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Creative Corner => New Mechanics and Subsystems => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Oslecamo's Improved Monster Classes => Topic started by: oslecamo on January 09, 2012, 11:32:29 PM

Title: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on January 09, 2012, 11:32:29 PM

Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
(http://i.imgur.com/RdpwPTG.jpg)
(http://www.deviantart.com/download/118168035/MTG___Lord_of_The_Pit_by_Kar_LOL.jpg)(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_134.jpg)
Prerequisites:
To become a Monster of Legend, a creature must fulfill the following requirements:
-At least four levels in  monster classes.
-Any  type but humanoid (Monstrous humanoid is ok), undead, construct,  or swarm.
-Must have performed a deed worthy of legend.
-Cannot be a cohort/follower/similar. Being dominated/charmed/turned into an undead minion/similar makes you automatically lose your levels of Monster of Legend. The prc levels are recovered as soon as the effect is removed.

HD: D8

Level   BAB   Fort   Ref   Will    Special
1st   +0   +0   +0   +2   Body of Legend, Legendary Might, Legendary Skill, Legendary Prowess
2nd   +1   +0   +0   +3   Saga
Skill Points 4+Int mod per level.
Class Skills: As Base Creature

Proficiencies: Monsters of Legend do not gain any new proficiencies.

Class Features:

Body of Legend:  Unlike other monster classes, the creature's original racial traits are retained.  The Monster of Legend gains Outsider traits, if it did not already have them, with the augmented subtype if necessary.  Their native plane is the plane where they were born.

Legendary Might: The Monster of Legend has gone trough a lot, and this reflects on it's body. It may have any number of cosmetic changes or even special effects like body parts made of energy, as long as his original race is still recognizable. Those changes grant no mechanical benefit.

If they still weren't, the Monster of Legend's attacks count as it's own alignment for bypassing defenses. It's melee attacks can strike incorporeal opponents without trouble, and ignore half the DR of any target they strike. If the Monster of Legend already had any of those abilities, then it gains +1 to attack and damage rolls for every overlap.

Finally, a Monster of Legend is immune to polymorphing effects against its own will.

Legendary Skill:  Choose one of the following:
-Fast Healing equal to 1/2 the creature's HD. If the creature already had Fast Healing, increase it by 2 instead.
-Immunity to Mind-affecting
-Permanent Spell Turning effect, except that it reflects one spell level for 2 HD of the Monster of Legend, and automatically recharges at the start of the Monster of Legend's turn.

Alternately, pick two of the following (you can't pick the same option twice unless noticed otherwise):
-Immunity to one of the following:  acid, electricity, fire, cold, poison. Can be taken multiple times, each one choosing a diferent immunity.
-DR/material, with the material being iron, silver or adamantium, equal to 1/2 the Creature's HD.  If a Creature already has DR from other sources, increase it by +2.
-SR equal to 11+HD.  If a Creature already has SR from other sources, increase it by +4.
-Permanent See Invisibility. At 14 HD also works  as permanent True Seeing.
-Wings, allowing it to fly at twice its base land speed at average maneuverability.  If the creature already has wings, it grows an additional, matching pair, giving them additional flight speed of +5 feet per HD and one step of increased maneuverability

Legendary Prowess: At 1st and 2nd level, the Monster of Legend gains +1 to an ability score of it's choice.

Saga: at second level, pick a second option from Legendary skill, and an option from below.

(click to show/hide)

Breath Weapon- The Monster of Legend can use a breath weapon  that fills either a cone with 30+5 feet/HD feet or a 60+10 feet/HD line, dealing 1d6 damage/HD, with a reflex save (DC 10 +1/2 HD +Con mod).  This breath weapon can look of any energy type, but it actually deals untyped damage and thus ignores all resistances and immunities. Once the breath weapon is used, the Creature of Legend must wait 1d4 rounds to use it again.

Frightful Presence- When the Creature of Legend attacks or charges it inspires terror in all creatures within 5 feet per HD. Opponents in range must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 +1/2 HD + Con mod) or become shaken.  A foe that fails by 4 or more is Frightened, and a creature that fails by 8 or more is Panicked.  Regardless of succeeding or failing, creatures cannot be affected again by this for 24 hours.

At 10 HD, this affects even creatures immune to fear, but they gain a +5 bonus on their Will saves.

Hot Blooded- When the Creature of Legend is damaged in melee, elementally infused blood splashes onto a 5 feet per 4 HD cone, that must include the attacker on it's area, and deals 1d4 untyped damage for every 2HD.

Additionally, 1/day per 6 HD, the Monster of Legend may push itself trough it's limits as a free action, even if unable to take actions, it's own elemental blood surfacing at it's skin and granting it a Freedom of Movement effect, plus temporary HP equal to half it's max HP. This state lasts for a number of rounds equal to Con modifier, and during it the Monster of Legend can ignore any ill effects it received before activating this ability. Any new ill effects will affect it as normal, except for ones that would be blocked by Freedom of Movement.

Faith Prophet- Provided it does not already have divine casting or divine caster advancement from another source, the Creature of Legend can now spontaneously cast divine spells, with the ability to cast each spell known once a day.  For spells known, the Creature of Legend must pick two domains, and can access any spell of a level that's no more than 1/2 its HD.  (A level 6 creature could cast up to level 3 spells). It doesn't gain the extra bonus from the domains. Save DCs are Charisma based.

Should the creature take levels in a divine spellcasting class, it may elect to have its Monster Class & Creature of Legend levels stack for the purposes of determining CL and spells per day.  This does not apply retroactively; An 8th level Creature of Legend acquiring one level of cleric would gain the spells per day it would have gained going from 8th level cleric to 9th level cleric, but wouldn't retroactively gain the spell options of a 1st to 8th level cleric.

Sweet Poison-You are a natural corrupter of hearts. Whenever you lure a creature in an act of passion (such as a kiss or anything more "intimate", either way never less than a standard action and a melee touch attack), they must suceed on a Fort save with DC 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod or suffer from a special poison. It isn't detectable by any means and inflicts 1 Wisdom damage as primary and Secondary damage (enemies immune to it can still be affected, but gain a +5 bonus on their saves). If you used it on a sentient being and they fail either save, you drain part of their essence and gain +1 to an ability score of you choice other than charisma for 24 hours. You cannot gain a bonus to any of your ability scores trough this ability bigger than 1/4 your HD.

Sweet Poison is extremely addicting, and anyone who suffered Wisdom Damage from it takes a cumulative -1 penalty on new saves against it. A creature who failed three or more saves must actually make a Will save with DC 10+1/2HD+Cha mod at the start of every day or seek out the one who poisoned them for 24 hours, trying to get adjacent to them by any means possible. They're still free to attack anyone they perceive as an enemy tough.

The only means of removing addiction to Sweet Poison is going trough a month whitout saving against it. This inevitably involves the friends of the victim locking them in a place or providiging Aid Another to help them make their saves.

Essence Drain- Choose one weapon of the Monster of Legend (may be a natural weapon) or its constriction if it has such ability. Every time the Monster of Legend hits an oponent with that weapon, it drains 1d8 from one stat chosen when this ability is gained (if Con is chosen, only 1d4 is drained). Attacks drain with each hit, Constriction drains each round the hold is maintained. A Fortitude Save (DC equals 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Highest Stat mod) can be made to avoid this drain effect. Even creatures immune to Ability Drain can be affected, but they gain a +5 bonus on their saves.  At 10 HD and every 5 HD thereafter, ability Drain increases one die size as if it was a weapon.

In addition with each  successful Drain, the Monster of Legend gains 2 temporary hit points per ability point drained for 1 hour, a cumulative +1 to hit and damage rolls for 1 round, and the Save DCs of its Special Attacks gain +2 for 1 round (non-cumulative).


Blinding Flash- The Monster of Legend can emit a blinding flash of light a number of times per day equal to its highest Stat mod as a standard action. Anyone within 100 feet of the Monster of Legend that can somehow detect it it must make a Fortitude Save (DC: 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Highest Stat Mod modifier) or be Blinded for 1d6 minutes. If the Save is successful they are blinded for 1d4 rounds. Any extra senses like Blindsense, Blindsight and Mindsight are also lost for the duration. The Monster of Legend must wait 1d4+1 rounds before being able to use this again.

Energized Attack-As a swift action once per minute you may charge your natural attacks (or any weapons you're holding, but not both weapons and natural attacks, and only while you hold the weapons)  with energy of some type. You must choose the type when this ability is gained, and the effect last 1d4+1 rounds. During this time your natural attacks do an extra 1d8 damage of the appropriate energy type, plus an extra 1d8 at 10 HD and every 5 HD thereafter.  You may choose Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, Negative Energy or Positive Energy, and can't change later. In addition for the duration you ignore an amount of resistance to your chosen element equal to your HD, with oponents with immunity to your element counting as having resistance 35. In addition your energized attacks inflict an extra penalty depending on the element, all saves are DC 10+1/2 HD+Highest stat mod (the enemy must actually receive at least 1 elemental damage to suffer from this). No single enemy may be forced to save more than 1/round by those.

