Author Topic: Discussion and Suggestion Thread  (Read 199843 times)

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Discussion and Suggestion Thread
« on: November 11, 2011, 03:09:29 PM »
If you don't want this here, then that is fine.

I would like to start this off by saying that a Warheart-item equivalent for this would be BEYOND epic.

Perhaps have it replace the weapon's normal attack 1/round with the Spellshape attack from that Circle, and the Formula can be 1/Encounter?

That way, you could have a +2 Greathammer of Crushing Stone, that would let you use the Rockslam spellshape attack as a Spellshaper of your ECL 1/round, with the ability to use Earth Tremor 1/Encounter.

Combine that with +2 Chain Mail of Plummeting Blow, and your random knight becomes SCARY.

Hmm... now I want to design a soulknife equivalent that gets Warheart-equivalent weapons instead of normal weapon enhancements.

I hope this gave you some ideas.

Another idea would be to have a PrC that combines this with Shadowcasting. Please? Anyone?
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline DonQuixote

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 05:45:00 PM »
First of all, stickied, because this is a good thread to have.

I would like to start this off by saying that a Warheart-item equivalent for this would be BEYOND epic.

Perhaps have it replace the weapon's normal attack 1/round with the Spellshape attack from that Circle, and the Formula can be 1/Encounter?

That way, you could have a +2 Greathammer of Crushing Stone, that would let you use the Rockslam spellshape attack as a Spellshaper of your ECL 1/round, with the ability to use Earth Tremor 1/Encounter.

Combine that with +2 Chain Mail of Plummeting Blow, and your random knight becomes SCARY.

Hmm... now I want to design a soulknife equivalent that gets Warheart-equivalent weapons instead of normal weapon enhancements.

Definitely an idea that I'll be considering once I get all the new stuff up.  I always forget that spellshaping materials can be intended for non-spellshaping-based characters.

Another idea would be to have a PrC that combines this with Shadowcasting. Please? Anyone?

If only I knew how shadowcasting worked...!

In all seriousness, though, don't shadowcasters get to take prestige classes that require casting levels--such as Archmage of the Tower Conclave?
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2011, 11:27:29 PM »
Well, they COULD, but it would be less awesome.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline DonQuixote

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2011, 11:56:48 PM »
Guess I'll look into it, then.

Also, a lot of new stuff went up a few hours ago--races, classes, alternative class features, feats, and racial substitution levels.  I'm about to start work on getting the two new circles up.

Edit: New circles are up.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 02:13:57 AM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2011, 02:28:09 AM »
Reading through it now. Good stuff like before, I suspect.

I think your Aging table is incorrect. It looks like a copy/paste of the starting age table.

Water Stoichen seem a little bit off compared to the other options. Their normal ability is water breathing and swimming (useful, but very specific and fine for a racial), but their SLA is a cantrip. Poison immunity is nice, though. It would also be nice if their 5th level Elemental Adept 1 sub ability could give something associated with the water/cold spellshapes similar to the other elements. It just feels like the odd man out in that regard.

Caymir Anchorite 1 and Stoichen Elemental Adept 1 seem like awfully big changes for a single level. I do like the idea of turning you into your pet elemental. Maybe you could expand the range of the elemental auras to your normal melee reach instead of adjacent only, though? Being that close can actually be pretty difficult when reaches rise.

Anchorite looks like a Divine Mind with spellshaping instead of psionics and competence instead of suck. And Savant seems to have inherited the Archivist's non-spellcasting class features.

Battle Sage has the problem of getting something now (Int to AC and defensive shaping Conc checks) for nothing until later. Maybe move the AC and Concentration bonuses up to 3rd level (when you miss Int to Will), then add something else as a minor bonus at 9th and 15th to make up for the other two saves you're losing out on getting Int to (say, Int to spellshape damage rolls or attack rolls). Light armor proficiency, increased HD size, and armored shaping don't really matter unless you invest levels into the class to take advantage of them, so they can probably stay at 1st level without being a problem.

