"Unkillable PC"

[ariasderros]

I've been thinking about what would make a PC unkillable under most normal circumstances.
This thinking started because of a campaign I'm a player in. In this campaign, while I'm only on my second character after about 22 sessions, the average player character in the campaign has a life expectancy of about 4 sessions.
To this end there should be the following goals:

• level around ten-ish for the target
  
• bonus points for being playable at more levels than that. And that is key, still being playable, it is all well and good to be able to take everything thrown at you, but it doesn't matter if you can't contribute anything else to the team.
  
• No Flaws, or Traits, but LA buyoff allowed, as well as bloodlines.
  
• CO is the purpose, but lets not go into any of the higher levels of TO. By higher levels of TO, I mean actually being unkillable. Immunity to damage, or effects from damage, being immune to everything under the sun, et alli. Something that the rest of the party can rely one to be the linebacker and / or quarterback for the party, not something that tests the DM's ability to throw stuff at him.

To this end, I couldn't help but think of trying to do more with builds like Dwarfang Trouserpants & Fistbeard Beardfist. But trying to be even more defensive than that. The reason for thinking of them is because of the emphasis on Constitution, which make your Fortitude saves go up (#1 way to lose a PC is a timely failing of Fort), combined with regular refilling of HP. The fact that those builds get a very high Con score also means that they have more "wiggle room" in their HP before they have to worry about their refill rate of said HP. And Steadfast Determination with a high Con score means they have good Fort, and Will saves, with Will being only just less important than Fort for taking your character out of the fight, this is great. And of course you also have the whole "don't auto-fail Fort on a Nat. 1" feature is a freaking lifesaver in a very, very real sense.

First thought-step is Race.

(click to show/hide)

Allowing Drag #306 Racial Variants to apply to non-PHB races.
Mongrelfolk + Feral + Aquatic + Amphibious + Arctic. Con bonus of +8
At level 3, first buyoff Feral's LA, then get Lolth-touched, then get that LA bought off, then get Mineralized, then buy off that LA.
Strength +12; Constitution + 16.
Level bonuses would go to Con, obviously. Did not use a bloodline due to the fact of all of the XP spent already.

Second Part is feats

(click to show/hide)

Basic ones at 1, 3, and 6:
Endurance + Steadfast Determination + Poison Healer. Ninth level feat is open at this point.
Serve Elder Evil for feats (given here is just up to ten) (Yes, you've betrayed Lolth at this point, good luck with that):
Willing Deformity [Prerequisite]; Deformity (Madness) [Immune to mind affecting, yay]; and Deformity (Obese)
Use the Hole to gain Iron Will.

So we've got +18 Con at this point (assuming level 10). Assume starting base Con of 18 from point buy or array, for Constitution of 36. Con to Fort and Will, and Poison Healer. All of this is on top of the Fast Healing from Feral. Aquatic is for really fast Swim Speed, Amphibious is to breath either air or water, and Mineral Warrior also grants DR 8/Adamantine and a Burrow speed, giving the PC some very impressive durability as well as some decent movement modes. Topped off with immunity to Mind-Affecting Effects for the sheer glory of it all. Fortitude is +13, not counting levels, Will is +15, not counting levels, and Reflex is in the toilet (a lot of Dex penalties above, assume that the person still has all of the dumped stats at 8-10 anyway).

Third part, riding off of our Poison Healer feat, is our poisonous pet.

(click to show/hide)

I don't really know what to use here. The typical small snakes in your pants thing might not work with the DR from Mineral, since they can't pierce it, and no damage = no poison. Additionally, they might still be vulnerable to certain area attacks. If Horde Beetles or Hellwasps didn't deal Con damage when burrowing, then they'd be perfect. Idea's here would be more than welcome.

Fourth Part is the actual class levels.

(click to show/hide)

Okay, on the one hand, we have a huge Constitution score, which just screams DFA, but at the same time, there is a lot of other abilities that can still be picked up.