Acid-Fort save or take a -2 penalty on AC for every 5 HD you have for 1 round.
Fire-Fort save or take extra untyped damage equal to your HD.
Cold-Reflex save or have all movement speeds halved for 1 round.
Electricity-Reflex save or take a penalty on all skill checks  equal to half your HD for 1 round.
Negative Energy-Fort save or take a -1 penalty on all saves for every 5 HD you have for 1 round.
Positive Energy-Will save or take a penalty on attack rolls equal to half your HD for 1 round.

Air Storm-as a roar, massive clap of hands, flap of wings or similar, as a standard action the Monster of Legend can create a 100 foot cone filled with a Windstorm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm). At 10 HD it can be increased to Hurricane. At  15 HD it increases to a Tornado. All save DCs are 10+1/2HD+Highest Stat mod, and the winds last for 1d4 rounds.

Pact Summoner-3 times per day as a fullround action you can summon an outsider whose CR is equal to (your HD -5).  This is the equivalent of a 9th level spell.  The alignemnent of Fiend must be the same as your own (i.e. Chaotic Evil can summon Demons, Lawful Evil can summon Devils, etc). The outsider serves for 1 minute per HD and then leaves, and you can't summon a new one while an older one is still present, but you can dismiss them as an Immediate action. If the outsider summoned has any SLA that would normally cost exp and/or gold, you must pay the price yourself.

Deep Power- You gain a Profane(if you're evil) or Sacred (if you're good) Bonus on Armor Class, Initiative Rolls, and Saving Throws equal to your Charisma Modifier. This ability doesn't stack with other abilities that allow you to add your Charisma mod to those things. If you're neither good or evil, pick between Profane and Sacred, you can't change later.

Natural Mage- Provided it does not already have arcane casting or arcane caster advancement from another source, the Creature of Legend can now spontaneously cast arcane spells, with the ability to cast each spell known once a day.  For spells known, the Creature of Legend must pick two descriptors/subschools such as [Chaos] or [Fire] or (Charm), and knows two spells of each level from the sorceror spell list with the chosen descriptors/subschools, up to spell level equal to 1/2 its HD.  (A level 6 creature could cast up to level 3 spells). Save DCs are Charisma based.

Should the creature take levels in an arcane spellcasting class, it may elect to have its Monster Class & Monster of Legend levels stack for the purposes of determining CL and spells per day.  This does not apply retroactively; An 8th level Monster of Legend acquiring one level of sorceror would gain the spells per day it would have gained going from 8th level sorceror to 9th level sorceror, but wouldn't retroactively gain the spell options of a 1st to 8th level sorceror.

Traveler- You may cast Plane Shift at will as a Sorcerer whose Level is equal to your Hit Dice, and you're immune to the ill effects of any plane you travel to. With a touch, you can grant this immunity to any other creature for 1 hour.

Overmind: Choose two descriptors or one psionic discipline. You may choose two powers of each level to manifest once per day(you can choose the same power twice for a single level), the power is manifested without augmentations or pp expenditure. You may not manifest a power whose level is more than 1/2 your HD and you are treated as a psion of your HD for all purposes relating to this ability.


Should the creature take levels in a manifesting class, it may elect to have its Creature of Legend levels stack for the purposes of determining ML and powers per day. This does not apply retroactively.


Gifted for War-You may iniate maneuvers as a martial adept whose Level is equal to your Hit Dice. Pick one martial discipline and choose 4 different maneuvers, none of which can be of a level higher than 1/2 your HD, and you must pick at least one strike, one boost and one counter. You may initiate each of them only once per encounter, and after you used them all you automatically recover them at the start of your next turn. You cannot however recover them trough other classes recovery means. Whenever you level up, you can swap those maneuvers for new ones you qualify for, but they must be of the same school, and you must end up with still at least one strike, one boost and one counter.

Should the creature take levels in a martial class, it may elect to have its Creature of Legend and Monster class levels grant full IL for that class only.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on May 11, 2012, 04:36:17 PM

Decided to expand the Saga options of the Monster of Legend. Updated with new ones, and will probably add some more in the near future. Special thanks to Bhu for collaborating in those!

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: estradus on May 14, 2012, 08:25:37 PM

Oh man, this was one of my favorite templates to mess around with when trying to make monsters that would actually be challenging for my players.... Is there any chance abilities along the lines of swallow whole or regeneration could be added as options? I just like those options for making fights interesting, and they do seem rather legenderiffic. Thanks for your time either way though, sir, and keep being amazing.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: bhu on May 14, 2012, 10:00:23 PM

I can do up a few options for people to peruse if no one minds.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on May 15, 2012, 05:38:16 PM

By all means, go ahead!

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: bhu on May 22, 2012, 11:21:31 PM

we'll start with a few for fiends first:

Summoner (Sp) 3 times per day you can summon a Fiend whose CR is equal to (your CR -5).  This is the equivalent of a 9th level spell.  The Subtype of Fiend is the same as your own (i.e. Demons can summon Demons, Devils summon Devils, etc.)

Dark Power (Ex) You gain a Profane Bonus on Armor Class, Initiative Rolls, and Saving Throws equal to your Charisma Modifier.

Infernal Mage You may cast spells as a Sorcerer whose Level is equal to your Hit Dice.  Choose 1 spell from the Sorcerer spell list of each Level you can cast with the Chaos or  Evil descriptor.  You may cast each of them once per day.

Traveler You may cast Plane Shift and Planar Tolerance at will as a Sorcerer whose Level is equal to your Hit Dice.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on May 23, 2012, 03:16:16 PM

I don't really want to tie options to any kind of monster. That's for what the Paragon is for. Legendary Monster is for those "Holy crap how did it do that?" moments.

So I'll just adapt those a little so they're more "generic". Added them to the bottom of the list, let me know how they are!

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: bhu on June 16, 2012, 02:37:33 PM

I got more coming life has just been stepping on me hard.  Back soon.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Anomander on June 23, 2012, 10:48:33 AM

Perhaps there might as well be a psionic and martial equivalent to Faith prophet and Natural mage.
Maybe something that grants 1/day powers of the same descriptor or discipline and something that grants 1/encounter maneuvers of the same school.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on June 24, 2012, 03:51:46 PM

Sounds good. You write down a detailed version. :p

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: littha on June 25, 2012, 07:36:42 AM

Why does pact summoner run off your CR rather than HD? You generally wouldn't know what CR a player character is.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on June 25, 2012, 07:55:16 AM

Where's the problem? The CR rules can also be applied to a character, as if they were an NPC. Assuming no exotic races with LA, level=CR.

If I had made it based into HD, it would be biased towards goody-two-shoes, as a lot of celestials are under-HD for their CR, while devils/demons/inevitables/slaad and whatnot have the same or more HD than CR.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: littha on June 25, 2012, 08:29:24 AM

A player characters CR is directly related to their HD anyway. I am referring to

Quote

CR is equal to (your CR -5).

This bit.

Just word it

Quote

CR is equal to (your HD -5).

and it is functionally identical but does not refer to a stat specifically used for NPCs.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on June 25, 2012, 10:27:36 AM

Hmmm, good idea, changed it.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Anomander on June 25, 2012, 12:11:56 PM

Overmind: You may manifest as a Psion whose Level is equal to your Hit Dice. Choose 2 powers from a single psionic discipline (clairsentience, metacreativity...)  of each level you can manifest.  You may manifest each of them only once per day.
Should the creature take levels in a manifesting class, it may elect to have its Creature of Legend levels stack for the purposes of determining ML and powers per day. This does not apply retroactively.

Gifted for War: You may manifest as a martial adept whose Level is equal to your Hit Dice. Pick one martial discipline and choose 2 maneuvers of each level that you can initiate with at least one of the descriptors. You may initiate each of them only once per encounter and cannot recover the,.
Should the creature take levels in a martial class, it may elect to have its Creature of Legend and Monster class levels grant full IL for that class only.


I think that part should be added to Natural Mage:
Should the creature take levels in an arcane casting class, it may elect to have its Creature of Legend levels stack for the purposes of determining CL and spells per day.  This does not apply retroactively.

Natural Mage and Overmind could have their Monster Class levels stack as well when multiclassing but it wouldn't work well without noting that Monster class levels that already give an arcane/psionic progression would not stack as well.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on June 25, 2012, 05:25:01 PM

Reduced both to just 1 power/maneuver per level, because psionic powers are overall much more versatile than spells, and because the maneuvers get to be spammed every ecounter. Also cleaned up a bit.

Added the part to natural mage.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: littha on July 14, 2012, 03:54:01 AM

RAW the overmind saga does not work as you manifest as a psion but have no PP to spend. Probably best to give each power as a 1/day psi like ability if you want it to work like spellcasting otherwise you need a pp pool and there is usually nothing stopping a psion manifesting the same 1st level power 17 times rather than a 9th level power.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on July 14, 2012, 07:07:42 AM

Nice try littha, but it works. You simply manifest them whitout paying the points or being able to spend extra points.

