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Messages - Gruftzwerg

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"Most creatures" = no strict rule / but doesn't affect the discussed ability anyway
Actually several creatures have natural reach, and you can get grafts/spells/items/feats to increase it further, and by using that phasing it can cover all exceptions and include yours within it. But the difference between those creatures and your arguments is they have rules stating they can and you're unable to understand the difference because you choose not to. And that's just one of the reasons why you've got three people here, and several others else where, telling you that you're wrong.

As already said:
"Most Creatures" doesn't force you into any rules. It just talks about how most creatures and reach weapons work. The sole part that somewhat defines Reach (in the Rules Compendium) is "Threatened Squares".

Further:
Quote from: Reach from Rules Compendium
.., so they
threaten all squares within that reach, including diagonal ones.
Quote from: Threatened Squares from Rules Compendium
If you’re considered armed, you threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack,...

-Reach & Threatened Squares (General Rules) gets Trumped by Thunderous Throw (Special Rule)-

Because Thunderous Throw allows me to make melee attacks (until end of my turn) up to 50ft away, I threaten them until end of my turn (which means no AoO in most chases since it's only on my turn).
And if I threaten them (until end of my turn..), they have to be within my reach.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't see any evidence so far, why it shoudn't work. Only facts (imho) why it should work. So pls give me more details about your opinion: how the rules work (in your opinion), or what I may have missed/failed on my thoughts?

______

again thx for the feedback, your interest & time to everybody  :)

2
The Rules Compedium has a definition for Reach on pg18 (in the section covering AoOs):

Quote
Reach
Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of
only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks
only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However,
Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons might
threaten more squares than a typical creature. Creatures larger
than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more, so they
threaten all squares within that reach, including diagonal ones.
Creatures smaller than Small typically have a natural reach of
0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. Since
they have no natural reach, such creatures don’t threaten the
squares around them at all. See Size, page 116.

"Most creatures" = no strict rule / but doesn't affect the discussed ability anyway

Later the text just talks about reach weapons and creatures smaller than small. Again nothing that affects the BSB ability.
I don't see how the text helps you to rule against it??

As far as I see, there ain't been provided any reliable rules that would be against the way I interpreted the BSB ability rule-wise. I'm still open, if you can point me to something I may have missed,. But as said, I already have worked for a longer time on this topic and I am very confident with my point of view.


Spring Attack requires BAB +4, so you can't take it at level 3.

Expanded Knowledge is a [Psionic] feat that learns you a power, not a spell feat for spell-spellers what spell up spells.


Those are two of the shallower flaws; I see the deeper dysfunctions have already been addressed.

Oh yeah, seem to have missed the SA BAB requirement. But could be solved with feat rearrangement (take Empower @lvl3 and delay the rest).

And the build is talking about the Expanded Knowledge "ability" of the Recaster, not the psionic feat!

PS: Sorry for the delay in my response, I did had to much RL stuff to do the the past weeks.. ;)

btw: the intention of the build was a solid duskblade WW build which can hold it's own in most (combat) situation. Sure you can build more powerful builds with full casters and such, but that was not the intention. My intention was to take a medicore class, namely Duskblade, combined with another medicore Feat (WW) and make it into a deadly build.  The build leaves still enough room to be playable on most tables and can still be easily countered if needed by the DM.

3
If you can find a clear definition of (just only!) "reach" in 3.5 that contradicts this, I would be happy to see it.
That's impossible. See "Reach", not "natural reach" which is you adding a word that's not there to claim the meaning is different, is a property of a Creature's Size. And a listed characteristic in stat blocks. And has it's own further defined entry under AoOs & combat. And Google/Oxford define reach as both a verb and noun to mean something in arm's length which isn't how you're trying to use the word or claim it means. But you have ignored everyone on GitP that have already told you this and posted it here, receiving the same exact points as before. Clearly there is nothing in the world that you'll accept as a "clear definition".
If you have read the post on gitp than you know how the discussion went. No one could provide a clear definition "reach" from the rules. A single column in a table doesn't explain anything, it's just a value.
If you look up the definition of reach weapons, everything demanded is provided by BSB Thunderous Throw ability. You have the ability to attack enemies not ancient to you with a melee attack/weapon. The ability enables me to do exactly that. If you can lead me to a real definition of "reach" in 3.5 terms, bold written as pharagraph with explaining text that trumps the regular english definition or as title for a table, than we can talk.

