually qualifies you for race-specific things. I'm looking in my MM right now and can't find it. There is a variant rule in RoD that says that half-humans and humanlike races can be changed to be humanoids with the [Human] subtype. It is unclear however if you need to be both humanoid and have the subtype or only the subtype.

I also question why the "orc blood" racial feature was given to half-orcs?  Don't they have the [Orc] subtype already? Also note that there are feats in RoD that specifically require the "orc blood" ability or the [Orc] subtype. Why not just require the person to be an Orc?

I'm also wondering if the Baatezu are actually a sub-species of Devil? What if it's just a social classification? And there's no [Drow] subtype or [star elf] subtype. If they're subraces then why make a subtype specifically for them?

Are [reptilian] creatures the same sub-species? What about [air] subtyped creatures?   

Also. to be a sub-race don't they have to split off from an actuall race? I don't see anything indicating that "devils" as a whole are one race.

AARRRRGG!  :witsend
Please, call me Count :).

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2013, 04:09:17 PM »
Soro has a better solution than me [MMV32]. I confess I'm a little down on my odd subtype knowledge. I usually find my more expensive, brute-force methods are more exceptable than correct, more elegant, but cheaper methods.

I also question why the "orc blood" racial feature was given to half-orcs?  Don't they have the [Orc] subtype already? Also note that there are feats in RoD that specifically require the "orc blood" ability or the [Orc] subtype. Why not just require the person to be an Orc?

I'm also wondering if the Baatezu are actually a sub-species of Devil? What if it's just a social classification? And there's no [Drow] subtype or [star elf] subtype. If they're subraces then why make a subtype specifically for them?

Are [reptilian] creatures the same sub-species? What about [air] subtyped creatures?   

Also. to be a sub-race don't they have to split off from an actuall race? I don't see anything indicating that "devils" as a whole are one race.
1) Because it was the PHB and the designers couldn't count on everyone to connect the dots so they spelled it out in superfluous ways.

2) Hmm good point. Drows have the [Elf] one though. They probably have the [Drow] one too because every separate humanoid race has their own. I suppose it depends on how closely related your DM thinks Drow are to Elves.

3) You mean different sup-species. Then again DnD isn't known for its rigorous taxonomy. Most strict would be to say yes all reptilian humanoids are the same race. Least strict would be to say that they all share the same racial descriptor, aka the same lineage. I tend towards the latter.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2013, 04:58:17 PM »
Okay...I can't actually find where having a particular subtype actually qualifies you for race-specific things.
That's because there is no such thing.

However a Baatezu is a Devil, and Baatezu is a Subtype. So while there is no such thing as a [Star Elf] Subtype you can use Ritual of Association on, for Devils there certainly is. And it's the closet thing you'll ever get.

Also Reptilian isn't a Race, it's a Subtype. Several Races have it and all would meet requirements that check for Reptilian, but I don't think any exist. Dragon-Blooded & Scaled One have stuff through.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 05:01:19 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2013, 09:09:07 PM »
Okay...I can't actually find where having a particular subtype actually qualifies you for race-specific things.
That's because there is no such thing.

However a Baatezu is a Devil, and Baatezu is a Subtype. So while there is no such thing as a [Star Elf] Subtype you can use Ritual of Association on, for Devils there certainly is. And it's the closet thing you'll ever get.

Also Reptilian isn't a Race, it's a Subtype. Several Races have it and all would meet requirements that check for Reptilian, but I don't think any exist. Dragon-Blooded & Scaled One have stuff through.

So if a subtype does not allow you to qualify for race specific things (like the [Elf] subtype not allowing you to count as an elf) than that means that you aren't actually:

Quote
treated in every single way a member of the Baatezu Race.

If you get the subtype .

Here's my thinking:

The [Baatezu] subtype does not actually turn you into a Baatezu (just like the [Elf] subtype does not actually turn you into an elf). It also doesn't help you qualify for "race specific" things (and you said the Baatezu were a race).

Since you aren't actually a Baatezu you aren't a devil either. Also, since  a Baatezu being a devil is a "race specific" thing you don't qualify for being a devil either.

Therefore, getting the [Baatezu] subtype does not let you count as a devil.

Is there a flaw in my thinking? I'm sort of tired right now...

(and I know that the reptilian is a subtype. That's why I put in in square brackets. I asked you the question for a reason I can't remember now. It doesn't really matter.)
Please, call me Count :).

