Author Topic: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew  (Read 5956 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« on: December 31, 2015, 11:58:55 PM »


The background
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The 'brew:
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Clearly NG is the most "traditional" path and I'm open to ideas on the dead/unnamed ability levels. Please post what you can do with this class. Is it as powerful as a wizard? As hard to CO? As flexible? Does it feel too much like a warlock with items or too much like a StP Erudite with every trick in the book? Demonstrate below vis a vis another Tier 1 class!

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2016, 04:32:02 PM »
Solo, any comment on this ?
 :D

Black   Evil Antimages


What do you mean by "Neutral Alignment" vs. "Neutral Ethos" ?
Does "Neutral Alignment" mean True Neutrals only ?
Can a Neutral Good dude (as a for instance) pick both "Neutral Alignment" AND "Neutral Ethos" ?
 :)  :???
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2016, 08:57:59 PM »
Why is half-made homebrew in the Min/Max section?

Fast and simple (off a half read through).
* Of the nine possible alignments on the two axis scale with five entries PMBC created six mages types. ...Try not to think about that.
* Red Mages are anyspell casters, they can learn any spell/power printed making them a lesser Erudite. ...Just play an Erudite.
* Time Gray Mages are anyclass generics, but weaker than multiclassing. ...At least a real level of Bard gives Spellcasting.
* Purple Mages are mimes themed fitted with SR/Dispel-themes & Equipmentspellbuffs? ...Totally replaced by most Classes.
* White Mages let you stack Feats but have no healing to live up to their namesake. ...They also suck.
* Blue Mages are pretty much copypasta from my homebrew but no Spells and nerfed ability copy. ...I thought the goal was 1st Tier not 5th?
* Black Mages are Gray Mages on crack, just choose all the 10th level PrC problems if you can wrap your head around the math for it.
* Green Mages don't appear at all. ...Just saying if you want to round off the Alignment options...
* Summoners also don't appear either. ...Through I'd just trim the fat of the current list...
* Necromancy/Forbidden/Dark Mages were also left out. ...And get them working before trying to add anything.

Hmm...
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« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 10:42:06 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2016, 08:30:39 AM »
Why is half-made homebrew in the Min/Max section?

Agreed. This should be in Homebrew.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2016, 11:39:15 AM »
Feel free to move it. I'm looking for 'zomg even without heavy casting you can do...' or 'wizard still does it better' responses.

"Neutral Ethos" ?
Does "Neutral Alignment" mean True Neutrals only ?
Hmm 3e doesn't name the axis that Neutral Evil, True Neutral, and Neutral Good all share. That's odd. I thought it was called 'ethos' in 2e. Maybe samwise can tell us.

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Can a Neutral Good dude (as a for instance) pick both "Neutral Alignment" AND "Neutral Ethos" ?
In your example Neutral Good is not of neutral alignment, only neutral ethos (see above). So an NG would chose the neutral ethos (gray) and good alignment (white) abilities.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2016, 12:14:12 PM »
Actual response deserves separate post.
* Of the nine possible alignments on the two axis scale with five entries PMBC created six mages types. ...Try not to think about that.
* Red Mages are anyspell casters, they can learn any spell/power printed making them a lesser Erudite. ...Just play an Erudite.
* Time Gray Mages are anyclass generics, but weaker than multiclassing. ...At least a real level of Bard gives Spellcasting.
* Purple Mages are mimes themed fitted with SR/Dispel-themes & Equipmentspellbuffs? ...Totally replaced by most Classes.
* White Mages let you stack Feats but have no healing to live up to their namesake. ...They also suck.
* Blue Mages are pretty much copypasta from my homebrew but no Spells and nerfed ability copy. ...I thought the goal was 1st Tier not 5th?
* Black Mages are Gray Mages on crack, just choose all the 10th level PrC problems if you can wrap your head around the math for it.
* Green Mages don't appear at all. ...Just saying if you want to round off the Alignment options...
* Summoners also don't appear either. ...Through I'd just trim the fat of the current list...
* Necromancy/Forbidden/Dark Mages were also left out. ...And get them working before trying to add anything.
* 5 entries? I count 6 everywhere: 1 Red, 2 Grey, 3 Purple, 4 White, 5 Blue, 6 Black.I assume an FFV Farris going red/black mage (role played as CE) just blows your mind, huh? Perhaps thinking on it would have been a good idea :)
* Erudites have 232 powers even if their list is split. Their power is in their options, unlike the above red mage.
* The gray mage discussion is relevant here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16931 I consider this powerful, so I'm glad if others don't.
* 0.o are there other classes that use their items in AMFs? I searched high and low outside the 'brew for that.
* I'm all ears for a 'goody' themed thing to fill that slot. Or some names. Keep in mind that the class was designed for synergy. If an xG antimage only got the white mage abilties, you are quite correct that it would be insufficient.
* No...? Yours has spells and is limited to 6 special abilities. There are also none of the above restrictions, only your comment of "don't break the class". You've got a class with set abilties (mettle, evasion, etc). The above is instead more or less a creature ability list designed to be supplemented with actual class abilities.
* Yeah that's about right. Characters who take PrCs have base classes on crack ... if you can fit them into the build. The restrictions to fitting them though, prove to be a challenge.
* Green mages would be which point on the alignment/ethos axes? Care to show me a sprite and a place that names them "green" ? And yes the whole point of the class is that purple (what happens when you mix red and blue kids?) mages don't exist because FF is a high-magic DnD spinoff that doesn't do antimagic justice.
* Summoners are basically black mages on crack. Care to show sprites/colors of Necromancy/Forbidden/Dark Mages?

