Author Topic: Creating An Up-To-Date List of Pun-Pun's Best Abilities and (Nigh-)Infinities  (Read 123777 times)

Offline ariasderros

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Guys.
Divine Creation uses the Greater Create Object formula, but merely allows for magic items instead of just mundane.
You can get Greater Create Object to have no rest period for the creation up to 300gp.
Using this ability is a full-round without a rest period.
There are magic items worth less than 300gp.
Pun-Pun has copies of himself that he can give items to.
Pun-Pun has Arcane Generosity.
Pun-Pun has NI Full-round actions.

1) Full-round action, create Feather Token.
2) Readied standard action (move?), give token to Copy-Pun, gain 6XP
3) repeat steps 1&2 twenty-one million times all at once, become level 500, advancing every base class up, advance every PrC.

Since this is all happening at once, due to NI full-round actions and NI readied actions, this can actually be any level desired.

Pun-Pun has NI XP. Thus NI class levels. And can increase them to a NI extent as an Immediate Action with Celerity + Time Stop + Greater Celerity + etc. + etc. + etc. + et alli.

There is no way to gain True Infinite XP.
Any method of gaining XP would have to be defined in order to be awarded, you cannot hit infinite in any defined way.
The ways in which Pun-Pun hits TI for things is because of manipulating areas that are undefined.
XP has to be, must be, defined in order to be awarded, or else it cannot be awarded.
Infinite CL?
Only nigh infinite, so it won't kill a truly infinite amount of enemies.

An additional problem with killing infinite creatures is that you're too high ECL for them to grant any experience points. If you instead treat everything as a single encounter, modifying the CR accordingly, you will be too low ECL to gain any experience, or you will only gain one non-infinite sum.
This is my supporting point. CR =< ECL-6 or CR=> ECL+6 has no defined XP, thus you cannot say that you do gain it.
Even though the DMG basically states that the DM would have to Ad Hoc it in order to award it. But if you went with that, then:
A) It would be based on difficulty of being overcome. Pun-Pun had no difficulty = no XP.
B) If DM wanted to award, then the encounter must be quantified to be figured. Then would be figured. Then XP would be awarded.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 05:25:33 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Halinn

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@Bastian: that's where things like Whirlwind Attack come into play.  If you have truly infinite reach, you can attack an infinite number of creatures with a single action (you attack every creature within reach).

@Halinn: If you assume an infinite universe with infinite energy (otherwise it's not a true infinite universe), then the probability of anything occurring approaches 1.  You'd be right in that the probability is not 1, but it approaches 1.  So yes, there would be an infinite number of those planets, spaced infinitely far apart, and infinitely close together.  It gets weird.  The basic rule is that if there is an object that does not violate the universe's laws, then the probability that the object exists approaches 1 in a truly infinite universe.

As far as other planets exist, there's an infinite amount of energy in the universe.  It has to be located somewhere.  And taking the above rule into account, it is nearly impossible for there to exist a finite number of landmasses of finite size.  The only way for that to happen is for the entire rest of the infinite universe to be taken up by energy.
The bolded part is the important thing here. An infinite plane could have a 'law' that stated that no creature naturally occuring there can have a CR above x, for instance.
In addition, an infinite universe can exist with finite energy, which would necessarily either be spread equally, and thus nearly nonexistant, or clumped. If the energy is clumped, it would be nothing on the scale of the universe, but could contain quite a lot locally. Clumping could occur from a law defining a limit on rate of expansion, and a non-infinite time frame from the clump's formation (which would come from a significant CP violation). Additionally, laws would not necessarily have to be universal in scale.

Offline ariasderros

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@Bastian: that's where things like Whirlwind Attack come into play.  If you have truly infinite reach, you can attack an infinite number of creatures with a single action (you attack every creature within reach).

@Halinn: If you assume an infinite universe with infinite energy (otherwise it's not a true infinite universe), then the probability of anything occurring approaches 1.  You'd be right in that the probability is not 1, but it approaches 1.  So yes, there would be an infinite number of those planets, spaced infinitely far apart, and infinitely close together.  It gets weird.  The basic rule is that if there is an object that does not violate the universe's laws, then the probability that the object exists approaches 1 in a truly infinite universe.

