Author Topic: Discussion  (Read 34280 times)

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2013, 11:50:10 PM »
Tangentially related, but do you have any plans for the other 6 chapters of the Book of Seven Secrets? "The Book of Just One Secret For Now" doesn't have the same ring to it.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2013, 11:59:21 AM »
The Divine Shard's 8-point techniques spoiler is broken.  The domains are neat.




Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2013, 09:32:31 PM »
Tangentially related, but do you have any plans for the other 6 chapters of the Book of Seven Secrets? "The Book of Just One Secret For Now" doesn't have the same ring to it.

Yes, I already have every class and system planned out. It's just a matter of getting it all down. For the sake of completeness, I have to make sure Remnant Magic is done before I work on the others, though. Once I get the Spell Remnants thread and Feats thread done, the system will at least be playable,so after that I plan to begin work on the second "secret" of the book. In between working on that, for a change of pace, I'll come back to this and add some prestige classes, monsters, magic items, races, ACFs, etc. Hopefully.

EDIT: Fixed the feats. Feel free to comment on them. By the way, this by no means the end of the feats that I'll come up with for this system. I haven't even made feats for combining remnants with psionics or invocations yet, or made fighter-based bonus feats for the Spellknight. I'll come back to this and add some stuff. I just want to make sure that what I have so far is sound.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 01:53:55 PM by TheGeometer »

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2013, 10:57:11 PM »
Just one more update before the system finally becomes completely playable. I'm struggling to type up all of the remnants, but once I'm done, there will be more than 50 of them, including some that are newly made since the revision. In the mean time, I've fixed some balance issues with the classes, shooting for about tier 3. RP now progresses linearly rather than quadratically for all classes, which keeps the effective DCs (when taking into account the mechanics for saving against multiple techniques) a lot closer to the linear progression of spellcasters. Once again, make sure to let me know if you find any problem with any class, feat, or concept.

EDIT: The remnants are done! It took almost a month, so I'm sorry about the wait. There are 70 of them so far, but I have a few additional ideas, and I think it'll end up closer to 90. In the mean time, I'll write up the remnant lists for the individual classes and copy/paste them into the threads for each class. I also have a few ideas for new feats that I'll write in, and then I'll work on the prestige classes.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 01:06:51 AM by TheGeometer »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2013, 10:13:36 AM »
Does this mean that minus potential future tweaking it is all worked out and finished?

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2013, 12:29:46 PM »
Does this mean that minus potential future tweaking it is all worked out and finished?

Hang on, I'm adding the next 15 or so remnants now. But finalizing these remnant lists really shouldn't take too long. I should have the first prestige classes up by the end of today. So, to answer your question, yeah, Remnant Magic is playable now.

YAY!

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2013, 12:31:26 PM »
Does this mean that minus potential future tweaking it is all worked out and finished?

Hang on, I'm adding the next 15 or so remnants now. But finalizing these remnant lists really shouldn't take too long. I should have the first prestige classes up by the end of today. So, to answer your question, yeah, Remnant Magic is playable now.

YAY!

Congratulations!

When are you going to get to work on the other magic systems?  :p

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2013, 05:48:14 PM »
Does this mean that minus potential future tweaking it is all worked out and finished?

Hang on, I'm adding the next 15 or so remnants now. But finalizing these remnant lists really shouldn't take too long. I should have the first prestige classes up by the end of today. So, to answer your question, yeah, Remnant Magic is playable now.

YAY!

Congratulations!

When are you going to get to work on the other magic systems?  :p

Way to spoil my celebration. :) I still have to finish the PrC's for this system (I have 4 in mind), and once I'm done those, the monsters, the magic items, and maybe a small thread about the League of Alborard, I'll get started on the next one.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2013, 06:00:20 PM »
Does this mean that minus potential future tweaking it is all worked out and finished?

Hang on, I'm adding the next 15 or so remnants now. But finalizing these remnant lists really shouldn't take too long. I should have the first prestige classes up by the end of today. So, to answer your question, yeah, Remnant Magic is playable now.

YAY!

Congratulations!

When are you going to get to work on the other magic systems?  :p

Way to spoil my celebration. :) I still have to finish the PrC's for this system (I have 4 in mind), and once I'm done those, the monsters, the magic items, and maybe a small thread about the League of Alborard, I'll get started on the next one.

What can I say, I like your work and want to see more of it!

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2013, 09:46:02 PM »
Thanks! Did you check out the Balance and Gameplay thread yet? That's new, too.

Oh, and I just finished posting the last of the spell remnants! There are now 90 total, which is a nice round number, especially for a system so centered around the number 6. I checked every spell in the SRD and now I honestly can't think of any other spell effects that I would want to have. So, in a few hours, I should be able to take all of those remnants and fit them into the right spell lists.