Concerning the "Hmm": that's the spirit! However, you forgot about some of the restrictions. Firstly each PrC level that you want to take, ... takes up a level. So for 2 of a PrC's abilities, you have to use up 2 ECL on that PrC (rather than 1). Without re-reading, I'm pretty sure that's what the 'brew lists. Secondly Warblade a base class, not a PrC. Maybe you meant to type something else.

Other than that you've got an ECL 20 build with some decent abilities (see my compendium for how to balance 3e a la spelldancing, 9th level spells, etc). You assumed a handful of redmage SLAs, but you don't need to list them out since I'm well aware of what that side of class can do.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2016, 12:30:46 PM »
Let me better explain how I cam to the little comments there.

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The rest was just trying to fill out your Alignment deal (see above), like why not a Lawful Alignment and a Lawful Ethos:P

Edit - And in hindsight, too much text >.>
Edit 2 - Minor tangent.
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« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 03:19:45 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Garryl

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2016, 05:07:51 PM »
Why is this all lumped together as one class? The six different versions share only the chassis (HD, BAB, saves), skills, and illiteracy. They really should be six distinct classes.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2016, 01:06:34 AM »
Because that's basically what Tier 1's are: multiple highly customizable lists of immense power. Splitting up the class would put the class into the tier 3 range.

You counted Neutral twice by separating it into Alignment & Ethos.
Because they are very different. CN's share a vastly different kind of neutrality than NG's.
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Can I be a Chaotic Evil Alignment & Neutral Ethos?
No because chaotic is an ethos, not an alignment. If you are CE then your alignment is evil and your ethos is chaotic. So if you want to be both chaotic ethos and neutral ethos, you'll have to make up your mind. Most players use the "leaning" phrase to explain CE characters than have neutral alignment or neutral ethos tendencies. For example a NG who is almost LG is leaning lawful.
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How about a Chaotic Evil Alignment & Lawful Good Ethos?
well which is it? CE or LG? This sounds like a player who couldn't make up her mind about which of the 9 ethos/alignment combinations to play.
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And if Ethos & Alignment are the same, why are there two Neutrals?
They are very different as I mentioned above. You've played and DM'd D&D right? NE's are very different from LN's...
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Like I said, try not to think about it. It's currently pretty nonsensical and needs some clean up.
You seem to be confused about the 9 alignments in general. Perhaps some reading would help clear up these two axes for you. This is kinda basic D&D stuff...
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RM is in every single way weak... if you cannot use CC/Summon/Immunity/SoDs/SoSs and any uncapped or Alignment-Subtyped Spell?
You're over stating things: SoS is in as are SoD's. Only immunity to attacks, damage and magic are out. I've never seen a player actually bring a "immune to hp damage" build to play before. These combos become highly likely as the book-diving increases, though. Otherwise, I'm okay with the limitations. There are many, many spells, and they still offer power outside of those overtly 'caster-ish' things. And wings of flurry don't get me going, so I just shrug on that.
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Trapfinding, Trap Sense +1, and Sneak Attack twice. That'd take four levels of Gray Mage to match so it's already failing to keep up with the Rogue.
Yes it's bad at recreating straight classed PCs. Most people find those builds underwhelming. Instead it is good at dipping monstrosities that most people consider ... of the more powerful persuasion. It's higher-tiered, but I'm happy with said balancing act.
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Shadowweave items even ignore Dead Magic Zones.
I could dig, but I seem to remember large restrictions on those. Care to cite/enlighten me?
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+1 Enhancement Bonuses
not the point. Seems like the +1 to x fighter mentality to me :)
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a caster can simply make them selves immune to their own AMF (spellguard ring, extraordinary spell aim, selective spell, etc) which is kind of the same thing, except well they are actually a Spellcaster and anyone next to them isn't.
Until another caster uses an AMF that isn't made by said mystra cleric.
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you can't count on a person to multiclass to fix a Class
Agreed. I'm not expecting multiclassing out. I even thought I had a prohibition against it or atleast for coming back into the class a la monk or paladin. Oh well. The class is most powerful when adding continuous levels anyway. I was previously referring to the fact that no character has just an ethos without an alignment: aka you can't be "just" chaotic. You are always going to be either C+G C+N or C+E. There is no place on the 9 alignment chart that says C + nullset. After all there are TWO axes.
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And yours has no Class Features outside of a massively limited, and permanently chosen, Special Ability Quality-only steal.
Good catch on the special ability in addition to the special qualities. I forgot to add that in on the first line. You'll notice they are referenced in examples. So yeah, offense too, etc.
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has spellcasting
You really like spellcasting ... for an antimage. A blue mage's chose of monster stealingz is their "casting" list.
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a Psion with a Mindfeeder Scythe
Without telekenesis abuse, you're comparing an unkillable illithid savant to a d4 class that "only upon scoring a successful critical hit. Once per day" gets some spell slots back for 10 minutes if they confirm a hit in melee.
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has to keep up is the sustainability through recasting
No one actually plays casters within infinite spells / pp. That's TO. I'm not trying to keep up with spell matrix abusers, etc.
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what does it have to keep up with an optimized Cleric or Wizard?
Almost anything cool a monster has ever had. It's like a druid diving through a monster manual, but on crack :)
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the paperwork on it is fairly extensive and you'll just use it as a dip before obtaining Spells anyway
A CE antimage has spells... You know, because he's both evil and chaotic... You must have been tired when you wrote this. I know you know characters can be simultaneously chaotic and evil.

