Author Topic: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players  (Read 25177 times)

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2013, 11:05:21 PM »
I suck with working out weapons anyway, which may explain why I'm generally apathetic to them. >_>;

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2013, 08:12:45 AM »
I...really don't even know what to make, considering the weapons rules aren't even "finished."  Makes it kind of difficult.  Not sure I still want to play...  I tried thinking about a caster...I'm sick of having to put off playing noncasters because the game I'm looking to join is inhospitable to them.

If you have someone more enthusiastic, maybe they should take my spot.

This is why I want to use it actually: To get more testing done so I know what I should change. If needed, I can whip up a quick Simple/Martial reach weapon that would enable your earlier build design. I've been intending to include similar weapons in V1.2 since I do have some testplaying results, and that was something I thought was needed.
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2013, 11:03:46 AM »
This is why I want to use it actually: To get more testing done so I know what I should change. If needed, I can whip up a quick Simple/Martial reach weapon that would enable your earlier build design. I've been intending to include similar weapons in V1.2 since I do have some testplaying results, and that was something I thought was needed.

Well, it'd just be nice to...you know...be aware of what the rules are for my character before I make him.  I didn't realize that was asking for so much.

And while I'd certainly like more choices for weapons, I really am not terribly confident about how they'd turn out.  You said you did this to fix problems with weapons in D&D, but then admitted you both buffed the weaker options and nerfed the stronger ones, to the extent that nothing in your new set up is equal to what was possible before.  The extent is pretty drastic.  Just about any decent core weapon I can think of was nerfed in some way -- spiked chain (lower base damage; provokes when used!), lance (only x2 crit), whip (only 10 ft reach now, which makes the provoking thing much more painful), guisarme (only representation is a simple weapon w/ slightly inferior [1d8] damage and 1 augment slot), scythe (dropped all the way to x2 crit! ...is tripping now, but hardly the best weapon for that anyway), etc... -- that's pretty incredible.

Perhaps a parallel example would help....
Anyone who wants heavy armor will generally go for full plate if they are able to (monetarily, etc...), it's the best in its category.  NO ONE takes half-plate, because half plate just plain sucks.  So you decide to swoop in and buff half-plate a little and nerf full plate a little, such that they're both equal and somewhere between in power where they each were before.  On the surface, it may look like you've left everything balanced.  But...you're neglecting the fact that people (certainly ones on this forum...) don't pick the godawful horrible choices, in a game system explicitly designed to have trap options and "Timmy cards."  They take the good options.  So what you've actually done, is to nerf heavy armors.

And yeah.  Trying to balance weapons by restricting how many enhancements they can get, never mind by such a stupidly large range that one might be eligible for FIVE TIMES as many as another, is just a really bad idea.

I respect the desire to want to playtest stuff.  I've been very dismayed that not a single player opted for one of my custom classes in the game I'm running, I was hoping to see one of them in action.  And it would've been awesome to get to play my Capoeirista myself...but it's tier 4 at best (better than monk, at least) and your rules limited unarmed to only one augment (if you even allowed some footwear version of gauntlet) ever make that rather untenable.
But if you're going to write an entire manifesto -worth of houserules on something, it should at least have a significant impact, and for the better.  Your rules...seem to not change much, or even make them slightly worse.

Also, as a counter-point / something nice to say...  Your point buy allotment and rules buffing the str-boosting races do a great deal to help out MAD, str-based warriors, and took barely any text to even write, I quite like that.  They're basically the opposite of your weapon rules in those respects.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 11:07:59 AM by StreamOfTheSky »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2013, 11:20:10 AM »
So, Solo, want to have a fight to the death about who punches things?

I have never, never gotten around to playing a character that does that. Last one I made was for one of SirP's things, so... :lmao

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2013, 01:12:53 PM »
Hey Sinfire, how many players were you picking up here, again?

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2013, 01:18:31 PM »
This is why I want to use it actually: To get more testing done so I know what I should change. If needed, I can whip up a quick Simple/Martial reach weapon that would enable your earlier build design. I've been intending to include similar weapons in V1.2 since I do have some testplaying results, and that was something I thought was needed.

Well, it'd just be nice to...you know...be aware of what the rules are for my character before I make him.  I didn't realize that was asking for so much.