If I made them PLAs, then it would be straight superior to the other options, because even a simple 1st level power  like astral construct scales all the way to a 9th level power when it becomes a PLA.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: littha on July 14, 2012, 09:23:56 AM

You need wording to support that then because that is not manifesting as a psion of your HD. That and with no augmentation a lot of the powers will be absolutely worthless, especially compared to the magic versions of this ability. The sorcerer version could cast fireball from a 3rd level slot and have it deal 10d6 damage but without augmentations the psion is stuck at 1d6 no matter their level.

Alternate wording:

Overmind:
Choose two descriptors or one psionic discipline. You may choose one power of each level to manifest once per day, the power is manifested without augmentations or pp expenditure. You may not manifest a power whose level is more than 1/2 your HD and you are treated as a psion of your HD for all purposes relating to this ability.

Other alternative:
Grant slots of pp, 1,3...17 and allow any power to be put in each. Astral construct is equal to a 9th level power when you spend 17pp on it so why not allow a choice of which level you could take it at. Wording on this would be rather more complicated but you basically just have to make it clear that augmented versions of lower level powers can be taken in a higher level slot. This is a lot closer to the magic version balance wise (still weaker, your 3rd level slot does 3d6 damage rather than 10d6 but at least its closer).

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on July 14, 2012, 10:58:20 AM

Except again, this is psionics. No hands or mouth or anything required. Completely tied up and dismembered while in a Silence area? The Overmind doesn't give a single damn and can use its powers anyway. Sure, your blasting won't be that famous, but Fireball with Natural Mage wasn't that famous either.

Anyway, your first sugestion does sound clearer so added it, thanks!

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Sohala on July 14, 2012, 12:37:12 PM

I'm probably just dense, but limiting the psionics to a single option, and then preventing augmentations by lack of PP, seems to make Overmind inferior to Natural Mage, by a seemingly large margin, as augmentations are part of power scaling and utility. Would it be such a terrible thing if Overmind granted enough PP to manifest each power once, without augmentations (81 PP). It would give the option of augmentations, but would cost the ability to manifest one of the other powers.

The option to select from mantles might be a nice addition.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: VennDygrem on July 14, 2012, 02:29:16 PM

After taking a brief look, granting PP to augment powers would make the higher level powers too powerful for this sort of ability/class feature, as most of them either do appropriate damage for their level or have effects independent of level. However, lower level powers tend to suffer.

There are two fixes for this.

1) Just take powers that don't need to be augmented to be effective.

2) Implement a fix for the Saga feature in which for each Psionic Power you gain through the Overmind ability, you gain +1 power point for every 3 levels you surpass the minimum level required to manifest it, usable only for augmenting the respective power.

Thus, you won't have much augmentation of your higher level powers, but lower level powers should scale just enough to remain useful without getting overpowered.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Sohala on July 14, 2012, 09:13:24 PM

I assumed once a day would still be a restriction, as much as I would enjoy it not being one. Granting PP would basically be trading quantity for quality.

...Or I think I misread your concern, lets try again.

There would be no free manifesting, 81 PP covers the cost of manifesting each power once. To manifest and augment a power, you would 'lose' the ability to manifest your whole list. There are those people who would blow all the PP on maxing out four powers at level 20, but then that is all they can do with that feature. Meanwhile the people who selected arcane or divine variants still have several more daily use spells left.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Zionpopsickle on July 16, 2012, 12:40:39 AM

Just a little thing that bugs me.  Why isn't this full BAB?  Seems like a legendary monster should be pretty good at beating on things even if its a caster base.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on July 16, 2012, 09:42:40 AM

Quote from: Sohala on July 14, 2012, 09:13:24 PM

There would be no free manifesting, 81 PP covers the cost of manifesting each power once. To manifest and augment a power, you would 'lose' the ability to manifest your whole list. There are those people who would blow all the PP on maxing out four powers at level 20, but then that is all they can do with that feature. Meanwhile the people who selected arcane or divine variants still have several more daily use spells left.

Hell if that wouldn't be free manifesting. PP from diferent sources does stack, so that would be way superior to the arcane and divine ones, which don't grant actual spell slots.

Quote from: Zionpopsickle on July 16, 2012, 12:40:39 AM

Just a little thing that bugs me.  Why isn't this full BAB?  Seems like a legendary monster should be pretty good at beating on things even if its a caster base.

No, the Paragon should be good at beating things. Monster of Legend is all about flashy abilities concentrated in a small package. Plus the class already gives more than enough stuff for two levels as it is.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Sohala on July 16, 2012, 02:29:01 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 16, 2012, 09:42:40 AM

Quote from: Sohala on July 14, 2012, 09:13:24 PM

There would be no free manifesting, 81 PP covers the cost of manifesting each power once. To manifest and augment a power, you would 'lose' the ability to manifest your whole list. There are those people who would blow all the PP on maxing out four powers at level 20, but then that is all they can do with that feature. Meanwhile the people who selected arcane or divine variants still have several more daily use spells left.

Hell if that wouldn't be free manifesting. PP from diferent sources does stack, so that would be way superior to the arcane and divine ones, which don't grant actual spell slots.

I was using the term 'free' in place of 'costless', as the current ability allows the mainfesting of each power without a PP cost, once per day, while if PP were added the powers would have a PP cost.

PP does stack from more than once source, no denying that. The arcane and divine also provide twice as many daily uses as the psionics, under the reason that psionics has more utility, which got reduced with the lack of augmention.

I'm just trying to close the power gap between the abilities, because right now, I don't see a reason to pick the psionic option.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on July 16, 2012, 05:43:22 PM

You're right, the last version cut the part where you got two powers per level as the others. Added that one back in.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: phaedrusxy on October 04, 2012, 01:04:13 PM

So for Essence Drain, is that only for a single natural weapon? Or would you apply it to all weapons of a specific kind (like a grell's 10 tentacle attacks...)?

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: VennDygrem on October 04, 2012, 01:22:19 PM

Osle ruled that it's only a single, individual weapon, for a character of mine in one of his campaigns. For instance, that character is a Harssaf with dual sand-kukris (a paired weapon) which each could count for essence drain individually, but only one gets the benefit.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on October 05, 2012, 06:31:29 PM

^What he said.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on October 14, 2012, 02:14:15 PM

On Faith Prophet: Does the domain casting ability remain and continue to advance if the character takes divine class levels? If the character takes Cleric levels, must they choose the same two domains they chose for FP?

What is the governing ability for FP domain casting?

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on October 16, 2012, 05:43:59 PM

The domain casting ability is a casting progression of its own and advances regardless of what other levels you take. You can pick other domains if you go cleric. Charisma based.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on December 09, 2012, 04:22:47 PM

Currently Natural Mage and Overmind only stack Monster of Legend levels with casting/manifesting while faith prophet stacks both monster class and MoL levels. Is this intentional?

EDIT: also, would it be reasonable to have natural mage allow the selection of subschools as well as descriptors? I ask this partly because quite a few descriptors are also subschools and the designers weren't always consistent with what was one and what was the other.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on December 10, 2012, 09:04:46 AM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on December 09, 2012, 04:22:47 PM

Currently Natural Mage and Overmind only stack Monster of Legend levels with casting/manifesting while faith prophet stacks both monster class and MoL levels. Is this intentional?

Yes, since faith prophet is somewhat more limited on its spell selection as domain spells come bundled.

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on December 09, 2012, 04:22:47 PM

EDIT: also, would it be reasonable to have natural mage allow the selection of subschools as well as descriptors? I ask this partly because quite a few descriptors are also subschools and the designers weren't always consistent with what was one and what was the other.

Hmm, ok, that sounds reasonable.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on December 10, 2012, 09:22:13 AM

Quote from: Oslecamo

Yes, since faith prophet is somewhat more limited on its spell selection as domain spells come bundled.

Firstly, I'd say that there's plenty of pretty awesome domains, several of which grant access to spells that lack descriptors or subschools (Dispel Magic, for example) so the difference between FP and NM/Om is more of a trade off than one being strictly better than the other.

Secondly, I'd suggest that, if there is a power imbalance, the way to deal with it is to buff FP a bit rather than to nerf NM and Om. Losing 4 effective levels of casting stacking is huge and turns those two abilities from very attractive options to ones I would probably never take.

If FP is lagging behind NM/Om, how about having it grant the powers of the chosen Domains as well as the spells? Domains are designed with that in mind anyway and it would give FP something you can't get from the other abilities.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on December 10, 2012, 06:32:26 PM

Except that those 3 are probably already the strongest options on what's already a pretty strong Prc, so if changes are to be had, it would be nerfing something. Besides NM is still pretty atractive for monsters that already have their own arcane synergy, or if you just want 18 SLAs around a theme.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: muktidata on February 12, 2013, 11:36:08 PM

Could Invocations be included in the Saga list?

