Author Topic: Iconic Examples?  (Read 15317 times)

Offline Prime32

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2011, 07:57:03 PM »
Maybe this should be an entire subforum, with threads dedicated to each class or technique and then people can contribute builds to the Iconic Build Compendium.
A subforum of handbooks? Heck, maybe a general Builds forum where all builds must follow a certain format.

As for lv1 vs lv3, if this is for new players then seeing a start-off build could help them understand character creation better. After all, lv1 does a lot of things differently from other levels. If you had an lv3 human as an example, for instance, then a newbie might assume that all PCs get one feat per level. If you can't really achieve your theme at lv1 then note that.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 08:53:34 PM by Prime32 »

Offline veekie

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2011, 03:36:00 AM »
Level 1 has a purpose in that regard, especially how do you get along(as best as you can) until your main trick comes online.
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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2011, 09:13:32 AM »
Maybe this should be an entire subforum, with threads dedicated to each class or technique and then people can contribute builds to the Iconic Build Compendium.
A subforum of handbooks? Heck, maybe a general Builds forum where all builds must follow a certain format.

As for lv1 vs lv3, if this is for new players then seeing a start-off build could help them understand character creation better. After all, lv1 does a lot of things differently from other levels. If you had an lv3 human as an example, for instance, then a newbie might assume that all PCs get one feat per level. If you can't really achieve your theme at lv1 then note that.

The problem with this is that this is for people that are new to the game.

So you're new to the game, and you're interested in optimizing, so you look around. And here are these level 1 builds being presented as valid options. So you pick one. And then you randomly die, because that's how level 1 is. You won't have the expertise and experience to realize that's just the nature of level 1. You're going to come out of this thinking that those CO guys suck. Not the best first experience.

If you don't present a level 1 build, and do make it clear that level 1 and 2 doesn't work then those bad habits will not develop, because they will realize these things in advance and can hopefully get a better first gaming experience (as having their character randomly drop dead might turn them off D&D entirely, not just optimizing).

Offline Prime32

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2011, 09:23:08 AM »
Maybe this should be an entire subforum, with threads dedicated to each class or technique and then people can contribute builds to the Iconic Build Compendium.
A subforum of handbooks? Heck, maybe a general Builds forum where all builds must follow a certain format.

As for lv1 vs lv3, if this is for new players then seeing a start-off build could help them understand character creation better. After all, lv1 does a lot of things differently from other levels. If you had an lv3 human as an example, for instance, then a newbie might assume that all PCs get one feat per level. If you can't really achieve your theme at lv1 then note that.

The problem with this is that this is for people that are new to the game.

So you're new to the game, and you're interested in optimizing, so you look around. And here are these level 1 builds being presented as valid options. So you pick one. And then you randomly die, because that's how level 1 is. You won't have the expertise and experience to realize that's just the nature of level 1. You're going to come out of this thinking that those CO guys suck. Not the best first experience.

If you don't present a level 1 build, and do make it clear that level 1 and 2 doesn't work then those bad habits will not develop, because they will realize these things in advance and can hopefully get a better first gaming experience (as having their character randomly drop dead might turn them off D&D entirely, not just optimizing).
Point. If the section included an index explaining what the different breakpoints are like it could help, but not everyone would read it...

EDIT: If there was a thread specifically for lv1 builds, it could include warnings in the thread itself.

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2011, 09:31:16 AM »
Well if they don't RTFM, that's their own fault. But it is imperative to keep in mind that the target audience here is people with no prior CO experience, so things need to be kept simple, and they absolutely must not be led astray.

I still say no level 1 at all, simply because the first 2 levels are irredeemably broken but if you do put a big bold warning in there that the game sucks until level 3, don't be surprised if you die anyways etc I suppose that's fine.

Speaking of levels, avoid the 20 level fetishism. The first 2 levels are irredeemably broken, sure. But a character that doesn't come online until 5, or 10, or even later is even worse. At that point you're missing out on parts of the game that do work, for parts you might not even get to as most games do not run to 20, and many don't even run very much past 12 or so.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2011, 09:41:16 AM »
Well if they don't RTFM, that's their own fault. But it is imperative to keep in mind that the target audience here is people with no prior CO experience, so things need to be kept simple, and they absolutely must not be led astray.

I still say no level 1 at all, simply because the first 2 levels are irredeemably broken but if you do put a big bold warning in there that the game sucks until level 3, don't be surprised if you die anyways etc I suppose that's fine.

Speaking of levels, avoid the 20 level fetishism. The first 2 levels are irredeemably broken, sure. But a character that doesn't come online until 5, or 10, or even later is even worse. At that point you're missing out on parts of the game that do work, for parts you might not even get to as most games do not run to 20, and many don't even run very much past 12 or so.

It's still worth it to have builds that come online at high level, for people joining high-level campaigns.  If you limit it to builds which are effective at low level, new players will miss out on a lot of awesome character builds.  But we should probably indicate strongly that those builds are not to be played when you're starting at low level (an experienced player could pull it off, but a new player probably couldn't).
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Offline veekie

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2011, 10:39:36 AM »
Yeah, these iconics would need very clearly marked breakpoints for when they start or stop working. Level 1 wise, I think thats pretty much down to the caster Enlarging his buddy and the barbarian with a polearm.
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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2011, 12:04:15 PM »
Well if they don't RTFM, that's their own fault. But it is imperative to keep in mind that the target audience here is people with no prior CO experience, so things need to be kept simple, and they absolutely must not be led astray.

I still say no level 1 at all, simply because the first 2 levels are irredeemably broken but if you do put a big bold warning in there that the game sucks until level 3, don't be surprised if you die anyways etc I suppose that's fine.

