Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 211685 times)

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #460 on: October 29, 2016, 02:35:02 AM »
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A lot of the so-called CO community preaches the exact opposite, that in-combat healing is a waste of time because you could be killing stuff instead.
That's not as relevant in a system that doesn't consume actions to heal.

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And very few people like playing the healbot.
Ah? Being the healer is fun. Mechas don't need a dedicated healer much, though, at least until the heal options are revamped as well. Pilots are another matter though.

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Although it's fine to don't use all your multiple racial abilities if you don't want to.
Sure, or get a group of mook healers to make it viable. Anyway, all that to say that looking at OwtM I see it as rather awful. If you think it isn't actually a sub-par alternative to normal piloting, then that's fine.
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"I could've made a more OP character" isn't much of a valid argument in D&D.
Wasn't an argument. Just saying that for the concept it seemed cool. Now it seems less like becoming one with the mecha and more like the mecha is using the pilot like some kind of shield. The argument was that if you you're stating that Machine Warrior is there to make One with the Machine work for an android to make the healing options sort of viable again with OwtM, the prestige class is available too late to be an option at the earlier levels.

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-If you're already piloting a mecha, then you can't pilot another even if it's unattended just as if you were inside the mecha you're already piloting. If the mecha is being controlled by another Innovade, then it doesn't count as unattended. Also Innovades were originally meat bags machine slaves organic terminals for a super computer, so lack of android synergy is intended.
I'm asking what happens to a mecha/machine that suddenly becomes unattended within the range of two/more of those guys. Who gets to control it?  If it is treated as being in their possession, it is no longer unattended... but who gets to have it "in his possession" first?
Lack of android synergy is intended though I'm just pointing out that the idea of proxy machine control fits androids well (although the setting that it takes it from is for organics... in practice it seems machines would normally have an even easier time controlling other machines). Anyway.

Arsenal
Targeting  Simulator (IV) should probably have a -3 penalty to Will saves.
Booster (I) similarly doesn't have a penalty like the other movement increase accessories.
With accessories making maneuvers and spirit usage more efficient, maybe there should also be an accessory to make the energy consumption of movement more efficient as well. Like a better engine.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 03:24:52 PM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #461 on: October 29, 2016, 07:00:35 PM »
For Born to Fight (specifically, Over the Top), does the base AC of some pure metal armour get added to the mecha's AC? And does armour proficiency factor into it in any degree?

Offline Rekmond

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #462 on: October 31, 2016, 02:21:55 AM »
Question, and something that only occurred to me to check a few minutes ago.

Mechs and space are quite commonly paired, but I am finding nothing in this material involving low light vision, dark vision, blind sight sensors, or anything really. Not even headlamps

No accessories or upgrades, and the only feat that makes any mention of them is the Funnel Control System in that "Your funnels benefits from any special visions and senses you have, and you can "see/sense" from their position as well."

Is this intentional or just something overlooked? Because it seems to me if your race doesn't have an ability for it, you are going to have a really bad time trying to fight in the darkness of space or even at night.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #463 on: October 31, 2016, 07:08:31 AM »
I thought the problem with space wasn't lighting, but distance? If it's dark, you're basically in a planet's shadow and fighting at night anyway.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #464 on: October 31, 2016, 10:48:59 AM »
Is it intentional that Gate to Nowhere, Showtime Star, Cyber Newtype, Innovade, and Coordinator aren't [Pilot] Feats? The former two especially, as they require Pilot Levels

Also, it feels weird to me that Cyber Newtype doesn't let you use funnels, what with that being pretty much the whole point of cyber newtypes (not entirely, but you get what I mean)
Ups, fixed. I specifically thought about the Funnels unblocking part but then I forgot to actually write it down.

For Born to Fight (specifically, Over the Top), does the base AC of some pure metal armour get added to the mecha's AC? And does armour proficiency factor into it in any degree?
Yes you get the AC, and yes, you need the respective armor proficiency to benefit from specific pure metal properties.

Question, and something that only occurred to me to check a few minutes ago.

Mechs and space are quite commonly paired, but I am finding nothing in this material involving low light vision, dark vision, blind sight sensors, or anything really. Not even headlamps

No accessories or upgrades, and the only feat that makes any mention of them is the Funnel Control System in that "Your funnels benefits from any special visions and senses you have, and you can "see/sense" from their position as well."