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on February 13, 2013, 11:04:57 AM

They could if somebody offered a crunch basis to work on. I'm not really sure how to start that one.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: ariasderros on March 15, 2013, 10:24:37 PM

Most other PrC's here specify whether the fast healing granted stacks with other sources, or not. This one does not specify.
Would a Hydra / MoL get stacked fast healing, or not?

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on March 16, 2013, 07:58:22 AM

Specified that it increases already existing Fast Healing by 2.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 25, 2013, 10:19:23 PM

Can we maybe figure out a modified version of Gifted for War that wouldn't be problematic rather than ditching it entirely? Getting rid of it leaves several PbP characters in the lurch.

What was the problem with it? As I recall, you never got a recovery mechanism for the maneuvers you gained via the saga ability meaning that it wouldn't ever come close to the power level of a class that did have recovery.

EDIT: I found a copypasta of the deleted version of the ability.

(click to show/hide)

You may iniate maneuvers as a martial adept whose Level is equal to your Hit Dice. Pick one martial discipline and choose 1 maneuver of each level you can iniate. You may initiate each of them only once per encounter and cannot recover them.

Should the creature take levels in a martial class, it may elect to have its Creature of Legend and Monster class levels grant full IL for that class only.

So yeah, one school, one maneuver/level, no recovery mechanism for those maneuvers even if you multiclass.

I read through the Zombie thread again and your issue seemed to be granting access to martial PrCs without needing a martial base class.

If that's the issue I would suggest altering the last sentence to read "Should the creature take levels in a martial [base] class..."

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Anomander on March 26, 2013, 02:58:16 AM

It was about as strong as the spell granting ones. Remove them too?
They were all too powerful anyway.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2013, 01:19:34 PM

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 25, 2013, 10:19:23 PM

What was the problem with it? As I recall, you never got a recovery mechanism for the maneuvers you gained via the saga ability meaning that it wouldn't ever come close to the power level of a class that did have recovery.

No recovery mechanism is secondary unless you happen to be in a pretty big battle. Also you can probably still recover them with adaptative style depending on how you read it.

But the main problem is that it's 9 maneuvers. Martial iniators usually learn 13-24 maneuvers over their classes. Gifted for War Saga grants a whooping 7-8 extra maneuvers (taking in account the ones you'll miss due to not taking a couple levels of your base class) for just 2 levels. Compare with prophet saga, where divine casters will always know dozens if not hundreds of spells by default. The part where the maneuvers all must be of the same school is also secondary, since unlike spells, the maneuvers of a same school usually have much higher sinergy with each other.

With that said, put back a new version. Fewer maneuvers know, but a custom recovery mechanic.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Anomander on March 26, 2013, 02:41:30 PM

The original was actually granting a maximum 9 maneuvers (1 per maneuver level).
Adaptive Style cannot recover them in either version, because the text states they cannot be recovered at all. Point.
No recovery mostly means you can't spam your higher level maneuvers every 2 rounds or less in battle big and short.

Spells vs Maneuvers.
Casters got more spells but usually not many higher level spells per day.
An initiator usually end up with more higher level maneuvers than low level ones and can spam them. Spells are meant to usually be better than maneuvers. Depending on spells being more powerful than maneuvers of the same level or not, simply not granting any recovery per encounter makes it the same as having 1 spell of each spell level per day.

That aside I'll note you just made it stronger than it was before.
Less maneuvers is trivial considering you still get the higher level ones. Less maneuvers actually makes it better since it becomes easier to spam them all for the instant crusader-like recovery, making it possible to quickly use your best maneuver over and over again.
Way better than carrying around a bunch of low level maneuvers that can be used only once per encounter at best, I say.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2013, 02:55:35 PM

If they can't be recovered at all, then that would kinda suck because it would mean you could only ever use each maneuver once in your existence. Adaptative style on the other hand never uses the explicit word "recover", you just change your readied maneuvers.

Anyway pretty much every ToB school has awesome low and medium level maneuvers, from IHS to WRT, sudden leap, mountain hammer, diamond mind counters, etc, etc. Also means you can mill out a lot of utility out of the previous option.

With the current method, you can only pull the quick repeating if you don't pick any reactive maneuvers. If you have a leftover counter, in particular a situational one, you can't hope to be able to expend it right away. And if you don't pick any reactive maneuvers, you're severly limiting yourself on your choices. Great for pure offense yes, but what makes maneuvers great is versatility of choice.

If you went with Iron Heart for example, you most surely want the Iron Heart Surge one, but it's not guaranteed in battle you'll always have a good reason to use it. Meaning you spend a standard action if you want to recover your stuff.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Anomander on March 26, 2013, 03:18:37 PM

Not much of an issue. You can get your reactive powers through actual class abilities since you only spend two levels for your maneuver power.
I dunno, say, martial levels that grant you those Counters?

As presented, it is more ideal as a mean to wreck stuff up very quickly. Like easy access to skill check to damage tricks. Boosts to make sure they land or get otherwise really effective and something to move around the battlefield very well. To wreck stuff. Then do it all over again right away until there is nothing left.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2013, 03:56:22 PM

Changed it so that you need to learn at least one strike, one boost and one counter.

Mind you, if you needed to recover them to start with, then you're just wrecking stuff very slowly. :p

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 26, 2013, 06:04:48 PM

New Gifted for War looks great. Thanks.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 19, 2013, 06:18:28 PM

So you can pick immunity to two things as your sole option, but not immunity to just one element as part of the 'pick two options' spread? :huh

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on April 19, 2013, 06:22:12 PM

Good point, moved it to the "pick two options" spread.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 07:34:11 AM

Quote

-Any  type but humanoid (Monstrous humanoid is ok), undead, construct, ooze or swarm.

I can understand no swarms--they're not a single entity--but why no legendary golems, gelatinous cubes, or zombies? :huh

Also, this seems to mean that going from some type of giant to Monster of Legend and then unintentionally becoming a vampire ends up giving you two dead levels.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: VennDygrem on July 27, 2013, 12:08:40 PM

I'd say those creature types are denied because they are mindless in most cases and don't really have free will, no sense of self, and act either by instinct or as instructed. Thus, incapable of making choices and seizing destiny, so to speak. They can't do anything legendary because it's not their will to do so.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 12:09:42 PM

Quote from: VennDygrem on July 27, 2013, 12:08:40 PM

I'd say those creature types are denied because they are mindless in most cases and don't really have free will, no sense of self, and act either by instinct or as instructed. Thus, incapable of making choices and seizing destiny, so to speak. They can't do anything legendary because it's not their will to do so.

We have entire classes for Awakened Gelatinous Cubes and intelligent undead available to use, though. And the third prerequisite would stop mindless creatures from taking it.

On a side note, the way it's written right now makes you outright lose the two levels, including all HD, feats, skillpoints, BAB, and similar, which would make being charmed or dominated much, much worse.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on July 27, 2013, 08:40:19 PM

On the contrary, it helps you hurt your party members less while you're under the effect of said charm/dominate.

Undeads are those that gave up on life, and thus on the legends that they could've forged while still breathing.

Constructs are simply soulless beings, incapable of understanding the whole legendary concept.

Oozes... Hmm, I can't really think of a good reason for those, they're now allowed as well. :p

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 27, 2013, 08:40:19 PM

On the contrary, it helps you hurt your party members less while you're under the effect of said charm/dominate.

Undeads are those that gave up on life, and thus on the legends that they could've forged while still breathing.

Constructs are simply soulless beings, incapable of understanding the whole legendary concept.

And then what happens when you get intelligent constructs?

And what about undead made from humans? They certainly couldn't be Monsters of Legend before, but what about Dracula (or Alucard from Hellsing as the first undead that comes to mind that would be so very fitting for this class)? Or, in fact, any undead that has transcended its base urges of 'eat without restraint' to earn a place in history? :P

... on a side note, I just noticed the 'ignore half DR' clause in MoL. How does this interact with Power (or is it Rending) weapons from d20 SRW?

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on July 27, 2013, 08:58:29 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

And then what happens when you get intelligent constructs?

Just because they have AIs doesn't mean they have souls.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

And what about undead made from humans? They certainly couldn't be Monsters of Legend before, but what about Dracula (or Alucard from Hellsing as the first undead that comes to mind that would be so very fitting for this class)?

Altough Alucard is pretty badass, it also keeps a pretty low profile, thus definetely qualifying it as non-legendary. 99,99% of its enemies go all "who's this guy again?". Alucard's more of a paragon vampire.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

Or, in fact, any undead that has transcended its base urges of 'eat without restraint' to earn a place in history? :P

I heard of some "twilight" rumors. Doesn't qualify as legends.

 

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

... on a side note, I just noticed the 'ignore half DR' clause in MoL. How does this interact with Power (or is it Rending) weapons from d20 SRW?

Already clarified that one with Anomander on the PS campaign.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 27, 2013, 08:58:29 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

And then what happens when you get intelligent constructs?

Just because they have AIs doesn't mean they have souls.