Elemental Spirit seems fair. You give up your elemental companion (a major part of the class) for a variety of helpful abilities that scale with and are appropriate to your level. Looks like a few of them were curbed from the Wu Jen and associated feats. The 20th level one is from that Paladin ACF from Dungeonscape that summons spirits, right?

Idiosyncratic Shaper is... idiosyncratic, I guess? Swap one mental ability score for another (both ways) for one of your Spellshaping class's spellshaping and features. It costs a prepared formula, but that seems fair since everyone gets plenty and you'd only be taking it if you wanted to sync up some ability score-based abilities advantageously. How does the lost prepared formula interact with the Impulse Mage's occurred formulae? Make sure it's spelled out, and consider if you want interactions like this to give you an Idiot Crusader situation.

Invoking Sage gives 8 invocations at the cost of 9 spells (each usable 1/day). Depending on what you choose, that could be a much more reliable and reusable bit of versatility over just having basic spellshaping, but whether the reusability of invocations trumps the variety of spells is another question that I don't know the answer to.

I cringe at Mage-Warrior's Steed making you strictly worse for 1 level (4th) instead of giving the mount directly then. Maybe give the mount at 4th level but say you count as at least 5th level to determine its effects (since the Paladin Mount table doesn't go below 5th)?

Prescient Mage seems fine.

Shaman of the Elements is another one of those rock now, don't pay until later deals. Save the auras until 4th when you actually give up Command Elements. It's bad enough you're giving an 18th level class feature away with it (shift aura as swift action). Not that I think restricting aura switches to being very slow is a good thing (I like the Marshal-style switch-as-swift), but if it's good enough for 18th level on one class, no reason to give it away at 1st on another. Similarly, Touch of Vitality should probably wait until 8th level and the condition removal to 12th. Maybe at 16th you can give something to make up for Wrath of Elements, like the ability for your elemental companion to spread a sort of inverted Spellshape Aura in place of or in addition to its elemental aura.

Spellshape Paragon looks like a sort of Divine Crusader/Paladin ACF for Spellshape Champions. The 10th level ability can be rewritten in a more general manner, so you don't need to keep updating it as you add new circles and so players don't need to look up exactly which circle they have to see the benefit.
(click to show/hide)
You might want to remove or tweak the Cha to saves at 2nd level and some of the other low-level abilities. It makes the class possibly too great a dip for up to 3 levels. You get Cha to saves, Mettle, Iron Guard's Glare w/o a stance, immunity to fear, immunity to disease, two auras (+4 saves vs. fear and +1 to something of your choice from a Spellshape aura), and if you want to do any more spellshaping you also have Spellshape Channeling (which can just be a minor bonus on a single melee attack per round or channeling some big major formula from another class).

Temporal Impulses seems fair at 8th level. You trade one defense (3/day say nyeh to melee attacks, plus other teleport utility) for another (3/day reroll a save, plus the option to reroll attacks). The ability to replay a whole turn at 18th level is probably a fair bit stronger than DDoor, but it's level 18 so things can be a bit wacky.

Ain't touching feats until tomorrow.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 02:00:00 PM by Garryl »

Offline brujon

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2554
  • Insufferable Fool
    • View Profile
    • My Blog (in PT-BR)
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2011, 11:57:59 AM »
You sir, deserve a place among the greats of the homebrew. This is marvelous work! Effectively putting casters on the same playfield as the ToB classes, while maintaining flavor. Splendous.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline DonQuixote

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2011, 03:40:00 PM »
I think your Aging table is incorrect. It looks like a copy/paste of the starting age table.

How is an aging table capable of being incorrect, exactly?  I based it off of the aging rates of other races, yes, but that's mainly because I didn't want to just pull numbers of of thin air.

Edit: Oh, I see what you mean.  Fixed.

Water Stoichen seem a little bit off compared to the other options. Their normal ability is water breathing and swimming (useful, but very specific and fine for a racial), but their SLA is a cantrip. Poison immunity is nice, though. It would also be nice if their 5th level Elemental Adept 1 sub ability could give something associated with the water/cold spellshapes similar to the other elements. It just feels like the odd man out in that regard.

Yeah, the SLA kind of sucks for water stoichen.  I'll probably replace it with animate water or something similar.  Update: Animate water was, in fact, the exact spell-like ability I gave it!