Is this intentional or just something overlooked? Because it seems to me if your race doesn't have an ability for it, you are going to have a really bad time trying to fight in the darkness of space or even at night.

Hmmm, I guess overlooked is the right word, since the games just reveal everything right away. I guess I'll write something for mechas having default lamps and then some special senses acessories/upgrades when I'm not so sleepy (at the top of my head acessories more based on vision/sound, super would get exotic stuff like Scent and permanent Detect X effects).


Quote
A lot of the so-called CO community preaches the exact opposite, that in-combat healing is a waste of time because you could be killing stuff instead.
That's not as relevant in a system that doesn't consume actions to heal.
But it does consume resources that could be used to kill your enemy faster. Spirits being spent on healing are spirits not spent on Strike/Valor/Zeal/etc.

Quote
"I could've made a more OP character" isn't much of a valid argument in D&D.
Wasn't an argument. Just saying that for the concept it seemed cool. Now it seems less like becoming one with the mecha and more like the mecha is using the pilot like some kind of shield. The argument was that if you you're stating that Machine Warrior is there to make One with the Machine work for an android to make the healing options sort of viable again with OwtM, the prestige class is available too late to be an option at the earlier levels.

The way you thought One with the Machine works is borked at low-mid levels. Because you can get full-heals and percentage-based regeneration in this system, the benefits of having a higher max HP are drastically increased. Now as you may've noticed, the ways to actually increase your max mecha HP are rather limited. But then the android that gets to throw those limits out the window. And if then the android also gets to benefit from full/percentage heals, their value scales pretty much out of control. It just can't be compared. The damage needed to do any significant damage to your vision of One with the Machine will have killed the rest of the party multiple times over. That's, if anything, a high level concept.

tl:dr-Making the rules work like you suggest will mean android is the only true way of making a tanky mecha because any other race will suck balls in durability terms when compared to the android mecha at low-mid levels.

Quote
-If you're already piloting a mecha, then you can't pilot another even if it's unattended just as if you were inside the mecha you're already piloting. If the mecha is being controlled by another Innovade, then it doesn't count as unattended. Also Innovades were originally meat bags machine slaves organic terminals for a super computer, so lack of android synergy is intended.
I'm asking what happens to a mecha/machine that suddenly becomes unattended within the range of two/more of those guys. Who gets to control it?  If it is treated as being in their possession, it is no longer unattended... but who gets to have it "in his possession" first?
Lack of android synergy is intended though I'm just pointing out that the idea of proxy machine control fits androids well (although the setting that it takes it from is for organics... in practice it seems machines would normally have an even easier time controlling other machines). Anyway.
There's a reason why most mecha are piloted by meat bags. Something brain waves.

Arsenal
Targeting  Simulator (IV) should probably have a -3 penalty to Will saves.
Good catch.

Booster (I) similarly doesn't have a penalty like the other movement increase accessories.
None of the level I acessories have.

With accessories making maneuvers and spirit usage more efficient, maybe there should also be an accessory to make the energy consumption of movement more efficient as well. Like a better engine.
It's called a ship.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #465 on: November 01, 2016, 12:23:31 AM »
The way you thought One with the Machine works is borked at low-mid levels.
No, he's saying it's borked at all levels.

So aside from the fact a Mech will typically have more HP anyway and your text entry directly disagrees with your recent ruling; When a Critical Hit happens the Pilot takes roughly 300% damage, the x2 damage to the Mech as the damage is shared, and the none-critical amount that hits the pilot for all Critical Hits. This is devastating no matter the character or optimization level. Likewise, bashing healing in battle aside because you are trying to offer free-action healing in combat, damage is shared but not healing so you need twice as much as before. You will have cases of the mech/droid combo taking 55% damage in a round, an ally trying to heal the mech, and the pilot being dead in the seat next round anyway. One with the Machine is an optional penalty that offers no real bonuses.

I think I also figured it out. You remind me of those programming noobs, you fix one tiny little error and then the console spams forty seven errors back at you and all you can do is hoot, rant, complain, self-contradict, and otherwise try to bully the compiler into submission. It's frustrating but relax. You're receiving comments not inherently because it's broken to hell and back, but because people are interested enough to help you try and make it even better. Just accept there will be no end to things that need fixed, specially when patch jobs result in none-working concepts, and put them on a time table like everything else and you'll probably feel better.
Incidentally, imgur had some deva comics up this morning. Have something you can probably relate to :p
(click to show/hide)

Also on the sensors, have some ideas such as electromagnet, infrared, x-ray, radar, laser emitters, etc. You could spoof it up for all seven Arsenal levels and maybe offer some alternative methods of sensing (like emotion detectors? feel my burning heart justice!)
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 09:02:42 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #466 on: November 01, 2016, 12:37:38 AM »

Hey, one of my players is griping about Mecha Engineer not being updated to the new EN system. Would it be too much trouble to ask for an update there?