Survivor (SS PrC) is a quick way to pick up Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Improved Evasion, DR /5-, in that order, with all good saves, but absolutely no BAB. And with a Reflex of crap, Imp Evasion is a really nice thing to have.

Mettle is another good ability to get, but meeting the prerequisites for some of the PrC's might not be easy. Espesially if using the Survivor, since the most common Pre-req for Mettle-granting classes seems to be BAB. Still, once you get to +5, all that would be needed then would be a dip into Pious Templar to get this. Easy-peasy.

Pride Domain is awesome too, but the relevant part of that could just as easily be picked up from the feat Planar Touchstone (Catalogs) without investing a level. The ninth level feat, maybe?

Another point to consider is that with such a high Constitution and Strength, you could be a really great Warblade. This has the added bonus of the fact that you can even still gain partial credit for levels spent on gaining those other abilities. As far as useful: if you're level 10, you could easily have a total of +38 before you roll for Insightful Strike damage. Which isn't bad in most parties.
And with being an adept, it becomes possible to utilize the Legacy Hack to really catch up with your maneuver progression. A quick explanation of what this means is that you get + 1/2 your class levels not in a particular adept class your your IL in that class, thus Legacy Champion (and Uncanny Trickster) progress your adept IL at 1/2 rate at the levels that do not advance your adept class, and 1+1/2 rate when advancing your adept class.

Thoughts, opinions, assistance, and builds would all be more than welcome

[linklord231]

A Cleric/Ordained Champion could Persist Delay Death and Death Ward (and a lot of the other "Fuck you, I'm immune" spells) and gets Diehard as a bonus feat.  You could even take Shape Soulmeld (Rageclaws) to be able to take full round actions while disabled, if Freedom of Movement doesn't work.

Regarding Poison Healer:  surely there's a low-DC contact poison out there you could shove down your pants?  Or wear an inhaled poison in a censer around your neck?

[sirpercival]

Here's my suggestions:

1. Race = dragonborn warforged.  A whole bunch of immunities that you don't need to spend anything on, and +4 con.
2. Class = binder/archivist/divine anima mage/something for turn undead.  Access to the best spell list in the game.  Free persists.
3. Feats: improved binding, extend, persist, dmm persist, martial study (shadow jaunt).
4. Spells: Favor of the martyr, death ward, delay death, beastland ferocity, mind blank


Done.  You don't even care about AMF because Shadow Jaunt is (Ex).

EDIT: By the way, if you're worried about Mind Blank because it's 8th level, you can bind Haures (EBL 12) for immunity to mind-affecting.  Or, you can take Insane Defiance for extra laughs.

[ariasderros]

Firstly, about the magic, I am well aware that you can get to full fledged twice-betrayer status with spells. I'm trying to build this so that: the character itself is what is tougher than crap, not just gear and / or temporary (even persisted is temporary) effects; it not relying on T1 classes ability to fiat reality; being playable even by people who don't want the hassle of going through spell-lists. Some casting is fine, but I'm trying to make this guy to not rely on the casting, and still be tough tough tough.

More Fistbeard & Trouserfang being optimized, less Twice-Betrayer immunity to everything = I-Win buttoning.

On race being dragonborn warforged: Dragonborn loses most racial abilities, which would include the Feral's Fast Healing, and Warforged properties grant immunity to poison, which would negate the benefit from Poison Healer. So DB WF + no independent constant healing. Which is one of the main features here. To say nothing of the fact that Mongrelfolk already get +4 Con. Don't get me wrong though, I wouldn't snub Feral + Incarnate + other templates, but DB would still lose useful abilities from inherited templates, plus any acquired templates that come before.

Contact poison would be good if there is a producer of it. Just having one dose of it would eventually just have that dose ruled to either already have done its damage, or lose its potency over time. Same indifference. Inhaled poison too would be ruled to disperse / burn up w/o a source. Which still leaves the issue of having a source that is safe, secure, and reliable.

