Author Topic: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB  (Read 38800 times)

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2014, 05:47:13 PM »
@Captnq
D&D character design is not a loot table.  The entire Borderlands analogy is misplaced.  You are importing the idea of a game that is designed to elicit continued play, i.e., to prevent the player from saying "oh, cool, I have a Hellfire, I guess I won" and putting down the controller, and trying to draw an analogy to character creation resources.  This does not work.  There is no slot machine type of effect with character creation resources.  They are clearly and nicely finite.  You have a finite number of feats and classes and spells and so on. 

The point is to get the player to choose between options that are comparable, to have to weigh the choices.  Borderlands 2 actually does this really well in some ways.  Do I want to use a Hellfire or a Florentine?  Well, they have pros and cons, depends on the situation, build, mood, enemy type, etc.  The game isn't perfect in this regard, (cough, Unkempt Harold) but you can see where it's trying to do it.  That is the sort of decisionmaking character creation resources should be. 

For that kind of decisionmaking to be elicited, options need not be "dominated" in the game theoretic sense.  To the extent that Wizard > X in all cases and all scenarios (this is what "dominated" means, roughly), then there's no meaningful decision to make.  Always be Wizard/use Harold/etc.  You get the idea. 

Now, there is a point that I do agree with above, which is that trying too hard to balance simply leads to madness.  There are too many subtle interactions to keep straight, and trying to do so overmuch leads to an uninteresting and stale game.  So, you don't want to hold game balance up as some sort of idol and dance around it to the displeasure of a jealous god.  But, that doesn't mean that the ideal isn't that each class, feat, etc. isn't at least intended to be cool, awesome, etc.

For example, the shitty PHB Ranger is a mistake.  It doesn't do what it's supposed to do.  That's bad.  Ignorance may be the reason, and maybe even an excuse, but it's still a demerit.  And, I don't need a shitty Ranger to provide me a guidepost for what a good Swift Hunter does.  Especially not in a game like 3E D&D which, say what you will about the system, puts a lot effort into giving you good guideposts for what constitutes effective, powerful, overpowered, etc. at a given level. 

The other part I will happily agree with is that lots of options leads to a lot of bits to use in new and interesting ways.  That's the fun of the game, especially one like D&D.  Call it "the weird and wonderful" stuff in the game.  But, none of those bits should be designed to be strictly weaker than others (see dominance, above).  Something that is weird and whose use is not immediately obvious, i.e., something that appears weak but might somehow have a neat application, is fine.  Something like Toughness, that is both weak and insufficiently weird to generate a niche use, is not.

Tangentially, there is something a new edition always struggles with.  5E D&D will have to compete in its infancy with the entire corpus of 3E D&D.  To me, that means that it would have to be a pretty serious and innovative improvement. 

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2014, 09:00:03 PM »
The in-combat party buffer, if few changes were made to the class, is likely to come from the Bard. In the playtest, at least, they had a "College of War" option which provided abilities that made them pretty useful in many ways in that role. Even just their standard Bardic song abilities are good boosts, and my players right now are mourning the loss of the party Bard (the character didn't die; the player ended up having to move to a different state). More often than not, the Bard made other people in the party better at what they did. That's not to say he was useless for everything else, but Bards are good buffers, as they should be. Clerics and Wizards, too, work well as buffers.

From what Captnq mentioned earlier, the Bard may have seen some extensive changes (in the playtest, they only got 'partial' spellcasting, which only went up to 5th level spells; I think Captnq said Bards get up to 9th level spells, earlier, which puzzles me. But he's got the PHB, and I don't. Dammit. :P)

Offline Captnq

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2014, 11:18:42 PM »
Tangentially, there is something a new edition always struggles with.  5E D&D will have to compete in its infancy with the entire corpus of 3E D&D.  To me, that means that it would have to be a pretty serious and innovative improvement.

No. It doesn't. You know why?

Day One: Put out a player's handbook with 3,334 spells. How?
Oh, I dunno, just convert the 3,334 spells already in existence in 3.5.
Oh hell, get rid of the worst 2,334 spells. Just give me the best 1,000 3.5 spells in the PBH. Don't give me any crap about cost or anything. Make it a damn PDF. It will cost you nothing. Make it a Web-G'damn-Enhancement.