As far as other planets exist, there's an infinite amount of energy in the universe.  It has to be located somewhere.  And taking the above rule into account, it is nearly impossible for there to exist a finite number of landmasses of finite size.  The only way for that to happen is for the entire rest of the infinite universe to be taken up by energy.
The bolded part is the important thing here. An infinite plane could have a 'law' that stated that no creature naturally occuring there can have a CR above x, for instance.
In addition, an infinite universe can exist with finite energy, which would necessarily either be spread equally, and thus nearly nonexistant, or clumped. If the energy is clumped, it would be nothing on the scale of the universe, but could contain quite a lot locally. Clumping could occur from a law defining a limit on rate of expansion, and a non-infinite time frame from the clump's formation (which would come from a significant CP violation). Additionally, laws would not necessarily have to be universal in scale.

... ya'know what?
Only Stephen Hawking should play Pun-Pun like that.
Let's keep this to the rules of D&D, and leave the Physics to the professionals.
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Offline dman11235

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@arias: yes, but that only works if you are actually at a higher level.  iirc, you only level up after an encounter ends.  But I suppose it might still not work.  Because...what is an encounter?  Would the encounter CR be the CR of the group of things you take out?  If so, that would be an infinite CR and.....no xp.  I already know about the NI xp thing, all I'm saying is that the way to get infinite xp is to have an action that grants xp and the capability of executing that an infinite amount of times in a finite amount of time.  That WILL yield infinite xp, as long as the action will always grant xp.  Basically, it's a defined amount of xp being granted an infinite amount of times.  Any discreet amount times infinity is infinity.

@Halinn: yes, yes, but there's no law that I know of against having an NI CR.  It's another assumption, on your part.  And besides, if there's a law in the universe against a creature with NI CR, then Pun-Pun cannot exist.  Because Pun-Pun has an NI CR.  Simply by existing, Pun-Pun says that there's not limit to your CR.  Also, if you take the base assumptions that the plane is infinite, then it does necessarily have an infinite amount of energy.  And with that, the probability that the plane has a finite amount of matter approaches 0.  It is not 0, yes, but it does approach 0.
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Offline Halinn

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Just for fun, a roundabout way of getting NI experience: craft your own traps and disarm them. Their CR is based on damage dealt, so craft them with an arbitrary amount of damage for CR whatever. Then use your infinite disable device check to get past the trap. Experience!

@Halinn: yes, yes, but there's no law that I know of against having an NI CR.  It's another assumption, on your part.  And besides, if there's a law in the universe against a creature with NI CR, then Pun-Pun cannot exist.  Because Pun-Pun has an NI CR.  Simply by existing, Pun-Pun says that there's not limit to your CR.  Also, if you take the base assumptions that the plane is infinite, then it does necessarily have an infinite amount of energy.  And with that, the probability that the plane has a finite amount of matter approaches 0.  It is not 0, yes, but it does approach 0.
Okay, whatever. Still won't be infinite experience. At any point in time, you will only be defeating a finite CR. An infinite CR would grant you no experience. If you are defeating an infinite amount of creatures with CR close enough to Pun-Pun's ECL at once, the encounter level would be infinite as per DMG page 48
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 09:33:47 AM by Halinn »

Offline dman11235

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@arias: yes, but that only works if you are actually at a higher level.  iirc, you only level up after an encounter ends.  But I suppose it might still not work.  Because...what is an encounter?  Would the encounter CR be the CR of the group of things you take out?  If so, that would be an infinite CR and.....no xp.

So I guess the only way to get infinite xp is to find an action that automatically grants xp (regardless of your level or its CR), and somehow be able to do that action an infinite amount of times in a finite amount of time.  Dang, and I was so excited too.
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Offline Halinn

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If you can find a way to make a skill check give experience directly, without it having to be specified how high a DC you're going for, you can get infinite xp. I do not believe it possible, but that is just about the only theoretical way I can see it being done.

Edit: can't believe I missed that. Pun-Pun has truly infinite gold, due to a week being spent on his profession check :D
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 12:02:39 PM by Halinn »

Offline Bastian

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can't believe I missed that. Pun-Pun has truly infinite gold, due to a week being spent on his profession check :D
Nice find. Added.

