rip and shemmy and others, have posted lots of good stuff, over at Planewalker. iirc - it is an "official" site.
**
big data dump saved via google cache, from the recent board changeover, we'll see if it fits
**
Urithair
12-10-07, 12:09 PM
From what I understand they are entities who existed before the formation of the great wheel, and their presence molded the great wheel into its presents configureation. The ones I am aware of seem to correspond to a particular alignment.
Lady of Pain- N
Asmodeus (?)- LE
Ulgursheck- CE
Mok'slyk- NE
Primus (?)- LN
Does anyone have any information on these beings or know who represents the other alignments? I suspect that the seventh layer of Celesitia might hide the LG being, and I can see CN having a constantly evolving being or perhaps a succession of multiple beings, but that is just theory.
ripvanwormer
12-10-07, 03:23 PM
The Ancient Brethren, as a formal class of beings, should properly be thought of as theoretical, but Jazirian (the hermaphroditic couatl deity) is sometimes said to be one of them (and Asmodeus' counterpart). Jazirian is lawful good, and actually dwells on the fifth layer of Mount Celestia (Jazirian's invisible realm is the sole passage between the fifth and sixth layers).
As long as we're theorizing, I suppose we could add Ssendam as the chaotic neutral one, and the creators of the True Words beneath the sands of Pelion as the chaotic good one.
Shemeska the Marauder
12-10-07, 07:56 PM
From what I understand they are entities who existed before the formation of the great wheel
Ulgursheck- CE
Mok'slyk- NE
Assuming the group even existed as a formal class of beings, which for this thread I'll play along, Ulgursheck wouldn't qualify since as an Obyrith we know that he (and his other kindred) were created after the formation of the planes themselves, comprising a 2nd tier of primordial outsiders rather than an original or pre-existant group.
Mok'slyk isn't NE, and the name only appears AFAIK in an amazingly obscure comic book and on wikipedia (in a stub article that really needs to be nominated for deletion). It's a name for Vecna's Serpent, which depending on the source either doesn't exist and is just a name given to his own madness, or is a personification of epic magic, or an alias of Asmodeus, or a gestalt being formed from the souls of Vecna's mortal ancestors. Of course only in one of those cases would it qualify for status as a primordial entity for the sake of this thread.
meigin
12-10-07, 08:33 PM
If I'm not mistaken Asmodeus was once a Solar / angel seving the powers of Law / Good who after battling the forces of Chaos for so long came to the conclusion that the only way to defeat them was to adopt some of their ways and methods - eventually leading him fall.
The powers then expelled him where he established his own realm the Hells.
Based on this history Asmodeus is at least second possibly even a third tier being.
Taeldrin Laesrash
12-10-07, 11:04 PM
More sources have said that the Serpent is Vecna's madness than other reasons combined. The NE ancient title would probably go to the Baernoloths, unless they have some even more depraved parent.
I'd also throw in Center-of-All, the supposed Rilmani leader, as well as the progeniters of the mirror race from Beyond the Infinite Staircase. I figure they must be pretty old, and stand for the timeless concept of balance.
Talisman
12-10-07, 11:04 PM
In official D&D canon, Asmodeus was never an angel of any sort, but a primal spirit of Law who became corrupted by Evil (one of the two Serpents of Law, IIRC). I think his original name was Aeshma.
And if Ssendam qualiifies, then Ygorl certainly must. Although I was never clear as to their exact lineage...are the Slaad Lords simply slaadi who evolved to a state embodying chaos, or true Ancestors of the Slaad People?
The Lady of Pain is LN, isn't she?
Shemeska the Marauder
12-10-07, 11:39 PM
In official D&D canon, Asmodeus was never an angel of any sort, but a primal spirit of Law who became corrupted by Evil (one of the two Serpents of Law, IIRC). I think his original name was Aeshma.
Not exactly.
The idea of twin serpents of Law only appears in one sourcebook, and is contradicted by multiple others. 2e's 'Guide to Hell' had some wacky ideas.
Across the multiple, contradictory sources however, it can generally be agreed that Asmodeus was one of, or more likely a servitor to, the early powers of abstract Law. Eventually he became aware of and was then corrupted by the expanding influence of abstract Evil within the multiverse, though the ultimate cause of that corruption (intentional, incidental, etc) is up for debate.
