Author Topic: The monk who couldn't decide.  (Read 13012 times)

Offline Nytemare3701

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The monk who couldn't decide.
« on: August 04, 2013, 01:51:17 AM »
Martial Monk 6/Cleric 1/Pugilist Fighter 2/Feat Rogue 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Bear Totem Barbarian 2/PsyWar PrC X

Required Stats: 15 Str, 15 Dex, 13 Int, 19 Wis

Required Feats:
(click to show/hide)


Why the hell am I doing this? I felt like activating ALL of the Martial Arts from OA/Dragon.
Totals of Feats AND Martial Art synergy
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Houserules: Pathfinder feat progression, antifeats are being used (together this means I have a feat at every level), pathfinder skills (-3 to all skill requirements or count the class skill +3 as ranks. Either way works)

Most of the work is going to be in finding the optimal order to take the feats in. Any ideas on how to make that easier?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 07:17:23 PM by Nytemare3701 »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 05:46:01 PM »
I've wondered a detail about Monks for a while.
An Erudite can dip Psion 1, even though Erudite is a variant Psion.

If you accept (or it passes debate) this rule/logic, Then
"Martial Monk" could also go "Some other enough Monk".

So like Martial Monk 2 / Core Monk 2 with Kalashtar 2nd level racial sub.
That might reduce the need for a specific Psi feat chain via PsyWar 2.
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Offline Kerrus

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 09:45:15 PM »
I don't think it can, save with DM fiat- the intro sentence for the Erudite is "An alternative to the standard psion class"- but that's all the text says on it.

But that should be enough, unless you mean to say that a Mystic Ranger can take levels in Ranger, despite being an alternative ranger variant.

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 10:00:52 PM »
Unearthed Arcana pg48 has this to say about multiclassing between variants of the same class.

(click to show/hide)

This is talking about the UA variants, not the Martial Monk specifically, so YMMV on whether it applies.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2013, 05:21:30 PM »
An Erudite can dip Psion 1, even though Erudite is a variant Psion.
Rules quote?

Uh-oh getting called on to PLZ's carpet ...  :)
Why do I think such heretical things with such (nee temporary) certainty?

Assume I'm wrong ... (where the F did I put that)
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2013, 05:32:07 PM »
Oh there we go.

Unearthed Arcana pg48 has this to say about multiclassing between variants of the same class.

(A) ... Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject,
Tricky!

Quote
(B) ... and the DM has to make rulings based on what is appropriate for his campaign.
Lenient DM please ...  ;)

Quote
[In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can’t multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards).
Very well defined.

Quote
For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger— multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate)

OK now I'm just confused as to what constitutes
on one hand:  "variety of paths" and "different versions" like specialist wizards ;
on the other hand:  "bardic sage" and "urban ranger".

Quote
This is talking about the UA variants, not the Martial Monk specifically, so YMMV on whether it applies.

Oh boy I prolly shouldn't have opened these cans of worms.
Feels kinda Potayto - Potahto.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2013, 06:55:52 PM »
Basically class variations and multiclassing is another place WotC has no idea what the hell they're talking about.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2013, 04:48:02 PM »
sry Nightmare for the tangent;
anyway interesting in a Monk sort of way.
Kinda like a Marvel No Prize ...  ;)
Does this have to do with a current GitP contest?


'Course the effect of an Erudite dipping Psion 1
or vice versa, is less than dipping PsyWar 1.
But yeah I could see some things getting out of hand.

"Adjective Monk" vs. "Noun Monk" compound word
vs. Title "(not Monk) Monk" ... and a dictionary debate.
eww I don' wanna

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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2013, 11:06:40 PM »
sry Nightmare for the tangent;
anyway interesting in a Monk sort of way.
Kinda like a Marvel No Prize ...  ;)
Does this have to do with a current GitP contest?


'Course the effect of an Erudite dipping Psion 1
or vice versa, is less than dipping PsyWar 1.
But yeah I could see some things getting out of hand.

"Adjective Monk" vs. "Noun Monk" compound word
vs. Title "(not Monk) Monk" ... and a dictionary debate.
eww I don' wanna

Not aware of anything going on in GiTP (I don't go there unless linked).

I'm going to spend some time on this tonight, getting the passive/active effects from the feats themselves statted out. This should be amusing to say the least.

EDIT: Notable highlights include a ton of trip bonuses (+1 Size Category, +4 passive, and HALF YOUR HD), +8 to Grapples, and a really nice suite of defensive bonuses (saves, Initiative, AC, HP, and DR)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 01:25:17 AM by Nytemare3701 »

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 10:49:25 PM »
Bumping this, one of my players is building and playing it tomorrow. Any last minute thoughts?

Offline Prime32

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 08:11:46 AM »
Falling Star Strike and Unbalancing Strike should be Stunning Fist based, not on every attack.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 11:49:05 AM »
Basically class variations and multiclassing is another place WotC has no idea what the hell they're talking about.
Indeed.

But as more of a TO thought, if humored most of Dragon's Variants are subjective to the concept. Not Substitution levels that WotC uses mind you, but Class Variants. Something Dragon readily uses (in fact, most of UA's content is Dragon material edited and updated).

