Author Topic: SorO's Handbook Dicussions  (Read 28924 times)

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2014, 12:12:53 PM »
1. Under Artificier, you mention the dedicated wright as being useless ... Ability Rip from Serpent Kingdoms actually isn't that great except for getting rid of undesirable Supernatural abilities you have.
1. Prior to that I mentioned how fundamentally worthless it is for an adventurer to spend any effort on crafting. You're still at XP costs.

Trivial point,
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2.  It only lasts for 1 hour/level, which can still be a nice boon sometimes, but it is definitely nowhere near what you make it out to be.
I know I undersold it, I was originally thinking of combining the Polymorph & ASA to infinity fuel Ability Rip. I can't help but everything I'd say in the entry wouldn't be read as "get Manipulate Form" either.

One of these days I'll fix it, and probably open combination tricks. It's be nice to get the Dark Chaos shuffle in there too.

Offline linklord231

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2014, 01:09:31 PM »
Dedicated Wright lets the Arty do other things while crafting, but doesn't change the fact that you still need months of in game time to make high end stuff, or let him craft multiple items at the same time.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline vaz

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2014, 03:46:03 PM »
At higher levels, you can afford a scroll of genesis (or wish one into existence). Do the whole 10:1 time trait thing. 1 month becomes 3 days. Not to mention any artificer without Exceptional Artisan is going to struggle.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2014, 06:50:56 PM »
At higher levels, you can afford a scroll of genesis (or wish one into existence). Do the whole 10:1 time trait thing. 1 month becomes 3 days. Not to mention any artificer without Exceptional Artisan is going to struggle.
Unless otherwise noted (and Genesis don't), all Time traits default to Normal Time. So no, you don't Genesis anything. You can however planes shift to the Region of Dreams (grayhawk, aka default D&D) or Dal Quar (eberron), Faerun should have one as well but honestly never cared to look.

Dedicated Wright lets the Arty do other things while crafting, but doesn't change the fact that you still need months of in game time to make high end stuff, or let him craft multiple items at the same time.
This is not the homebrew or houserule forum, the Dedicated Wight offers nothing because crafting offers nothing.

Offline snakeman830

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2014, 09:24:34 PM »
Dedicated Wright lets the Arty do other things while crafting, but doesn't change the fact that you still need months of in game time to make high end stuff, or let him craft multiple items at the same time.
This is not the homebrew or houserule forum, the Dedicated Wight offers nothing because crafting offers nothing.
Dedicated Wright does let you get items for cheaper (and you have a class feature that is purely for crafting), so yes, it does offer something.

However, the idea is that you plane shift the Dedicated Wright to Dal Quor (or another fast-time plane) and have it craft there.  Get exactly the item you want at half the cost in a tenth of the time.  Sounds pretty good to me.

Also, something else on the Artificier is that it explicitly does, in fact, have a Caster Level (Infusions have a Caster Level relation just like spells do, it's just neither arcane or divine).  Honestly, there are quite a few things you just got flat-out wrong on the Artificier.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 09:32:18 PM by snakeman830 »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2014, 01:58:19 AM »
1. Dedicated Wright does let you get items for cheaper (and you have a class feature that is purely for crafting), so yes, it does offer something.

2. However, the idea is that you plane shift the Dedicated Wright to Dal Quor (or another fast-time plane) and have it craft there.  Get exactly the item you want at half the cost in a tenth of the time.  Sounds pretty good to me.

3. Also, something else on the Artificier is that it explicitly does, in fact, have a Caster Level (Infusions have a Caster Level relation just like spells do, it's just neither arcane or divine).  Honestly, there are quite a few things you just got flat-out wrong on the Artificier.
1.This statement is 100% against WBL and the quoted Ask Wizards article on this page.

2. Of course, someone has to know what their doing around here.

3. Some of his Infusions reference a caster level, the copy & paste ones at least, but can you honestly prove this is not a same-name fallacy?
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Offline linklord231

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2014, 02:57:27 AM »
SorO, I'm not sure why you keep bringing me in to this.  My line about the Dedicated Wright was a refutation of the idea that they're the "saving grace" of the Artificer, nothing more. 

Once again:  If you have a DM who strictly enforces the Wealth by Level rules (yes, rules), then there is absolutely no point in any Item Creation feat.  If you outfit the party in half price equipment, you don't get twice as much.  The DM is literally supposed to give you half as much treasure to compensate. 

The only time having a crafter is useful is when the DM isn't following the rules, either by not allowing you to buy the items you're entitled to, or by allowing your to break WBL, or both. 