The existance of a LG twin to Asmodeus also only appeared in that one book and the idea seems to have been dropped subsequently.
are the Slaad Lords simply slaadi who evolved to a state embodying chaos, or true Ancestors of the Slaad People?
Good question. Potentially both.
That said, I believe that it has been implied that Ssemdam is older than Ygorl.
The Lady of Pain is LN, isn't she?
*chuckle*
According to the 3.5 Planar Handbook, but the authors gave a reason that frankly doesn't fit with her history and examples of her actions over the published material, nor does it fit with the intentions of the original authors of the Planescape line. The original Planescape team found it pretty laughable as well IIRC from some of their comments on the whole thing.
If anything she's TN, and I could see a case being made for CN.
meigin
12-11-07, 12:00 AM
In official D&D canon, Asmodeus was never an angel of any sort, but a primal spirit of Law who became corrupted by Evil (one of the two Serpents of Law, IIRC). I think his original name was Aeshma.
this is a quote from Fiendish Codex II: The Nine Hells (page 4)
"Gradually, however, the deities of Law began to suspect that the supply of demons was infinite. Weary of battle, they wished to move on to other projects, such the creation of worlds and intelligent beings. So they made winged warriors to serve them and weild their divine magic, both in the endless war against the demons and in the worlds yet to be created. These beings, glorious in their diversity, were called angels.
The bravest, toughest, fiercest, and most beautiful of the angels was Asmodeus. He slew more demons than any other of his kind - more even than any deity. ut as the eons wore on, Asmodeus and the members of his magnificent and terrible company began to take on some of their enemies' traits, so as to fight them more effectively. Gradually, their beauty turned to ugliness, and the deities and other angels began to fear them.
Eventually, the inhabitants of the celestial realms petitioned the great gods to banish Asmodeus and the most fearsome of his avenging angels. So Asmodeus was put on trial before Heironeous, the god of valor."
Sorry, my friend but this is as cannon as it gets.
Mrloki
12-11-07, 12:49 AM
so one book says that...not that big of a deal lol...alot of other books point in other directions!
Shemeska the Marauder
12-11-07, 03:16 AM
Sorry, my friend but this is as cannon as it gets.
Of course that particular "canon" is overtly presented as myth, and myth that admittedly might not even be historically factual in-game. At the very least it presents a revisionist history of earlier events, with modern gods' names inserted (which radically vary from world to world), and modern terminology used (angels for instance). It also has some inherent contradictions with some accepted bits of lower planar history from other sources, so take it purely with a grain of salt.
meigin
12-11-07, 06:11 AM
Of course that particular "canon" is overtly presented as myth, and myth that admittedly might not even be historically factual in-game. At the very least it presents a revisionist history of earlier events, with modern gods' names inserted (which radically vary from world to world), and modern terminology used (angels for instance). It also has some inherent contradictions with some accepted bits of lower planar history from other sources, so take it purely with a grain of salt.
speaking of cliches, this may "rub some the wrong way", but I'm not much of one for salt, nor that particular point of view - apologies.
If we are going to revert to in-house opinions then we must clearly state that, less published work (current) be the source - unless clearly by consensus it is tripe.
Moving on - Heironeous is a deity as old as D&D itself - circa 1st edition Greyhawk (which I have a copy of).
The story of Asmodeus presented in FFII is obviously the most current account of him and others for some time. Didn't 2nd edition have to gloss over due to the holy rollers afecting the themes and terminology used in D&D due to some psychologically effected fellow biting it?
Lastly, if I recall an article in Dragon Magazine related a very similar back history for Asmodeus some time back (perhaps approx 12yrs or so) - i'll attempt to sight if found.
again apologies, but this is my point of view and historical sighting (via game product), and not intended to wound.
happy hunting.
sciborg3
12-11-07, 06:36 PM
Basically as far as I've ever been able to tell, there are certain storylines that people have chosen to follow. Anyone mentioned below could count as primordial entities. (maybe the ancient brethren?)
One story is from 1e where iirc the primordial entities are the Old Ones, who are so far outside the multiverse that for a PC to become one is to have "won" D&D. This has never been mentioned since afaik. I also believe that in terms of the Abyss it was in 1e that Verin - Grazz't's advisor - is said to be from a proto-demon race that precedes the tanar'ri - though this gets into Gygax's Gord novels so may be far outside of canon.
