Author Topic: StP Erudite, Psionics are (Ps), (Ps) are (Sp), and spellcasting prestige classes  (Read 7465 times)

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
So, I asked this question over on Stack Exchange, and I'm curious as to what the active minds over here think about this.

The basic idea is questioning whether or not due to the fact that:
  • Psionics are called out as Psi-like abilities,
  • and that Psi-like abilities are in turn called out as Spell-like abilities,
  • Spell-like abilities have (or if not called out can be assigned) a caster level,
  • and in Complete Arcane it mentions that spell-likes that produce specific effects meet the requirement of specific spell knowledge,
  • plus an Erudite has a spell-to-power alternate class feature,
...can an Erudite qualify for certain prestige classes that are spell casting based - especially one where it says one can use either spells or spell-likes to qualify (using the language of Spells or Spell-like Abilities: X caster level Y; where x is arcane or divine and y is the numeric level)? The spell knowledge thing seems to be a done deal, however "caster level x" and "ability to cast spells of x level" language might still be in the air, especially the former.

I was thinking that since spell-likes have caster levels that can be assigned or calculated, perhaps a psi-likes manifester level would be considered a caster level due to the spell-like <==> psi-like thing?

I'm eyeballing the Sandshaper prestige from Sandstorm, if that matters for the calculations; though I'd be interested in what all could be qualified for via this potential trick, if it actually works?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 12:07:26 PM by nijineko »

Offline snakeman830

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1091
  • BG's resident furry min/maxer
    • View Profile
"Ability to cast spells of X level" is a definite no.  Eurudite turns them all into spell-like abilities, which explicitly don't work for that.

"Caster level X," they probably also don't work for.  Psionic Powers (which are not treated as psi-likes, FYI), even if they are treated as spell-like abilities, do have a Manifester level rather than a caster level.

"Ability to cast spell X" you have a better argument for.
"When life gives you lemons, fire them back at high velocity."

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
"Caster level X," they probably also don't work for.  Psionic Powers (which are not treated as psi-likes, FYI), even if they are treated as spell-like abilities, do have a Manifester level rather than a caster level.

Well, all spell-like abilities are assigned a caster level. If I recall correctly, it is the lowest level that the spell could be cast at. Ergo, a spell-power, even though it is a power is also a psi-like ability, ergo spell-like ability that duplicates the effect of a spell, which means it has an effective caster level.

If that logic is solid and I didn't miss anything, then psionics itself has an effective caster level in theory - which probably doesn't do anything as the (PS) of psionics doesn't seem to actually give you anything other than the ability to manifest powers. In any case, a spell power should also get an effective caster level, no?

Offline snakeman830

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1091
  • BG's resident furry min/maxer
    • View Profile
Okay, Powers are not psi-like abilities.  This is not usually an important distinction, but this is very much the case.

They are considered spell-like abilities.

While most spell-like abilities are given a caster level, psionic powers already have a manifester level instead.  This may be enough for prerequisites (I know virtually everyone houserules the Orange ioun stone to give +1 to manifester level when used by a psionic character), but it really depends on the DM.
"When life gives you lemons, fire them back at high velocity."

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
Okay, Powers are not psi-like abilities.  This is not usually an important distinction, but this is very much the case.

They are considered spell-like abilities.

While most spell-like abilities are given a caster level, psionic powers already have a manifester level instead.  This may be enough for prerequisites (I know virtually everyone houserules the Orange ioun stone to give +1 to manifester level when used by a psionic character), but it really depends on the DM.

I'm not clear on your distinction.

Psionics are Psi-like abilities. (expanded psionics handbook and SRD)

Psi-like abilities are equivalent to spell-like abilities.

Is there any reason or rule that would prevent a spell-like ability from being assigned a caster level? even if it has a manifester level?

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3346
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
I'm not clear on your distinction.

Psionics are Psi-like abilities. (expanded psionics handbook and SRD)

Psi-like abilities are equivalent to spell-like abilities.

I can't find a citation for these assertions.  Do you have one?

Assuming you're correct, I'd say that a StP Erudite could qualify for and benefit from any prestige class that a Warlock could.  An Erudite would have a Caster Level, but not the ability to cast spells (he manifests powers instead).  See pages 18 and 71-72 of Complete Arcane for exactly what that means. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
I'm not clear on your distinction.
It's simple. PLAs auto-Augment and ignore XP Costs among other things but normal Manifesting is supposed to pay for it. Saying Manifesting is considered a PLA, rather than every Power Manifested is a PLA, is a way link some of the shared rules without actually saying they are going to be treated or handled the same in every regard.

Similarly PLAs are not the same as SLAs and the text never makes such a claim. What is actually says is Spells, Spell-Like abilities, and Magic Items that could potentially affect Psionics do affect Psionics. In other words, Dispel Magic can affect a Psionic Power, not Dispel Power is a Spell and can be used to enter Spellcasting Prestigious Classes.