[SorO_Lost]

TO
Any Tiny Race Sorcerer 5 / Sand Shaper 1
Making a 2ftx2ftx1in wall takes 0 minutes.
Free action cover when ever you want!

***

CO, and after some consideration
Monk 7 / Binder 2 / Warblade 1, Dark Moon Disciple's  "you can't hit me", Binder's ability damage healing, Diamond Mind's save boosts and Iron Heart's IHS. Bonus points if Troll-Blooded (you hate the sun anyway) and have Spellfire Welder.

You're just short of an Extra Ordinary Spell Aiming Pale Master, or near total immunity to damage and SR checking spells.

***

Just checked Poison Healer and better read your second post, Hellreaver basically has Fast Healing 20 if your idea of defense is HP related. Crusader and/or Warblade is a good lead into it too. Sounds weak enough to be appealing, and it certainly isn't a caster.

[Jackinthegreen]

I'm guessing you'd consider the pugilist's (Dragon 310 fighter variant) Shake it Off + a warforged with Improved Resiliency to be TO territory?

[ariasderros]

I'm guessing you'd consider the pugilist's (Dragon 310 fighter variant) Shake it Off + a warforged with Improved Resiliency to be TO territory?

Less an issue of TO, more an issue of so poorly written that it completely open to interpretation. But yes, the immune to damage at level one thing is in YBIYBI for a reason. It goes where all the rest of the TO goes.

TO
Any Tiny Race Sorcerer 5 / Sand Shaper 1
Making a 2ftx2ftx1in wall takes 0 minutes.
Free action cover when ever you want!

Garra - the class. I love that PrC so very much.

CO, and after some consideration
Monk 7 / Binder 2 / Warblade 1, Dark Moon Disciple's  "you can't hit me", Binder's ability damage healing, Diamond Mind's save boosts and Iron Heart's IHS. Bonus points if Troll-Blooded (you hate the sun anyway) and have Spellfire Welder.

You're just short of an Extra Ordinary Spell Aiming Pale Master, or near total immunity to damage and SR checking spells.

While I like the idea of welding things with spellfire, I've never been able to use that in FR, and it has never existed IME outside of FR.
I had never noticed that ACF for Monk before. Very nice.
I would actually tap Pious Templar before going into Warblade, so that the character could resist spells that hit an area and have effects even on a passed save. Undying Way Monk Gets the Endurance prerequisite feat for Steadfast for free. Some source of a bonus feat (F. Pact) and there's your prereqs for PT.
Any reason for the second level of Binder?

Just checked Poison Healer and better read your second post, Hellreaver basically has Fast Healing 20 if your idea of defense is HP related. Crusader and/or Warblade is a good lead into it too. Sounds weak enough to be appealing, and it certainly isn't a caster.

It isn't so much that my idea of defense is HP related, as it is the fact that eventually something is going to hit, and it may well hit hard. Thusly, you need to be able to survive if and when that happens. Imagine the monk build you put forth going against the Inevitable Nightmare using a dorje of Touchsight. He will know what square to hit thanks to Touchsight, has a really good chance of hitting your AC thanks to Deep Impact + being awesome, has a better chance than normal to hit you despite concealment thanks to Blind-Fight, and will likely only need to hit you twice unless you are cheating your HP recovery.
Hellreaver has its own problems here. It introduces Charisma as a good thing, which is a stat that has been otherwise dumped, therefore introducing MAD. It has to be Good, which means no Deformity (Madness), and no F. Pacts if that route is desirable. It does get mettle, but it has poor Fort saves. And most of all, it is a class that hogs down its swift and immediate actions more than adepts or bards.
That + the powerful importance of Fort saves Vs. random area effects in games I play is why I was looking at optimizing Trouserpants. It isn't just about the HP, but HP is a mode of defense that should be minded. Plus, there's always the roleplay effect of having a building land on you, and just walking out of the rubble like nothing happened.