But they won't. Ever. You know how I know?

The release date for the DMG is Nov 19th. Black Friday is the 28th. Can't ship on the 28th, 27th is thanksgiving, some people take a whole week off, so... the 49.95 dollar book needs to be on the shelves by the 21st, a friday. In case there are any problems with distribution, we need someone in the office, so we need two extra days. Because if there is any problems with distribution, nobody is going to be in the office after 9:01pm EST on friday the 21st, and lord knows how many people are taking a vacation that week.

If you are releasing the DMG, the single most important book for RUNNING the game on Nov 19th, you are doing it in hopes of getting under Christmas trees by December 25th.

That is cold, calculating, greed. That's bean-counter planning. That's someone with a tie and a suit making the choices.

I get that you don't get it. I lived in that world. To you, this seems normal. I'm sure you're about to raise up, "Why shouldn't they make money?" Nothing wrong with making money. Are you making the money because you love the game and want it to flourish, or are you making the money because you LOVE MONEY.

If they released all the core books together in a set that was cheaper to buy as a unit soft cover, then a limited edition hard cover boxed set, they'd make money, and get the information out there, and get down to the buisness of running the game.

But check the release schedule. That's not someone trying to win back fans. That's someone trying to build up hype then cash in on black friday.

And here's the weird thing. Here's the god-damn, funny as hell thing...

I actually like the new spell system. I'm liking the SYSTEM. The SYSTEM isn't bad. When you get past the stupid crap, the under lying mechanics ain't bad. I like the new concentration rules, the simplified conditions. They trimmed away a whole bunch of useless. The whole Advantage/Disadvantage thing. Kinda cool. Damage types. I like how they got all the ducks in a row. They were kind to non-spellcasters. Got rid of a whole bunch of feat taxes. Made the remaining feats much stronger.

But it's like they have this nice, new, shiny thing, and it's an engine. But the example parts they gave you to hook up to the engine are made by IKEA. When I read it, I feel like I need to turn on my pop-up blocker. And then, I look over at the beat up engine under my 1965 car. When I gun the engine, gas goes up 6 cents a gallon. When it drives down the road, the ozone layer starts holding up signs begging for mercy. But it's got power. I can do ANYTHING with that monster.

So why don't you take everything cool about my muscle car and put it on your shiny new engine? The answer, We plan on it. In time. Little here, a little there. "Oh, we can't do it all at once! We need to go slow about this. Don't want to make any mistakes."

Uh, this 3.5 stuff has like, I dunno 10+ years of play testing. I'm sure some of it could be ported over right away. Not all of it. How about 25%? Just give me the best 1 out of 4. How about....

371 spells? That's... what I get. You have 4 previous editions of D&D to choose from and I get 11% of 3rd edition. And not even the best 11%. No...  maybe 40 new spells. The rest are the same old spells that have been in the PHB for 5 editions now. And these spells have to be spread among Bard, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard.

I get maybe 1% cool spells and 10% same old same old of the 3,334 spells that 3rd has to offer.


Ah. Perfect example. Hero System. It was screwed up. It needed fixing. When they did a new edition, it was to correct the game. They included EVERYTHING in one big book. Yes, you needed to rebuy the rules, but only one book. This is it. We swear. We're moving on from here with all new stuff.

WotC is not putting out a new edition to fix the game. They are attempting to repackage the old game to make MONEY. There is nothing in the product or behavior to indicate to me otherwise. If at any point someone who loved the game was trying to turn it around at WotC, he has lost control.

You know what, I'm done. if you can't figure it out, I'm done explaining.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 11:35:25 PM by Captnq »
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Offline VennDygrem

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2014, 01:25:37 AM »
I had a long response to the above, and then a shorter response I replaced it with after typing it all out. I decided that even that wasn't going to be taken too well.

I'll leave this here simply with the fact that I disagree with a number of the points being made, and leave it at that in the interest of civility.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:28:21 AM by VennDygrem »

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2014, 02:57:57 AM »
they can't do all the spells now b/c they want to spread them out in splat books
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2014, 03:02:50 AM »
Seems like you make sense to me. But then again I'm good at understanding what people mean.

Good response Venn. 3k posts and I rarely see them...