Half-golem?

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

And what about undead made from humans? They certainly couldn't be Monsters of Legend before, but what about Dracula (or Alucard from Hellsing as the first undead that comes to mind that would be so very fitting for this class)?

Altough Alucard is pretty badass, it also keeps a pretty low profile, thus definetely qualifying it as non-legendary. 99,99% of its enemies go all "who's this guy again?". Alucard's more of a paragon vampire.

'Low profile'? Aside from the people with no knowledge whatsoever, literally everyone he fights knows who he is, and the closest to 'low profile' he gets is locked away for sixty years. He also happens to be Dracula. And quite possibly the single most dangerous creature in the Hellsing world. Non-legendary is a bit of a stretch, here. :eh

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

Or, in fact, any undead that has transcended its base urges of 'eat without restraint' to earn a place in history? :P

I heard of some "twilight" rumors. Doesn't qualify as legends.

Err... what? Seriously? Intelligent undead can't become Monsters of Legend because they don't have a pulse, and your rebuttal to what if one becomes legendary (by being more than 'Hunt, kill, eat, hunt, kill, eat') is to bring up garbage literature? :|

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

... on a side note, I just noticed the 'ignore half DR' clause in MoL. How does this interact with Power (or is it Rending) weapons from d20 SRW?

Already clarified that one with Anomander on the PS campaign.

... any idea where?

Oh, question: if you are a MoL, and then, say, become a lich or something, or a vampire, or generally do anything to turn you into a free-willed intelligent undead, do you lose  the MoL levels?

Sorry for my strange pedantry today. >.<

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: VennDygrem on July 28, 2013, 12:42:25 AM

I don't think you lose MoL levels, unless I missed anything. As for Undead, intelligent undead would have specific prestige classes to their race, I'd say. Like Vampire -> Vampire Lord or something. Or, as Osle suggested, taking Paragon levels.

Ok, so really everyone should take Paragon levels regardless.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on July 29, 2013, 08:55:07 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 27, 2013, 08:58:29 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

And then what happens when you get intelligent constructs?

Just because they have AIs doesn't mean they have souls.

Half-golem?

Didn't you get the memo? Replacing your fleshy bits with technology will destroy your soul. (or so says Shadowrun):p

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

And what about undead made from humans? They certainly couldn't be Monsters of Legend before, but what about Dracula (or Alucard from Hellsing as the first undead that comes to mind that would be so very fitting for this class)?

Altough Alucard is pretty badass, it also keeps a pretty low profile, thus definetely qualifying it as non-legendary. 99,99% of its enemies go all "who's this guy again?". Alucard's more of a paragon vampire.

'Low profile'? Aside from the people with no knowledge whatsoever, literally everyone he fights knows who he is, and the closest to 'low profile' he gets is locked away for sixty years. He also happens to be Dracula. And quite possibly the single most dangerous creature in the Hellsing world. Non-legendary is a bit of a stretch, here.

Most people in Hellsing world don't even believe vampires exist, and those that know that vampires exist don't believe Alucard can exist, even after having seen it flay the skin of the rest of their army.

Anyway vampires will get Vampire Lord somewhere down the line, they really don't need even more nice things.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

Or, in fact, any undead that has transcended its base urges of 'eat without restraint' to earn a place in history? :P

I heard of some "twilight" rumors. Doesn't qualify as legends.

Err... what? Seriously? Intelligent undead can't become Monsters of Legend because they don't have a pulse, and your rebuttal to what if one becomes legendary (by being more than 'Hunt, kill, eat, hunt, kill, eat') is to bring up garbage literature? :|

Any literature where vampires don't actually need to drink blood is garbage literature as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

... on a side note, I just noticed the 'ignore half DR' clause in MoL. How does this interact with Power (or is it Rending) weapons from d20 SRW?

Already clarified that one with Anomander on the PS campaign.

... any idea where?

Go check the begginnings of the high-end OOC thread. Search fuction may help.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Oh, question: if you are a MoL, and then, say, become a lich or something, or a vampire, or generally do anything to turn you into a free-willed intelligent undead, do you lose  the MoL levels?

Yes as you no longer meet the pre-requisites.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Sorry for my strange pedantry today. >.<

You're excused. :p

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 29, 2013, 09:00:56 PM

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

And what about undead made from humans? They certainly couldn't be Monsters of Legend before, but what about Dracula (or Alucard from Hellsing as the first undead that comes to mind that would be so very fitting for this class)?

Altough Alucard is pretty badass, it also keeps a pretty low profile, thus definetely qualifying it as non-legendary. 99,99% of its enemies go all "who's this guy again?". Alucard's more of a paragon vampire.

'Low profile'? Aside from the people with no knowledge whatsoever, literally everyone he fights knows who he is, and the closest to 'low profile' he gets is locked away for sixty years. He also happens to be Dracula. And quite possibly the single most dangerous creature in the Hellsing world. Non-legendary is a bit of a stretch, here.

Most people in Hellsing world don't even believe vampires exist, and those that know that vampires exist don't believe Alucard can exist, even after having seen it flay the skin of the rest of their army.

Luke Valentine specifically sought him out. Millennium knew exactly what he was, because of Schrodinger. I think it's more disbelief that anything so insane could actually exist in the world.

Quote

Anyway vampires will get Vampire Lord somewhere down the line, they really don't need even more nice things.

That would be nice; I don't want to turn into a swarm of beetles or something. D:

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

Or, in fact, any undead that has transcended its base urges of 'eat without restraint' to earn a place in history? :P

I heard of some "twilight" rumors. Doesn't qualify as legends.

Err... what? Seriously? Intelligent undead can't become Monsters of Legend because they don't have a pulse, and your rebuttal to what if one becomes legendary (by being more than 'Hunt, kill, eat, hunt, kill, eat') is to bring up garbage literature? :|

Any literature where vampires don't actually need to drink blood is garbage literature as far as I'm concerned.

I was actually thinking more intelligent revenants, ghouls, and the more esoteric undead like Death Knights than vampires. You were the one to bring up Twilight. :<

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 08:48:03 PM

... on a side note, I just noticed the 'ignore half DR' clause in MoL. How does this interact with Power (or is it Rending) weapons from d20 SRW?

Already clarified that one with Anomander on the PS campaign.

... any idea where?

Go check the begginnings of the high-end OOC thread. Search fuction may help.

Got it.

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 27, 2013, 09:06:45 PM

Oh, question: if you are a MoL, and then, say, become a lich or something, or a vampire, or generally do anything to turn you into a free-willed intelligent undead, do you lose  the MoL levels?

Yes as you no longer meet the pre-requisites.

So... if something turns you into a vampire... you immediately lose two HD rather than just the benefits of the class? :huh

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Clanjos on July 29, 2013, 09:30:32 PM

Right, if I could bring something up here...

Dracula, Lord of Darkness. (http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Dracula)

The world over knows Dracula exists. He is as infamous as one can be during the middle ages, and by the year 2000 there are ARMIES arrayed against him. In life, he was just a crusader. In Undeath, he was the devil himself.

In addition, legendary creatures like the Headless Horseman (Undead), Frankenstein's Monster (Construct OR Undead), and Talos (Construct) can't qualify.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: VennDygrem on July 29, 2013, 10:08:16 PM

I would concede that Dracula is quite legendary in all aspects, though again he is much more likely to be a Vampire/Paragon.

As for the Headless Horseman, I wouldn't say he's quite legendary. There is a story about him, yes, but the legend is only so within the context of a single work of fiction (itself the subject of adaptations), and it is implied that the Headless Horseman was actually just a man in disguise all along.

Frankenstein's Monster hasn't, himself, done much worthy of legend other than exist. Victor von Frankenstein himself may be worthy of legend, having brought the dead back to life in a world where no such feat is considered possible. The creature, as he is more accurately referred as, variably either runs away and tries to learn and better himself in order to be more human, only to seek revenge on his creator, or is little more than the shell of a man filled with base instincts and vague recollections of what it is to be human (depending on the specific story one is sourcing from).

Talos is more of a guardian, like a sentry robot in some cases, and though 'large and in charge,' barely seems to qualify based on the merits of the class.

Even the class image of a minotaur represents a monster which, itself, hasn't done much to be considered legendary, though there is one or more legends written of it. Rather, the depicted creature would be a legendary version of a minotaur, and not the one described in the classic tale.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 29, 2013, 10:16:52 PM

Vampire is only two levels long. He has at least three that aren't paragon. :p

Grim Reaper as a legendary skeleton? It's rather hard to tell, with something like that.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Anomander on July 29, 2013, 11:58:47 PM

For what it's worth, undead creatures do have a soul and sentient ones have the will and some certainly do not lack the ambition to perform deeds worthy of legend. They aren't alive and exist in a different state of being, yes, but they remain excellent awe-inspiring material from which legends are made of.
An awe not too different from the one that fiends inspire. Their existence being possible by their link to the negative energy plane makes them very similar to Outsiders if not for their dual nature. Some undead creatures actually never lived to begin with, which makes that distinction a bit more difficult to establish.