Here you have the 3.5 Glossary.
Look it up:
You'll find, natural reach, reach weapons, but not "reach" itself. If you can find a definition in 3.5 show me. And no, just the usage of the regular english word "reach" in the middle of a sentence or for a single column doesn't define/explain anything. Keyword need to be clearly declared, otherwise it's undefined. As I said on the gitp board, this is true for any kind of rule text and laws. You can't expect people to look the entire rules/laws to find every use of a single word to make sure you didn't miss any keywords. This would take forever and ain't practical. You need to define words clearly visible to prevent this type of discussions.



First the build is optimized around Shivering Touch
If that were the case I'd use a standard Metamagic cost reduction build with Reach/Chained/Widened Shivering Touch in some Arcane Fusions as spell option instead of a dedicated build to deal an even higher amount of Dexterity damage to a 60ft area. Spell Thematics can even make it look like you're tossing a giant ghostly golden hammer just like Diablo too. And you'd still have enough room to gish out so you can run around in armor and even stack on some auras too.
which deals DEX dmg and not HP dmg.
I quit playing years ago, did the Diablo 2 hammerdin nerf changed them from dealing unresistant hit point damage (like a scorching scalding touch spell) to preventing their opponent from walking away?

I said: "still inherits some of the fluff that is related to Hammerdin build from the game Diablo (2/3) but ain't restricted to hammers thrown." Did I say, this is the D2 Hammerdin? If you would pay attention when you read my stuff, maybe we would have lesser confusion.
And the fluff that the build still inherits is the "whirling weapon around you".
And as already said: I need either Recaster or Wyrm Wizard to get Shivering Touch on my spell list. Recaster is the better solution, since the metamagic abilities are useful compared to the stuff Wyrm Wizard would give.
Sure you could go for a "standard Metamagic cost reduction build" as you said, but the amount of cheese/reduction needed won't be allowed on many tables. And that was not my intend. My Intend was a Arcane Channeling build. If you would like to make a build with standard Metamagic cost reduction, it's you choice.


Also there was an officially released Diablo 2 d20 product, you should check it out. We don't get many comments on published books outside of the official ones. Optimizing D2 builds is virtually untouched.
I had the box, but most stuff got lost over the years.. But as said, it was just a tiny bit of fluff that inspired me to this build, nothing else.

No Save, No SR, just I win & all enemies in range lose.
:huh
Quote from: Shivering Touch
Spell Resistance: Yes

but it's a build that can still hold water even in most lvl 20 and 20+ campaigns. So there is a niche for it imho.
You need to roll a 19 (10% chance) to even affect an equal CRed Pit Fiend and it only works twice per day in a game that wants you to face four Encounters a day. And even if you overlook SR the one trick it dedicated it's self to struggles for success against some of the lowest monsters out of the ELH, the CR21 Chichimec & CR22 Anaxim, because they both require you to roll higher than average to even deplete their Dexterity. (edit: bad examples, both are immune to ability damage so their high dexterity doesn't matter)
Oh, somehow I did got the SR part wrong in my mind, sry for that..^^. But since the build is focused on that ability/spell, you should expect items to compensate that at least a bit.
And only the metamagic boosters are limited per daily use. The build can still spam WW with Shivering Touch "normal" each round (and kill everything within a few rounds). Further, you won't need maximize & empower at the same time for most encounters. Maximize is enough for most enemies. So you can save your daily charges for the important stuff.

You'll forever hate me over this exchange but stick around. Participating in a forum will do you some good and in a couple years you can come back and revisit it to make it even more powerful than before.
I don't hate you. I'll really like to discuss rules and that's what we are doing^^. It's just that neither of us could convince the other so far, but that's life/normal on boards and in reality  :)

4
As always I hope for some feedback and response
I'm not sure Range Increments has anything to do with Whirlwind's limitation of being within your Reach but you can replace Recaster, use a Runestaff to access the Spell and there are better ways to reduce Metamagic cost without limiting your self to a twice per day trick.