Finally, and I'm going to trim the entry here and it sucks Snakeman is here, but.
Quote
Benefit: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. Each spell costs a certain number of power points to manifest. Because the spells are now effectively psionic powers, they are no longer affected by metamagic feats. However, metapsionic feats can affect them as they would a psionic power. As with casting a spell, manifesting a spell may require certain components.
StP Erudites convert Spells into effectively-a-Power which are exempt from Spell-related rules and they very clearly Manifest, not Cast, them. They never gain the ability to cast a spell. Sure they can produce the end result of getting a Black Tentacles on the field, but that's not what Requirements check for.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
And it was worse in 3.0e, with the sidestep into (su) instead of (ps)/(sp).
I'm sure there are some subtleties to be had with a hardcore hash-out.
< my kitty avatar lost it's stomach for all that a long time ago >


Magic Mantle of course could  do at least some of this.
I recently stumbled on this nugget at giantitp, except for
a few specifics, it'd be a tighter definition of magic prcs for psi.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18865340&postcount=2
I'm sure CapQ has a few more in his EVD. 
Nother giantitp guy Troacctid found a few more too, just 2 posts below that one.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
Quote from: Expanded Psionics Handbook, p65
Psi-Like Abilities (Ps): The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures).

Quote from: Tangential, but still interesting, same page
Psionic feats are also supernatural abilities.

I think the origin of the concept that manifester level can equate to caster level comes from this paragraph (emphasis added):

Quote from:  Expanded Psionics Handbook, p 184-5
Psionic Spells
In some cases, a creature’s psi-like abilities (or abilities listed under a creature’s psionics entry in the Monster Manual or some other book) may include an effect that does not duplicate any power in this book. For example, duergar have the ability to use invisibility once per day as a psi-like ability, even though invisibility is not described as a psionic power in this book. For such abilities, simply use the existing spell description from the Player’s Handbook. Treat the creature’s manifester level as the caster level for the spell. The ability is still psionic in origin, so spells and powers that specifically affect psionic powers can negate or reduce its effects as they would any other psionic power.

It's even titled "Psionic Spells". ^^
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 07:46:00 PM by nijineko »

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Quote from:  Expanded Psionics Handbook, p 184-5
Creatures with “Psionics” Entries
Psionic monsters in the Monster Manual and other sources often possess spell-like abilities that are identified as “psionics,” instead of “spell-like abilities.” For all intents and purposes, creatures with spell-like abilities described as psionics are considered to possess psi-like abilities, and they manifest their powers as described above.

Psionic Spells
In some cases, a creature’s psi-like abilities (or abilities listed under a creature’s psionics entry in the Monster Manual or some other book) may include an effect that does not duplicate any power in this book. For example, duergar have the ability to use invisibility once per day as a psi-like ability, even though invisibility is not described as a psionic power in this book. For such abilities, simply use the existing spell description from the Player’s Handbook. Treat the creature’s manifester level as the caster level for the spell. The ability is still psionic in origin, so spells and powers that specifically affect psionic powers can negate or reduce its effects as they would any other psionic power.
It's even titled "Psionic Spells". ^^
Well yeah, given that it's discussing how non-Psionic splat that tossed around the word Psionic instead of Spell even through no actual way to convert them to the Psionic system exists.

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
While unintended, perhaps, it still seems like it might apply in this particular case.

It would be nice if there was some rules path that would apply towards allowing an Erudite to qualify for certain spell-based prestige classes, for guidance if nothing else, but it's not strictly required.

After all, even if I manage to qualify an Erudite for Sandshaper, he'd still have to make all the skill checks to convert the spells known gained thereby into spellpowers, given that there is no actual spellcasting ability.

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3346
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
Quote from: Expanded Psionics Handbook, p65
Psi-Like Abilities (Ps): The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures).

"The manifestation of powers" is a psi-like ability.  That's different from the original assertion of "psionics are considered psi-like abilities".  The passage then goes on to say how psi-like abilities differ from characters manifesting powers normally - free augmentation, no XP cost, etc. 

As a thought exercise, consider how it would read if it were talking about traditional magic instead of psionics:  "The casting of spells by a spellcaster is considered a spell-like ability." 
Thinking about it like that should make the distinction more clear.  And incidentally would clear up a lot of confusion about what can or can't be done inside an antimagic field, if such a rule existed. 


Also, I still can't find a citation for the assertion that psi-likes are also spell-likes, despite having heard that talked about around here before.  Maybe the idea stems from that "Creatures with 'Psionics' Entries" quote you just posted?  But that seems to go in the opposite direction - Some Y are X, rather than All X are Y. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
Quote from: COMBINING PSIONIC AND MAGICAL EFFECTS, p55
The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics–magic transparency.

I wonder if this part has been generalized over the years to an assumed meaning of also giving caster level and manifester level transparency?

I have also noticed that a number of powers, as well as sections of the Psionic Items rules mention using caster level to resist or overcome if the effect is applied to a non-manifester, and using manifester level and powers in replacement of caster level and spells. Perhaps that has also contributed to the impression of transparency.