In 2e prior to Planescape, there was mention of powers that created the multiverse, and that the plane of Concordant Opposition was the tract of infinite space they'd given to the powers of Law...who messed it up and made it a mishmash of alignment. These super-powers then took these kiddies and put them in Nirvana and created enforcers of Nirvana's lawful state known as mediators - the mediators have infinite wishes. In Monster Mythology, it is theorized (by the dragons) that Io (head honcho god of dragons) precedes the Multiverse and all other gods - he's the primordial of primordials. It is Io's blood that allows the other gods to begin to create things as the Ninefold Dragon turns the true empty Void into the Shadow Void. Note that, iirc, it doesn't specifically say Io created the other gods.
The idea from 2e's Planescape campaign is that the primordial fiends are the baernoloths, and that they create the other fiendish races from the leftovers of Order and Chaos that they removed from their own creations, the yugoloths. The demodands are the work of a rogue baern, Apomps the Triple Aspected. The baern, however, are incredibly weak for the supposed creators of all fiends though some have suggested that just like Dr. Frankenstein and his monster the created can surpass the creator. However, the Lords of Nine are seen as incredibly powerful beings beyond devils, with the mysterious Lord of the Ruby Rod possibly ejecting the Orcish pantheon from Hell. They are, in fact, the only planar lords thought, like the gods, to be beyond stats though this was likely due to continuity problems that have plagued D&D for time immemorial. Planescape also introduced (afaik) the idea that there were primordial beings of Chaotic Good that left Aborea and that it seems tunnels in Pandemonium seem carved (burrowed?) somehow...Planescape also mentioned some sleeping dudes in the ether that might be dreaming this or another multiverse up. The Lady of Pain is introduced as the supposed ruler of Sigil, though who/what she is has never been made clear. She hates being worshipped, she apparently keeps gods and planar lords out of Sigil, and her shadow flays beings alive. She can also send people into demiplanar mazes from which escape is possible but really, really unlikely iirc.
2e's Guide to Hell posited that Asmodeus and Jarizan were the primordial Twin Serpents whose bodies held the planes in the Great Wheel formation. Some have thought to connect the Serpent Asmo to Vecna's Serpent though I don't think this has ever been done in canon. Asmo is powered by unbelief, and the author mistakenly used the Athar (the only potential monotheists in the game) as stand-ins for atheists in D&D whose souls are devoured by Asmo to heal his super-serpent form.
2e's culmination in Die Vecna Die talks about ancient beings whose number included the Serpent that spoke to Vecna and the Lady of Pain. If I recall it was the Lady of Pain's healing of reality after the PCs defeat Vecna that changes 2e to 3e. DvD has been criticized by many for playing loose with the settings Planescape and Ravenloft...possibly Greyhawk too...additionally I don't believe any part of this adventure has been even hinted at in 3e. Still, you gotta admit, it was cool.
3e gave us competing mythologies where one can in theory attempt to resolve into some kind of likely planar history but I rather like the idea of competing/complimentary options DM can pick and choose from:
-One possibility is that the Abyss is THE primordial entity from which all the other planes sprang.
-Another is the story of Asmo related above. I don't remember how the book presents the story - as a myth or definitive planar history. Those powers of Law might be Ancient Brethren - or maybe whoever created them is.
-IC (afaik) mentions are made on the above baern theory in Dragon and Fiendish Codex I, and iirc OOC mention in Dragon (Shemmy's demiplane article?)
-Manual of the Planes leaves the Asmo story as a rumor. There is yugoloth lich mentioned here as well.
-The Far Realms lies outside the accepted Multiverse, though I don't think any book clearly said the Far Realms precedes it or that the Multiverse rose from the Far Realms. Maybe Lords of Madness?
-I do recall Lords of Madness states that the aboleths precede the existence of at least the current batch of gods, and thus the beings they worship (or just respect?) do as well. It should be noted that these Elder Evils - creatures of the Far Realms - are largely uncaring about the Multiverse save for one that is actively evil and one that might be considered beneficial since it seeks to uphold the border between the Multiverse and the Far Realms.
-some have said that because the aboleths precede the gods, it means the planar lords are older than the gods. however, older isn't necessarily more powerful and it should be noted that last i recall in Fiendish Codex II Asmo wanted to become a god. But damned...errrr...darn if I can remember. Suffice to say that as always the distinction and power level of gods vs planar lords remains unclear. (save perhaps in 1e when we had stats for all these blokes)
-The LeShay come from a timeline that no longer exists - never touched on again as far as I know. Who knows what happened there.