Speaking of levels, avoid the 20 level fetishism. The first 2 levels are irredeemably broken, sure. But a character that doesn't come online until 5, or 10, or even later is even worse. At that point you're missing out on parts of the game that do work, for parts you might not even get to as most games do not run to 20, and many don't even run very much past 12 or so.

It's still worth it to have builds that come online at high level, for people joining high-level campaigns.  If you limit it to builds which are effective at low level, new players will miss out on a lot of awesome character builds.  But we should probably indicate strongly that those builds are not to be played when you're starting at low level (an experienced player could pull it off, but a new player probably couldn't).

It's fine to have characters effective at high levels. It is not fine to have characters ONLY effective at high levels. I don't buy into characters that only survive until game start because all of that was narrated past regardless of whether the reason why that is so is because of a late bloomer build or because of a terrible one. Encouraging 20 level fetishism qualifies as encouraging bad habits, just the same as encouraging people to make basket weaver builds that wouldn't last a round in a campaign. Not to mention the whole chant and leech mentality has no place in D&D.

The flip side of builds that work at low and mid levels and stop working later is probably fine as long as they are very clearly labeled with a specific expiration date, but that is because many games do end earlier than high levels for one reason or another.

Most of the focus though should be on characters that can contribute over the full range of 18 levels.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2011, 12:25:42 PM »
So something like this posted in the section?

Level 1 - Save my dog
Level 1 characters are very fragile and combat is highly-dependent on chance. Even a highly-optimised character can die in one round if he rolls poorly. NPCs of this level can be killed by housecats.

Level 3 - Save the traders
Level 3 characters are experienced at what they do. Most people will reach lv3 over the course of their lifetime, even if it's in an NPC class.

Level 6 - Save the city
Level 6 characters are at the peak of human acheivement; if they existed in real life they'd be competing in the Olympics. This is regarded by many as the "sweet spot" for D&D - the E6 variant rules cap advancement here, while some DMs use it as a starting level. Beyond this point, most spellcasters will rapidly begin to overshadow non-spellcasters.

Level 11 - Save the country
Level 11 characters are the stuff of legend, doing things impossible by real-life standards.

Level 16 - Save the world
Level 16 characters travel between planes of existence as a matter of course.

Level 20 - Save the universe
Level 20 characters drink tea with gods.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 12:39:24 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2011, 12:43:21 PM »
So something like this posted in the section?

Level 1 - Save my dog
Level 1 characters are very fragile and combat is highly-dependent on chance. Even a highly-optimised character can die in one round if enemies launch successful attacks on him. NPCs of this level can be killed by housecats. PCs of this level can be killed by larger groups of housecats.

Level 3 - Save the traders
Level 3 characters are mildly experienced at what they do. Most people will reach lv3 over the course of their lifetime, even if it's in an NPC class. Characters of this level can go adventuring without randomly keeling over and dying.

Level 6 - Save the city
Level 6 characters are at the peak of human acheivement; if they existed in real life they'd be competing in the Olympics. This is regarded by many as the "sweet spot" for D&D - the E6 variant rules cap advancement here, while some DMs use it as a starting level. Beyond this point, most spellcasters will rapidly begin to overshadow non-spellcasters as the game dynamics begin changing heavily.

Level 11 - Save the country
Level 11 characters are the stuff of legend, doing things impossible by real-life standards. At this point the game dynamics change heavily again. Mundane stuff often ceases to matter at all as it just doesn't do anything significant anymore. Characters still stuck in low level dynamics will be screwed.

Level 16 - Save the world
Level 16 characters travel between planes as a matter of course. Suffice it to say the game dynamics change yet again, and at this point conflicts are a contest of counters not unlike that which takes place in tournament level competitive play.

Level 20 - Save the universe
Level 20 characters drink GODDAMNED TEA with gods. They hope to not find FREAKIN' GUARDIAN ACORNS!

Fixed.

Offline Prime32

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2011, 03:13:30 PM »
Level 20 characters drink GODDAMNED TEA with gods.
Unfortunate choice of words. "Nerull, can I have more tortured souls in my drink please?" :P

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2011, 03:24:49 PM »
Level 20 characters drink GODDAMNED TEA with gods.
Unfortunate choice of words. "Nerull, can I have more tortured souls in my drink please?" :P

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Offline veekie

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2011, 03:58:06 PM »
Level 20 characters drink GODDAMNED TEA with gods.
Unfortunate choice of words. "Nerull, can I have more tortured souls in my drink please?" :P
Why yes of course! :tophatmonocle:
Sweetened or unsweetened?
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
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Offline Shining Phoenix

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2011, 04:25:04 PM »
Level 20 characters drink GODDAMNED TEA with gods.
Unfortunate choice of words. "Nerull, can I have more tortured souls in my drink please?" :P
Why yes of course! :tophatmonocle:
Sweetened or unsweetened?
Unsweetened; sugar is something we use to lull our foes into a false sense of security.
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Offline Slaughterhouserock

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2011, 04:44:34 PM »
Level 20 - Save the universe
Level 20 characters drink GODDAMNED TEA with gods. They hope to not find FREAKIN' GUARDIAN ACORNS!

Fixed.

Ah, an HCBailly fan I see.
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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Iconic Examples?
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2011, 05:20:00 PM »
Level 20 - Save the universe
Level 20 characters drink GODDAMNED TEA with gods. They hope to not find FREAKIN' GUARDIAN ACORNS!

Fixed.

Ah, an HCBailly fan I see.

At least someone gets it.