And while I'd certainly like more choices for weapons, I really am not terribly confident about how they'd turn out.  You said you did this to fix problems with weapons in D&D, but then admitted you both buffed the weaker options and nerfed the stronger ones, to the extent that nothing in your new set up is equal to what was possible before.  The extent is pretty drastic.  Just about any decent core weapon I can think of was nerfed in some way -- spiked chain (lower base damage; provokes when used!), lance (only x2 crit), whip (only 10 ft reach now, which makes the provoking thing much more painful), guisarme (only representation is a simple weapon w/ slightly inferior [1d8] damage and 1 augment slot), scythe (dropped all the way to x2 crit! ...is tripping now, but hardly the best weapon for that anyway), etc... -- that's pretty incredible.

Perhaps a parallel example would help....
Anyone who wants heavy armor will generally go for full plate if they are able to (monetarily, etc...), it's the best in its category.  NO ONE takes half-plate, because half plate just plain sucks.  So you decide to swoop in and buff half-plate a little and nerf full plate a little, such that they're both equal and somewhere between in power where they each were before.  On the surface, it may look like you've left everything balanced.  But...you're neglecting the fact that people (certainly ones on this forum...) don't pick the godawful horrible choices, in a game system explicitly designed to have trap options and "Timmy cards."  They take the good options.  So what you've actually done, is to nerf heavy armors.

And yeah.  Trying to balance weapons by restricting how many enhancements they can get, never mind by such a stupidly large range that one might be eligible for FIVE TIMES as many as another, is just a really bad idea.

I respect the desire to want to playtest stuff.  I've been very dismayed that not a single player opted for one of my custom classes in the game I'm running, I was hoping to see one of them in action.  And it would've been awesome to get to play my Capoeirista myself...but it's tier 4 at best (better than monk, at least) and your rules limited unarmed to only one augment (if you even allowed some footwear version of gauntlet) ever make that rather untenable.
But if you're going to write an entire manifesto -worth of houserules on something, it should at least have a significant impact, and for the better.  Your rules...seem to not change much, or even make them slightly worse.

Also, as a counter-point / something nice to say...  Your point buy allotment and rules buffing the str-boosting races do a great deal to help out MAD, str-based warriors, and took barely any text to even write, I quite like that.  They're basically the opposite of your weapon rules in those respects.

With regards to the nerfs, I didn't have as strong of an understanding of what melee needs as I do now. Things like the Spiked Chain nerf were because of how far above other exotic weapons it was, and I wasn't sure which way I should go with it (buffing exotic weapons in general or nerfing that thing; it ended up being a very awkward mix). Some things that were nerfed were not intended to be (take a look at the tables and you'll see that a lot of it is copy-pasta that I didn't edit properly, whereas the Glaive was a template-related nerf that wasn't intentional).

With regards to unarmed combat, the original idea I had was that anyone with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat would gain an augment slot for their actual unarmed strike, and anyone with Monk levels would gain additional ones for it. The idea never got finished, and as a result it looks like the style was nerfed without any explanation. Gauntlets were never intended to be used with Monks in my fix, as they wouldn't have needed it.

In fact, gauntlets were going to be moved into Shields when that fix was finished. I just haven't even started it yet, as I'm still on the pre-alpha Armor changes and the Weapons v1.2. It's funny that you mention the Plate/Halfplate, as both were upgraded (Plate provides a decent amount of DR and had a price cut, while Half-Plate got similar treatment and reduced ACP/Speed penalties).

Most of the fix was dedicated to making enhancing a weapon more interesting, and more affordable. Augments are a fraction of the price and special materials are cheaper (although not quite as useful as I wanted them to be). The mindset that went into the fix was Simple < Martial < Exotic, and I got so caught up in it that I overlooked the combat options for noncasters.

What I should have done was Simple (X fighting styles), Martial (Y fighting styles), Exotic (Either, but worth the feat investment).

Hey Sinfire, how many players were you picking up here, again?

[Sarcasm]You guys were going to play Russian Roulette to see who stays and who goes.[/Sarcasm]

I wanted 2, 3 at most.

@Solo: Upon thinking about it, I'm comfortable with you using Alter Self for combat but less-so for utility. I don't know the modules well enough to judge if the utility forms would allow you to trivialize the modules. That's what I'm going to have to look into.
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Offline VennDygrem

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2013, 01:30:33 PM »
Hmm, well if there ends up being another spot, would you consider FireintheSky's Sniper class? I've been eyeing it for a while and have seen a lot of people jumping on it for PbP games. If not, I've got plenty of non-homebrew ideas I could run with, such as a gnome Beguiler (with tentative plans to head toward Shadow craft Mage), or maybe a Changeling rogue, depending on if there's a fix in mind for the class.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 01:53:31 PM by VennDygrem »

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2013, 04:49:55 PM »
Hmm, well if there ends up being another spot, would you consider FireintheSky's Sniper class? I've been eyeing it for a while and have seen a lot of people jumping on it for PbP games. If not, I've got plenty of non-homebrew ideas I could run with, such as a gnome Beguiler (with tentative plans to head toward Shadow craft Mage), or maybe a Changeling rogue, depending on if there's a fix in mind for the class.

