Author Topic: 3.5 and/or PF: How easy is it to move tier 3s up a tier?  (Read 2137 times)

Offline face_p0lluti0n

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3.5 and/or PF: How easy is it to move tier 3s up a tier?
« on: March 06, 2014, 11:42:28 AM »
Good [insert time of day], all, long-time lurker, first-time poster here. I run a hybrid 3.5/PF campaign with mostly WotC generic D&D, Eberron, and settingless Pathfinder material. The campaign started as 3.5 with all the splatbooks and we eventually incorporated Pathfinder in order to close the biggest holes in 3.5 - Polymorph/Wildshape cheese, Disjunction shenanigans, etc

I've read a large portion of the handbooks on the handbooks sticky-post at this point, and PCs and NPCs alike in my campaign steer clear of any class below tier 3, except as a dip or as part of some elaborate, tier-raising multiclass or PrC build (the Swift Hunter PC in a previous campaign was plenty happy with her classes). ToB classes have replaced normal melees in my campaign and Factoti, Bards, Beguilers, and Vivisectionist Alchemists have replaced Rogues.

With tier 1&2 demoted from cheese-eaters to just plain demigods, is it possible to use magic items, UMD, +tier PrCs, and skillful play to keep characters that started on Tier 3 classes relevant into the mid teens? I've got no illusions about anybody competing with 9th level spells - I've already made it clear in my game that nobody except maybe the BBEG will ever have L9 spells.

I'm compiling a list of ways to get characters that begin their careers in tier 3s into a position of being high-end tier 3s/low-end tier 2s by the mid-late teens while keeping 3/4 BAB or better. Here's what I've got so far:

PrCs: (I grabbed most of these from the tier-increasing PrC list)
Divine Crusader (earliest possible entry, a good domain pick, and some domain-adding PrCs will give a full BAB character access to spells up to 9th level)
Ur-Priest (Doesn't require any specific class abilities to enter, and the spell progression is, of course, absurd)
War Mind (non-psi entry), since you can get in at level 6, PsyWar powers up to level 5 which means most of the really good stuff plus Expanded Knowledge to add some utility powers
Dip one level into a tier 1 or 2 caster class and then go into Abjurant Champion, Unseen Seer, RKV, Sacred Fist, Jade Phoenix Mage, etc - any awesome gish class that doesn't require you to have a bunch of levels invested in a pure caster class
Sublime Chord (doesn't get good BAB but Bard/Sublime Chords start looking like tier 2 casters)
Chameleon

My maybe list includes a bunch of PrCs that include their own casting up to level 4-5 spells - stuff like Disciple of Thrym, Vadalis Beastkeeper, Pious Templar, Slayer of Domiel, Holy Liberator, Ebonmar Infiltrator, etc

If anybody knows of a compiled list of PrCs that include their own spellcasting, that would be awesome.

I also thought about ways to get UMD and then buy wands, eternal wands, and schemas for the most common utility spells. Skilled classes could even pick up scrolls and schemas for decently high-level utility spells.

Am I aiming too high, here? It just seems to me that with some combination of a spellcasting PrC, re-usable magic items, and ways for tier 3 spellcasters to add spells from other classes to their list, tier 3s might be able to have a spell or spell-like selection that rivals a lower-end Sorc or Favored Soul along with the special tricks unique to their class, which might allow them to sneak into the low tier 2.

Thoughts?

If this isn't already a handbook somewhere, is anyone interested in the possibility of me starting one?

Thanks!

-facep0lluti0n

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: 3.5 and/or PF: How easy is it to move tier 3s up a tier?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 05:44:36 PM »
If anybody knows of a compiled list of PrCs that include their own spellcasting, that would be awesome.
... yeah PLZ has a guide for this on Handbooks.


UMD + reasonable r.a.i. either crafting trickery or local magic marts,
can take care of many differences of classes, but is clearly better at
equalizing out-of-combat than in-combat / out in the field operations.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Keldar

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Re: 3.5 and/or PF: How easy is it to move tier 3s up a tier?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 09:15:37 PM »
I don't think Tier 3s really need to move up a tier to play the game.  All those classes were placed in that tier because, outside of the munchkin classes, they're the best at what they do.  What 1s and 2s have over them is mostly versatility rather than power.1  A cleric can tank like a Crusader one day and buff like a Bard the next. (And a druid can do everything all at once, because they were written by a 10 year old.)  Action economy2 largely prevents the high tier classes from obliterating the value of the tier 3s.  As long as the assumption of magic item shops persists to allow tier 3s to fill in the gaps in their capabilities as expected, no special treatment should be needed.3

But you can always break out Artifacts for the people that feel left behind.  Best use for those outside of plot mcguffin.

1Combat power that is.  High level spells can muck with the setting and plot in more ways than low level ones.  Even good tier 3 classes, like martial adepts, don't necessarily get plot coupon powers which may be an issue for some, I guess. 
2Presuming of course that all the ridiculous cheese like Celerity + immunity to daze or flowing time Genesis demi-planes are told to sod right off.
3Obviously, even tier 3s can be built badly and under perform.