Offline linklord231

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2014, 03:45:57 AM »
With all the ranting going on about converting old spells/classes/whatever to the new system, I should probably ask:  How easy is it to convert things?
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline RelentlessImp

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2014, 05:25:51 AM »
With all the ranting going on about converting old spells/classes/whatever to the new system, I should probably ask:  How easy is it to convert things?
For spells:
1: Set bullshit base damage. (Fireball, 8d6)
2: Let the in-place system scale (+1 spell level = +1d6 damage)
3: Copy descriptive text from 3.5, replace relevant bits.
4: ???
5: Profit.

Mind you, I kind of like the new spell system - but it's HIGHLY dependent on whether or not they've gotten rid of 3.5's and 4E's egregious HP bloats and allowed blasting to be viable again.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 05:27:23 AM by RelentlessImp »

Offline Captnq

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2014, 11:18:31 AM »
they can't do all the spells now b/c they want to spread them out in splat books

Exactly. I already paid for all those books. I have no less then eight bookshelves in my house with five shelves each, packed with books, the extras in boxes in the crawl space. Between me and the wife, we got over 2,500 books. I own a complete collection of oWoD. Even that one subcontracted module Blood nativity.

I'd love to play fifth edition, please update all the stuff I already bought. Don't make ME do all the work. If I got to convert my own material, why not just save time and just play 3.5? If some of the stuff is unbalanced, fine, don't include it. But I find it hard to believe everything is unbalanced. When I look at my 3.5 PHB, I see "Spell Research - See DMG" It's an option for players, but the rules are for DMG only. In 5th, it's not an option for players. You cannot research spells, or at least it doesn't tell the players you can. Maybe the rules are in the DMG, maybe they don't exist. but they don't even TELL the players its an option anymore.

But its not just the spells. It's everything. They take away everything, give me back 10% of what I once had after I shell out... what? 200 bucks for the complete core set? And then they might give me back up to 1-2% of what I already had, once a month, with every new release, at 24.95 a pop. You want me to invest my money in your books, add them to my vast collection, but you don't have the decency to give me anything new. You are trying to sell me what I already have. But If I'm going to keep current with this game, I need to keep coughing up serious coin.

I'm sorry. I got bills to pay. This is not a good value for my money. This is not a good investment for my time. I get paid a penny a word when I write for someone else. I make 22/hour when I work overtime. Why am I doing the work I already paid for? Why can't you give me something new? Why can't you update what already exists? That's what an edition is. It's not a new game entirely, it's a revision. Give me my old game, up to date with the new rules, as cheaply as possible, then make new stuff. I will buy revised versions of my old books, if the price is right, then you can get me hooked on new material.

It's not like I'm asking them to update my I3 through I5 modules. I'm not even asking for background, setting, or any of that. Just give me the spells, feats, classes, equipment, magic items, races, monsters, and gods. Give me the pieces to build with, then I'll buy your settings and you'll make your money. They can make more of all that stuff, why can't they give more more then 10% of what I already had?

Unless of course, they plan on giving it back to me, every few weeks, in the next book.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2014, 02:23:23 PM »
Hey CapQ, you're doing great work with 3.5, and
you suggest you like going shopping with your Wife, so ...  :D :flutter

VennD ... yeah I mean there's lots of places to put it.
I figure that'll be a single issue yes or no vote, for some of the holdout 4e fans.


Seems like you make sense to me. But then again I'm good at understanding what people mean ...

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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2014, 02:59:41 PM »
I had a long response to the above, and then a shorter response I replaced it with after typing it all out. I decided that even that wasn't going to be taken too well.

I'll leave this here simply with the fact that I disagree with a number of the points being made, and leave it at that in the interest of civility.
I think I'm going to follow your example VennDygrem, which I probably wouldn't have done without this post (so, implicit thanks).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:02:08 PM by Unbeliever »

Offline Wrex

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2014, 05:51:16 PM »
Worth noting that from the monsters in Lost Mine of Phandelver, HP bloat has returned with a vengeance. The "Challenge 1" evil wizard for instance, has 5d8 HP and 4th level wizard casting.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2014, 07:14:34 PM »
Well, if it has 4th level wizard casting, that sounds more like a miniboss. It's not really HP bloat if the monster is hitting harder as well.