Looking at the Sniper, the only thing that concerns me is the fact that the Trick Shots have no listed actions for some of them. Namely Called Shot being able to one-round anything not immune to Criticals (as you can use it on every attack in a round, including AoOs granted by other abilities, then you start adding in Deadeye Shot). As to what to do with it, I genuinely don't know.

Also Martial Shot, as the only one of those disciplines I've read into is Falling Star (and it's incomplete). I'd allow the Sniper to 1) Get Martial Study as a bonus feat (picking from the existing 9) without it counting against the limit and 2) Allow the Sniper to use the maneuver learned through that feat with Ranged Attacks. This way I don't have to bring more outside homebrew into the game than I'm comfortable with.

@Stream of the Sky: If you are still interested, I am willing to allow your Battle Dancer fix. I've looked it over and see that it is relatively balanced (the chassis is identical to a Ranger, and I weighed the abilities of the class against the Ranger's class features and spells).
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Offline VennDygrem

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2013, 08:21:23 PM »
I'd be easily willing to get your ok on any trick shots I'd plan on using, as I probably wouldn't be going in to the class with as much forethought as some classes necessitate.

On actions, I think they're meant to be swapped into a normal attack routine on the fly, limited by the fact that many if not most of the abilities have limited uses per encounter, so it pays to be careful how many attacks you use any one option on. I could easily see making the Sniper use a swift action to activate certain trick shots (those that have limited number of uses), or switching them from uses/encounter to uses/day instead. The idea behind the trick shots seems to be more about cherry-picking class features to come up with a customized build. Most Sniper builds will likely have a lot of the same Trick Shots, though some will come at different levels and some may be left out entirely.

As for Called Shot, there is that limited number of uses per encounter. If you use it on all attacks, you're likely to exhaust your uses really quickly until later levels, and even then the highest I could see the wis mod getting is about +10 if a decent amount of resources are expended on it. This is still ridiculous, especially given that there are plenty of abilities which trigger off of critical hits. I'd say change the auto-crit to something else, or else change the ability to a number of times per day. Frankly, I would not so much as blink if this trick shot were ignored/banned, because it's definitely a bit broken. I'd actually prefer swapping it out with a Trick Shot that gives you the Trapfinding of a Rogue. Might seem a bit subpar for a trick shot, but could definitely come in real handy in a lot of campaigns.

I'm not sure if I'd take Martial Shot or not (given that it does nothing to offset a low initiator level), though your terms on Discipline limits and such are fine by me. There might be some very interesting options, though again, there are a lot of options already in the other trick shots.

A big reason I thought of going with this is that of the existing characters being talked about, I'm not really hearing anyone with much in the way of ranged capabilities aside from the DfA, and that's a bit limited in range as well. Plus, playing a cooler version of Hawkeye could be nice. :cool

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2013, 08:30:47 PM »
@Stream of the Sky: If you are still interested, I am willing to allow your Battle Dancer fix. I've looked it over and see that it is relatively balanced (the chassis is identical to a Ranger, and I weighed the abilities of the class against the Ranger's class features and spells).

Alright, well I'd like to ask some questions...

Since my Battle Dancer fix uses monk AC and unarmed strike progression, would it also benefit from the light armor use and augment slots you mentioned in the quick monk patch?  Were those bonus augment slots on top of a base 1 you get by default?  What's the exact breakdown level-by-level of what amount of augments unarmed strike can have?  How long do you have to wait to get the same 5 "slots" that (some) manufactured weapons had since level 1?

Would I be able to get a kicking-based weapon like the gauntlet is for punching?  A bladed boot or something, perhaps?  Even if you didn't "intend" gauntlets to be used by monks, they serve important roles for an unarmed attacker.  Like overcoming material-based damage reduction (silver, cold iron, adamantine)...

Would you allow Goliath's Powerful Build to treat unarmed damage as if a Large creature?  By RAW, it just lets you use large weapons.

How would you adjust the Wood Elf race (MM 1; +2 Str/Dex, -2 Con/Int)?  I don't know of any Str/Cha races, so I guess I'd be picking between Goliath, Orc, or Wood Elf.