In terms of the 5th level ability, I'm not sure what you're talking about.  Only earth-blooded stoichen elemental adepts have an ability that modifies their spellshapes.  The air elemental adept just gets a miss chance, and the burn damage increase on the fire elemental adept is specifically noted as applying when you're attacked--not when you attack.

Caymir Anchorite 1 and Stoichen Elemental Adept 1 seem like awfully big changes for a single level. I do like the idea of turning you into your pet elemental. Maybe you could expand the range of the elemental auras to your normal melee reach instead of adjacent only, though? Being that close can actually be pretty difficult when reaches rise.

The caymir anchorite is basically gaining trading access to one of the normal circles for a circle that was never written.  See, Codex II was originally going to have a shape-shifting circle, but there was almost no way that I could figure to make shapeshifting work in the context of formulae, recovery, and durations.  So I scrapped it.  The caymir anchorites are basically getting that.  It scales with shaper level, like actual circles, while being interesting utility-wise.

Stoichen elemental adept has had the elemental aura become an actual aura.  It has a 5-foot radius at 5th level, a 10-foot radius at 11th level, and a 15-foot radius at 17th level.

I don't deny that they're both rather big changes, but I don't think that they're actually a problem.

Anchorite looks like a Divine Mind with spellshaping instead of psionics and competence instead of suck. And Savant seems to have inherited the Archivist's non-spellcasting class features.

Both of these are entirely true, though I will point out that the savant gets uses of its knowledge that archivist doesn't.  It's basically the same ability, but tweaked slightly.

Battle Sage has the problem of getting something now (Int to AC and defensive shaping Conc checks) for nothing until later. Maybe move the AC and Concentration bonuses up to 3rd level (when you miss Int to Will), then add something else as a minor bonus at 9th and 15th to make up for the other two saves you're losing out on getting Int to (say, Int to spellshape damage rolls or attack rolls). Light armor proficiency, increased HD size, and armored shaping don't really matter unless you invest levels into the class to take advantage of them, so they can probably stay at 1st level without being a problem.

Has been addressed.  You now get the AC/Concentration bonus at 3rd level, Int to damage at 9th level, and Int x Shaper level to hit points at 15th level.  Basically, you slowly become more and more capable of waging war.

Elemental Spirit seems fair. You give up your elemental companion (a major part of the class) for a variety of helpful abilities that scale with and are appropriate to your level. Looks like a few of them were curbed from the Wu Jen and associated feats. The 20th level one is from that Paladin ACF from Dungeonscape that summons spirits, right?

E-yup.  I've been thinking that the 20th-level one might deserve a limit on times per day, though, since the paladin ACF's spirit only lasts for a certain amount of time.  Update: It has been capped at three life-saves per day.

Idiosyncratic Shaper is... idiosyncratic, I guess? Swap one mental ability score for another (both ways) for one of your Spellshaping class's spellshaping and features. It costs a prepared formula, but that seems fair since everyone gets plenty and you'd only be taking it if you wanted to sync up some ability score-based abilities advantageously. How does the lost prepared formula interact with the Impulse Mage's occurred formulae? Make sure it's spelled out, and consider if you want interactions like this to give you an Idiot Crusader situation.

Yeah, I really should define the Impulse Mage's occurred formulae thing somewhere.  If you haven't noticed, it isn't just "all your formulae except for two" like the Crusader--it's half.  I did the math at one point, though, and it was incredibly difficult to pull off an Idiot Mage (though probably doable).  More pondering shall occur, but I'll definitely define Impulse Mage somewhere in the ACF.

Invoking Sage gives 8 invocations at the cost of 9 spells (each usable 1/day). Depending on what you choose, that could be a much more reliable and reusable bit of versatility over just having basic spellshaping, but whether the reusability of invocations trumps the variety of spells is another question that I don't know the answer to.

Invoking Sage has actually caused me to lose sleep.  I've thought about dropping it to only four invocations, but that trade feels too obviously weak.  Maybe the fact that we can't figure out which way is better bespeaks the fact that it's actually well-balanced and a complicated choice...but I don't know.  I'll keep thinking on this one--and any further thoughts would be most useful.