And I totally agree with you about the bard part. See my Final Fantasy as D&D adaptation for some (low tier) old school flavor

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2016, 12:22:46 PM »
Oh so it's not just Soro who doesn't get it. I would have thought aDMg would used his DC15 wisdom check to gain direct knowledge and figure it out. Hmm is terminology so hard? Whatever you do, don't take an upper mathematics class simultaneously with a linguistics class. You'll expect everyone else to follow basic terms. I hope the extra half an hour I spent listing every little possibility was worth it...

What do you mean by "Neutral Alignment" vs. "Neutral Ethos" ?
How about a pretty picture?

What do you call the X axis? What do you call the Y axis? I call them ethos and alignment, respectively. Call them whatever you want (it is arbitrary), but I am calling them by the correct, traditional D&D names, if I recall correctly. It's been a while since I've even looked at old school D&D. But you can't call them both the same name, or that would imply that X=Y. This is not the case for most of the combinations. Therefore, you have to call them different names.

Now to really spell it out for anyone who isn't insulted by the pedantry yet: Let's assign positive X as lawful and negative X as chaotic. Let's assign positive Y as good and negative Y as evil. A non-positive and non-negative value implies neutrality. Since there are two different axes, there are two different kinds of neutrality.

Specifically, in the picture:
LG = (1,1) = Lawful ethos and Good alignment
CG = (-1,1) = Chaotic ethos and Good alignment
LE = (1,-1) = Lawful ethos and Evil alignment
CE = (-1,-1) = Chaotic ethos and Evil alignment
LN = (1,0) = Lawful ethos and Neutral alignment
CN = (1,0) = Chaotic ethos and Neutral alignment
NG = (0,1) = Neutral ethos and Good alignment
NN, aka True Neutral = (0,0) = Neutral ethos and Neutral alignment
NE = (0,-1) =  Neutral ethos and evil alignment

Now if you don't get it, I can't help you. Take a full year algebra and then come back to look at the above very, very simple graph.

Can a Neutral Good dude (as a for instance) pick both "Neutral Alignment" AND "Neutral Ethos" ?
Yes. He is both, after all.

Offline Samwise

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2016, 01:00:32 PM »
I call them ethos and alignment, respectively. Call them whatever you want (it is arbitrary), but I am calling them by the correct, traditional D&D names, if I recall correctly. It's been a while since I've even looked at old school D&D.

I understand what you meant, but you aren't recalling correctly. (Not that I was 100% certain either; I went and looked them up to be sure.)

In AD&D, "ethos" referred to belief systems in general, while "alignment" referred to the 9 specific combinations, each of which defined a particular "ethos".
They axes were given the names "ethics" for Law-Chaos axis and "morality" for the Good-Evil axis in revised AD&D (2nd edition).