If Solo does monk, maybe having two unarmed characters is a bad idea.  Or really amusing.  Probably both.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 08:34:44 PM by StreamOfTheSky »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2013, 08:35:32 PM »
Could be worse. I could go for unarmed as well. Complete split between magic and DEATH BY BODIES. :lmao

At least that's unlikely as the relevant thing I'd most want to use that with probably wouldn't sit well. XD

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2013, 08:38:28 PM »
Could be worse. I could go for unarmed as well. Complete split between magic and DEATH BY BODIES. :lmao

At least that's unlikely as the relevant thing I'd most want to use that with probably wouldn't sit well. XD

Solo could do Monk, I could do Capoeirista, and you could do Unarmed Swordsage?  We'd be like the three musketeers...without the muskets.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2013, 08:42:29 PM »
@Stream of the Sky: If you are still interested, I am willing to allow your Battle Dancer fix. I've looked it over and see that it is relatively balanced (the chassis is identical to a Ranger, and I weighed the abilities of the class against the Ranger's class features and spells).

Alright, well I'd like to ask some questions...

Since my Battle Dancer fix uses monk AC and unarmed strike progression, would it also benefit from the light armor use and augment slots you mentioned in the quick monk patch?

Yes.

Quote
Would I be able to get a kicking-based weapon like the gauntlet is for punching?  A bladed boot or something, perhaps?  Even if you didn't "intend" gauntlets to be used by monks, they serve important roles for an unarmed attacker.  Like overcoming material-based damage reduction (silver, cold iron, adamantine)...

One of the augments you can get allows you to overcome all DR.

Quote
Would you allow Goliath's Powerful Build to treat unarmed damage as if a Large creature?  By RAW, it just lets you use large weapons.

Yes.

Quote
How would you adjust the Wood Elf race (MM 1; +2 Str/Dex, -2 Con/Int)?  I don't know of any Str/Cha races, so I guess I'd be
picking between Goliath, Orc, or Wood Elf.

Gimme some time on that one, as I'm not sure (on the bright side, you could easily have some important social connections as an Elf).

Quote
If Solo does monk, maybe having two unarmed characters is a bad idea.  Or really amusing.  Probably both.

This much is true. The overlap may cause problems. On the bright side low-level Combat encounters are going to die horribly once the DFA debuffs them.

I'd be easily willing to get your ok on any trick shots I'd plan on using, as I probably wouldn't be going in to the class with as much forethought as some classes necessitate.

On actions, I think they're meant to be swapped into a normal attack routine on the fly, limited by the fact that many if not most of the abilities have limited uses per encounter, so it pays to be careful how many attacks you use any one option on. I could easily see making the Sniper use a swift action to activate certain trick shots (those that have limited number of uses), or switching them from uses/encounter to uses/day instead. The idea behind the trick shots seems to be more about cherry-picking class features to come up with a customized build. Most Sniper builds will likely have a lot of the same Trick Shots, though some will come at different levels and some may be left out entirely.

True.

Quote
As for Called Shot, there is that limited number of uses per encounter. If you use it on all attacks, you're likely to exhaust your uses really quickly until later levels, and even then the highest I could see the wis mod getting is about +10 if a decent amount of resources are expended on it. This is still ridiculous, especially given that there are plenty of abilities which trigger off of critical hits. I'd say change the auto-crit to something else, or else change the ability to a number of times per day. Frankly, I would not so much as blink if this trick shot were ignored/banned, because it's definitely a bit broken. I'd actually prefer swapping it out with a Trick Shot that gives you the Trapfinding of a Rogue. Might seem a bit subpar for a trick shot, but could definitely come in real handy in a lot of campaigns.

10/Encounter is still enough to one-round a pair of enemies, provided you use the right setup. I'd allow you to sub out a Trick Shot for Trapfinding (as an ACF, replacing the first instance of Trick Shot).

Quote
I'm not sure if I'd take Martial Shot or not (given that it does nothing to offset a low initiator level), though your terms on Discipline limits and such are fine by me. There might be some very interesting options, though again, there are a lot of options already in the other trick shots.

I was mentioning it for Foehammer/Mountain Hammer, as you won't be able to overcome DR that quickly (although I realized I'd have to allow you to count your full class level as your IL). Ranged combatants have as much trouble overcoming it as unarmed ones.

Quote
A big reason I thought of going with this is that of the existing characters being talked about, I'm not really hearing anyone with much in the way of ranged capabilities aside from the DfA, and that's a bit limited in range as well. Plus, playing a cooler version of Hawkeye could be nice. :cool

Good point. The guy wanting to play an Incarnate was thinking about being LN, which means another melee.
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2013, 08:59:11 PM »
I'll have to look at the augments more later...