-Erebus, mentioned in Dragon, is the god of darkness and preceded creation. He schemes to bring the multiverse into dark nothingess once more.
-Black blots, or whatever they're called from the Epic Level Handbook, may be a race of beings that killed their makers who were gods...or something.
-Elder Evils - one of the capstones to 3rd Edition, offers us beings such as Atropus that are primordial entropic anti-gods.
-Ao created the planes used in the Far Realm setting, or at least the world of Aber-Toril...but now it all has something to do with aboleths i've heard...
In 4e, the Abyss is born when iirc Boccob throws Tharizdun's seed of evil into the Elemental Tempest, and as far as I can tell much later Asmodeus betrays the god he served and commits deicide, resulting in the devils being trapped in Hell unless summoned. Note Hell is no longer Infinite, but merely the size of a prime world, making one wonder if Asmo becoming a greater god was actually a demotion. The Abyss has been stated to be "as big as Jupiter" by one 4e designer but in game texts say it is thousands of miles large. Of course all this is subject to change. The Abyss is ruled - in a sense - by Demogorgon though demons are now much more animalistic and savage so what "rule" means is kinda unclear.
There are almost definitely more theories presented in 3e (and the other editions) but this is all I have right now on primordial beings.
Shemeska the Marauder
12-11-07, 08:25 PM
One story is from 1e where iirc the primordial entities are the Old Ones, who are so far outside the multiverse that for a PC to become one is to have "won" D&D. This has never been mentioned since afaik.
Yeah that was the non-advanced D&D thing, and outside of the random use of black balls in the 3e ELH, and two references in 3.5 to Draedens, that whole continuity was a seperate thing from the 1e/2e/3.x multiverse.
I also believe that in terms of the Abyss it was in 1e that Verin - Grazz't's advisor - is said to be from a proto-demon race that precedes the tanar'ri - though this gets into Gygax's Gord novels so may be far outside of canon.
I want to say that that's entirely from the Gord novels, and not anything present in D&D.
-IC (afaik) mentions are made on the above baern theory in Dragon and Fiendish Codex I, and iirc OOC mention in Dragon (Shemmy's demiplane article?)
FC:I mentions the baernaloths as a possible creation myth for the obyriths, and later on lends it some considerable evidence in its favor in the section dealing with Yeenoghu and Bechard (Bechard claims the obyriths are not originally native to the Abyss, but were created by a much older race of primordial fiends, and subsequently were abandoned/exiled/sent to the Abyss). This is later given further credence in a Dragon article dealing with various archfiends imprisoned in the Wells of Darkness. It's revealed that one of the oldest obyriths, Cabiri, was imprisoned after he combed the depths of the Abyss, searching for the truth of his race's origins. Whatever Cabiri found, it ultimately had him searching for the baernaloths, and being imprisoned for apparently having found out too much regarding their role (the particulars of course are deliciously flexible).
My particular bit was a reference to Harishek ap Thulkesh, the Blind Clockmaker, in Dragon 353. While he as a baern gets formally named, I don't touch upon the history (no room to do so).
There's a final baernaloth reference in the final issue of Dragon, which puts the release of Shaktari from the Wells of Darkness at the hand of an unnamed baernaloth who wanted to see her once again take an active roll in the Blood War. While it suggests they have the power to imprison and release inhabitants of the Wells of Darkness, and that they have an interest in the course of the Blood War, it doesn't overtly get into anything beyond that insinuation. It's a nice reference though.
-I do recall Lords of Madness states that the aboleths precede the existence of at least the current batch of gods, and thus the beings they worship (or just respect?) do as well. It should be noted that these Elder Evils - creatures of the Far Realms - are largely uncaring about the Multiverse save for one that is actively evil and one that might be considered beneficial since it seeks to uphold the border between the Multiverse and the Far Realms.
James Jacobs' ideas on the Aboleths seems to be that they were the first (complex?) mortal life on the prime material, created (perhaps incidentally) by Piscaethes the Blood Queen. She and her kindred aren't so much older than gods as they exist in a different reality that doesn't share the same flow of time (and it might be the same for us to there).
-some have said that because the aboleths precede the gods, it means the planar lords are older than the gods.
It's been pretty well established now I think that some early version of the planes, and some of its earliest beings, entirely predate the existance of gods, mortal life, and even the existance of the prime material plane. But as you say, older doesn't necessarily mean more powerful.
ripvanwormer
12-11-07, 09:46 PM
Various things.