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2013, 05:59:44 PM »
Okay...I can't actually find where having a particular subtype actually qualifies you for race-specific things.
That's because there is no such thing.
So if a subtype does not allow you to qualify for race specific things (like the [Elf] subtype not allowing you to count as an elf) than that means that you aren't actually
Ooh no my bad. I completely and utterly misread that in my haste to reply.

Ok. There are no base rules saying you can qualify for another race. IE you cannot look at Devil and break it into requirements; Outsider, Telepathy, Summon, etc. And then acquire those traits and claim you are a Devil.

There is however specific rules. As Ritual of Association's example is you obtaining the Orc Subtype and thus you are treated as an Orc. On the same token, obtaining the Dragonblooded Subtype lets you benefit from an increased CL with a couple of spells printed in RotD.

As noted, [Baatezu] is a real, printed, obtainable, Subtype.
And anything with [Baatezu] is a Devil.

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2013, 08:20:30 PM »
Okay...I can't actually find where having a particular subtype actually qualifies you for race-specific things.
That's because there is no such thing.
So if a subtype does not allow you to qualify for race specific things (like the [Elf] subtype not allowing you to count as an elf) than that means that you aren't actually
Ooh no my bad. I completely and utterly misread that in my haste to reply.

Ok. There are no base rules saying you can qualify for another race. IE you cannot look at Devil and break it into requirements; Outsider, Telepathy, Summon, etc. And then acquire those traits and claim you are a Devil.

There is however specific rules. As Ritual of Association's example is you obtaining the Orc Subtype and thus you are treated as an Orc. On the same token, obtaining the Dragonblooded Subtype lets you benefit from an increased CL with a couple of spells printed in RotD.

As noted, [Baatezu] is a real, printed, obtainable, Subtype.
And anything with [Baatezu] is a Devil.

Actually, the ritual explicitly only says you are treated as a member of the subtype for items.
Please, call me Count :).

Offline zook1shoe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4930
  • Feeling the Bern
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2013, 08:26:50 PM »
Then make an item that gives you the feat
add me on Steam- zook1shoe
- All Spells
- playground

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2013, 10:54:27 AM »
Actually, the ritual explicitly only says you are treated as a member of the subtype for items.
1. It grants the Subtype. (the only thing the Feat requirements cares about)
2. Changes your appearance. (+5 to disguise your self as what?)
3. Does not bestow the Subtype's abilities. (eg no telepathy)
4. You can use items as if you were a member of that Race. (umd does this too)

It only says items?
No.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2013, 07:21:00 PM »
Besides items what orc-only prereqs are there in SS or PHB?

Sloppy designers often shorten things like this. Considering how many pages just one book can be, I don't blame them.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2013, 01:25:32 AM »
Is there even an Orc only item in the DMG or SS to begin with?

Offline muktidata

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 695
  • Ephesians 2
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2013, 01:44:35 AM »
I know Shifters can get a tail. Does Half-Minotaur get you horns? Tridents are in the SRD.
I appreciate the logical, cool-headed responses and the lack of profanity displayed by our community.

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
Re: Ways to become a devil?
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2013, 05:47:34 PM »
Actually, the ritual explicitly only says you are treated as a member of the subtype for items.
1. It grants the Subtype. (the only thing the Feat requirements cares about)
2. Changes your appearance. (+5 to disguise your self as what?)
3. Does not bestow the Subtype's abilities. (eg no telepathy)
4. You can use items as if you were a member of that Race. (umd does this too)

It only says items?
No.

I think you know what I meant.

In case you didn't though, allow me to try and clarify.

There are two ways of interpreting that sentance:

1) The only thing the ritual says is that you qualify for items.

Even only a quick glance at the ritual makes it obvious that this is untrue. The only way a person could believe this is if they never even looked at the ritual and only heard about parts of it from other people.  Given that I've previously talked about the ritual granting the subtype it seems clear that I had looked at and read it.

2) For the purposes of qualifying for things that require the subtype, you can only qualify for items.

I meant this (it's why I italicised for items)

Anyways, I also think the bracketed part of your first point is wrong. Being a Baatezu means you are a devil. However, gaining the subtype does not seem to actually make you a Baatezu (in the same way that gaining the [Elf] subtype does not make you an elf). Since you aren't a Baatezu you aren't a devil either. You also don't count as a Baatezu for anything that requires you to be one (except for items)...like being a devil.

You would probably be correct if you were talking about say...getting into the Fiend of Possesion PRC (since it explicitly asks for the [Evil] subtype).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 05:49:44 PM by 123456789blaaa »
Please, call me Count :).