Author Topic: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?  (Read 6479 times)

Offline Agrippa

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What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« on: June 09, 2013, 05:55:33 PM »
Can anyone here tell me what the big deal is behind G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire or the HBO show based on it called The Game of Thrones? What I heard about it so far either didn't interest me or disturbed me a bit. The only exception was a scene with Tyrion Lannister, the only sane family member/parentally chosen butt monkey/only non-annoying or even half way moral Lannister talking about Westeros' competing gods and their commands during a three day free HBO preview. Such as the Drowned God calling for the drowning of all of his worshippers prisoners of war, with The Lord of Light demanding that prisoners of war be burned alive.

Tyrion, Catelyn Stark (no relation to Tony), Brienne and Daenerys are seeming to be the only interesting and sympathetic main characters I've in that episode. Even then Daenerys managed to be both simultaneously sympathetic and at least mildly irritating. What's so grand about it? There's been dark and morally conflicted military fantasy novels before. Like The Black Company or to somw exten the Witchers. What makes ASoIaF/The Game of Thrones stand out? Is it the Jamie/Cersei Lannister incest, because if that's it I'm officially dissapointed in the general public.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 05:58:24 PM by Agrippa »

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2013, 05:57:50 PM »
Plot twists. The author has so many spare protagonists that he can afford to kill pretty much anyone, so you never know what to expect.

Offline Agrippa

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2013, 06:00:38 PM »
Plot twists. The author has so many spare protagonists that he can afford to kill pretty much anyone, so you never know what to expect.

That's it, nothing else?

Offline Braininthejar

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2013, 06:02:34 PM »
Well, you can have a plot twist without killing anyone - and with the sheer number of (more or less) competent schemers, some of those turn out awesome.

What else do you expect from a good fantasy book?

Offline Libertad

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2013, 06:06:47 PM »
That's it, nothing else?

Just a guess, but I'm pretty sure the gratuitous female nudity and widespread prostitution in Westeros draws quite a bit of attention.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2013, 08:26:58 PM »
There's as many reasons to like the book/show as there is fans of it. I like the show because it's gritty, realistic fantasy and it's made very well.
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Offline Nicklance

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2013, 06:56:43 AM »
Boobs. :whistle
Will add later

Offline brujon

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 12:53:31 PM »
Ignore the series, read the books. Seriously, they're the next best thing since oxygen.

There is violence, but there's only so much violence because things were rough in the middle ages, which is the approximate time period the series is on. No violence is completely gratuitous, there is always context, and the author convincingly portrays the viewpoints of the different characters and how they justify and see their actions and the actions of those around them. In fact, the viewpoint thing is the main selling point of the series for me.

Instead of relying on a single all-seeing narrator, the author writes each chapter from the viewpoint of a different character. Since every narrator is a character in the series themselves, they are unreliable narrators. They are not aware of things that are going on outside of what they saw, heard or read, and they have no more way of being sure of what is going on than the reader is, and because of that, you are constantly being surprised by turns of event, which is something George is a genius at. The recent hype comes from the episode in the series that deals with the Red Wedding, which i'll not go into detail here, but suffices to say, that it is *THE* most unexpected plot twist in the entire series, or if not, at least one of THE most unexpected. So many people you didn't expect to die, die, that your jaw drops with the force of a thousand tons.

The amount of detail that goes into the series is just amazing. He does his best to try and get everything right about the period, including the little but ever important things like food, the way armor is donned, the way battles are fought, the way wars are fought, the fact that people had EXTREME difficulty of getting messages across quickly, etc. The world is also very fleshed out, the religions are believable, as are the traditions, and by the gods, he did his research on medieval traditions. Seriously, it's amazing.

The TV series doesn't do justice to the magnitude of the work.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline littha

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 02:41:22 PM »
The TV series doesn't do justice to the magnitude of the work.

That is not to say the series is bad, it is awesome (at least to me it is) but it really is second to the books.

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 02:56:33 AM »
Personally, I've always thought the whole thing to be overrated.  It just seems to come across as too in-your-face about being overly-cynical (and even a bit condescending at times) ..... of course, I guess overly-cynical and being all angsty and shit is the "thing" these days.  :eh

There's as many reasons to like the book/show as there is fans of it.
By this logic, you've also just validated the existence shit like Jersey Shore. :tongue

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2013, 05:30:54 PM »
The first three Game of Thrones books are quite good.  Although GRRM does tend towards the gratuitous from time to time, a tendency that gets worse as the series goes on.

Short list

Pros:  interesting engaging world that is not a Tolkien clone; characters that feel in some sense "real," such that they have hopes, fears, failings, and so on; a lavish affection upon knighthood and its trappings, along with fealty and feudalism that you rarely see in fantasy; a world that is a playground for various tropes; political intrigue done reasonably well.

Cons:  the latter books have been very disappointing; plot seems to have ground to a halt; not finished yet; gratuitous torture to the point of becoming numbing; as more has been added to the world it arguably hangs together less well.

My suggestion would be to pick up the Dunk and Egg short stories.  They are set in the same world, but 150ish years before, are (imho) quick and engaging and short.  If you find them entertaining, pick up Game of Thrones.  If not, don't.  Alternatively, you could probably watch the first 3 episodes or so of the show.  If it leaves you utterly cold, then take a pass. 


P.S.:  I happen to like the books (well, really the first 3) quite a bit.  The show has started to stall a bit, though, and is starting to suffer from some poor directing.  I'm watching the show with my wife, who hasn't read the books, and there are things that are more telegraphed in the show that were more surprising to read, and some characters' character development has been advanced quickly, which is probably a good thing. 