Offline face_p0lluti0n

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Re: 3.5 and/or PF: How easy is it to move tier 3s up a tier?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 10:37:31 AM »
@Keldar:
I gave it a couple more days of thought and I see what you mean.

ToB classes are flat-out unparalleled at melee combat. The most recent session of my game involved a Swordsage/Heir of Siberys PC very nearly soloing a Conjurer of comparable level - the only help she needed was a Trace Teleport power and a Teleport to follow the Conjurer to his hideout and take him down. And the Warblade/Warmind is very nearly immune to everything because he has the save-booster Diamond Mind maneuvers, Steadfast Perception from War Mind, a Ring of Freedom of Movement, and Iron Heart Surge. The tier 3 PCs, at 15th level, ignore miss chances, still have a 75-80% chance of succeeding on their bad save category, negate a significant portion of debuffs (especially the really crippling conditions - the SS/HoS is immune to stunning thanks to Dragonmark feats), and rely on the Tier 1s mostly for plot-coupon utility spells - the tier 1s in my game actually seem to be rather poor at combat and usually just throw out a few buffs and utility spells and then hide in the bag of holding while the ToB characters win all of the fights.

And just about every other tier 3 gets a minimum of 2/3 spellcasting (or something comparable, in the case of Factoti and Alchemists). Most of the tier 3 casters still get the majority of core's really awesome utility spells or have ways to add them to their lists (Sublime Chord, Unseen Seer, Beguiler's Expanded Knowledge, Magus's Spell Blending).

That said, I'm taking a hard stand against cheese. Nobody has tried Celerity + daze immunity yet, but I did ban any pre-Pathfinder polymorph spells and made the Druid use Pathfinder Wild Shape, so there's no dumping physical stats and then browsing the Monster Manuals for the biggest and baddest monster to change into. I also nipped Zeroficers in the bud - downtime is in short supply so crafting all of the answers is not an option, and I've rules that spell trigger/completion items take a minimum of a standard action to use. No demiplace cheese because no 9th level spells are allowed at all (it's Eberron, so I've declared those to be lost secrets of the Giants which the PCs might find a scroll of as a plot macguffin, I've warned them that the campaign's level cap will keep them below 9th level spell access for any character class, and the only NPCs with 9th level spells/powers are BBEGs who have some sort of plot excuse to have access to them, and Mordain the Flesh Weaver, who has them but would rather give you aberration grafts). None of the PCs can engage in Persist cheese either - nobody has access to DMM or Persist, and if they did, my NPCs would probably start carrying more dispelling weapons.

The game still feels like low-to-mid powered superheroes because everyone's got "powers" of some sort (two ToB characters, one of whom is also psionic and the other is an Heir of Siberys, a Druid, and an Artificer) and magic mart is assumed because it's Eberron (and I can't help but think that Magic Mart actually helps the non-casters stay relevant by giving them easy access to magic items that do spell-like things) and so even the ToB characters have tons of plot-coupon utility spells via items and UMD fuel (wands, scrolls, schemas). I think I may have underestimated how dominating the ToB characters are in combat, and how much items and UMD can shore up their lack of utility spells/powers at the late levels. The tier 1 casters can still crack plots in half because of  those win button spells, but since the game has gone non-dairy, the casters still have to rely on the ToBs to win their fights because maneuvers > nerfed polymorphing and nerfed buffstacks. Plus, the BBEGs are or have access to tier 1 casters, so their evil plots and plans are built with awareness of the common win button utility spells and they have taken steps to prevent them from working (any 15th+ level BBEG in my campaign world has Private Sanctum permanently cast on their lair, Greater Anticipate Teleportation cast on them on a daily basis, sleep in Rope Trick or Magnificent Mansion, and has at least one special sense such as blindsense/sight or scent.

@awaken_D_M_golem

Ok, I checked again and I found PLZ's guide. Thanks for pointing that out, turns out I was just looking in the wrong place.

One of the reasons that I like Eberron is that magic mart is written right into the campaign world, so I don't need to worry about kludging together some sort of reason why the PCs (and NPCs that are meant to be competent and challenging) have access to  the typical items that the game assumes you will gain access to beyond a certain level/CR (Cloak/Vest of Resistance, stat booster wearables, magic weapons & armor, etc). Since adventuring is a legit day job in Eberron and Cannith magic marts support this, every competent professional adventurer knows that as soon as you get some money, you go down to the Cannith magic mart and grab a belt of strength or whatever else you need.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: 3.5 and/or PF: How easy is it to move tier 3s up a tier?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2014, 03:06:31 PM »
That all seems reasonable for an Eberron Magic Mart.
It isn't that hard to limit it, or to break it.

I can't imagine a Magewright f-ing up a game,
without Commoners being able to do it, too.
Your codpiece is a mimic.