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #467 on: November 02, 2016, 12:57:16 AM »
Ah, yes. I'll get it done within the next few days. I can pop up a quick formula for the new energy progressions per frame type though I'll recheck all the stuff that works off energy to make sure it fits the fact that there's a lot more energy to use in the early levels and less in the later levels. Probably following suit by similarly increasing/decreasing the energy costs based on what they do.
Maybe reassess other stuff again since there's been plenty of changes all around. Maybe also add some more Custom Soul options, especially the later levels that are empty. Probably using Soro's suggestions. I'll confirm when I'm done and the big lines of what changed to make it easier to update the sheets.

edit: Minor changes to some mecha hp caps. Different mecha energy progressions. Changes to the in-built real robot weapon costs and limits. Updated the multiclassing option with Real Robot to less arsenal space and to limit it off the generic robots along with minimum size reduction for taking the dynamic frame. More to come when I'll be back from work tomorrow, maybe.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 01:30:40 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #468 on: November 02, 2016, 05:30:36 AM »
Added a bunch of new arsenal options, plus three new Super Robot upgrades, Undetectable, Ancient Sensor and Electronic Nose.

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #469 on: November 02, 2016, 11:35:04 AM »
Added a bunch of new arsenal options, plus three new Super Robot upgrades, Undetectable, Ancient Sensor and Electronic Nose.

The new arsenal options are kind of cool, but they also make Darkness being on the Arcane Pilot spell list kinda pointless. It doesn't do anything with how trivially easy it is to get darkvision now. I'm not suggesting remove darkvision, but maybe add some kind of upgrade Arcane Pilots can take as a super upgrade, perhaps, to let them bypass that?

And Anomander, you seem to have a typo in the formulas for mecha engineer EN
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 11:41:12 AM by CKirk »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #470 on: November 02, 2016, 11:51:16 AM »
Added a bunch of new arsenal options, plus three new Super Robot upgrades, Undetectable, Ancient Sensor and Electronic Nose.

The new arsenal options are kind of cool, but they also make Darkness being on the Arcane Pilot spell list kinda pointless. It doesn't do anything with how trivially easy it is to get darkvision now. I'm not suggesting remove darkvision, but maybe add some kind of upgrade Arcane Pilots can take as a super upgrade, perhaps, to let them bypass that?

And Anomander, you seem to have a typo in the formulas for mecha engineer EN

Darkvision doesn't allow you to see through magical darkness.  From the darkness spell "Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness."

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #471 on: November 02, 2016, 11:55:08 AM »

Darkvision doesn't allow you to see through magical darkness.  From the darkness spell "Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness."

Right, whoops. I'm thinking of PF Darkness, which specifies that darkvision ignores it (unless it's Mythic).


Also, Anomander, the Engineer's Maintenance breakthrough. Is it intended that there is no limit to the amount of HP you can repair in one action aside from EN available?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #472 on: November 02, 2016, 01:16:08 PM »
The new arsenal options are kind of cool, but they also make Darkness being on the Arcane Pilot spell list kinda pointless.
Most of the Arcane Pilot's Spells are pretty pointless. It's Evocation is out scaled by Arsenal, in general it's out performed by Splat of lower levels and almighty-tera-giga-mega-extraspecially when it comes to buffs, it goes almost no CC effects, no Divinations, no mooks, no movement, no town building/support, etc. Heck Ols complained last month over lack of Counters being used, Real/Super get five Counters, excluding applicable Boosts/Stances, and "That won't work twice!" & "Unbreakable Will" are extremely potent defensive abilities but the Arcane Pilot doesn't even get Wings of Cover which is still limited to 1/rnd vs Danger Zone's 1st level Parry's ability to block every attack if you have a high enough Attack Bonus, so it has literally nothing to counter outside of Spirits which apparently require prepared usage on the turn before actually knowing you needed them.  :-\

It puts an overwhelming amount of pressure on it's Extra Known slots but it only gets one of each level (two of the 1st) forcing you to take the most broken Spells you can find in order to compensate for your lack of choice and poor list. Like if you want to actually use CharOp's recognized blasting Spells like Combust, Dalamar's Lightning Lance, Wings of Flurry, Lord of the Sky, or w/e else then you gave up the chance to grab stuff like Haste, Spider Skin, Heart of Water, Scry, Superior Resistance, Teleport, etc. So maybe you just figure Planar Binding and picking creatures capable of providing both is the only way to go.