Ulgurshek is a draeden, not an obyrith.
Heironeous is not as old as D&D. He first appeared in a published source in 1982, while the original Dungeons & Dragons game was published in 1974 (he did appear in Gary Gygax's home campaign, as one of the nine demigods imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk, but this was a brief cameo, and he didn't reappear until the 1982 Dragon Magazine article. It's also worth noting that he is not officially considered to be one of Zagig's prisoners). In-game, he's a relatively young god, a son of the demigoddess Stern Alia (making him, at the very least, second-generation). Stern Alia, a goddess with the portfolio of Oeridian culture, is presumedly not older than the Oeridian people, while Asmodeus' fall was around the same time, or prior to, the Battle of Pesh between the Wind Dukes and the obyriths (which almost certainly predated the birth of humanity). Heironeous' first paladin was anointed about 1200 years ago (by the priest Arnd of Tdon), so Heironeous probably isn't much older than that. St. Cuthbert is even younger; he's been a god for less than 600 years according to Dragon #100 (and this matches other sources). It doesn't really work for either of them to be around at the time of Asmodeus' fall. It does, however, work for the myth in the Fiendish Codex II to be simply that: a myth, which is all it claims to be.
Even in the myth, Asmodeus dates from a time before the "gods of Law" knew either Good or Evil, so would have initially been a lawful neutral being corrupted by his war with the obyriths into lawful evil. The myth is very clear that his role was to enforce Law only, not to serve the greater good. He is not, therefore, an "angel" in the sense the word is used in the Monster Manual, though he may have been an angel in some other sense that isn't related to alignment.
The only print Dragon article that portrays Asmodeus as ever having been anything like an angel is "The Politics of Hell," which was published in 1979. It started with a disclaimer assuring us it wasn't official D&D canon, and - as it was written before half the archdevils were introduced into D&D - it contradicts even 1st edition sources, like the MMII. For example, it claims Asmodeus has been the ruler of Hell for only a century or so, that no single devil rules over Avernus, Minauros, Phlegethon, Stygia, or Cania, and that Belial no longer lives in Hell at all (having followed Satan after Baalzebul's coup).
I should also note that James Jacobs' Demonomicon articles agree that the obyriths - such as Dagon, the Queen of Chaos, and Obox-ob - are older than any of the gods.
Verin has never been called proto-demon in any source, official or otherwise, not in the Gord books nor anywhere else. Pazuzu was, which is why he was made an obyrith in 3e.
The "Elder Evils" might conceivably be the same as the draedens. They're similar in appearance and fit that role chronologically. Whether the draedens are the same as the Elder Brethren depends on what you think the Elder Brethren are, and how you choose to define them. If draedens are Elder Brethren, then the Elder Brethren are not a group of beings associated with the nine alignments. Draedens are associated with the cold void before the Outer Planes, or any of the alignments associated with them, came into being. They predate the appearance of obyriths or baernaloths in the multiverse. If Asmodeus, Jazirian, the Serpent, or the Lady of Pain are Elder Brethren, then the Elder Brethren are likely far younger than the draedens. The Lady, of course, is an enigma, and we cannot date her with any certainty. She might be a draeden for all I know, and Sigil might be her body.
The Black Scrolls of Ahm, an in-character source in the Fiendish Codex I, do suggest that the Abyss might have been the original plane from which all other things came, but it suggests the Abyss wasn't originally evil. Rather, it became so after what was good or neutral in it was removed by the gods of Law and used to create other things. Another way of phrasing that is that the Abyss was originally the chaotic neutral plane. However, this isn't well supported by any out-of-character source.
Eat your salt. It's good for you.
Shemeska the Marauder
12-11-07, 11:52 PM
Various things.
Ulgurshek is a draeden, not an obyrith.
Whoops. Got him confused there with the Malgoth.