For example:
Quote from: Expanded Psionics Handbook, p164
The rules for manifester level for weapons (called caster level in the Dungeon Master’s Guide)...
...which would imply that CL and ML were intended to be not only considered the same thing, but interchangeable.


Furthermore, regardless of whether the concept can be applied generally or not, the caster level idea should be legit for a StP Erudite, because they are casting a psionic spell, or spellpower. The effect of this psionic ability doesn't appear in the EPH, but does appear in the PH under the spells section as specifically called out, and so should be treated as having a caster level as per the Psionic Spells section. Which should technically qualify the StP Erudite for a prestige class that requires Arcane Caster Level X.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 06:18:05 PM by nijineko »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
hmm , now I'm thinking of the various Polymorph rules/rulings over the years.


< where's the old popcorn smiley when you need it >
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
Obviously, even if the StP Erudite does somehow manage to qualify for a spellcasting prestige, any "advances spellcasting +1" type abilities would be useless, as the Erudite doesn't actually posess any spellcasting, so one's mileage may vary.

does this work?

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
For example:
Quote from: Expanded Psionics Handbook, p164
WEAPONS
Although they generally follow the rules for magic weapons, psionic weapons differ from mundane and magic weapons in their design. Most possess some crystal components, and some are composed entirely of crystal. Many also sport intricate traceries along the blade or haft, which flicker now and then as if channeling flows of psychic energy.

Psionic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses on both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. This enhancement bonus is effective for the purpose of overcoming creatures with damage resistance that is penetrated by magic. All psionic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons (for example, daggers) can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonus applies to either type of attack. In addition to enhancement bonuses, psionic weapons can also have the special abilities detailed here. A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

The rules for manifester level for weapons (called caster level in the Dungeon Master’s Guide), additional damage dice, ranged weapons and ammunition, ammunition and breakage, hardness and hit points, critical hits, and weapons for unusually sized creatures for psionic weapons are the same as for magic weapons as described on page 221 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Psionic weapons do not have the chance to generate light (though some may be mentally audible; see below).
...which would imply that CL and ML were intended to be not only considered the same thing, but interchangeable.
Actually it would seem the rules for psionic weapons follow most of the rules for magic weapons and if you wanted to read up on those weapon-related rules you need to check the DMG. Except the DMG doesn't state you need an ML three times higher than the enhancement bonus since it talks about CLs, for what I feel is fairly obvious reasons, so they included a point that the rules for manifester level for psionic weapons is the same as the rules for caster level for magic weapons. And we're talking about Items, for the purposes of meeting item prerequisites there is a great deal of cross over to begin with.

Are we going talk about Cerebremancer's requirements which separately lists Spells & Psionics as two different abilities now or while you were digging for that obscure crossover did you miss it?

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
No, I caught it. I'm just not really vested in proving this idea. It would be cool if it did turn out the way that would be convenient for me to not have to homebrew anything, but I'm not really concerned with the final outcome. There are only so many references to caster level in the EPH and CP after all. I didn't check the other psionics sources yet, and I'm not really feeling motivated enough to finish checking what's left.

I appreciate everyone's analysis, and it looks like it just isn't going to happen without some minor tweaks to the rules.

Thank you, everyone. I'm still open to more comments on either side, if anyone cares too. (better finish up that popcorn!)

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
It would be cool if it did turn out the way that would be convenient for me to not have to homebrew anything,
Eh, you have the StP Erudite, Mental Pinnacle, and stuff like the Mind Mage to play with and since Psionics is pretty much a port off Magic it's really easy to handwave a Psionic Adaption of a Caster-PrC on the tabletop without actually having to write anything down. But if you are going to write homebrew, I suggest looking at Dragon 313's Psi-Spells and expanding on them which sounds a lot better than a StP Erudite Shadowcraft Mage.

Offline nijineko

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 2408
  • two strange quarks short of a graviton....
    • View Profile
    • TwinSeraphim
It would be cool if it did turn out the way that would be convenient for me to not have to homebrew anything,
Eh, you have the StP Erudite, Mental Pinnacle, and stuff like the Mind Mage to play with and since Psionics is pretty much a port off Magic it's really easy to handwave a Psionic Adaption of a Caster-PrC on the tabletop without actually having to write anything down. But if you are going to write homebrew, I suggest looking at Dragon 313's Psi-Spells and expanding on them which sounds a lot better than a StP Erudite Shadowcraft Mage.

Interesting suggestion, thanks! I'll take a look.

This question was prompted by one of my last few remaining magic-based characters (a sorcerer, as I detest the vancian system and the sorcerer class barely makes it playable for me - beholder mage would be ideal, but then you dealing with the racial card), and my burning desire to convert him over to a psionic-based build. The Sandshaper prestige is more or less set in stone, however. ^^ I was just looking for a minimum rules-breaking/creating method for the conversion.

I'm looking forward to finishing converting all my characters away from the horrid magic system and over to psionics.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 09:11:52 PM by nijineko »

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
(a sorcerer, as I detest the vancian system and the sorcerer class barely makes it playable for me)
Spell Points?
(through I'd increase the sorcerer's points up to a psion's)