I cringe at Mage-Warrior's Steed making you strictly worse for 1 level (4th) instead of giving the mount directly then. Maybe give the mount at 4th level but say you count as at least 5th level to determine its effects (since the Paladin Mount table doesn't go below 5th)?

Probably what I will do, yes.  Update: This is done.

Shaman of the Elements is another one of those rock now, don't pay until later deals. Save the auras until 4th when you actually give up Command Elements. It's bad enough you're giving an 18th level class feature away with it (shift aura as swift action). Not that I think restricting aura switches to being very slow is a good thing (I like the Marshal-style switch-as-swift), but if it's good enough for 18th level on one class, no reason to give it away at 1st on another. Similarly, Touch of Vitality should probably wait until 8th level and the condition removal to 12th. Maybe at 16th you can give something to make up for Wrath of Elements, like the ability for your elemental companion to spread a sort of inverted Spellshape Aura in place of or in addition to its elemental aura.

This has been mostly addressed, though I haven't come up with a new 16th-level ability yet.  I have ideas for "elemental edicts" that penalize enemies in your spellshape auras.  I don't want to tie it to your elemental companion, though, in case you take one of the two options--elemental spirit or stoichen elemental adept--that takes it away.

Spellshape Paragon looks like a sort of Divine Crusader/Paladin ACF for Spellshape Champions. The 10th level ability can be rewritten in a more general manner, so you don't need to keep updating it as you add new circles and so players don't need to look up exactly which circle they have to see the benefit.
(click to show/hide)
You might want to remove or tweak the Cha to saves at 2nd level and some of the other low-level abilities. It makes the class possibly too great a dip for up to 3 levels. You get Cha to saves, Mettle, Iron Guard's Glare w/o a stance, immunity to fear, immunity to disease, two auras (+4 saves vs. fear and +1 to something of your choice from a Spellshape aura), and if you want to do any more spellshaping you also have Spellshape Channeling (which can just be a minor bonus on a single melee attack per round or channeling some big major formula from another class).

I'll probably drop the Charisma to saves, then.  And, yes, I'll be stealing that write-up of the immunities/defenses.  Update: This is done.

Temporal Impulses seems fair at 8th level. You trade one defense (3/day say nyeh to melee attacks, plus other teleport utility) for another (3/day reroll a save, plus the option to reroll attacks). The ability to replay a whole turn at 18th level is probably a fair bit stronger than DDoor, but it's level 18 so things can be a bit wacky.

That's basically where I came down on it.  Replaying your turn is nice, but--at this point--wizards have Time Stop and psions have their version of it.  Just replaying your own turn is far from game breaking.


Edit: Some feedback I got in a message has brought something to my attention.

Quote
There is one import observation - spellshaper champion with spellshape study becomes very potent and durable ranged attacker. Especially at level 5th he nearly doubles his damage output. I don't know if it's a flaw in your system, but want to bring it to your consideration.

It's a decent point.  Spellshape champions can take one feat and suddenly become just as capable of ranged combat as other spellshapers, while retaining all of their defenses.  In the light of Spellshape Paragon--which restricts you to one circle--the possibility of an armored cannon becomes even more of a thing.  Should spellshape champion's ability to make spellshape attacks at range by taking Spellshape Study be axed?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 01:56:43 AM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4503
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2011, 05:24:09 PM »
Spellshape Auras: How do these work from multiple sources? An Anchorite 1/Spellshape Paragon 1/Shaman of the Elements 4 has it from 3 different sources. Does that mean 3 auras at once?

Anchorite:
I missed this before, but the auras each have nice basic effects in addition to scaling bonuses.
Also, this should say somewhere that you can only project one aura at once before 10th.

Feats:
Not sure how I feel about Metashaping feats. Without Metashaping Mastery, you have a good chance of failure, lost actions, and nonlethal damage even on things with effective levels a few below your max level.

