Author Topic: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)  (Read 6158 times)

Offline prospero63

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Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« on: April 26, 2012, 12:15:31 PM »
Hello, I'm considering playing a Crusader in a new campaign. It's starting off as 1st level. My understanding is that I start off with 5 maneuvers known. As you gain levels, you learn more maneuvers (1 new maneuver every odd level). You can also swap out 1 old maneuver for 1 new maneuver starting at 4th level and every even level after that. Is there any reason at 5th level to NOT fill up all your maneuvers known? Looking at it, if you fill up with 5 1st level maneuvers it seems that when you get 2nd level maneuvers (at 3rd level) you can only pick 1 of them. I can't help but think it might make sense to, rather than take a maneuver you aren't terribly interested in, to hold onto the slot for when you gain a level to use it for something that might be better.

So my question is essentially does it make sense to hold onto maneuver slots in this manner? For that matter, is that even possible or if you have 5 maneuvers known, do you have to know 5, end of story. Thanks!

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2012, 12:52:00 PM »
I don't think you can "hold on" to maneuvers known. You have to choose them when they become available. So it's basically a moot point.

However... if you multiclass, you can start out with higher level maneuvers known at the cost of your higher level maneuvers. It's a toss-up as to whether it is worth it.

For example, a Fighter 2/Barbarian2/Crusader 1 (taking his first crusader level at 5th) could have all five of his maneuvers known be 2nd level, if he wanted. He's still stuck with a 1st level stance, though. If he went X6/Crusader 2, he could pick up a 3rd level stance (say... Thicket of Blades) with his 2nd crusader level, though, which IIRC is actually as fast or faster than a single-classed crusader can get that stance.
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Offline prospero63

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2012, 03:15:05 PM »
OK, cool. Yeah, I wasn't sure if you could hold on to them similar to not spending skill points or taking a feat or if you have to fill them all up. Thanks!

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2012, 03:25:58 PM »
OK, cool. Yeah, I wasn't sure if you could hold on to them similar to not spending skill points or taking a feat or if you have to fill them all up. Thanks!

For the record, you're not allowed to do either of those things either.

Offline prospero63

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2012, 05:00:03 PM »
That may be a house rule. Same players and campaigns for over a decade, so holding onto skill points or not immediately taking feats is pretty par for the course. At this point, it's become "normal".

Offline prospero63

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2012, 05:17:45 PM »
For the record, you're not allowed to do either of those things either.
It's neither here nor there for my original question, but you caused me to go look it up because we've done it so long in my game group I wasn't for sure where it came from. With regards to skills, whether a house rule or an interpretation, I believe in our game the key is the difference between acquiring skills at 1st level vs. other levels. The section on acquiring skills at 1st level clearly states "Spend all your skill points. You can't save them to spend later". The section on skills at higher levels doesn't have that line. Again, not sure if the DM just decided to house rule it or interpret it that way (but historically he's been very pedantic about where something is or isn't included).

With regards to feats, I can't find anything that says you have to take a feat immediately. In our cases, a "held" feat at 3rd level for example is still a 3rd level feat. No using it for epic or to double up some funky prereq. It's more in the category of "I don't know what the heck to take yet". Again though, could be 100% house rule (I'm not the DM, I just live by his rules...)

Thanks!

Offline Alexei

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2012, 05:24:18 PM »
You might prefer to edit your posts instead of having 4 in succesion...

About crusader, as the Handbooks -written by people with far more experience than me- don't list this trick, which would be a fairly easy one, I would take it means you must choose maneuvers in the same level they are granted, without delaying them to get an increased level maneuver-stance

Offline prospero63

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2012, 06:23:27 PM »
You might prefer to edit your posts instead of having 4 in succesion...

About crusader, as the Handbooks -written by people with far more experience than me- don't list this trick, which would be a fairly easy one, I would take it means you must choose maneuvers in the same level they are granted, without delaying them to get an increased level maneuver-stance

Yeah, I was trying to figure out how to delete that one post. Oh well. Thanks!

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2012, 06:38:28 PM »
There has never been an official ruling on the issue, but there has been a FAQ post about it. While the FAQ is most certainly not RAW, this is one of the times where it is reasonable to listen to the FAQ.


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Offline prospero63

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2012, 06:58:56 PM »
There has never been an official ruling on the issue, but there has been a FAQ post about it. While the FAQ is most certainly not RAW, this is one of the times where it is reasonable to listen to the FAQ.


BTW, the easiest way to delete a post is to report it.

Sounds good. BTW, thanks for your work on the handbook. I've been pouring over it (in fact, it's open in the next tab). It's been a *long* time since I've played a completely new class like this, so the handbook has been invaluable in helping to try to understand the class, how it functions, etc. It may not be the most optimum build (but it will roleplay really well I think) but I'm probably going to wind up Paladin 4 then switching to Crusader to finish it off. Provided we don't get TPK'd first. :-)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2012, 08:23:19 PM »
While the FAQ is most certainly not RAW, this is one of the times where it is reasonable to listen to the FAQ.
Is it reasonable to say it consists of rules, only when those rules are right/consistent?

I never understood the flame wars over the FAQ. Either something was clearly useful, or clearly not.

Offline prospero63

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2012, 09:00:03 PM »
Well, speaking only for myself the info in this thread, the FAQ and the handbooks was all of value in helping to gain an understanding of how I think the maneuvers, etc. work. I know my DM uses the FAQ's as a frame of reference and data point, but ultimately he decides how something works.

Next task, trying to wrap my brain around the way maneuvers are granted.  :)

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2012, 09:12:48 PM »
Well, speaking only for myself the info in this thread, the FAQ and the handbooks was all of value in helping to gain an understanding of how I think the maneuvers, etc. work. I know my DM uses the FAQ's as a frame of reference and data point, but ultimately he decides how something works.

Next task, trying to wrap my brain around the way maneuvers are granted.  :)
It's a lot easier to use cards for the crusader. There are some you can download and print on the WotC website.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline Vicerious

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2012, 09:15:26 PM »
The best explanation of the crusader's readied/granted/expended system is the sidebar on page 38 of the Tome of Battle.  Using cards like phaedrus suggests is a great idea.
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Offline prospero63

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2012, 09:25:21 PM »
Excellent info! Our game is run out of maptool. I'm going to start with the card idea like y'all mention and see if I can write something up that will programatically handle it in maptool or excel. Thanks a bunch to everyone for their feedback and advice.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2012, 09:27:33 PM »
I haven't updated it yet, but please ask your DM to look into the unofficial errata for the Bo9S.

WotC really dropped the ball, so we did our best to pick up the slack.
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Offline prospero63

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2012, 10:02:40 PM »
Will do. Thanks!

Offline Endarire

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Re: Question about maneuvers (new to the Crusader)
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2012, 11:31:40 PM »
This is how I explain things.

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