Titanic Creature

[Raineh Daze]

Have to say, isn't that implicit in the swarm rules? They're treated as a creature of the swarm size. O_o

[Yasahiro]

So a 10 foot by 10 foot swarm of fine sized creatures counts as large?

[oslecamo]

Correct.

[Yasahiro]

If I can offer opinion on this, that doesn't make sense. That's a group of fine sized creatures trying to damage the titanic creature. The Titanic's abilities shouldn't care about number but rather how big each creature is

[oslecamo]

Counter-opinion:
-A rat has 1 HP and deals max of 1 damage, thus dying to any stiff breeze and unable to penetrate any type of DR.
-A swarm of rats has 18 HP and deals 1d6 damage, meaning it can tank minor area effects and penetrate small amounts of DR.

The whole point of swarms is precisely that the group is greater than the sum of individuals.

[Yasahiro]

Counter counter point.
They're still small individually. And unless I remember pathfinder or something else a Swarm can divide, change how many spaces it occupies and decrease in spaces it occupies due to lost hp and still deal same damage as a larger swarm.

Edit: SRD lists size of swarm as size of individual creatures, it's just they occupy bigger space and have different rules for that.

[oslecamo]

You're remembering pathfinder. D&D swarms can only change their shape, but area stays the same regardless of other factors.

[ketaro]

Counter counter counter counter counter point:

Swarms are only classified by the size category of their individual components. That they happen to take up a 10ft square is, in itself, a separate rule within the Swarm type description; however not necessarily actually called out as a "Large" creature despite it's occupied space on the map.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm

Swarms are dense masses of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that would not be particularly dangerous in small groups, but can be terrible foes when gathered in sufficient numbers. For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity.

Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space

In order to attack, a single swarm moves into opponents’ spaces, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey, but remains a creature with a 10-foot space. Swarms never make attacks of opportunity, but they can provoke attacks of opportunity.

Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures.

It goes on saying that swarms larger than a 10ft square are merely made up for multiples of regular, smaller swarms. *shrugs*

In short, Swarms don't have sizes. The creatures that make up the swarms do.

[oslecamo]

Ah well I guess you're right then and Titanic creature is super effective against swarms.

[ketaro]

I mean, considering the amount of AoE attacks being big can get you, it feels like it'd make sense as being super effective vs swarms

[RegalKain]

So I'm a bit curious as to how much of an issue it might cause if "Growth" from other classes counted for the purposes of Titanic Creature ability limits? For instance the Minotaur gets Growth, would it get completely borked if it's natural Growth's counted as taking instances of Titanic Creature's Growth ability?

Edit: Also any chance it'd be possible to add in an option either in BiB or SM that lets you exclude allies from your massive AoE attacks?

Edit2: I was also thinking of another possible ability. To Big to Fail: The titanic creature treats the minimum roll on any damage roll as 1 higher. (For instance if they roll 2d6 and get a 1 and a 5 it counts as a 2 and a 5) You may take this a number of times equal to the times you've taken Growth, each time increasing your minimum by 1. (1 and 2s become 3s, 1, 2 and 3s become 4s etc.)

[oslecamo]

So I'm a bit curious as to how much of an issue it might cause if "Growth" from other classes counted for the purposes of Titanic Creature ability limits? For instance the Minotaur gets Growth, would it get completely borked if it's natural Growth's counted as taking instances of Titanic Creature's Growth ability?

An interesting question. In one hand it may not be broken per se, but in the other hand it would feel like a "win more" where Creatures that are already quite big would benefit exponentially more from Titanic Creature when it's more supposed to help smaller creatures go big. Plus some monster classes like the Animated Object get really fast growths (and the giants get a bunch of free growths per HD with a dip),  so I feel like not making it stack is better.

Edit: Also any chance it'd be possible to add in an option either in BiB or SM that lets you exclude allies from your massive AoE attacks?

Added Gentle Giant to Bigger is Better.

Edit2: I was also thinking of another possible ability. To Big to Fail: The titanic creature treats the minimum roll on any damage roll as 1 higher. (For instance if they roll 2d6 and get a 1 and a 5 it counts as a 2 and a 5) You may take this a number of times equal to the times you've taken Growth, each time increasing your minimum by 1. (1 and 2s become 3s, 1, 2 and 3s become 4s etc.)

Now that seems a bit clunky to use in actual play and all you gain is slightly bigger numbers whitout any real tactical considerations.

[dman]

Technical questions:
Does Monster Lord allow a titanic creature to damage, reach, grapple, trample, swallow, and shrug off as if he were a Colossal+ size while still being medium size?

Does Shrug Off make him immune to all special abilities that allow a save that come from creatures smaller than Colossal+?

Does Shrug Off(2) turn all saves to Con saves or just saves from no-save abilities?

[oslecamo]

Technical questions:
Does Monster Lord allow a titanic creature to damage, reach, grapple, trample, swallow, and shrug off as if he were a Colossal+ size while still being medium size?

Does Shrug Off make him immune to all special abilities that allow a save that come from creatures smaller than Colossal+?

Does Shrug Off(2) turn all saves to Con saves or just saves from no-save abilities?

-Yes.
-Only if they actually make the save.
-Only no-save abilities.