Chain Spellshape - Keep the 7th level+ penalty as dazing, not stunning. Stun immunity is easier to come by than daze immunity, like from Elemental Adept 10, for instance.
When shaping a chained melee spellshape (or channeled through a melee weapon), the ranged touch attacks for secondary targets might make you provoke an AoO. I'm not sure exactly, because I can never remember exactly what the rules on AoOs for ranged attacks are, nor how the usual wording for no provoking AoOs for SLAs that melee spellshapers use goes.
The example is incorrect. The DC only drops by 2, not 4 (secondary DC 15 not 13).

Enhanced Formula - Do you still have to make shaper level checks to use the metashaped formula? If so, this feat is strictly worse than just applying the metashaping feat manually.

Mastered Formula - Should recover it either:
a) 5 rounds after you last shaped it, or
b) after it has been expended for at least 5 rounds.
As written, if you shape it, recover it, and then shape it again, you'll recover it twice (once 5 rounds after the first shaping, and again after the 2nd one). If you start spamming it over and over, you can eventually be recovering it every single round. Probably not intended. The above suggestions will change it so you lose the pending recoveries if you recover the formula sooner (a, b), and if it is expended without being shaped (b).

Maximize Formula - Large amounts of bonus damage instead of large dice may make failing a 4th level metashape more dangerous than at 7th level one.

Metashaping Mastery - Since you take 10 like a skill check, you still can't take 10 in combat (or other stressful/distracting situations), the main time when you'd want to other than with Persistent Spellshape. Just needs to add the "even while threatened or distracted" clause.

Mobile Shaper - Shot on the Run for spellshapes? Precise Shaper is a wasted feat for characters who want this for use for melee spellshapes (using it as Spring Attack). Speaking of which, you might want to let Mobile Shaper count as Shot on the Run, Mobile Caster, and/or Spring Attack for prerequisites and other options. Just a thought.

Persistent Formula - 10 minute duration is well enough for something with encounter-period recovery. Might be a bit tedious keeping it up all day, though. Maybe make it 24 hours, but dismissible if you need to get the formula back or change which formula you persisted? Or is this part of the balancing to prevent someone from persisting formulae they can't always succeed on the shaper level check for?
Just a thought, how about letting a shaper take the feat multiple times, each time letting you persist another formula at the same time?

Sculpt Spellshape - How does this interact with a Spellshape Champion's channeled spellshape? Forget Spellshape Study for a ranged shape, I'm taking this 1st degree metashape to make my melee attacks AoEs.

Shaper's Stride - This is bloody cool.

Spellshape Aura - How does this interact with already being able to project a Spellshape Aura? Similar to Anchorite and Shaman of the Elements, shouldn't this be a full-round action to project?

Still Spellshape - How would this work with a channeled spellshape? I hit you with my sword without moving.

I think your Aging table is incorrect. It looks like a copy/paste of the starting age table.

How is an aging table capable of being incorrect, exactly?  I based it off of the aging rates of other races, yes, but that's mainly because I didn't want to just pull numbers of of thin air.
For most aging tables, the age for each category is fixed, with only the maximum life span being variable.
Since the numbers on starting age and age categories are copied, funky things happen. Adulthood (the time between the start of adulthood and the start of middle age) is 0 years. Anyone playing a character with a late starting age (Wizard, etc.) has a decent chance to be beyond their maximum age, dying years before character creation.
The longest lived Caymir (Adulthood 18 yrs, similar to humans) has a maximum age of 18+6+12+18 = 54, which seems a bit short, no? Masked Ones are 15+4+6+12=37, Stoichen are 20+12+18+24=74. I think only Azurin have similarly short lifespans compared to starting age, and that's part of their racial fluff (born with essentia but the incarnum energy eats their bodies up, burning through their lifespan quickly).


Edit: A couple typos I noticed.

Stoichen
Automatic Languages: Stoichen speak Comman and the elemental language appropriate to their ancestry (Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran).  Bonus Languages: Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Ignan, and Terran.

Eternal Moment
Senescence -  and a a cumulative –2 penalty to Dexterity and Constitution.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 05:26:17 PM by Garryl »

Offline DonQuixote

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2011, 02:19:30 AM »
Feats:
Not sure how I feel about Metashaping feats. Without Metashaping Mastery, you have a good chance of failure, lost actions, and nonlethal damage even on things with effective levels a few below your max level.