Offline Rekmond

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #473 on: November 02, 2016, 05:54:42 PM »
Ancient Sensor is great, love the multiple options to mix it up and not make it an always pick (except maybe for Moon Vanguard, that sense organic creatures mech size or bigger is some great synergy)

Electronic Nose and Undetectable are also options that have me in giggles. Scent in space and sensor baffling for sneaking up on people with blindsense.

but with Undectable, what happens if the detect range is effectively 0 mu? Are you invisible to their sensors outside of actual line of sight vision?
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #474 on: November 02, 2016, 06:33:33 PM »
but with Undectable, what happens if the detect range is effectively 0 mu? Are you invisible to their sensors outside of actual line of sight vision?
Pretty much sounds like it but you need more than upgrades.

For example, at level 4 the would be seeing only needs to invest in 9 Arsenal points for 120mu special vision. You need to invest 19 Arsenal points in the Yksvoknym Particles Generator and 2 Upgrade points into Undetectable to counter it. Electronic Disruptor's 1/12th should keep you from having to invest more Upgrade points into Undetectable but stealth just got a lot harder without just picking up Darkstalker.

Quote
Longo Alcance Radar (II): You gain Spacesense 120 mu plus you can see through fogs as well as obstacles not made of metal as long as they're less than 5 feet thick and within 120 mu, but you take a -1 penalty on Will saves. This takes only 9 arsenal space.

Raios X Radar Avançado(III): You can see through fogs, as well as obstacles not made of metal as long as they're less than 5 feet thick and within 120 mu but take a -1 penalty to all saves. This takes only 9 arsenal space.
Maybe flip flop them?

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #475 on: November 02, 2016, 08:17:47 PM »
Oslecamo, I'm running a game with this system, and one of my players (who doesn't have an account) wanted to make some requests about the system. Here is his point:
Quote from: Siflux
I'm pretty happy with most the system, but I have a serious problem with the Accessory nerfs. As they now stand, accessories cost 25 arsenal, but grant both a buff and a nerf. Arsenal is a pool of what is supposed to be points making you stronger, but post nerf, you spend your upgrade pool on specializing and altering your mech in a way that could just as easily be handled in the manner of giving Real Pilots their Arsenal tier worth of slots to mess around with their mech.


Speaking of slots, I'd like to propose an alternate way to handle accessories that would hopefully allow you to return them to their proper power level without any issues with them being unbalanced. What I propose is to switch accessories to a hardpoint/slot system (much like in the games), and to remove the nerfs on them. Additional Parts slots would be purchased with Arsenal, or with Upgrade on Supers, with additional slots costing more to naturally limit the max number of parts slots -- for example, 25 Arsenal for the first slot, as per the existing system, but then 50 for the next slot, 75 for the next slot, and so on, with each additional part slot costing 25 more than the last in this example. This is already well modeled with Hyperdimensional Storage for Supers, which could just be directly converted over to buying parts slots, since that's both the best thing to do with that upgrade and the reason why it was a mandatory pre-nerf set of upgrades on most super robot builds.


The existing accessory nerf hits Supers hard, as it greatly decreases the value of Extradimensional Storage. For Supers wanting special weapons like armor breakers, there should still be a way to get Arsenal. Maybe provide 10 Arsenal for free and force multi-classing for more. Maybe still let it be bought with Upgrade. The above numbers are suggested due to their match with current values from Upgrade, but could well be different. They're primarily provided as examples to illustrate the point. This would also provide an extra advantage towards taking Reals with built-in free accessories.


I believe that the biggest balance problem here is that it's trivial and used to be highly rewarding to grab tons of accessories as a Real, as your inbuilt weapons generally provided most or all of the combat options you needed, and Arsenal weapons cost very little Arsenal -- a heavy weapon like the Burst Railgun is only 10 Arsenal. Contrast with the games, where it's 40 W-Gauge in OG1, and 30 in OG2. By the current system, this is necessary to make Arsenal normal weapons at all desirable, as they must directly compete with accessories; unless you had less than 25 Arsenal left, by the pre-nerf system your best move was always taking another Accessory.