End of parenthesis.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 07:56:40 AM

... This argument about vampires is a bit weird because they can't have 4 HD in Monster Classes anyway, seeing as how the class is two levels long. @_@

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 08:41:39 AM

I meant the undead in general, not vampires, but I thought your concern with vampires was being able to keep the MoL levels after becoming a vampire?
As in, you already had the two levels.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 08:46:24 AM

Nope; my original concern was that if you take, say, vampire, it is then impossible to gain MoL. I guess in that case the rest of the qualification would be made up of Swarmshifter and Spell-Stitched or something; vampire is just the easiest undead to get examples for.

That you lose 2 HD if turned into an undead somehow is a bit weird, though. I thought losing prerequisites normally just meant you lost use of features? @_@

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on July 30, 2013, 09:55:46 AM

It seems people are geting something confused here.

Monster of Legend is not the "I'm the best at doing what my race is known for doing" prc. That's for what Paragon was created.

Monster of Legend is the "Holy shit since when do ogre mages have napalm blood?" prc. It's suposed to give your character some unique ability that otherwise wouldn't be expected on a being of your race. It's the brutish monster that also knows how to dabble in magic, it's the caster monster that also knows kung-fu, it's the fire elemental that has ice attacks, etc

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 29, 2013, 10:16:52 PM

Vampire is only two levels long. He has at least three that aren't paragon. :p

Implying that Dracula/Alucard has just 20 levels. I'll never get why some people think that everything has to fit in an exact 20 level build.

Anyway he was a king that liked to get his own hands dirty in the frontline so most probably some levels in fighter/warblade.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 10:05:14 AM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 30, 2013, 09:55:46 AM

It seems people are geting something confused here.

Monster of Legend is not the "I'm the best at doing what my race is known for doing" prc. That's for what Paragon was created.

Monster of Legend is the "Holy shit since when do ogre mages have napalm blood?" prc. It's suposed to give your character some unique ability that otherwise wouldn't be expected on a being of your race. It's the brutish monster that also knows how to dabble in magic, it's the caster monster that also knows kung-fu, it's the fire elemental that has ice attacks, etc

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

What about those versions of Dracula that somehow got from 'undead monstrosity' to 'eldritch abomination'? Like the one that went from vampire to embodiment of chaos?

I thought you disliked arbitrary roleplaying restrictions? :huh

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 29, 2013, 10:16:52 PM

Vampire is only two levels long. He has at least three that aren't paragon. :p

Implying that Dracula/Alucard has just 20 levels. I'll never get why some people think that everything has to fit in an exact 20 level build.

Anyway he was a king that liked to get his own hands dirty in the frontline so most probably some levels in fighter/warblade.

Actually, he'd need three levels on top of vampire to have enough HD to qualify for Paragon in the first place. That's why I said... well, that.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Draconas on July 30, 2013, 10:23:29 AM

Quote from: Anomander on July 29, 2013, 11:58:47 PM

For what it's worth, undead creatures do have a soul and sentient ones have the will and some certainly do not lack the ambition to perform deeds worthy of legend. They aren't alive and exist in a different state of being, yes, but they remain excellent awe-inspiring material from which legends are made of.

One thing I always found interesting is that since they are based off negative energy and the positive energy plane is the birthplace of normal souls, their souls are likely either inverted during undying process, or if they get new souls, the souls are 'photonegative' versions of normal souls.
In fact, the fact that negative and positive energies are inherently opposed and undead are much more attuned to the negative energy plane then most living creatures are attuned to the positive energy plane might be why undead kill so much. They literally can't stand being near living creatures, so they tend to remove the living part.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 10:36:13 AM

Quote from: Draconas on July 30, 2013, 10:23:29 AM

Quote from: Anomander on July 29, 2013, 11:58:47 PM

For what it's worth, undead creatures do have a soul and sentient ones have the will and some certainly do not lack the ambition to perform deeds worthy of legend. They aren't alive and exist in a different state of being, yes, but they remain excellent awe-inspiring material from which legends are made of.

One thing I always found interesting is that since they are based off negative energy and the positive energy plane is the birthplace of normal souls, their souls are likely either inverted during undying process, or if they get new souls, the souls are 'photonegative' versions of normal souls.
In fact, the fact that negative and positive energies are inherently opposed and undead are much more attuned to the negative energy plane then most living creatures are attuned to the positive energy plane might be why undead kill so much. They literally can't stand being near living creatures, so they tend to remove the living part.

It gets stranger. Add on Deathless.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Quote

Monster of Legend is the "Holy shit since when do ogre mages have napalm blood?" prc. It's suposed to give your character some unique ability that otherwise wouldn't be expected on a being of your race. It's the brutish monster that also knows how to dabble in magic, it's the caster monster that also knows kung-fu, it's the fire elemental that has ice attacks, etc

That what you decided it was now. It was originally a creature imbued with divine power that is considered to be an archetype of its kind. I don't see how your definition doesn't fit undead creatures, though.

Quote

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

I wonder what gave you the idea that undead creatures are static beings. Their link to the negative energy plane is often a very unstable thing that warps them in the most unexpected ways. They are much more prone to change than most outsiders. They have many templates that apply only to them, one of which is the Evolved Undead that follows the idea that by just existing for a long time undead creatures naturally evolve into more powerful version of themselves. Them sticking or not to their role has nothing to do with the definition you gave that template; having crazy powers not normally acquired by their kind. Like a skeleton getting diamond bones that can somehow breath electricity that builds up in its ribcage.

A succubus turning to Pelor has nothing to do with them suddenly getting napalm blood. It is a complex process that can be linked to the Sanctified template. A legendary vampire gaining sunlight immunity, to use your example, isn't unheard of.

Quote from: Draconas

One thing I always found interesting is that since they are based off negative energy and the positive energy plane is the birthplace of normal souls, their souls are likely either inverted during undying process, or if they get new souls, the souls are 'photonegative' versions of normal souls.
In fact, the fact that negative and positive energies are inherently opposed and undead are much more attuned to the negative energy plane then most living creatures are attuned to the positive energy plane might be why undead kill so much. They literally can't stand being near living creatures, so they tend to remove the living part.

The soul isn't inverted. Undeath is animation of the body by channeling the Negative Energy plane. When that happens the soul of the being is contained, as if within a receptacle, same as it is with most living creatures.
The main difference is that the soul cannot be reached by life-granting effects because of that Negative Energy link. This is why when souls are used as a currency or bargaining material people often just use undead creatures to store them.

I somewhat recall reading that souls were created in the positive energy plane but am not sure where. I am curious now.
The hate of the living is often something they cannot help but feel considering that their channeled plane is in opposition with the positive energy plane, that channels life. Much the same way creatures of the aligned planes are predisposed to hating creatures that origin from planes of the opposite alignment.
When they are sentient, however, the drive is often still there but their sentience makes it possible to get past it and get along.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: VennDygrem on July 30, 2013, 01:28:07 PM

So, where is the Living-Positive plane, Undead-negative plane described? I don't think I've seen that specifically outlined. Also, I always thought undead lacked souls, being simply animated bodies. Death, usually, releases a soul to the afterlife, while resurrecting the dead usually requires the willingness of the soul to return to the body. I guess I can see most intelligent undead keeping their soul. *shrug*

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 01:31:52 PM

Quote from: VennDygrem on July 30, 2013, 01:28:07 PM

So, where is the Living-Positive plane, Undead-negative plane described? I don't think I've seen that specifically outlined. Also, I always thought undead lacked souls, being simply animated bodies. Death, usually, releases a soul to the afterlife, while resurrecting the dead usually requires the willingness of the soul to return to the body. I guess I can see most intelligent undead keeping their soul. *shrug*

I think the fact that even True Resurrection, given that it can bring back Outsiders and Constructs as well as create a body from nothing, requires the destruction of the created undead first rather suggests that the soul is still there one way or the other.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Draconas on July 30, 2013, 01:58:44 PM

Quote from: VennDygrem on July 30, 2013, 01:28:07 PM

So, where is the Living-Positive plane, Undead-negative plane described? I don't think I've seen that specifically outlined. Also, I always thought undead lacked souls, being simply animated bodies. Death, usually, releases a soul to the afterlife, while resurrecting the dead usually requires the willingness of the soul to return to the body. I guess I can see most intelligent undead keeping their soul. *shrug*

Libris Mortis states that Undead have a link to the negative energy plane, and evolved undead is what happens when that link gets bigger.
As for living things, most of them aren't as full of positive energy as undead are of negative energy(shown by the fact that living things don't usually have healing abilities in contrast to undead who cause ability damage and how undead don't die on the negative energy plane while living can die on the positive energy plane) so the positive energy plane is 'merely' where their souls come from, as opposed to something they are continually linked to.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 02:14:17 PM

^
Yep. Undead creatures usually channel the negative energy plane while practically every living creatures do not channel the positive energy plane. That is why the living's hatred of the undead isn't driven by the disparity of their essence more than it is an instinctual reaction to the danger any monster would represent while most undead cannot help but wish them harm. 
Them having a soul is confirmed in a bunch of places. A good one is the Book of Vile Darkness on the matter of souls. There are also cases of undead who aren't dual natured creatures, their soul being their manifestation, mostly in the form of incorporeal undead.