So, I'm going to address the other issues you brought up at some point in the near future, but I wanted to actually ask about this one.  What do you think would be an appropriate setup for failure?  Should it just be that you shape the formula normally and can apply no more metashaping feats to it, or something?

The problem is that I'm trying to avoid the truenaming problem, where there's no reason NOT to try improving all of your utterances, as failure simply causes them to work normally.

The simplest way would be to simply let you apply metashaping feats as easily as one applies metamagic (only without the casting time increase), while requiring that formula level + degree does not exceed 1/2 your shaper level (rounded up).  Metashaping Mastery would, of course, then be removed.  Thoughts?


(Oh, and typos were corrected.)
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline carnap

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2011, 03:06:56 AM »
Invoking Sage gives 8 invocations at the cost of 9 spells (each usable 1/day). Depending on what you choose, that could be a much more reliable and reusable bit of versatility over just having basic spellshaping, but whether the reusability of invocations trumps the variety of spells is another question that I don't know the answer to.

Invoking Sage has actually caused me to lose sleep.  I've thought about dropping it to only four invocations, but that trade feels too obviously weak.  Maybe the fact that we can't figure out which way is better bespeaks the fact that it's actually well-balanced and a complicated choice...but I don't know.  I'll keep thinking on this one--and any further thoughts would be most useful.

Because spellshapers have such nice firepower, they wouldn't benefit much from offensive invocations which are generally weaker than formulas. But invocations provides things that spells generally can't - very good, long-lasting buffs (as alter self, see invisibility, blindsense, flight, invisibility). I feel that offensive spellsages would prefer spells and more utility-oriented spellsages will choose invocations. It means that you can't really compare this two variants, because their areas of specialization are definitively different.

One more thought - isn't Savant better than Impulse Mage? Actually, Savant got more class features (which also affect his team), bonus feats, only a bit worse hit dice and more skill points (due to Intelligence focus), the same number of formulas and much more predictable recovery mechanic. Shouldn't you boost a bit impulse mage?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 03:23:49 AM by carnap »

Offline DonQuixote

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2011, 12:35:41 AM »
Spellshape Auras: How do these work from multiple sources? An Anchorite 1/Spellshape Paragon 1/Shaman of the Elements 4 has it from 3 different sources. Does that mean 3 auras at once?

Anchorite:
I missed this before, but the auras each have nice basic effects in addition to scaling bonuses.
Also, this should say somewhere that you can only project one aura at once before 10th.

To be dealt with shortly.  Update: Dealt with.  Unless you specifically gain the ability to project multiple auras at once, only one at a time.


Feats:
Not sure how I feel about Metashaping feats. Without Metashaping Mastery, you have a good chance of failure, lost actions, and nonlethal damage even on things with effective levels a few below your max level.

Chain Spellshape - Keep the 7th level+ penalty as dazing, not stunning. Stun immunity is easier to come by than daze immunity, like from Elemental Adept 10, for instance.
When shaping a chained melee spellshape (or channeled through a melee weapon), the ranged touch attacks for secondary targets might make you provoke an AoO. I'm not sure exactly, because I can never remember exactly what the rules on AoOs for ranged attacks are, nor how the usual wording for no provoking AoOs for SLAs that melee spellshapers use goes.
The example is incorrect. The DC only drops by 2, not 4 (secondary DC 15 not 13).

Enhanced Formula - Do you still have to make shaper level checks to use the metashaped formula? If so, this feat is strictly worse than just applying the metashaping feat manually.

Mastered Formula - Should recover it either:
a) 5 rounds after you last shaped it, or
b) after it has been expended for at least 5 rounds.
As written, if you shape it, recover it, and then shape it again, you'll recover it twice (once 5 rounds after the first shaping, and again after the 2nd one). If you start spamming it over and over, you can eventually be recovering it every single round. Probably not intended. The above suggestions will change it so you lose the pending recoveries if you recover the formula sooner (a, b), and if it is expended without being shaped (b).