If you want to use Arsenal for accessories, there's a few good solutions that immediately occur to me. You can nerf them, which you did and I dislikebecause it makes them stop being special. You can increase the cost of normal Arsenal weapons, so characters have things other than Accessories to spend their Arsenal on, except likely that just means players will ignore arsenal weapons almost entirely, which I assume goes against your design intent here. Of course, not using Arsenal for accessories at all and giving each Real on the list a Part slot count would also work, much like in the games, but by the way this hasn’t been done, I am guessing that for some reason you consider this undesirable to the design.


The change of accessory from individually purchased to buying slots works poorly with the accessories with nonstandard costs, of which I think there are four categories: Refined Armament, Cartridge, sense-granting parts of cost 9, and such parts of cost 19. Solutions are varied for each. For Refined Armament, either move it to a different category to still be bought at 5 Arsenal, or make a single part slot filled with it apply its bonus to up to five weapons (or, since most units don't have more than five weapons anyway, just simplify things by making the one accessory apply to all weapons). Cartridge would be handled similarly: keep it Arsenal cost 2 instead of being an accessory, give pilots twelve of them to a slot, or buff them to the power seen in the games. For sensors, again possibly make them not take accessory slots, or allow three cost-9 sensors to a slot, or a cost-19 and a cost-9. By the current Arsenal numbers, those all should be of equivalent value.


Another possible solution to the nonstandard cost issue is to do percentage-based or static increases in Arsenal cost for each additional accessory: the first is the listed cost, the second costs 5% more than the normal cost for the accessory or 2 arsenal more, the third costs 10% more than base cost for the accessory or 5 arsenal more, and so on.


As a side effect of this change, normal Arsenal weapon costs could be increased to price most of them out of range of Supers, which is good -- Supers aren't supposed to be using mook weapons, especially not awesome ones like the Shishioh Blade or the Graviton Cannon. If you disagree with this and consider that a desirable outcome the system, it can still be allowed under this system by allowing Parts Slots to be traded in for 25 Arsenal each, thus making powerful normal Arsenal weapons still obtainable for Supers, but requiring the trade-in of multiple Parts slots, thus only being worth doing on highly specific builds (like ranged super).


Thank you for considering all this. Good game design is important to me, and I think this mod is a great base overall. I'm happy to be a player in this setting, there just still a few things to work on in my opinion. For things where you disagree with me, I'd really appreciate hearing your design intent, and your reason for doing things differently. I'm currently working off the assumption that your goal is basically 'like Super Robot Wars, but d20 and with all the benefits of the SRD behind it'.

Also, the combining robot system in Mecha Mook doesn't seem to have been updated for the EN overhaul

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #476 on: November 02, 2016, 08:33:39 PM »
Oslecamo, I'm running a game with this system, and one of my players (who doesn't have an account) wanted to make some requests about the system. Here is his point:
Quote from: Siflux
Lots of things to think about.
I was about to post a reply to previous comments when I saw this. Your player raises several good points but right now I don't have the time to properly write a reply, in particular because several of his suggestions sound like they're worth working on and I want to properly consider them. Hopefully I'll be able to give a more detailed answer later today or tommorrow.

Also, the combining robot system in Mecha Mook doesn't seem to have been updated for the EN overhaul
I'll see to updating it soon too, thanks for the catch!

Ancient Sensor is great, love the multiple options to mix it up and not make it an always pick (except maybe for Moon Vanguard, that sense organic creatures mech size or bigger is some great synergy)

Electronic Nose and Undetectable are also options that have me in giggles. Scent in space and sensor baffling for sneaking up on people with blindsense.

but with Undectable, what happens if the detect range is effectively 0 mu? Are you invisible to their sensors outside of actual line of sight vision?
Correct.

The new arsenal options are kind of cool, but they also make Darkness being on the Arcane Pilot spell list kinda pointless.
Most of the Arcane Pilot's Spells are pretty pointless. It's Evocation is out scaled by Arsenal, in general it's out performed by Splat of lower levels and almighty-tera-giga-mega-extraspecially when it comes to buffs, it goes almost no CC effects, no Divinations, no mooks, no movement, no town building/support, etc.
Eeerr, Arcane Pilot has plenty of Divinations, from the humble Detect Magic to Locate Object to  Clairaudience/Clairvoyance to Locate Creature to True Seeing, several more all the way to Foresight.