EDIT: Remnant Mage Remnant List Done
EDIT: Divine Shard Remnant List Done
EDIT: Last Bugs in Remnant Mage Fixed
EDIT: Last Bugs in Divine Shard Fixed
EDIT: Spellknight Remnant List Done
EDIT: Last Bugs in Spellknight Fixed
EDIT: Magician Remnant List Done
EDIT: Last Bugs in Magician Fixed
EDIT: Cantrip Caster Done
EDIT: Priest of Legacies Done
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 01:06:16 PM by TheGeometer »

Offline chaos_redefined

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2013, 07:14:02 AM »
An odd bug...  but according to the section on Remnant Magic, remnants require no components, which makes Conceal Remnant seem kinda pointless...  Is there something I'm missing?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 09:53:11 AM by chaos_redefined »

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2013, 12:44:37 PM »
Quote
Each remnant is a use of the magic that exists in the air around the caster. Though similar to a spell in that it requires somatic and verbal components to manipulate the magic, it is much simpler in practice. While casting spells involves creating magic, often in great proportions, casting remnants is merely moving small amounts of magic that have already been created. Consequently, casting a remnant takes a free action, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, does not incur an arcane spell failure chance, and never requires concentration or any other components.

Offline chaos_redefined

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2013, 06:02:45 PM »
Ah.  That would do it.

Has anyone playtested this yet?

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2013, 10:48:21 PM »
Ah.  That would do it.

Has anyone playtested this yet?

That's actually a good point. I playtested it before I made all of these changes to the system (which prompted me to make them in the first place), but now that it works so much differently, it should definitely be playtested again. It's only been a day since this has been playable, and barely a few hours since I got all the bugs out of it, so there hasn't really been a chance to playtest it yet.

Offline chaos_redefined

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2013, 12:42:44 AM »
Figured you may have been updating it after playtests.

I've only been looking at the Remnant Mage, and the biggest potential breakage is the fact that the abilities are free actions.  Assuming you are just working on blasting, you can easily end up with more damage than a blastificer, and potentially more damage than the mailman.  I may be missing something, so I'm just gonna suggest that you try it out.  Make a remnant mage, dedicate all your non-remnant feats to blastificer shenanigans, and see what you end up with.

About your new prestige class...  First, what does "+1 to arcane remnant casting class" actually do?  I'm guessing you get 3 more RP per round, and 1 more known remnant, but I figure I should check.

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2013, 02:56:42 AM »
Figured you may have been updating it after playtests.

I've only been looking at the Remnant Mage, and the biggest potential breakage is the fact that the abilities are free actions.  Assuming you are just working on blasting, you can easily end up with more damage than a blastificer, and potentially more damage than the mailman.  I may be missing something, so I'm just gonna suggest that you try it out.  Make a remnant mage, dedicate all your non-remnant feats to blastificer shenanigans, and see what you end up with.

About your new prestige class...  First, what does "+1 to arcane remnant casting class" actually do?  I'm guessing you get 3 more RP per round, and 1 more known remnant, but I figure I should check.

I did actually test the blasting, and that aspect hasn't changed substantially. It's not really that bad: at its best it's about 50% more than an Eldritch Blast after accounting for the save. Obviously, I'm using Eldritch Blast as my (somewhat too weak) standard for damage every round. The Magician does way more, because it's supposed to, and it can get up to twice or a bit more than twice as much as an Eldritch Blast (So, your standard Fireball) per turn if it really tries. But it's also limited by the day, so if it makes the equivalent of a Fireball, I'm okay with that. Playtests may reveal that I should tone down blasting power, but in theory it doesn't seem too game-breaking.

As for prestige classes, you're getting a little ahead of me there. I'm going to try to add a section about prestige classes to Remnant Magic tomorrow. But yeah, you're basically right. You get the same increase to RP you would have gotten, plus an additional remnant or 2 if you would have gotten them normally.

What concerns me is how deal with multiclassing. If a remnant caster loses out on a few more RP per turn, it's a lot worse than if a wizard loses some CL. That RP per turn also determines saves, so if a remnant caster loses enough RP per turn, he's not going to hit anything of his challenge rating. So how do I keep remnant casters powerful enough if they multiclass? Any ideas, anyone? This could be a big problem.

Offline chaos_redefined

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2013, 03:20:28 AM »
I've looked through it...  if you were getting 50% more powerful than the warlock, blasting-wise, then one of us is missing something...