Offline Agrippa

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 12:23:34 PM »
Personally, I've always thought the whole thing to be overrated.  It just seems to come across as too in-your-face about being overly-cynical (and even a bit condescending at times) ..... of course, I guess overly-cynical and being all angsty and shit is the "thing" these days.  :eh

I don't get why that level of cynicism is considered more "adult" or "mature" than less cynical works. Hell there are some people bashing Game of Thrones for not being as cynical as A Song of Ice and Fire. So far there are only four main characters I really like. Tyrion Lannister, the only sane and decent member of his family, Daenerys Targaryen, for giving a damn about the people whose lands she conquers, Davos Seaworth, an honest and moral man who realizes how far his liege has fallen and attempts to pull him back and Brienne of Tarth. The book is probably worse in this regard.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 12:48:44 PM »
@characters
Just saying that's not true at all.  That doesn't mean you should go read them or anything, but the show ends up being a very different animal in this regard.  To a large extent, it has to do with the plotline constructions, the actors, and the constraints of the show. 

For instance, Tyrion is always a fan favorite -- and very similar in both show and book -- as is Davos, though he has a lot more "screentime" in the books if memory serves.  Daenerys, however, is widely regarded as being insufferable in the books.  Her character development is much faster and much less uneven in the show -- making her a lot different.  Other characters benefit and suffer from their plotlines being pruned or from good/poor acting and directing. 

The books have a lot of memorable and interesting characters.  That is, I think, one of their strengths.  If, however, you only like characters that are likable or decent, then they may leave you cold.  I'd also suggest avoiding "Breaking Bad" and anything written by Gogol as well. 


@adult and cynicism
I share a bit of that confusion.  There's probably a lot of room between a polyanna world where all is good and one where is all is bleak and misery.  As I noted earlier, the show seems to play up these aspects, and the most lurid versions of them, for reasons I find utterly mysterious.  I hadn't heard of anyone accusing the show of being less cynical, though maybe I don't know what that term means in this context. 


But, the OP asked what people like about the series.  That seems to have been adequately described.  It's got a lot to recommend it, especially if the comparison points are things like Malazan and Black Company.  Although it's a bit of a misnomer to characterize GoT as "military fantasy."  It's more courtly and court intrigue. 

I am getting the unmistakable sense that you don't want to like it.  And, that's all well and good, you are more than welcome to avoid the series and the books, and so on.  But it's awkward to have a cogent literary criticism conversation in the light of that seeming prejudgment and also without any sense of framing and context.  I could, for instance, explain why I like Jorah and dislike Selmy, but just giving you enough context to do so would probably take a dozen spoiler-filled pages. 

Offline brujon

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2013, 01:18:38 PM »
I share your opinion on Jorah vs Selmy. They're both Knights, but they're very different ones at that. I see Selmy as much more one-dimensional than Jorah, who i see as having more depth as a character. That is, of course, without giving spoilers, like you said. Jorah is simply awesome, but also a bit tragic what with his luck with woman and all.


On the whole, i think you're spot on your description of ASoIaF as a court drama/suspense thing. Much of the appeal of the books comes with how believable he makes all the intrigue and plotting be. When i read it, i feel really immersed in the whole court ecosystem, where predators pose as prey and prey try to become predators themselves, and that, i believe, is one of the things that appeal to me the most. I get surprised at every plot turn and twist, and there aren't many authors that are as good at doing that as G.R.R Martin.

It's also a very good mix. There are many good medieval period epics, and there are many good fantasy epics, but they are seldom great when mixed together. There is often too much magic for it to be believable as gritty medieval fantasy (The Forgotten Realms problem), or it's  too grimdark or it doesn't have enough magic to really set it apart from traditional stories, like King Arthur. I like the balance in ASoIaF. There's enough magic to make it interesting, but it isn't commonplace enough to be trivial, and at the same time, not powerful enough to be a nuke. It's also mysterious enough, with just the right amount to avoid becoming so rare it becomes a thing reserved only for major plot characters. The gods as well, they're there, but they're not so present enough for you to question yourself why they just don't solve it all themselves, and not so pushed away to the background for you to question why they even exist.

Everything just kind of finds a balance in ASoIaF and i like it.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2013, 09:11:08 PM »
I went in to reading the series really wanting to like it. 
However, by the time that I finished aFfC, and the level of grimdark had really settled in on me, it occurred to me that I was not going to be feeling good at the end of this thing -- sorry, soul-crushers just aren't my thing (I've gotten enough of that IRL). 
For example: I really want Stannis to finally take off his blinders and ascend to his "Crowning Moment of Awesome" ... but the more I think about it, the more I realize that he's just going to be unceremoniously killed and be remembered as being a shameful husk of the man he used to/could have been. 
Daenerys has/had the worse case of Stockholm Syndrome that I've ever even heard of, and it is just a matter of time before she shows herself to be just as bat-shit crazy as the rest of her family.
I understand and appreciate the idea of "flawed" characters .... but there's a difference between "realistically flawed" and "barely-redeemable piece of trash.
The bare handful of characters that I feel like I can actually get behind, we're just getting strung along until they get brutally murdered.

I get it already -- the world is shit (i.e., his overall theme).  At this point, I feel like my nose is being rubbed in it.

(gratuitous rant against Martin:)
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« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 09:14:08 PM by wotmaniac »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What's the big deal with ASoIaF and The Game of Thrones?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2013, 03:24:10 PM »
Full disclosure:  the last 2 books of ASOIF have ... well, disappointment is way too mild a word for it.  This, along with the glacial pace at which they are progressing, are reasons that I do not proselytize the series at all. 

I also think the grimdark is just too much, hence my earlier comment about gratuitousness.  And, I think it's steadily increased from the 1st book to the 3rd and beyond.  And, if I can paraphrase(?) Wotmaniac, it makes a lot of the books just feel kind of pointless. 

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