Is getting an amulet of mighty fists with magical properties still an option, along with the augments?  Or are augments replacing it?

As far as your skill rules... you say if you have one of the skills in the brackets, you have the new skill.  You list *all* knowledges and martial lore within a single skill (Lore).  Do you still take Lore ranks individually for each subcategory, or is it one singular giant skill now?  Also, why do some of the skills have asterisks next to them?  And when a skill says "Dex/Con" or whatever, I assume that means you can use either of those modifiers on it?
EDIT: How do your skill rules work with synergy bonuses?  Is there a reason Inspect is Wis-only, when 2 of its 3 skills are Int-based originally?

And have you considered/tried making a named server, rather than direct connect?  I don't know if it will help; all I know is I currently can connect to a named server for a different game, and the one I create for my game also works.  But I could not get your IP connect to work.  Maybe something else was wrong, I don't know.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 09:19:59 PM by StreamOfTheSky »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2013, 09:05:43 PM »
Could be worse. I could go for unarmed as well. Complete split between magic and DEATH BY BODIES. :lmao

At least that's unlikely as the relevant thing I'd most want to use that with probably wouldn't sit well. XD

Solo could do Monk, I could do Capoeirista, and you could do Unarmed Swordsage?  We'd be like the three musketeers...without the muskets.

This is the only thing that could tempt me to use unarmed right now, so it's incredibly unlikely.

... I want to use the meteor hammer in that PDF just because it's a damn meteor hammer. I should probably not pick weapons based on what seems most visually awesome.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2013, 09:27:35 PM »
This is the only thing that could tempt me to use unarmed right now, so it's incredibly unlikely.

Holy crap, just skimming that for a few minutes I already found it gets Dominate Monster as a FIFTH level maneuver!  Granted the duration is only "still long enough to auto-win the encounter," rather than day/level, but wtf?!  :o

Offline VennDygrem

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2013, 09:42:16 PM »
Well, there's a disclaimer for all of the classes in that subforum that they're balanced at a much higher level than standard classes are. If I were running a game, I'd only allow one of those classes if the other player characters were in roughly that power level.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2013, 09:47:37 PM »
I've only ever paid it much heed up to fourth level.

... since that's as high as you get at level 8. I recall getting a knowledge check that sort of hovered around 40 something for everything.

I really don't get why Os builds 'overcome immunities' into everything. What logic is there in being able to dominate literally anything, even mindless stuff, for 4 rounds at level 13? @_@
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 09:49:37 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2013, 06:19:23 AM »
This is the only thing that could tempt me to use unarmed right now, so it's incredibly unlikely.

Holy crap, just skimming that for a few minutes I already found it gets Dominate Monster as a FIFTH level maneuver!  Granted the duration is only "still long enough to auto-win the encounter," rather than day/level, but wtf?!  :o
Well, Dominate Person is a 5th level spell, and I don't see why it should be that much harder to dominate nonpeople. And this is a fullround action to use (instead of standard) and you still have to suceed at Cha checks to make them do stuff they don't want (while the class and school are Int based).

Also the whole school has some strict weapon restrictions meaning you don't get to go around with defending eager armor spikes among others.

But yeah, I do my homebrew with higher levels of power in mind that average. :P

I really don't get why Os builds 'overcome immunities' into everything. What logic is there in being able to dominate literally anything, even mindless stuff, for 4 rounds at level 13? @_@
Because I've played my fair bit of high level D&D.

And by the gods, it is annoying how everything eventually becomes immune to everything except obscure effects that don't have any specific keyword.

(also clerics were dominating mindless undeads back at level 1 as a secondary class feature).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 06:23:46 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: May be starting a Maptools game, possibly need players
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2013, 09:16:40 AM »
I really don't get why Os builds 'overcome immunities' into everything. What logic is there in being able to dominate literally anything, even mindless stuff, for 4 rounds at level 13? @_@
Because I've played my fair bit of high level D&D.

And by the gods, it is annoying how everything eventually becomes immune to everything except obscure effects that don't have any specific keyword.

(also clerics were dominating mindless undeads back at level 1 as a secondary class feature).

Going completely in the opposite direction doesn't seem like the best improvement.

Yes, dominating mindless undead... a very limited number of times per day, using a stat that isn't otherwise much use to them, with a resource that will soon get used for other stuff, and restricted to one type of enemy. :p