I'm going to amend the OP to be clearer by adding in a couple points.

[Tenebrous Apostle]

There is some far-fetched theory that I've been trying to put in practice for a while.. Maybe you can do It for me. Find a blood fiend from FF (Planar binding it would be the simplest but also the most difficult way since It is unlikely to fail It's will save), drain.. excuse me "damage" it's wisom, will or whatever nececery to make it fail It's second will save (you can turn it if you're a cleric or dread necro.. maybe) and ride it via Magic Jar. Then cast Imprison possesor on you. Permanent awesome vessel immune to death from almost anything. When the blood fiend reaches 0hp it transforms to gaseous form and unless targeted with dismissal, dispel evil or holy word it can recover by resting for an hour anywere. I think It preatty much narrows down the ways anything can kill you..

[Captnq]

Uhhh.... teamwork?

My players are just about unkillable when they work together. Individually I might be able to kill them, but give them 3 rounds and they are a juggernaught. What, you can't depend on the rest of the players?

[ariasderros]

Uhhh.... teamwork?

My players are just about unkillable when they work together. Individually I might be able to kill them, but give them 3 rounds and they are a juggernaught. What, you can't depend on the rest of the players?

Your fun is not better than their fun, especially when your fun isn't possible for them. The kinds of tricks we know about here, and the kind of ability we have to play various classes we have here, is not universal. We are a CO community. We sit at the top of the Ivory Tower. Some of the play groups I'm in are at close to the same echelon. Some of the groups I play in (while I like the people, and they are good role-players), are chained in the basement of the Ivory Tower.

(click to show/hide)

Note, I almost always end up playing characters that are very teamwork-centered (usually bards, or buffing focused casters).
This is not for me to use, but rather one of the others.

I do try to help them figure it out as much as I can. In real life, most of them have a lot going on, whether real life, or other hobbies. Thus one of the problems with their building is that they don't think things through all the way. Which is what has them falling into the traps of the Ivory Tower. I help them out as I can, as does the DM of that group. But when they only have so much time per week to spend on this hobby, there's no reason I can't have my notes, ideas, and suggestions pre-loaded for when it is needed. Especially when it has been a problem before with people asking me what they should do to manage things, and I didn't have an answer for them that they could utilize very well.
E.G. :
"I want to be a summoner of some kind"
"Malconvoker" (proceed to help build the character's mechanics with the person)
Three sessions later, despite having the complete summoning lists in front of him, and the list of SLA's from the summon monster line, he died, because he didn't know what to do. He just kept summoning the same things time and again (was level 8, summoning Howlers, which are good, just not all the time every time). And that isn't how to play that class / role well. And he ended up dying due to not playing to the character's strengths. Because going through those lists while other stuff is going on in-game is distracting, going through them at the time of use is time-consuming, and going through them when not in the time-slot for gaming for the month isn't feasible when life doesn't let you.
We've got another Malcon in the group now though. Haven't seen him in a fight yet.

***

Interesting thought. If someone uses that I'll let you know.

[DavidWL]

A bit of thread Necromancy.


Necropolitan
Given the degree of optimization you are talking about, a tweaked necropolitan would have great power:
+2 HP per level, +2 Profane bonus on attack rolls and saving throws Desecrate plus evil altar.
+2 HP per level, +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity, Dread Necromancer's Undead Mastery class feature.
+2 HP per level, +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength (redundant) - Corpsecrafter
+4 Turn Resistance, Bolster Resistance feat from the Corpsecrafter line.
+1d6 Cold damage with all your natural weapons, Deathly Chill feat - Corpsecrafter
+2 Natural armor, Hardened Flesh feat - Corpsecrafter
+4 Initiative, +10 ft. land speed, Nimble Bones feat - Corpsecrafter
Corposecrafter is questionable
Magic in the blood to use Spell Like Abilities more often!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147848"