Offline Childe

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2014, 02:17:27 AM »
Well, if it has 4th level wizard casting, that sounds more like a miniboss. It's not really HP bloat if the monster is hitting harder as well.
Miniboss? That sounds like a TPK. Level 1 wizard casting is enough to 1-shot fellow party members. Level 4 casting versus a level 1 party is just trolling everyone involved - DM and players - for wasting their time and money on this product.
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Offline SolEiji

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2014, 02:31:49 AM »
Well, if it has 4th level wizard casting, that sounds more like a miniboss. It's not really HP bloat if the monster is hitting harder as well.
Miniboss? That sounds like a TPK. Level 1 wizard casting is enough to 1-shot fellow party members. Level 4 casting versus a level 1 party is just trolling everyone involved - DM and players - for wasting their time and money on this product.

I'm presuming this is "wizard 4" and not "level 4 spells".  It wouldn't seem to be THAT big of a leap, I could see a level 2 spell being used in a boss encounter.  Some exceptions apply, 4d6 damage would be fatal to most 1st levels but perfectly fine for something beyond direct damage.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2014, 06:04:45 AM »
Well, if it has 4th level wizard casting, that sounds more like a miniboss. It's not really HP bloat if the monster is hitting harder as well.
Miniboss? That sounds like a TPK. Level 1 wizard casting is enough to 1-shot fellow party members. Level 4 casting versus a level 1 party is just trolling everyone involved - DM and players - for wasting their time and money on this product.

Ok, perhaps more of a Final/Ex boss. :p

I would have to check the actual conditions where the party faces said wizard though. Perhaps he's an optional battle, for those players who like to play it hardcore. Perhaps there's some special item or NPC allies that can be obtained to make the battle more favorable for the party. Perhaps the evil wizard himself drops great exp and loot.

And as pointed out, 4th level wizard casting isn't that much over 1st level wizard casting. The boss can throw one or two 2nd level spells that'll hurt quite a bit, yes. But if he's fighting alone, the party should still be able to overwhelm him trough teamwork.

Offline Kasz

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2014, 06:34:50 AM »
PHB and Warlock sneak peak.

I'm feeling like they merged Binder and Warlock a little... kinda like what they did in 4e but I never played 4e.

I like Warlock, I love Binder... I hope this ends up alright...it says I can dedicate myself to the utterly alien.... I have missed good old Father Llymic.

Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2014, 11:42:01 AM »
Damage wise,

The diff between a 1st and 4th level wizard in terms of damage is not that large, with the second level slots just providing an additional 1dX.

Moving up to 5th level is huge, in terms of getting those 3rd level slots, fireball/lightning bolt and the higher sustainable damage out of cantrips.

The damage scaling isn't as smooth of a curve as with 3.5 caster level.

Offline Childe

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2014, 11:49:37 PM »
Well, if it has 4th level wizard casting, that sounds more like a miniboss. It's not really HP bloat if the monster is hitting harder as well.
Miniboss? That sounds like a TPK. Level 1 wizard casting is enough to 1-shot fellow party members. Level 4 casting versus a level 1 party is just trolling everyone involved - DM and players - for wasting their time and money on this product.

I'm presuming this is "wizard 4" and not "level 4 spells".  It wouldn't seem to be THAT big of a leap, I could see a level 2 spell being used in a boss encounter.  Some exceptions apply, 4d6 damage would be fatal to most 1st levels but perfectly fine for something beyond direct damage.
I'm assuming Wizard 4 as well. His Magic Missiles can deal 4d4+4 damage (automatic hits). That's 8-20 damage (average 14), enough to down virtually anyone in the party (for the level it's aimed at). Thankfully he doesn't have any AoEs. Burning Hands is 3d6 at level 1, for instance.
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Offline Nunkuruji

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Re: D&D 5th edition Next - PHB
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2014, 10:04:53 AM »
From Basic Rules, 4d4+4 magic missile would indicate 4th level spell slots

That is, unless there is an Arcane Tradition or feat causing the damage boost. The evocation arcane tradition in the Basic Rules does not confer such a benefit.

Thus, Wizard 7 at the least. The 5d8 HP statement makes no sense to me.