Also a fair amount of support, from Alarm to Darkness to Heroism to Cat’s Grace.

As for town building, he has mecha-scale Unseen Servant.

Mooks come from the familiars. You even pointed out how you can make a build about turning them into gun turrets to lay out the dakka good.

And yes, the real/super pilot outdamage the arcane pilot because real/super don't really have anything at all utility wise on their side of the gestalt.

Heck Ols complained last month over lack of Counters being used, Real/Super get five Counters, excluding applicable Boosts/Stances, and "That won't work twice!" & "Unbreakable Will" are extremely potent defensive abilities but the Arcane Pilot doesn't even get Wings of Cover which is still limited to 1/rnd vs Danger Zone's 1st level Parry's ability to block every attack if you have a high enough Attack Bonus, so it has literally nothing to counter outside of Spirits which apparently require prepared usage on the turn before actually knowing you needed them.  :-\
Defend/Evade pilot feats. Even the Arcane Pilot gets some of those bonus.

It puts an overwhelming amount of pressure on it's Extra Known slots but it only gets one of each level (two of the 1st) forcing you to take the most broken Spells you can find in order to compensate for your lack of choice and poor list. Like if you want to actually use CharOp's recognized blasting Spells like Combust, Dalamar's Lightning Lance, Wings of Flurry, Lord of the Sky, or w/e else then you gave up the chance to grab stuff like Haste, Spider Skin, Heart of Water, Scry, Superior Resistance, Teleport, etc. So maybe you just figure Planar Binding and picking creatures capable of providing both is the only way to go.
Why yes, the intention is for Arcane Pilots to specialize in a certain type of magic instead of every mage character knowing all of the uber spell ever without real effort. And any of the spells you mentioned are enough on their own to make the Arcane Pilot a MVP for the party.

Then as you're doing in the game you can get extra spells through a variety of items.

Of course if your next step is to abuse Planar Binding, well, you're abusing planar binding, point.

but with Undectable, what happens if the detect range is effectively 0 mu? Are you invisible to their sensors outside of actual line of sight vision?
Pretty much sounds like it but you need more than upgrades.

2For example, at level 4 the would be seeing only needs to invest in 9 Arsenal points for 120mu special vision. You need to invest 19 Arsenal points in the Yksvoknym Particles Generator and 2 Upgrade points into Undetectable to counter it. Electronic Disruptor's 1/12th should keep you from having to invest more Upgrade points into Undetectable but stealth just got a lot harder without just picking up Darkstalker.
Buffed up Yksvoknym Particles Generator to 1/6 range.

Quote
Longo Alcance Radar (II): You gain Spacesense 120 mu plus you can see through fogs as well as obstacles not made of metal as long as they're less than 5 feet thick and within 120 mu, but you take a -1 penalty on Will saves. This takes only 9 arsenal space.

Raios X Radar Avançado(III): You can see through fogs, as well as obstacles not made of metal as long as they're less than 5 feet thick and within 120 mu but take a -1 penalty to all saves. This takes only 9 arsenal space.
Maybe flip flop them?
Ups, Raiox X Radar Avançado should have 240 mu range, fixed.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #477 on: November 02, 2016, 11:03:51 PM »
Hopefully I'll be able to give a more detailed answer later today or tommorrow.
Really, the tl;dr is everything form weapon damage to cost should have had a balancing formula to it. Like cost specific, if you did say 1pt ammo, 2pts sensors, 4pts basic equipment, 6pts refined, you could balance all your costs. Later in post, you can inflated it to a 50~300 point system since the numbers them selves are arbitrary. But if you decided something should cost 225pts it should equal to something like a [basic (4 or 200pts) + 1/2 ammo (0.5 or 25pts)] and if it's not then you know it's cost needs a different value.

Eeerr, Arcane Pilot has plenty of Divinations, from the humble Detect Magic to Locate Object to  Clairaudience/Clairvoyance to Locate Creature to True Seeing, several more all the way to Foresight.
The core problem is you started at the SRD list and then started cutting Spells out which ended up leaving a theme of patchwork (no scry until lv14?). Like you have Alarm sure, and all the other upgrades for personally sleeping safely at night but you can't Fabricate a series of walls to protect more than a half dozen people or Move Earth some trenches in for warfare. What you have is a mech sized magical plate that can hold dirt the caster's mech sized bare hands have to pick up using his mech sized shovel that deals minimal damage to dirt.  :P

Some of the cuts make sense for balance sake, but if you're looking to balance the List then it also needs to be balanced to what the other Classes can do. Like yeah maybe the Arcane Pilot gets the same bonus Feats Super/Real does, but so does the Real/Super and that's not going to change the fact the Real/Super have exclusive extras for attack countering. The Arcane (and divine) should also get their own alternatives too, specially if you feel players need it to begin with.