Divine Minion
Divine Minion + Dragon wild shape
* Dragon Wildshape (All! Ex and Su) - Shadow Dragon - (Young to Young Adult) - flight, AC, shadowblend
* Trappings of the beast (3 piece set MIC) +1 to lvl
* Amulet of wildshape (Magic of Faerun IIRC) +4 to lvl 40,000
http://web.archive.org/web/20080919131238/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-404381

Telthor
incorporael + incorporateal touch attacks but needs fast healing or regeneration
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3287.20

Sylph
* Greater Invisibility, Flight, CL = HD+4

Sharn
* Regeneration, etc.

Best,
David

[altpersona]

daves necro sorta beat me to it...

but does already being killed dq you from the challenge?

i would think ghost or lich.

i had thought, but dont recall how, that a dragonborn kobald could go dracolich real easily.

[parinho7]

I'm trying to build this so that: the character itself is what is tougher than crap, not just gear and / or temporary (even persisted is temporary) effects

Vow of Poverty?

[phaedrusxy]

Dracolich. Only prereq seems to be that the target is "an evil dragon". So evil dragonwrought kobolds should qualify. It requires drinking a magical potion which costs 5,000 gp, though. (link in template)

[altpersona]

i read back over the draconomicaon template today,

and you are correct.

i had thought it was updated somewhere with other reqs...

anyway, add swarm shifter for more goods. but its a big LA hit overall

[Eviltedzies]

A Bard/Warblade focusing on using Perform: Weapon Drill combined with Undersong (SpC) to swap Concentration checks for Perform checks can make some relatively high saves even at lower level. The downside is the short duration on Undersong. If you can find a way to Persist it you are golden.

Perform: Weapon Drill adds half your BaB to the check as well as gets boosted by various combat feats. Throw in a masterwork weapon and your checks start going higher and higher.

Hypotehtical Bard 1/Warblade 4 with a 20 Charisma starting thanks to race:
Base Ranks: +8
BAB: +2
Charisma: +5
Masterwork Weapon: +2
Weapon Focus: +2
Quick Draw (Bonus): +2
-------------------------
= +21 to Perform: Weapon Drill

You can use that for your save boosting maneuvers as well as Insightful Strike to add some damage in there.

[phaedrusxy]

Another way to get massive saves is to be a martial adept with the saving throw counters and the Steady (Steadfast?) Concentration feat. An added bonus is you can also use this for attacks via some maneuvers.

[zook1shoe]

Frenzied Berserker has lots of potential. Make sure to get Deformity (madness) and maybe some constant items for other immunities (shurikens can get broken when using semi-custom unique versions, ex. +1 morphing shuriken -> buckler-axe -> epic energy immunity or luck blade 1 wish for CHEAP)

[SorO_Lost]

2nd Party Material, Tenacious Soul out of Dragonlance's Holy Order of the Stars.

The Template is obtained when the gods and deities them selves refuse to let you die and only the actions of a deity can release you. You gain +2 Con/Cha, Fast Healing 2, Immunity to [Death] Spells and Energy Drain, anything that kills or would otherwise destroy you simply kills you for 2d4 weeks with a successful level check vs DC 16. Effects on par with Wish or Miracle delay returning for +1d4 weeks. All for +4 LA and one heck of a DM agreed to backstory.

[phaedrusxy]

2nd Party Material, Tenacious Soul out of Dragonlance's Holy Order of the Stars.

The Template is obtained when the gods and deities them selves refuse to let you die and only the actions of a deity can release you. You gain +2 Con/Cha, Fast Healing 2, Immunity to [Death] Spells and Energy Drain, anything that kills or would otherwise destroy you simply kills you for 2d4 weeks with a successful level check vs DC 16. Effects on par with Wish or Miracle delay returning for +1d4 weeks. All for +4 LA and one heck of a DM agreed to backstory.