I blame a long day at work.
meigin
12-12-07, 12:42 AM
Heironeous is not as old as D&D. He first appeared in a published source in 1982, while the original Dungeons & Dragons game was published in 1974 (he did appear in Gary Gygax's home campaign, as one of the nine demigods imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk, but this was a brief cameo, and he didn't reappear until the 1982 Dragon Magazine article. It's also worth noting that he is not officially considered to be one of Zagig's prisoners). In-game, he's a relatively young god, a son of the demigoddess Stern Alia (making him, at the very least, second-generation). Stern Alia, a goddess with the portfolio of Oeridian culture, is presumedly not older than the Oeridian people, while Asmodeus' fall was around the same time, or prior to, the Battle of Pesh between the Wind Dukes and the obyriths (which almost certainly predated the birth of humanity). Heironeous' first paladin was anointed about 1200 years ago (by the priest Arnd of Tdon), so Heironeous probably isn't much older than that. St. Cuthbert is even younger; he's been a god for less than 600 years according to Dragon #100 (and this matches other sources). It doesn't really work for either of them to be around at the time of Asmodeus' fall. It does, however, work for the myth in the Fiendish Codex II to be simply that: a myth, which is all it claims to be.
Even in the myth, Asmodeus dates from a time before the "gods of Law" knew either Good or Evil, so would have initially been a lawful neutral being corrupted by his war with the obyriths into lawful evil. The myth is very clear that his role was to enforce Law only, not to serve the greater good. He is not, therefore, an "angel" in the sense the word is used in the Monster Manual, though he may have been an angel in some other sense that isn't related to alignment.
The only print Dragon article that portrays Asmodeus as ever having been anything like an angel is "The Politics of Hell," which was published in 1979. It started with a disclaimer assuring us it wasn't official D&D canon, and - as it was written before half the archdevils were introduced into D&D - it contradicts even 1st edition sources, like the MMII. For example, it claims Asmodeus has been the ruler of Hell for only a century or so, that no single devil rules over Avernus, Minauros, Phlegethon, Stygia, or Cania, and that Belial no longer lives in Hell at all (having followed Satan after Baalzebul's coup).
Eat your salt. It's good for you.
My god, pardon a pun, but are you actually an undefined Elder Brethren?
information and points taken.
ripvanwormer
12-12-07, 12:57 AM
Whoops. Got him confused there with the Malgoth.
I blame a long day at work.
Haha, you're one of the very few people who needs an excuse for a mistake as esoteric as that.
sciborg3
12-12-07, 01:31 AM
I totally forgot the draeden...:embarrass. I wonder if any planar history will be covered in Elder Evils...
Shemeska the Marauder
12-12-07, 01:56 AM
I totally forgot the draeden...:embarrass. I wonder if any planar history will be covered in Elder Evils...
Probably, but I don't expect it to necessarily be coherent with what we already know. Of course I could be wrong. For whatever nitpicking I can do on FC:II (same author), it had a few amazingly obscure references to make it clear that (unlike some WotC staff designers) they're pretty damn familiar with the source material.
We'll see, but I cancelled my preorder for the book (along with every WotC preorder), so I might not get my hands on it for some time to check.
ripvanwormer
12-12-07, 02:18 AM
I totally forgot the draeden...:embarrass. I wonder if any planar history will be covered in Elder Evils...
The previews are up (
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20...). It looks like one of the beings in that book will be an obyrith (and James Jacobs wrote part of the book, though he doesn't get cover credit). Most of the creatures seem to be beings "from beyond the Multiverse" or "from a parallel plane," though, so they aren't really part of the Great Wheel cosmology. Others, like Kyuss and the Leviathan, are from the Material Plane and thus not "planar." You could make a claim that Atropus' history (the creator of everything, reborn as a sort of negative-energy placenta) applies to the entire multiverse, but the Eberron and Faerunian sections make it sound like the most we can really credit it for is that it played some part in the creation of a single world or crystal sphere, or of the gods of that world.
Ragnorra seems, based on her description in the Introduction, to be another thing that I might lump in with the draedens.
sciborg3
12-12-07, 02:35 PM
We'll see, but I cancelled my preorder for the book (along with every WotC preorder), so I might not get my hands on it for some time to check.
The previews are up.
yeah i saw these as well - so far things look interesting but definitely not planar centered. It makes sense as something that dealt with the planes would need to account for why no alliance of planar beings could defeat such a creature or go into something as complex (hopefully as good) as Savage Tide.
Shemeska the Marauder
12-12-07, 02:58 PM
Haven't bought anything from WotC since they killed Dragon and Dungeon. Unless or until the digital version is up to par (responding to queries would be a nice start) I'm not spending $ on them, plus the direction 4e is going has me more than a bit jaded, so my money is going towards other things (like halloween this year (arcanofox.foxpaws.net/halloween2007/DSC0...))
yeah i saw these as well - so far things look interesting but definitely not planar centered.