Undead are also not to be confused with animated corpses. That is the difference between sealing a soul back into a body and animate it by linking it to a plane and just animating a soulless corpse as you would any other object.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on July 30, 2013, 03:31:35 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 10:05:14 AM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 30, 2013, 09:55:46 AM

It seems people are geting something confused here.

Monster of Legend is not the "I'm the best at doing what my race is known for doing" prc. That's for what Paragon was created.

Monster of Legend is the "Holy shit since when do ogre mages have napalm blood?" prc. It's suposed to give your character some unique ability that otherwise wouldn't be expected on a being of your race. It's the brutish monster that also knows how to dabble in magic, it's the caster monster that also knows kung-fu, it's the fire elemental that has ice attacks, etc

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

What about those versions of Dracula that somehow got from 'undead monstrosity' to 'eldritch abomination'? Like the one that went from vampire to embodiment of chaos?

God, pseudonatural creature, chaos, take your pick.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 10:05:14 AM

I thought you disliked arbitrary roleplaying restrictions? :huh

Thing is, I don't consider it arbitary.

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Quote

Monster of Legend is the "Holy shit since when do ogre mages have napalm blood?" prc. It's suposed to give your character some unique ability that otherwise wouldn't be expected on a being of your race. It's the brutish monster that also knows how to dabble in magic, it's the caster monster that also knows kung-fu, it's the fire elemental that has ice attacks, etc

That what you decided it was now. It was originally a creature imbued with divine power that is considered to be an archetype of its kind. I don't see how your definition doesn't fit undead creatures, though.

I decided that back at the first page:

Quote from: oslecamo on May 23, 2012, 03:16:16 PM

I don't really want to tie options to any kind of monster. That's for what the Paragon is for. Legendary Monster is for those "Holy crap how did it do that?" moments.

So I'll just adapt those a little so they're more "generic". Added them to the bottom of the list, let me know how they are!

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Quote

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

I wonder what gave you the idea that undead creatures are static beings. Their link to the negative energy plane is often a very unstable thing that warps them in the most unexpected ways. They are much more prone to change than most outsiders. They have many templates that apply only to them, one of which is the Evolved Undead that follows the idea that by just existing for a long time undead creatures naturally evolve into more powerful version of themselves.

And even more templates specifically don't work on undeads/constructs while working on pretty much everybody else.

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Them sticking or not to their role has nothing to do with the definition you gave that template; having crazy powers not normally acquired by their kind. Like a skeleton getting diamond bones that can somehow breath electricity that builds up in its ribcage.

If it has a solid body  but no traces of organic matter, it's not really an undead anymore is it?

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

A succubus turning to Pelor has nothing to do with them suddenly getting napalm blood. It is a complex process that can be linked to the Sanctified template. A legendary vampire gaining sunlight immunity, to use your example, isn't unheard of.

Actually, in modern media you'll have to search far and wide to find a single "vampire" that still gives a crap about sunlight.

I don't give a crap about such "vampires" either.

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 02:14:17 PM

Undead are also not to be confused with animated corpses. That is the difference between sealing a soul back into a body and animate it by linking it to a plane and just animating a soulless corpse as you would any other object.

They're known as flesh golems and animated objects. You know, the ones that don't specifically block the people used up in te process from being reincarnated.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 30, 2013, 03:31:35 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 10:05:14 AM

I thought you disliked arbitrary roleplaying restrictions? :huh

Thing is, I don't consider it arbitary.

Sentient undead, complete with the same souls they had, and fully capable of all the same creation, development, and progression as a living creature cannot become Legendary because they lack a pulse. Meanwhile, a mindless worm could, entirely by accident.

As for constructs, there's an entire game that revolves around such things' striving towards a goal. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PrometheanTheCreated) There's no reason an intelligent golem shouldn't be able to become legendary or improve--otherwise, every construct class on here should forbid gaining non-construct HD levels.

It looks arbitrary to me. 'Don't have a soul' doesn't work; intelligent undead do. 'Can't do new stuff' would forbid all class advancement because it's learning new abilities.

Quote

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Quote

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

I wonder what gave you the idea that undead creatures are static beings. Their link to the negative energy plane is often a very unstable thing that warps them in the most unexpected ways. They are much more prone to change than most outsiders. They have many templates that apply only to them, one of which is the Evolved Undead that follows the idea that by just existing for a long time undead creatures naturally evolve into more powerful version of themselves.

And many templates specifically don't work on undeads while working on pretty much everybody else.

Are we counting inherited templates? Because they work perfectly fine when the creature is born, but not much else.

Quote

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Them sticking or not to their role has nothing to do with the definition you gave that template; having crazy powers not normally acquired by their kind. Like a skeleton getting diamond bones that can somehow breath electricity that builds up in its ribcage.

If it has a solid body  but no traces of organic matter, it's not really an undead anymore is it?

Shade? Meant Shadow, but they're incorporeal. Hm...

Ghosts, strictly speaking, physically exist on the Ethereal, for a start.

But what about a skeleton that's more diamond-encrusted than made of diamond?

Quote

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

A succubus turning to Pelor has nothing to do with them suddenly getting napalm blood. It is a complex process that can be linked to the Sanctified template. A legendary vampire gaining sunlight immunity, to use your example, isn't unheard of.

Actually, in modern media you'll have to search far and wide to find a single "vampire" that still gives a crap about sunlight.

I don't give a crap about such "vampires" either.

I dunno, they can be awesome. (http://static.tumblr.com/hclemt5/omwmbkiah/picture_346.jpg) :lmao

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on July 30, 2013, 04:03:41 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 30, 2013, 03:31:35 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 10:05:14 AM

I thought you disliked arbitrary roleplaying restrictions? :huh

Thing is, I don't consider it arbitary.

Sentient undead, complete with the same souls they had, and fully capable of all the same creation, development, and progression as a living creature cannot become Legendary because they lack a pulse. Meanwhile, a mindless worm could, entirely by accident.

You mean that undeads aren't automatically better at everything than the living? Shocking I know.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

As for constructs, there's an entire game that revolves around such things' striving towards a goal. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PrometheanTheCreated) There's no reason an intelligent golem shouldn't be able to become legendary or improve--otherwise, every construct class on here should forbid gaining non-construct HD levels.

You ask too much of me to work with White Wolf material. (http://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/burn-down-whitewolf/)

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

It looks arbitrary to me. 'Don't have a soul' doesn't work; intelligent undead do. 'Can't do new stuff' would forbid all class advancement because it's learning new abilities.

There's a significant diference between "can learn new stuff" and "You're so hotblooded that now napalm courses trough your veins".

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

Quote

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Quote

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

I wonder what gave you the idea that undead creatures are static beings. Their link to the negative energy plane is often a very unstable thing that warps them in the most unexpected ways. They are much more prone to change than most outsiders. They have many templates that apply only to them, one of which is the Evolved Undead that follows the idea that by just existing for a long time undead creatures naturally evolve into more powerful version of themselves.

And many templates specifically don't work on undeads while working on pretty much everybody else.

Are we counting inherited templates? Because they work perfectly fine when the creature is born, but not much else.

Several undead types auto-discard any templates you had beforehand.

And ironically enough, undead-turning templates don't work on undeads themselves.

You're already a vampire? Ooppss, can't become a lich!

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

Quote

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Them sticking or not to their role has nothing to do with the definition you gave that template; having crazy powers not normally acquired by their kind. Like a skeleton getting diamond bones that can somehow breath electricity that builds up in its ribcage.

If it has a solid body  but no traces of organic matter, it's not really an undead anymore is it?

Shade? Meant Shadow, but they're incorporeal. Hm...

Ghosts, strictly speaking, physically exist on the Ethereal, for a start.

By that definition, everything is corporeal in some place.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

Quote

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

A succubus turning to Pelor has nothing to do with them suddenly getting napalm blood. It is a complex process that can be linked to the Sanctified template. A legendary vampire gaining sunlight immunity, to use your example, isn't unheard of.

Actually, in modern media you'll have to search far and wide to find a single "vampire" that still gives a crap about sunlight.

I don't give a crap about such "vampires" either.

I dunno, they can be awesome. (http://static.tumblr.com/hclemt5/omwmbkiah/picture_346.jpg) :lmao

Alucard may not burn under the sun, but he states to quite dislike it (thus the shades), meaning he does gives a crap. :p

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 04:18:50 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 30, 2013, 04:03:41 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 30, 2013, 03:31:35 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 10:05:14 AM

I thought you disliked arbitrary roleplaying restrictions? :huh

Thing is, I don't consider it arbitary.