Also, to scale a Sorcerer/Martial Adept/JPM can cast a Smiting Storm/Scalding Touch and use Adamantine Hurricane to deal his melee damage, +9d6/+13d6 damage, plus a Save vs Stun/Dazed, with a +4 bonus to Attack Rolls, to each opponent within reach, and can hit them each of them twice. Then I suppose if you wanted to get into it some, Raging Mongoose can give you another two attacks against the main threat and if the user were a Necropoliton with a Greater Wounding Marrow Finding Lifedrinker each hit would deal 3 Con damage and 1 Negative Level which helps to prevent them from making their Save so they lose a turn and you can smack them some more with your triple threat of death. So steal some ideas here or something.

But, welcome addition either way.

@WW & reach:
I had the discussion on the other board too. I know it's cheesy (BSB prc), but that's how it works..
We have rules for "Reach Weapons", "Natural Reach due to Size" and for "Threatened Squares", but no special explanation of "reach" itself (= no keyword). So we fall back to default english definition of "reach" which covers that fine. Further anything that defines a reach weapon is given. So there is no room to complain by RAW. If you can find a clear definition of (just only!) "reach" in 3.5 that contradicts this, I would be happy to see it.
Another important indicator is, that the Thunderous Throw ability is especially limited to "end of your turn" and not the more regular/common used "end of turn". An ability/effect if only limited to end of your turn (a less used term) if they really need to limit you due to balance reasons. And that's the case here. Otherwise BSB would also threaten those squares too making it totally op. That's the reason (imho) why it is limited to "end of your turn".

@Recaster, Runestaff, Metamagic, Smiting Storm/Scalding Touch
First the build is optimized around Shivering Touch, which deals DEX dmg and not HP dmg. Most enemies have a Dex score of less than 20 which means that this build oneshots almost everything it hits with the ranged WW. No Save, No SR, just I win & all enemies in range lose. Other spells can't compete with Shivering Touch in this point/build.
Since Shivering Touch is not a Duskblade spell, I need to get it via Recaster (Wyrm Wizard would have been the other option for this). Recaster needs 2 metamagic feats to qualify. The Runestaffs would be just there to have more charges per day. Further for most enemies just maximize (18 DEX dmg) is enough to kill em and empower ain't needed at all.
And because we want to use Whirlwind (Full Attack) with our Arcane Channeling ability, we need 13 lvls of Duskbalde to do this.

The build is straight and has nor room for changes. But it accomplishes everything it has to imho. Sure it's a build that kick in on the later lvls, but it's a build that can still hold water even in most lvl 20 and 20+ campaigns. So there is a niche for it imho.

5
Duskblade 13 / Recaster 5 / Bloodstorm Blade 2

"Welcome to my 2nd build I would like to showcase (and backup^^) here"  :)

The idea to the build was born while I was working on my Hammerdin of Moradin build and still inherits some of the fluff that is related to Hammerdin build from the game Diablo (2/3) but ain't restricted to hammers thrown.

(click to show/hide)

As a thought-lesson I had the urge to make a build who is focused on the Arcane Channeling ability of the duskblade class.

The most recommend spell (as guides already suggest) seems to be Shivering Touch which we need to get via Recaster (since it ain't a duskblade spell).

To add more awesomeness we add Bloodstorm Blade 2 to get Trow Anything, the Returning ability and Thunderous Throw which lets our ranged attacks count as melee again. If we add Whirlwind Attack on top of it, we have finished the "Shivering Tornado of Death".

And don't forget to empower+maximize via Recaster for maximum fun.
23.25 Dex dmg (average 18 + 3d6/2) to everything in range of your Trow Anything + Thunderous Throw + Whirlwind Attack (range increment of 10ft x5 = 50ft range / with Far Shot active up to 100ft!; -2 to hit for each increment above 10/20ft).
Add a keen Falchion for increased crit range (since Ability dmg can crit  :D).

FUN FACT: It gets even more silly when you think about the fact that the "Shivering Tornado of Death" can distinguish between friend or foe thx due to Whirlwind Attack only targeting your opponents in reach! Muhahaha ah ha  :lol

The 2nd spell from Expanded Knowledge need to be "Heroics". Before entering Bloodstorm Blade, you need to cast it and give you Point Blank Shot. Once you entered the PrC you don't need to bother anymore with PBS and can use it for Far Shot to double your range (up to 100ft!) or something else you want (Imp. Initiative? or speed up your epic feat progression for Distant Shot?) or just ignore the spell.