Picture a Martial Monk 2 / Holy Sidewinder Monk 3 / Overwhelming Attack or Passive Way Chaos Monk 2 / Dark Moon Disciple Wild Monk 8 / Major Bloodline 3. ECL 18 but 27 virtual levels of "Monk" progression. That's 50% more Monk per Monk.  :D

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 12:35:43 PM »
Basically class variations and multiclassing is another place WotC has no idea what the hell they're talking about.
Indeed.

But as more of a TO thought, if humored most of Dragon's Variants are subjective to the concept. Not Substitution levels that WotC uses mind you, but Class Variants. Something Dragon readily uses (in fact, most of UA's content is Dragon material edited and updated).

Picture a Martial Monk 2 / Holy Sidewinder Monk 3 / Overwhelming Attack or Passive Way Chaos Monk 2 / Dark Moon Disciple Wild Monk 8 / Major Bloodline 3. ECL 18 but 27 virtual levels of "Monk" progression. That's 50% more Monk per Monk.  :D

Our group regularly walks the line between TO and CO. How big of a deal do you think using the variants would be compared to the existing build?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 02:04:45 PM »
For the better, but the theme goes way off. It's less focused on martial skills even if you had them all. Martial breaks the bag by granting prerequisite ignoring Fighter Feats so for instance you can obtain Whirlwind Attack at the 1st level. Not to mention all those Bonus Feats... But anyway, breaking it down.

Holy Sidewinder is a combination of the Sidewinder Monk and the Holy Fighting Style variant. Sidewinder 3 as a whole tweaks your Bonus Feat List and loses Still Mind. But it grants a +1 Competence Bonus to Bluff, Fast Movement, and Sneak Attack +1d6. The Bonus Feats in turn are over written by Holy which takes your 1st & 6th level Feats to grant Smite Evil, Aura of Courage, and Turn Undead. This also means you still get the 2nd Bonus Feat from Sidewinder which is Improved Feint or Mobility. I believe the submitted build has both of those on top of being super Feat tight so that's kind of nice. Plus while your Turn Undead sucks for you know, turning Undead, you have Turn Undead. Burn it on Devotion Feats or something.

Chaos Monk like the Sidewinder is a full on Class Variant. And it's well known for it's Failing Strike, a FoB alternative that grants +1d4-1 additional attacks rather than just one, thanks to Bloodlines this is progressed to +1d4 which is far superior to FoB's only +1. Mindful you cannot use Fob & FS at the same time, both require Full-Round Actions. Then like Sidewinder, a Fighting Style variant is applied to improve the choice of Feats. Like I mentioned, lots of Feats. Martial Monk 2 / Holy Sidewinder Monk 3 / %Variant% Chaos Monk 2 has obtained five Bonus Feats for it's seven levels.

Wild Monk is a massive change over from the other Monk Variants. No Bonus Feats are given but instead you obtain Wild shape at the 6th level. It still has Wholeness of Body to trade away for Dark Moon Disciple's Shadow Blend too. The 8th level is for 2/day Wild Shape. Bloodlines kicks this up to 11th level and if you buy a Wild Shape Amulet that's a 15HD limit which is more than enough for say turning into a Legendary Ape or the action breaking Dire Tortoise. You drastically become less of an unarmed human kicking ass and become more of a dinosaur ripping entrails out. Pick up Dragon Wild Shape and the rest is history. So yeah, pretty theme breaking.

Edit - Actually it is theme fitting. The Monk that couldn't decide. So he picked up Rogue, Paladin, and Druid abilities too. :D
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 02:15:00 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 02:44:47 PM »
Niice ... more Monk than the regular Monk, but with the same great taste.
 :D

Carnivore's workshop has another Monk Fightering thingy "Word Given Form".
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=785.msg4557#msg4557


« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 05:22:48 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Prime32

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2013, 03:48:38 PM »
Word Given Form
Nice. I thought there was some martial art or feat based on Truespeak out there somewhere, but I assumed it was in Dragon so I was never able to find it.

Now try combining that with Temerad Mastery I, Deceptive DodgeDrComp, Defensive ThrowCW and Elusive TargetCW.

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2013, 07:26:42 PM »
"Dynasty Bloodline" added, representing the combined knowledge of an entire family of martial artists, unlocked through training.

1: +2 (Tumble)
3: +1 Strength
5: Monk Affinity +2
7: +2 (Balance)
9: +1 Dexterity
11: Monk Affinity +4
13: +2 (Sense Motive)
15: +1 Wisdom
17: Monk Affinity +6
19: +2 (Bluff)
EVENS: Bonus Feat. You must meet all prerequisites and it must be part of a martial art.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2013, 08:51:12 PM »
Source on the Dynasty Bloodline?

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: The monk who couldn't decide.
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2013, 12:17:22 AM »
Source on the Dynasty Bloodline?

Collaboration between the player and I to give him a bloodline based on generations family martial arts training instead of a race. It follows the rules for creating new bloodlines, and the suggestions in the bloodline handbook.

...I WISH that were official content o.o