On the other hand, one could make the argument that Artificers do have a Caster Level beyond "for the purposes of item creation".  The Infusions section clearly says that Infusions "function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells."  One of the rules for spells is that you have a Caster Level, usually "equal to the class level in the class you're using to cast the spell (PHB 171)." 
Perhaps it's a false equivocation fallacy, but there's not a lot of evidence to support the idea that there's a tangible distinction between Caster-Level-for-Infusions and Caster-Level-for-Feats, especially when you consider that Caster-Level-for-Infusions also qualifies as Caster-Level-for-PrCs and Caster-Level-for-Items. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2014, 04:30:32 PM »
hmm ... so as a hypothetical, suppose the DM:
 
a) ... handed out correct WBL, but no items at all

b1) ... hard rules of Town building were in effect (rules btw that I like a lot)
b2) ... items that are available for purchase are extremely limited (very small magic marts if at all)

c1) ... then Item Crafting would be worth it
c2) ... though immediately WBL negatively compensated

later when plane shift + teleport come on line (early entry Jaunter anyone?)
d1) ... hey let's go to Sigil, so we can get around b1 + b2 and don't have to deal with c1
d2) ... still have the c2 limit, and quite a bit of out-of-combat adventuring for gear

Yes ?
 :???
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2014, 11:17:01 AM »
If you have a DM who strictly enforces the Wealth by Level rules (yes, rules), then there is absolutely no point in any Item Creation feat.  If you outfit the party in half price equipment, you don't get twice as much.  The DM is literally supposed to give you half as much treasure to compensate.
It goes far beyond that. Read the MiC some time, it tells the DM to give players what they want a dozen times to a point to telling you not to second guess them either. And we're only talking Treasure placement at this point. Under buying it flat out tells you that Players find exactly what they want if the item's price is within the town's GP limit and Rule 0. And the best part, is it exemplifies what you can do with Rule 0 and unlike every other Rule 0 acting as a trump card, it's possible for a Character to bypass them.

The MiC is WotC's official rebuttal to every jackass DM ever.

Perhaps it's a false equivocation fallacy, but there's not a lot of evidence to support the idea that there's a tangible distinction between Caster-Level-for-Infusions and Caster-Level-for-Feats, especially when you consider that Caster-Level-for-Infusions also qualifies as Caster-Level-for-PrCs and Caster-Level-for-Items.
Perhaps, but that's why I choose examples that are not truly based on CL. It's a statement to shatter your line of thinking.

The good news I'm thinking of revising it, and including the blurb from the MiC about how Gather Information can be used to find any Item you want in a town (within gp limits) even if it takes ten years to craft the item and you have five hours to look. Clearly some people need it highlighted in front of them to ever read it.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2014, 04:59:36 PM »
Wanderer's Diplomacy feat ... diplo check to increase town item gp limit.
Not necessary at higher levels.

Resourceful Buyer feat ... +1 to town gp limit.
Worth keeping.

Spinemeld Warrior PrC 2 ... item CL is a Gather Info check.
I'd presume (but not assume) if this is in effect, that what MiC does with GI is somewhat different.



... The MiC is WotC's official rebuttal to every jackass DM ever ...
:D
(no wonder they brought out 4e right after)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 05:01:10 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2014, 06:12:31 PM »
Wanderer's Diplomacy feat ... diplo check to increase town item gp limit.
Not necessary at higher levels.

Resourceful Buyer feat ... +1 to town gp limit.
Worth keeping.
I didn't even know there were Feats like that. Awesome. Those are going somewhere (arty in class boosters? BBB for forced sellers?)

Spinemeld's Noble Familiarity appears to bypass GP Limitations, through the DC is a little higher.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2014, 12:56:40 AM »
Class booster for Assassin or other class with a Death Attack:

Goggles of Scrutiny, Dragon Mag 330 page 68.

Goggles grant wearer a +2 bonus on all search and spot checks.  In addition, any creature with the death attack special ability need only study a potential victim for 2 rounds instead of 3.  Price: 12,000g.

Offline Amechra

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2015, 04:36:32 PM »
For the class boosters, you messed up on one of the one's for the Barbarian; Ettercap Lodge Berserker doesn't give a +2 bonus to Con when raging. It sets the bonus to Con from raging to +6, as well as giving you an inconsequential bonus to saves vs. diseases. It's really, really nice with the variant rages that don't boost Con, like Whirling Frenzy (+4 Str, +6 Con, and an extra attack is excellent, especially at first level.)

Just bumping this forward in case you didn't see it.

Also, Mad-Foam Rager allows you to delay any attack, spell, or ability by one round, not just attacks.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2015, 08:32:38 PM »
Yeah I guess I did miss it.

And both fixed. Thanks.

Offline Amechra

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2015, 11:32:22 PM »
There's also Frantic Rage from Faiths of Eberron.

Requires the Madness Domain and Rage.

It lets you choose to have your bonus to Strength from Raging apply to Dexterity instead.

On top of that, Battlebred from Player's Guide to Eberron increases the duration of Rage (as well as any effect that gives you a Morale bonus) by two rounds.