Epic Feat progression:

> Far Shot
> Point Blank Shot (just needed as prerequisite for..)
> Distant Shot

With "Distant Shot", the build can hit anything it can see/spot without any penalty at all.

"There shall stand no enemy in my sight! Crumble and shiver to death!"


As always I hope for some feedback and response^^

6
After I got interested into BoB builds, Void Disciples 4th lvl ability did come into my mind and I started to google again and hit these 2 threads/builds.
You should have gotten a lot of Leadership & Void Disciple threads talking about PrC entry. *shrugs*

I searched for BoB + void disciple, not sole VD. That makes the difference. I know about other VD combos. But I was searching for BoB+VD sole at that moment.

- clones can use SLAs
Ehh... It never says that. I think last time I seen a debate like this someone was using the Warlock's entry to make a point and if you're reaching that far to make a point we might as well talk about how the Spell-Stitched Template says it gives the ability to cast spells. In the future, I'd treat it as a slippery slope. Something you can probably get away with in TO but since casting Silence as an SLA can meet Requirements for casting the spell Silence, I'd keep in mind that "cast spells" doesn't always synonymously mean "spellcasting".

First BoB says, that the clones can do everything you can do expect cast spells and have only nonmagic mundane stuff.

Second, the rule is that "SLAs may count as being able to cast a certain spell to meet requirements". This is "Specific Trumps General", but it doesn't become a general rule. General, those are 2 different things. And since BoB doesn't list SLAs in its exception part, the clones may use em. The spells description has nothing to do with requirements and thus the rule doesn't apply here.
You could argue about RAI, but since TO relies on RAW abuse, I guess this should be fine ;)


As said, you don't need Archmage to make it work
Something else to consider is a Psion with Psychic Reformation & Fission/Fusion. BoB can also be substituted with any other cloning trick, like the Core-Only Mirror of Opposition and Readied Dominate Monster if your Will Save sucks.
I still need to get more into 3.5 psionics. I even got the book since years, but somehow I didn't bother to take my time for it. But I'll remember this and will give it a look when it's time..^^

go for Dragonwrought Kobold. Being a normal dragon of age, qualifies you for epic feats)
The full statement is "Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels." and it never grants them the ability to use the Feat.

My favorite nitpick through is it doesn't actually give you the ability to take it. I mean I choose to take Improved Spell Capacity on every character at the first level. The rules don't let me actually take it, but it's still my number one choice.
I know what you mean, you still need to meet the other requirements like high ability/skill scores and stuff. For Improved Spell Capacity the requirement is to be able to cast the highest lvl spells available to your class, not character. That's why I have listed access to 9th lvl spells as requirement for the build ;) .
Further any ability score and skill rank requirement can be fulfilled with the help of Moment of Clarity. For ability scores you got the epic +1 feats and with them you can get unlimited skill ranks with MoC. Sure, getting "ALL" feats would get a bit iffy, but for the most of em it is not a real problem to meet the requirements.

__

Ty for your reply & your interest to read the entire build =)

7
Quote
Hello Min/Max Boards. I'm new here (fresh acc, but reading for a few years) and want to backup a few of my builds published on another board. Further I seek for feedback, so any comments are welcome =) This will be the first of the builds.
Note, that the text is only copy&paste. atm, but I way change it in future for better visibility and reading when I have time for it^^

(click to show/hide)

Hi everyone, I want to show you some refreshed old TO cheese I stepped upon a few days ago. The goal of this build(s) is(/are) to get near pun-puns power-level in 20 levels.

The cheese comes from the spell "Body outside Body" mainly. I spent the last week with tinkering cheese around the spell and googling for additional abuse information. I haven't played a wu-jen so far and didn't even know about the spell a week ago, but the abuse potential is so obvious, that it was just a matter of time until I got results.


This was the 1st thread about a Beholder Mage build relying on BoB cheese, which inspired
me to play a bit with BoB around myself.