Sentient undead, complete with the same souls they had, and fully capable of all the same creation, development, and progression as a living creature cannot become Legendary because they lack a pulse. Meanwhile, a mindless worm could, entirely by accident.

You mean that undeads aren't automatically better at everything than the living? Shocking I know.

Um, no, this makes undead arbitrarily inferior to the living, for all their monstrousness, because they can't achieve the same.

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

As for constructs, there's an entire game that revolves around such things' striving towards a goal. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PrometheanTheCreated) There's no reason an intelligent golem shouldn't be able to become legendary or improve--otherwise, every construct class on here should forbid gaining non-construct HD levels.

You ask too much of me to work with White Wolf material. (http://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/burn-down-whitewolf/)

I'm not asking you to work with White Wolf. I'm using it as an example. The only other constructs I can think of at the moment all come from Nanoha, and about half of them are varying shades of Living Construct, with only the Unison Devices being outright artificial.

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

It looks arbitrary to me. 'Don't have a soul' doesn't work; intelligent undead do. 'Can't do new stuff' would forbid all class advancement because it's learning new abilities.

There's a significant diference between "can learn new stuff" and "You're so hotblooded that now napalm courses trough your veins".

Constructs can be hotblooded too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFppdq6vEPg)

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

Quote

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Quote

Undeads and constructs are however static beings. They stick to their roles and don't change. Even a succubus may turn to Pelor's light and become a champion of good and law, but Dracula certainly isn't going to take sunbaths out of leisure, instead being the best at being a vampire-but still a vampire at the end of the day night.

I wonder what gave you the idea that undead creatures are static beings. Their link to the negative energy plane is often a very unstable thing that warps them in the most unexpected ways. They are much more prone to change than most outsiders. They have many templates that apply only to them, one of which is the Evolved Undead that follows the idea that by just existing for a long time undead creatures naturally evolve into more powerful version of themselves.

And many templates specifically don't work on undeads while working on pretty much everybody else.

Are we counting inherited templates? Because they work perfectly fine when the creature is born, but not much else.

Several undead types auto-discard any templates you had beforehand.

And ironically enough, undead-turning templates don't work on undeads themselves.

You're already a vampire? Ooppss, can't become a lich!

That last part makes perfect sense. You're already a human? Can't be a dwarf. Already a cat? Can't be an eagle. Undead is a type, not a race. :eh

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

Quote

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

Them sticking or not to their role has nothing to do with the definition you gave that template; having crazy powers not normally acquired by their kind. Like a skeleton getting diamond bones that can somehow breath electricity that builds up in its ribcage.

If it has a solid body  but no traces of organic matter, it's not really an undead anymore is it?

Shade? Meant Shadow, but they're incorporeal. Hm...

Ghosts, strictly speaking, physically exist on the Ethereal, for a start.

By that definition, everything is corporeal in some place.

But what about a diamond-encrusted skeleton rather than one made of diamond?

Quote

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 03:43:03 PM

Quote

Quote from: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 11:23:45 AM

A succubus turning to Pelor has nothing to do with them suddenly getting napalm blood. It is a complex process that can be linked to the Sanctified template. A legendary vampire gaining sunlight immunity, to use your example, isn't unheard of.

Actually, in modern media you'll have to search far and wide to find a single "vampire" that still gives a crap about sunlight.

I don't give a crap about such "vampires" either.

I dunno, they can be awesome. (http://static.tumblr.com/hclemt5/omwmbkiah/picture_346.jpg) :lmao

Alucard may not burn under the sun, but he states to quite dislike it (thus the shades), meaning he does gives a crap. :p

He's also drinking wine whilst crossing a moving body of water and nowhere near dirt  from his homeland. In sunlight. Guy doesn't care about his supposed weaknesses.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Anomander on July 30, 2013, 04:20:02 PM

Quote

Legendary Monster is for those "Holy crap how did it do that?" moments

I don't see how that supports the idea that undead creatures cannot be legendary monsters.

Quote

And even more templates specifically don't work on undeads/constructs while working on pretty much everybody else.

It doesn't change that my statement is quite valid. Undead creatures are not static and come in many flavors. Their very nature makes them easy to warp and subjective to produce unusual specimens.
And as Raineh said, most of the templates you speak of are inherited anyway, which must be acquired before they can become undead. And for those you have a tendency to make them available anyway via rituals or some other mean.

Quote

Several undead types auto-discard any templates you had beforehand.

Those are mostly templates changing the body into an entire new creature, which makes sense that the entire creature is discarded to make the new one. Usually those are meant to make minion-material undead that aren't meant to be played by PCs.

Quote

And ironically enough, undead-turning templates don't work on undeads themselves.

While some combination being impossible might make sense (skeleton+zombie?), I agree that some should technically be possible and perhaps weren't because the devs kept to the pattern that a template granting undeath should require the base creature to be alive. Still, you do not limit yourself to such constraint so nothing stops you from allowing vampires or any other undead creature from becoming a lich.

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If it has a solid body  but no traces of organic matter, it's not really an undead anymore is it?

Your only counterargument is nitpicking at an example? If you must, I'll remind you that bones are made of carbon, which is the same element from which diamond is made. I doesn't change much. Monster of Legend already makes it possible to change your body to weird stuff for aesthetic purposes only.
Either way, my point stands; them sticking to their role or not isn't relevant in whether they can be legendary or not. Getting crazy powers normally unseen by their kind is very possible to that creature type

Quote

I don't give a crap about such "vampires" either.

Me neither. So what? You used sun-light and vampire for your example - I refer to undead creatures in general even though people here mostly think of legendary vampires. A vampire could have a different crazy ability unrelated to sunlight. Like lava blood or whatever.

Quote

They're known as flesh golems and animated objects. You know, the ones that don't specifically block the people used up in te process from being reincarnated.

I do know. I was just giving information on the matter of walking bodies with a soul compared to walking undead bodies with one since the topic was brought up. Wasn't particularly directed for your attention.
Thanks for listing examples.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Threadnaught on July 30, 2013, 08:40:39 PM

Quote from: oslecamo on July 30, 2013, 09:55:46 AM

Implying that Dracula/Alucard has just 20 levels. I'll never get why some people think that everything has to fit in an exact 20 level build.

Calculated maximum level for Human limitations, is level 5.
Anything above level 5 is at least super human, by level 12, you've got a one man army. Something that can take on hundreds of people at once.
At level 20, you have a god. Above that is all kinds of ridiculous.

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 10:05:14 AM

What about those versions of Dracula that somehow got from 'undead monstrosity' to 'eldritch abomination'? Like the one that went from vampire to embodiment of chaos?

You mean like Castlevania? He does transform a lot, I think the Pseudonatural Creature and Titanic Creature classes could really help a Castlevania style Dracula build. Don't forget his Warlock levels for all the Fireballs, Meteor Swarms and Summon (Bat) Swarms he'll be throwing at Yurius Bermondo and the like.

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 08:45:46 PM

Quote from: Threadnaught on July 30, 2013, 08:40:39 PM

Quote from: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2013, 10:05:14 AM

What about those versions of Dracula that somehow got from 'undead monstrosity' to 'eldritch abomination'? Like the one that went from vampire to embodiment of chaos?

You mean like Castlevania? He does transform a lot, I think the Pseudonatural Creature and Titanic Creature classes could really help a Castlevania style Dracula build. Don't forget his Warlock levels for all the Fireballs, Meteor Swarms and Summon (Bat) Swarms he'll be throwing at Yurius Bermondo and the like.

There's also the sheer immortality, not to mention being a knight or some such before a vampire.

Though there's also Hellsing Alucard, who simply contains the soul of absolutely every person he's ever drained of blood, is basically immune to standard vampire weaknesses, and is in general frankly ludicrous. Just look at the full list. (http://hellsing.wikia.com/wiki/Alucard#Powers_and_abilities) Or (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T0z-xMp908) these. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtN7XTGBDiQ)

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Leviathan on August 09, 2014, 03:18:32 PM

Does this actually change your type to Outsider, or just give you the Outsider traits? For example, if I start as a Plant, does taking the first level of this class make me:

• a Plant,
• a Plant (Augmented Plant), or
• an Outsider (Augmented Plant)?

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: Rakoa on August 09, 2014, 03:30:06 PM

Can the Legendary Skill ability that grants Spell Turning be turned off voluntarily to allow beneficial effects through, or to let a spell through that the Monster of Legend can resist anyway (for example, scorching ray if immune to Fire)?

Title: Re: Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)
Post by: oslecamo on August 20, 2014, 12:28:27 PM

Spellturning doesn't work on area effects nor touch range stuff, so most buffs will still get trough. Letting stuff trough that you're already immune is kinda too good for my tastes.

Quote from: Leviathan on August 09, 2014, 03:18:32 PM

Does this actually change your type to Outsider, or just give you the Outsider traits? For example, if I start as a Plant, does taking the first level of this class make me:

• a Plant,
• a Plant (Augmented Plant), or
• an Outsider (Augmented Plant)?

Middle one.