Thus:

"Neutral ethics is not the same as Neutral morality.
Not caring, or not being willing to choose, between whether social order and organization of the multiverse is superior to personal whim and disorganization of the multiverse is a completely different mindset between not caring, or not being willing to choose, between whether all life is matters and has a right to live that should be respected as much as possible is superior to denying any inherent right to live of all living creatures, particularly if they become inconvenient to your desires.
A creature cannot express two different ethics, such as being Lawful Chaotic, or two different moralities, such as Evil Good, at the same time without being completely insane.
The Neutral components in alignments like Neutral Good compared to Chaotic Neutral thus represent two distinct characteristics that are represented by different mechanical effects."

Offline Amechra

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2016, 01:03:11 PM »
Actually, the proper terms are "neutral on the ethical axis" (Law-Chaos) and "neutral on the moral axis" (Good-Evil). Not "neutral ethos" and "neutral alignment".

EDIT: Swordsage'd by Samwise.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline Garryl

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2016, 01:07:15 PM »
Wait, so you get two paths, one for each axis of your alignment? So a Lawful Good character would get both the White Mage and the Blue Mage class features?

Oh so it's not just Soro who doesn't get it. I would have thought aDMg would used his DC15 wisdom check to gain direct knowledge and figure it out. Hmm is terminology so hard? Whatever you do, don't take an upper mathematics class simultaneously with a linguistics class. You'll expect everyone else to follow basic terms. I hope the extra half an hour I spent listing every little possibility was worth it...

You do have to actually explain the terms you use somewhere, especially when you're using them to mean something different from what they mean in a more general context. In this case, you're using "alignment" to refer to the good-evil axis of D&D alignment, with "ethos" referring to the lawful-chaotic axis. Normally, they're both just called "alignment" in 3rd edition.


Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2016, 02:36:21 PM »
They axes were given the names "ethics" for Law-Chaos axis
Okay so its ethics not ethos. I was off by 1 or 2 letters. I remember confusing non-D&D players when explaining the axes: they kept thinking of the word "ethics" as entire systems of actions a la Kant. It got in the way of what should have been a pedagogical tool. The times I'd slip and say the similar word "ethos," not such problems were encountered.

I think this was because the word ethos is actually a better fit for the meaning, "the character or disposition of a community, group, person, etc." vs "a complex of moral precepts held or rules of conduct followed by an individual"

Still though, in the context we have above, the words are almost exactly the same. I see a little bit of confusion because the D&D buzzword for alignment is ambiguous, but it was pretty obvious that I was using the term in a more specific way. I'm a little surprised that we had to drag Samwise in here before anyone realized what was up...

Wait, so you get two paths, one for each axis of your alignment? So a Lawful Good character would get both the White Mage and the Blue Mage class features?
Of course. I listed abilities for Lawful characters. If you are lawful, you get those. I listed abilities for Good characters. If you are good, you get those. Ahem
Can a Neutral Good dude (as a for instance) pick both "Neutral Alignment" AND "Neutral Ethos" ?
Yes. He is both, after all.

Offline Solo

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2016, 04:44:26 PM »
Solo, any comment on this ?
 :D
I am firmly behind this idea, because that is the best way to stab it in the back.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2016, 02:46:02 PM »
So the good news is I think I got this ethos stuff figured out.  :cool

You must have been tired when you wrote this. I know you know characters can be simultaneously chaotic and evil.
I'm exhausted all the time but it's not in my range of normal to forget about CE  :P
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 02:50:59 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Enjoy Breaking PBMCs Tier1 Antimage Homebrew
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2016, 06:54:13 PM »
I added 1028 characters to finish 4 sections in "this half-made homebrew" as Soro put it. For reference the total characters added is 2.5% of the total. To me things under 68% are an F. I wonder if 97.5% is an F rather than an A for him...

I find it odd that no one's put forth a build to use the class effectively. I expected, "This class is too powerful because a CN antimage is almost a x1/y2/z3/w4/.../g20 build all in one build with the following 50 spells from dozens of lists!" At that point I would say "With some hefty restrictions, yes. It's the usual tier 1 power for bookkeeping trade-off." Soro tried, but after clearing up a fair number of misconceptions, the best i see is 'go black mage'

Maybe the class is intimidating. It is basically a "you have the choice of everything in D&D. Have fun conglomerating it, subject to my attempts at balance." It's an ambitious goal, to be sure. Of course imposing balance isn't possible in TO (grab a candle of wishes!) and is moot in CO unless you're playing fully fixed D&D (the fact that this class could multipounce probably better than any 20th level build doesn't make the build overpowered since multipouncing is overpowered to begin with).

Perhaps I should put more effort into making it clear. Excel doesn't always translate into boards posts. I'm open to suggestions as well as an attempt to break it. Otherwise I'm going to assume that an SRD-only game would be fine adding the class. Of course, the party would have to be Wizard, Cleric, and Druid, but still.