Very true, but seeing Pandorym in the table of contents gets a spark of interest from me.
ripvanwormer
12-12-07, 06:16 PM
yeah i saw these as well - so far things look interesting but definitely not planar centered. It makes sense as something that dealt with the planes would need to account for why no alliance of planar beings could defeat such a creature or go into something as complex (hopefully as good) as Savage Tide.
There was a mention of Orcus invading Gaping Maw in there somewhere; that was probably a reference to the Savage Tide aftermath.
Thanael
12-13-07, 07:56 AM
so my money is going towards other things (like halloween this year (arcanofox.foxpaws.net/halloween2007/DSC0...))
Yikes! Awesome costume...
Urithair
12-13-07, 03:47 PM
Thanks for the info, I guess I should just focus on beings that predated the gods instead of a specific group of them. Does anyone have any information on Ulgersheck? I need a nice CE exemplar to wreck havok in my new campaign.
awaken_D_M_golem
01-26-08, 03:54 PM
One story is from 1e where iirc the primordial entities are the Old Ones, who are so far outside the multiverse that for a PC to become one is to have "won" D&D. This has never been mentioned since afaik.
In 2e prior to Planescape, there was mention of powers that created the multiverse, and that the plane of Concordant Opposition was the tract of infinite space they'd given to the powers of Law...who messed it up and made it a mishmash of alignment. These super-powers then took these kiddies and put them in Nirvana and created enforcers of Nirvana's lawful state known as mediators - the mediators have infinite wishes. In Monster Mythology, it is theorized (by the dragons) that Io (head honcho god of dragons) precedes the Multiverse and all other gods - he's the primordial of primordials. It is Io's blood that allows the other gods to begin to create things as the Ninefold Dragon turns the true empty Void into the Shadow Void. Note that, iirc, it doesn't specifically say Io created the other gods.
Planescape also introduced (afaik) the idea that there were primordial beings of Chaotic Good that left Aborea and that it seems tunnels in Pandemonium seem carved (burrowed?) somehow...Planescape also mentioned some sleeping dudes in the ether that might be dreaming this or another multiverse up.
2e's culmination in Die Vecna Die talks about ancient beings whose number included the Serpent that spoke to Vecna and the Lady of Pain. If I recall it was the Lady of Pain's healing of reality after the PCs defeat Vecna that changes 2e to 3e.
-One possibility is that the Abyss is THE primordial entity from which all the other planes sprang.
-I do recall Lords of Madness states that the aboleths precede the existence of at least the current batch of gods, and thus the beings they worship (or just respect?) do as well.
-Erebus, mentioned in Dragon, is the god of darkness and preceded creation. He schemes to bring the multiverse into dark nothingess once more.
Erebus - Which Dragon # ??
Taeldrin Laesrash
01-26-08, 06:51 PM
Erebus - Which Dragon # ??
#322, I believe (The one with the city on the Plane of Shadow). I'm guessing the authors were trying to stick to the Greek source material.
Gray Richardson
01-26-08, 08:15 PM
The idea of twin serpents of Law only appears in one sourcebook, and is contradicted by multiple others.Not just one sourcebook, the twin serpents myth is mentioned in The Manual of the Planes too. And arguably, Fiendish Codex II also reaffirms portions of this myth in the lore regarding the region called the Serpent's Coil in the ninth circle of Hell.
Gray Richardson
01-26-08, 08:35 PM
Even in the myth, Asmodeus dates from a time before the "gods of Law" knew either Good or Evil, so would have initially been a lawful neutral being corrupted by his war with the obyriths into lawful evil. The myth is very clear that his role was to enforce Law only, not to serve the greater good. He is not, therefore, an "angel" in the sense the word is used in the Monster Manual, though he may have been an angel in some other sense that isn't related to alignment.They never really developed the Justicators much (from Monster Manual 3) who were servants of law in the way that Angels are the servants of good. We don't know anything about their hierarchy, but I wonder if Asmodeus could have possibly been a justicator paragon. Perhaps a unique justicator paragon. Perhaps Jazirian was once one as well. If they arose before the time of humanity, it might explain why they looked like serpents as well. Asmodeus could have adopted his humanoid form later.