Maximize Formula - Large amounts of bonus damage instead of large dice may make failing a 4th level metashape more dangerous than at 7th level one.

Metashaping Mastery - Since you take 10 like a skill check, you still can't take 10 in combat (or other stressful/distracting situations), the main time when you'd want to other than with Persistent Spellshape. Just needs to add the "even while threatened or distracted" clause.

Mobile Shaper - Shot on the Run for spellshapes? Precise Shaper is a wasted feat for characters who want this for use for melee spellshapes (using it as Spring Attack). Speaking of which, you might want to let Mobile Shaper count as Shot on the Run, Mobile Caster, and/or Spring Attack for prerequisites and other options. Just a thought.

Persistent Formula - 10 minute duration is well enough for something with encounter-period recovery. Might be a bit tedious keeping it up all day, though. Maybe make it 24 hours, but dismissible if you need to get the formula back or change which formula you persisted? Or is this part of the balancing to prevent someone from persisting formulae they can't always succeed on the shaper level check for?
Just a thought, how about letting a shaper take the feat multiple times, each time letting you persist another formula at the same time?

Sculpt Spellshape - How does this interact with a Spellshape Champion's channeled spellshape? Forget Spellshape Study for a ranged shape, I'm taking this 1st degree metashape to make my melee attacks AoEs.

Shaper's Stride - This is bloody cool.

Spellshape Aura - How does this interact with already being able to project a Spellshape Aura? Similar to Anchorite and Shaman of the Elements, shouldn't this be a full-round action to project?

Still Spellshape - How would this work with a channeled spellshape? I hit you with my sword without moving.

I think your Aging table is incorrect. It looks like a copy/paste of the starting age table.

How is an aging table capable of being incorrect, exactly?  I based it off of the aging rates of other races, yes, but that's mainly because I didn't want to just pull numbers of of thin air.
For most aging tables, the age for each category is fixed, with only the maximum life span being variable.
Since the numbers on starting age and age categories are copied, funky things happen. Adulthood (the time between the start of adulthood and the start of middle age) is 0 years. Anyone playing a character with a late starting age (Wizard, etc.) has a decent chance to be beyond their maximum age, dying years before character creation.
The longest lived Caymir (Adulthood 18 yrs, similar to humans) has a maximum age of 18+6+12+18 = 54, which seems a bit short, no? Masked Ones are 15+4+6+12=37, Stoichen are 20+12+18+24=74. I think only Azurin have similarly short lifespans compared to starting age, and that's part of their racial fluff (born with essentia but the incarnum energy eats their bodies up, burning through their lifespan quickly).


Edit: A couple typos I noticed.

Stoichen
Automatic Languages: Stoichen speak Comman and the elemental language appropriate to their ancestry (Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran).  Bonus Languages: Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Ignan, and Terran.

Eternal Moment
Senescence -  and a a cumulative –2 penalty to Dexterity and Constitution.

All of this has been dealt with.  I changed metashaping feats to require no action, but formula level + degree of all metashaping feats cannot exceed 1/2 your shaper level (rounded up).

Things like Sculpt Spellshape and Still Spellshape now require that you would be making the spellshape attack as a ranged attack.

Persistent Shaper uses your ideas.

Mobile Shaper is changed to qualify you for things.  And while, yes, it's a wasted feat for melee shapers...I'll like to point out that Spring Attack normally requires both Dodge and Mobility, as opposed to just one feat.

Edit: Also, prestige classes up.  Planning to get another one or two up tomorrow.


Edit:
One more thought - isn't Savant better than Impulse Mage? Actually, Savant got more class features (which also affect his team), bonus feats, only a bit worse hit dice and more skill points (due to Intelligence focus), the same number of formulas and much more predictable recovery mechanic. Shouldn't you boost a bit impulse mage?

I'm actually more likely to try to figure out how to weaken the Savant, to be honest.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 12:35:26 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline carnap

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2011, 03:06:19 PM »
I'm actually more likely to try to figure out how to weaken the Savant, to be honest.

I think that bad fortitude progression (it's very useful save) and cutting bonus feat at 1st level would make the Savant more on par with the Impulse Mage.