(I'm not even sure why I like Barbarians as much as I do.)
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Offline Endarire

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2015, 10:36:32 PM »
SorO, you aren't just typing to yourself.  I agreed that Warforged and Kobolds are among the most powerful races, but I also feel Humans should be on that list due to being so very versatile and Dragonborn, despite being a template in 3.5, should be a runner up due to who common a template it is.

Offline Nifft

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2015, 09:25:04 AM »
I noticed that Scout doesn't list Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel p.78) as one of the class-booster feats, but it totally should.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2015, 04:23:16 PM »
Wanderer's Diplomacy feat ... diplo check to increase town item gp limit.
Not necessary at higher levels.

Resourceful Buyer feat ... +1 to town gp limit.
Worth keeping.
I didn't even know there were Feats like that. Awesome. Those are going somewhere (arty in class boosters? BBB for forced sellers?)

Spinemeld's Noble Familiarity appears to bypass GP Limitations, through the DC is a little higher.

(bump --- late return but legit)

Wanderer's Dip is good early when the 1000gp divisor makes almost no diff at all.
http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Wanderer~s_Diplomacy
Later though, it trends toward Nanobots level of skill checks necessary to use.

I figure retraining it away, right when Noble Familiarity
kicks in with a much easier (and normal) check.
Resourceful Buyer is still useful, and in combo.

Clearly a DM can nerf magic mart's enough via
availability, or npc rationalization, or social interaction,
to make this nearly but not totally useless.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2015, 10:13:11 AM »
The Feat is listed under Artificer, near the bottom under Buy Anything.

The DM can nerf anything but remember that's Rule 0 and even then they have to be reasonable about why you can't.
Quote from: MiC pg231~232
Buying and Selling Magic Items
A player points to an item published in this book or the Dungeon Master's Guide and asks , "Can I buy this?" The answer should usually be, "Yes."

Magic items are an important part of every character's arsenal of abilities. Most monsters and encounters assume that characters have a certain amount of gear to make the challenge appropriate. Furthermore, at many levels magic items represent a character's only option for customization; picking lip a new magic ring or bag of potion is significantly more fun than allotting skill points.

That's not to say that you can't apply occasional constraints to how and when magic items can be purchased, only that the constraints should be reasonable and shouldn't prevent players from equipping their characters fairly. For instance, a character seeking a magic item should be in a community whose gold piece limit is equal to or greater than the cost of the desired item (see Table 6-10: Community CP Limits). You might also choose to limit particular items for campaign story reasons- maybe the knowledge of how to create certain items is a closely guarded secret of a particular group, or even forgotten to all.

In general, though, you should allow characters with sufficient funds to equip themselves as they desire. Even the most thoughtfully constructed series of treasure hoards almost certainly fails to provide all your players the items they want to maximize their
enjoyment as they advance in level.
Quote from: MiC pg232
Where to Buy
Large one-stop-shop "magic emporiums" are unrealistic and rare even in metropolis-sized cities. Instead, a community's total stock of magic items for sale is widely distributed among dusty alchemist's shops, bookstores , scribers' boutiques, pawn shops, elixir brewers , the residences of retired adventurers, the old mage on the corner, curio shops, and so on.

Except when you want to advance an adventure or campaign story are, abstract the purchase of a particular magic item such that, given a few hours of effort asking around and tracking down the sought-for item, a PC finds and purchases the item she seeks if it market price is equal to or less than the town's gp limit (given in the "PC Purchase Limit" column of Table 6-10: Community GP Limits).

If time is an issue in the purchase of an item (for example, a pair of goggles of night is needed before nightfall), you might require the PC to attempt a Gather Information check to track the item down. Set the DC of the Gather Information check equal to the DC in the Aura entry of each item (which is equal to 15 + 1/ 2 the item's caster level). If the Gather Information check is successful , the PC finds the item within the time constraint. On a failed check, a PC can check again if time permits.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 11:40:59 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: SorO's Handbook Dicussions
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2015, 12:31:26 PM »
If you outfit the party in half price equipment, you don't get twice as much.  The DM is literally supposed to give you half as much treasure to compensate.
I find this an abusive interpretation. It's like saying "You pillaged the iron doors off the start of the dungeon and are now rich. Somehow, you'll find it difficult to make any additional money for the next twelve months." All the DM is supposed to do is allow 720k total by level 20. If the PCs want to ignore/squander it they may. Don't reward bad play. Also, don't punish good play/investment in magic items.

Quote
The Infusions section clearly says that Infusions "function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells."
Granted, I like nerfing tier 1's (no comment allowed here Soro, we all know how you feel about the arty tier status), but I think Soro is closer to being right here than you are. It's not 100%: you can still limited with an infusion by RAW due to "function like spells." Of course, you can't use ring of the artificer to gain bonus spells for a wizard/arty -- just like sneak attack vs sudden attack one way transparency. But I like the idea that infusions simply function similar to spells so you don't have to learn anything new -- but they still count as a separate system.

tl;dr both soro and linklord are right about crafting: it stretches WBL, but it isn't necessary to find/gain items.