Shemeska the Marauder
01-26-08, 09:03 PM
Not just one sourcebook, the twin serpents myth is mentioned in The Manual of the Planes too. And arguably, Fiendish Codex II also reaffirms portions of this myth in the lore regarding the region called the Serpent's Coil in the ninth circle of Hell.
No they don't. They mention that asmo might have a true form buried within the serpents coil, etc. But nowhere does the MotP or FC:II dredge up the idea of Asmo and Jazirian as twin serpents of law. They take a thematic element from GtH, but the Twin Serpents mythology was never again used outside of its original source.
Grod_The_Giant
01-26-08, 10:37 PM
wow. This is worse then anything I've seen in comics. Personally, my inclination here is to not try and find "the truth" in the huge jumble of conflicting sourcebooks from 3 editions and multiple publishers, but rather to take your pick of the stories- whatever you like best. Or, better yet, make up your own.
PS: Is that costume for real? 'Cause if it is...that's the most badass thing I've seen all day.
Gray Richardson
01-27-08, 12:55 AM
No they don't. They mention that asmo might have a true form buried within the serpents coil, etc. But nowhere does the MotP or FC:II dredge up the idea of Asmo and Jazirian as twin serpents of law. They take a thematic element from GtH, but the Twin Serpents mythology was never again used outside of its original source.I see what you are saying, in so far as the myth is repeated without mentioning Jazirian. However, it is the same myth that is being referenced, even if it leaves out some of the details with each retelling. The Manual of the Planes references the falling part, and the dripping blood creating devils part, and the him being a cosmic snake part, and the deepest pit of Nessus named the Serpent's Coil. While FCII also retells the falling part, the blood dripping part, and the deepest pit of Nessus named the Serpent's Coil part.
It's the same myth in each book, and arguably incorporates the details of the original myth by reference, even if the myth is not recounted in full. What's more, there is obviously something compelling about the myth for subsequent authors to keep mentioning it. I merely point out that I think the myth has more currency and import than you would give it credit.
Now, I don't maintain that the myth is necessarily true. I am intrigued by the idea that Jazirian and Asmo might have once together comprised a greater unified being, a Serpent of Law, or Axis of Law, split from each other eons ago when the concepts of good and evil distilled from the early universe. And I would like to keep the notion around as a possible answer to the great mystery of Asmodeus' (and Jazirian's) origin.
I am open to competing and conflicting origin theories. But I hate to see this one dismissed as some crackpot theory tossed off on a whim by some errant, hack author. The myth has resonance for me and I think people should give it due consideration.
awaken_D_M_golem
01-28-08, 04:44 PM
#322 ...
Thanks.
@ Grod_The_Giant ---> You could just trust the Yugoloths. They came first. And now they're changing their name to appear softer and fluffier for Democrats and Independents who aren't used to voting for Yugoloths.
WotC / D&D has enough material to publish a bigger timeline than Grand History of The Realms.
ripvanwormer has pulled most of the outline together; I mean heck, the Realms is 99.8% not the greater history.
Kinda Realms-o-centric.
My recent activity here would put the "deep" time of D&D at:
le'Shays
Atropus (prime mover)
Erebus
Far Realms
Perpendicular *Place* of Pandorym
and possibly some other small stuff
like the Watchers from Marvel (hey, you never know)
Taeldrin Laesrash
01-28-08, 11:06 PM
WotC / D&D has enough material to publish a bigger timeline than Grand History of The Realms.
ripvanwormer has pulled most of the outline together; I mean heck, the Realms is 99.8% not the greater history.
Kinda Realms-o-centric.
Given WotC's stance towards the cosmology in regards to past resources, I don't think they'd really care for a compilation of the info they're ignoring.
The Realms may not be the most important, but they have by far the most detail, and people running their games using that detail.
sciborg3
01-29-08, 11:33 AM
It's ironic they publish a product about realm's history at the time when they want to take a hammer to the realms precisely because they feel that the history is too constraining....
for authors who want to write novels. Aka for realm's designers who want to write novels and make money off them. way to milk the system boy-o.
Taeldrin Laesrash
01-29-08, 09:04 PM
It's ironic they publish a product about realm's history at the time when they want to take a hammer to the realms precisely because they feel that the history is too constraining....
for authors who want to write novels. Aka for realm's designers who want to write novels and make money off them. way to milk the system boy-o.
I guess it's something of a farewell package:
"Here's the Realms you know love. You ain't seeing this restrictive piece of junk again, so enjoy it while you can."