New PrCs are great (especially gishy Spellforge Warsmith), but is there any chance to see more of "meshing two circles" classes, as Lavamancer or Hand of Death's Chill?

Offline DonQuixote

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2011, 03:43:26 PM »

I think that bad fortitude progression (it's very useful save) and cutting bonus feat at 1st level would make the Savant more on par with the Impulse Mage.

Bad Fortitude will probably happen, yeah.  In terms of dropping other stuff, I'm thinking of giving Lore Mastery the axe, instead--thereby simultaneously dropping a small bonus and slightly weakening everything that depends on knowledge.  Update: This has been done.  I THINK that puts me up to date with feedback and comments, except that Shaman of the Elements needs a 16th-level ability.  Update: Shaman of the Elements now gains the ability to project both of its elemental auras at once at 16th level.

New PrCs are great (especially gishy Spellforge Warsmith), but is there any chance to see more of "meshing two circles" classes, as Lavamancer or Hand of Death's Chill?

Circle-specific prestige classes really dominated the scene in Codex I, so I made an effort to have most of the new prestige classes allow generalist builds.  Dreamwalker requires one Glimmering Moon formula, but that's not terribly specializing.  However, the Oracle of the Stars--which will be posted as soon as I finish its write-up--combines Astral Essence, Brilliant Dawn, and Glimmering Moon in the way that Codex I prestige classes combined circles.  It's astrology-themed.

Beyond that, none of the Codex II prestige classes really "mesh" circles.  However, I'm not planning to up and die any time soon, so meshing prestige classes could always be wrtten in the future.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 09:01:40 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2011, 03:52:01 PM »
I haven't looked over the PrC's in detail, so if there already is then shame on me, but I was wondering if there are any plans for a PrC mixing spellshaping and ToB initiators?  Because that could be quite awesome.

I'm going to try and play a spellshaper soon, probably an Impulse Mage going into either Chaos Shaper or Dreamwalker.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline DonQuixote

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2011, 04:33:31 PM »
I haven't looked over the PrC's in detail, so if there already is then shame on me, but I was wondering if there are any plans for a PrC mixing spellshaping and ToB initiators?  Because that could be quite awesome.

I'm going to try and play a spellshaper soon, probably an Impulse Mage going into either Chaos Shaper or Dreamwalker.

There are currently two such prestige classes--the Edgewalker Knight and the Flamedancer.  The first, a servant of life and death who maintains the boundary between them.  The second, a flashy wielder of flame who dances around his foes as he sears them.

Codex II does not, alas, contribute to the list of spellshapers/initiators, but that sort of combination is something that I'm pretty likely to continue in the future.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2011, 06:07:02 PM »
Weird idea; a PrC that would allow you to ready Maneuvers as Formulae and Formulae as Maneuvers, with benefits for doing so.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline DonQuixote

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2011, 11:22:36 PM »
Hrm.  Interesting idea.  I've been rolling an idea around in the back of my head of a base class that gets both formulae and maneuvers, but prepares/readies them in the same "pool."  That is, he can choose to have more formulae or more maneuvers, since they both fill up the same slots.  Is that something like what you're getting at?

Also, two more prestige classes up.  Master Reshaper and Oracle of the Stars.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2011, 11:54:01 PM »
Precisely, actually.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline DonQuixote

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2011, 04:33:37 AM »
Well, that one should be hitting shelves a few weeks after I finish getting Codex II online and have fielded the worst of the criticism.

New prestige class up, incidentally.  Not terribly flashy, but offers some versatility.  Whoo, stealing the eternal blade's eternal training ability and removing the "once per encounter" cap!

Edit: Wildheart mage is up now, too.  With that, all of the Codex II material is online.  Now, criticize away!  I am on hand for Quickened Errata.

Also, the indices for both codices are now in the same thread, for the purpose of efficiency.  If this is horribly appalling, say so and I shall return to the two-thread setup.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 09:18:35 AM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion thread.
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2011, 10:58:36 AM »
You inspire me with your work, you know that?

I've been meaning to work on a similar project... But don't know how to start. Suggestions?
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."