Why yes, the intention is for Arcane Pilots to specialize in a certain type of magic instead of every mage character knowing all of the uber spell ever without real effort. And any of the spells you mentioned are enough on their own to make the Arcane Pilot a MVP for the party.
>.>
You have a funny way of wanting Arcane Pilots to specialize in a limited report of Spells. For one thing they can't choose a Spell that supports their specialty until a level after they gain the new Spell Level and "Favorite Spell" always shows up a level before you can choose your actual favorite Spell so you always "favor" spells you hate using.

Then as you're doing in the game you can get extra spells through a variety of items.
Yeah but Phantasm Star is a high powered game, some List snatching is expected, and Super Robot Wars the Campaign setting is not forced Gestated & high powered. :p

That being said you can set aside the differences in expected scale and look at the heart of it. Because I had to invest I wanted to increase the return, one thing led to another and in cause and effect Bahamut really doesn't have anything you'd call a cool item, since he's just a dragon on fire that spent most of his wealth trying to obtain Spells Arcane Pilot doesn't have.

And that's ok in the build. The RPs been fun, next level I'm a lot less constrained with my buffs with got me to pick some more interesting ones which are still pretty new to me. But Bahamut & Phantasy Star aside, Arcane Pilot has some problems. Even the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer gets Splat Spells. If you want the Arcane Pilot to really narrow in on some favorites, less choice isn't the solution but more. Like you could cut the default list some more so it's purely basic role fulfilling then triple the open space giving them at least three Spells of every level to pick.

When people are limited they always grab what can give them the most. Like in another lovely SorO analogy. If you're poor you walk into Walk-Mart and throw a bunch of Hamburger in the cart because you can cook that in all kinds of ways and Hamburger Helper literately sells pasta ideas you can create after visiting the baking & spice section. But if you have the money to spend, you might instead walk in and think I want Tacos and BBQ New York strips which just doesn't have Hamburger in every option the guy with more restrictive limits has. You don't have to pick Polymorph's ominous solutions if you can pick up a number of unique Transmutations you like. You don't have to pick up Orb of Acid if you have the spare room to pick up different elemental Spells or even more than one area one Spell. Etc.

You'll always have a narrow section of people that will try to abuse the system much like the rich guy that refuses to pay his taxes, but choice breeds the ability to select things that do not amount to the best swiss army knife.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 12:23:19 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #478 on: November 03, 2016, 01:36:15 AM »
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And Anomander, you seem to have a typo in the formulas for mecha engineer EN
Good catch. Should be correct now.

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Also, Anomander, the Engineer's Maintenance breakthrough. Is it intended that there is no limit to the amount of HP you can repair in one action aside from EN available?
Indeed though it doesn't work as well as it did now that there is so much energy to go around at the early levels. I increased the cost of the repairs to 6 EN per HP, scaling down to 1 EN per HP again at class level 10. It'll be more costy at the mid-late levels than it was before considering the lower energy caps so I'll perhaps make an higher tier maintenance breakthrough to make the first XperY hp restored free to make minor heals only cost the action and make strong heals as expensive as it was in the lower levels. Increased the status effect removal a bit as well.

- Reduced the maximum energy cost of a prototype weapon since energy isn't much of an issue early.
- Gave a higher starting energy to the escape pod breakthroughs.
- I capped overclock. It now doesn't cover energy costs for the movement itself.
- Improved the advanced energy shield since there's less energy to use on it but delayed regen 3.
- SotM; Scratched auto-repair and replaced it with reinforced frame.

That's it for the time being. Will check other stuff later.

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #479 on: November 03, 2016, 02:15:57 AM »
Did Super Robots always have a base Arsenal space before accounting for Hyperdimensional Storage?

Also I just noticed Super Robots have a base Arsenal Space so after I update my character I could still have Arsenal options......this is going to be such a pain going through everything like this to make sure I'm not missing anything niche -_-'