LordofProcrastination's Dirty Tricks


After I got interested into BoB builds, Void Disciples 4th lvl ability did come into my mind and I started to google again and hit these 2 threads/builds.

Dolly-the-8-round-God
&
3-5-New-TO-abuses

Both builds rely on the use of Archmages SLA-garanting class ability. But imho you don't need this to get the cheese. You just need many BoB clones, the "Moment of Clarity" ability of Void Disciple to give temporary feats and access to 9th level spells to pull of the cheese.

"BoBaFeat" minimal requirements:

- able to cast "Body outside Body"(7th)
(click to show/hide)
- Void Disciple 4 ("Moment of Clarity" ability)
(click to show/hide)
- have 9th level spell-slots

This will lead to a build like this (lvl20 needed to hit 9th lvl spell access):
a) Wu Jen X / Void Disciple 4 / Yyyyy X
or if you don't want to be limited to Wu Jen Spell list
b) Wizard X / Void Disciple 4 / Wyrm Wizard 2 / Yyyyy X

This is much less restricting compared to the other builds. You have 9-11 levels where you can insert any class witch adds full casting progression for your base casting class. As said, you don't need Archmage to make it work and here is how the build works:


BoBaFeat LvL 20

(we take option b with the Wizard casting and go straight wizard for the remaining level, for a simple example)

1) cast "Body outside Body" (you maybe need to cast it 2 or 3 times to have enough clones for the start)
2) order 6 (or 3 of em twice) of your clones to give you "Improved Spell Capacity [Epic]" temporary with their "Moment of Clarity ability" . you have now a 15th level spellslot.
3) order other clones to give you Silent Spell, Still Spell, Quicken Spell and finally "Innate Spell: Body outside Body"

Now, you have "Body outside Body" at will and are set to break the game with your unlimited amount of Clones.

- unlimited amount of Clones
- use clones and repeat the process to give you all spells you know as SLA at WILL (!)
- since your clones only have a restriction of casting spells, they can use all Spells as SLA at Will now
- give you all feats (only ancestor feats are forbidden, EPIC NOT! if the DM argues that you need to be lvl 21, go for Dragonwrought Kobold. Being a normal dragon of age, qualifies you for epic feats)
- due to all feats, you get unlimited Stats (epic +1 feats)
- unlimited stats + Moment of Clarity = unlimited skill ranks (!) + unlimited stat bonus on any skill
- unlimited amount of Quicken Spells per round (due to unlimited Multispell epic feats)
- unlimited HP (HP feats & unlimited CON bonus)
- to increase the amount of cones per spell/SLA use, give yourself "Spell Stowaway: Body outside Body". now every time someone in 300feet range casts (or uses SLA) BoB, you and all clones in range get the effect for free. we have raised the clone production exponentially sereal times.

BoBaFeat can now produce enough clones to fill the multiverse in a blink of an eye. Each of em a demigod, obeying the only one and real BoBaFeat. I think he could befriend with pun-pun.


The question at the end is: What could you fill in the remaining plain wizard levels as mention above. Which PrC has full spellprogression and usefull (after having all feats) abilities to add to this build? Is there anything that would make a difference? One of the other threads/builds relies on Jade Phoenix Mage, which has some nice fluffy abilities, but nothing that really makes a difference imho. Any other ideas? (more Void Disciple for longer duration on Moment on Clarity would be a bit more efficient, but still not making any difference in power lvl)


I hope you enjoyed the BoBaFeat build and credits also go to the mentioned threads, pun-pun and their inspiration that lead to this thread. Feel free to comment and add your thoughts. I would appreciate it.

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Introduce Yourself / Hi Min/Max Boards
« on: August 13, 2017, 02:00:53 PM »
Hi Min/Max Boards.

I'm a D&D veteran playing since AD&D. I am reading this board for a longer time, but have been active on another board/site so far.
The reasons why I now decided to get active here too are that I seek more feedback for my builds and also as some sort of backup, since sometimes boards tend to die without warning^^. Since I got a few build which I seek to post, I'll post em one by one over several days/weeks. So I won't fold the board and I hope to get better/more feedback per build this way.

And since I have an account now, I guess I'll also join the discussion which I'm interested here when I got the time =)

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