Offline Bastian

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Does anyone know of a way to do an infinite number of dice of damage? Note that d2 Crusader does not work since you are not actually doing an infinite number of dice, just rerolling one die continuously and getting extra damage each roll.

If so I think I have found a way to deal a higher order of infinity worth of damage. Specifically a Frostwing Virago's Frostbite Touch (Su) adds one's charisma bonus to each die of damage.

On a random side note, Divination Immunity (Ex) allows one's future moves in a game called xorvintaal to be completely unlearnable by divination or similar effects. Thus if Pun-pun started as a young adult true dragon with the xorvintaal template (it is free), It could ascend undetected assuming ascending isn't against the rules of the game/counts as a move in the game. The fluff sort of indicates that gaining power is part of the game but it also says there are an extremely complicated set of rules which it isn't telling us so for all we know ascending is against the rules and thus I don't think I'm likely going to add this to the list so I'm noting it here for posterity.

On a further side note, I have just changed Omniscience to be Infinite Knowledge and thus move it to the infinite section not the ability section since the fact that infinity minus infinity is undefined means that infinity does not necessarily equal everything.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 06:51:28 PM by Bastian »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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The omni trick is an infinite damage loop
... used for all those other goodies.
It'll do.
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Offline Bastian

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The omni trick is an infinite damage loop
... used for all those other goodies.
It'll do.
Nice catch, I never even thought of considered it with infinite damage to get it to do infinite damage an infinite number of times, that renders Frostbite Touch (Su) rather useless. Now we've just got to check with someone good enough at math to know if that actually is a higher order infinity.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 10:17:30 PM by Bastian »

Offline AyeGill

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If I'm reading your explanation correctly, no, that's not a higher-order infinity.
What you're doing would be infinity2
The smallest higher-order infinity would be 2infinity

Offline Bastian

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If I'm reading your explanation correctly, no, that's not a higher-order infinity.
What you're doing would be infinity2
The smallest higher-order infinity would be 2infinity
Thank you for the help.

Offline Mister Lamp

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If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold.  :o

I think. I'm not 100% certain.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 01:41:19 PM by Mister Lamp »
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Offline ariasderros

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If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold.  :o

He can already assume any shape of any size. In part because there are so many other shape-changers in the game, and in part because of his divine abilities.

So he is everyone and everything, and has merely chosen to "forget" this while allowing all of his selves to be independent (ignoring amalgam), Etc.

You thought WAY to small for Pun-Pun.

Heck, you thought to small for the Nut-Puns :)
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Offline Mister Lamp

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If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold.  :o

He can already assume any shape of any size. In part because there are so many other shape-changers in the game, and in part because of his divine abilities.

So he is everyone and everything, and has merely chosen to "forget" this while allowing all of his selves to be independent (ignoring amalgam), Etc.

You thought WAY to small for Pun-Pun.

Heck, you thought to small for the Nut-Puns :)

I'm sorry, I'll do better.

Is there a thread to suggest strangest abilities Pun-Pun can get? because I found an interesting one.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 02:15:15 PM by Mister Lamp »
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Offline Halinn

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First post has a section for "Ridiculous abilities"

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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If you use the Dragon Magazine Compendium, then Pun-Pun could grab the Tibbit's ability to turn into a cat, meaning for all we know every one of the cats in our universe is actually an NI large kobold.  :o

I think. I'm not 100% certain.
GAAHHH !!!!

(conspiracy voice) pun-pun is everywhere, and cute.
 :p
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Offline Halinn

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Simplifying a nigh-infinite caster level: Suffer The Flesh uncapped with Reserves of Strength. Then Pun-Pun won't be dependent on having the greater consumptive fields killing stuff.

Edit: I read up on Pain Mastery, the Omniscifier trick and Bellflower Tattoo. How is Pun-Pun using the strength bonus from Pain Mastery with the charisma-based Bellflower Tattoo?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 09:56:40 PM by Halinn »

Offline Garryl

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Void Disciple's Void Release (or something like that; it's in the "Any" category of the X stat to Y bonus thread) lets you use your highest ability modifier in place of any other ability modifier. Str is highest, so use that instead of Cha.