Say we take Slash.  Make it the practiced remnant at level 2 (so it now costs 1 RP).  Then we are using all of our RP on it.  At level 10, with a starting int of 16, a headband of int+4, and putting both of your level-up increases into int, a Remnant Mage can have 35 RP.  Give him a 14 starting dex, and bracers of dex+2, and take into account his BAB, he's got a ranged attack of +8.  Let's say he gets a 10 on the roll.  Average touch AC for a CR 10 monster is 9.26, according to this.  So, we'll round up to say 10, and our Remnant Mage is beating them by 8.  So, we get 26 attacks through.  The total deals 26d6 damage.  More than five times what a warlock of the same level does.

So...  is the above wrong?

Even if we don't make it the practed remnant, we still do 17d6 damage, although the average is a bit weirder, because 10 gives us the maximum result.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 03:43:35 AM by chaos_redefined »

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2013, 11:27:52 AM »
I've looked through it...  if you were getting 50% more powerful than the warlock, blasting-wise, then one of us is missing something...

Say we take Slash.  Make it the practiced remnant at level 2 (so it now costs 1 RP).  Then we are using all of our RP on it.  At level 10, with a starting int of 16, a headband of int+4, and putting both of your level-up increases into int, a Remnant Mage can have 35 RP.  Give him a 14 starting dex, and bracers of dex+2, and take into account his BAB, he's got a ranged attack of +8.  Let's say he gets a 10 on the roll.  Average touch AC for a CR 10 monster is 9.26, according to this.  So, we'll round up to say 10, and our Remnant Mage is beating them by 8.  So, we get 26 attacks through.  The total deals 26d6 damage.  More than five times what a warlock of the same level does.

So...  is the above wrong?

Even if we don't make it the practed remnant, we still do 17d6 damage, although the average is a bit weirder, because 10 gives us the maximum result.

First of all, that is an awesome table and I wish I had known about it sooner. And second, I was actually only talking about Flare and the other elemental blasting remnants. :p Bludgeon and co. are new as of a few days ago, so I've never actually tested them. But based on what you're saying, they should definitely be revised. Any specific ideas of how to fix them?

Offline chaos_redefined

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2013, 08:57:11 PM »
Well, let's say we have a 10th level RM.  He uses his slash power, which costs N remnant poitns, as often as possible, floor(35/N).  He rolls a 10 on the attack roll, netting him min(floor(35/N), ceil(floor(35/N)/2)+8) hits, assuming a +8 to hit.  We want that to be somewhere around 7 or 8 hits.

So...
N = 1, 26 hits
N = 2, 17 hits
N = 3, 11 hits
N = 4, 8 hits
N = 5, 7 hits
N = 6, 5 hits
N = 7, 5 hits
N = 8, 4 hits
N = 9, 3 hits

Clearly, we want the power to cost either 4 or 5 RM.  If it's 4, then using practiced remnant on it allows the user to hit for 11d6 damage.  If it's 5, then using practiced remnant on it allows the user to hit for 8d6.

The biggest culprit in balancing all of this seems to be practiced remnant.  But...  I'm not sure what to do with it.  The Favored Remnant feat kinda sucks for a lot of powers, since +1 CL doesn't affect much, and +1 DC affects some powers, but you're better off taking Remnant School Focus then, which gives it +1 DC to all powers of that school.

The other thing that this doesn't take into account is the remnant reserve feats, and the meta-remnant feats.  If a player takes these feats, then their first round of combat does a lot more damage.  Assuming they have: Improved Initiative, Knowledge Devotion, Empower Remnant, Weapon Focus(Whatever Slash counts as), Remnant Reserve, Greater Remnant Reserve, Maximize Remnant, they start combat with 52 RM, which they then empower and maximize.  Assume they get a +2 to hit off Knowledge Devotion, they open combat with
Cost = 1 RM, 36 hits
Cost = 2 RM, 23 hits
Cost = 3 RM, 17 hits
Cost = 4 RM, 13 hits
Cost = 5 RM, 10 hits
Cost = 6 RM, 8 hits
Cost = 7 RM, 7 hits
Cost = 8 RM, 6 hits
Cost = 9 RM, 5 hits
Where each hit deals 6 + d6/2 damage (average 7.75).  If we cost it at 4, they deal, on average, 100.75 on the first round, and practiced remnant knocks this up to 131.75.   If we cost it at 5, they deal 77.5 damage on average, and this increases to 100.75 if they apply practiced remnant. 


While I'm fidgeting with numbers, let's take a level 10 human remnant mage who instead focuses on summoning.  He takes practiced remnant on Monster, and the feats: Spell Focus(Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Improved Initiative, Extend Remnant, Remnant Reserve, Greater Remnant Reserve, Improved Remnant Reserve.  He has the same +6 modifier I've been giving the previous guy, so he has 35 RP per round.  For the first round, he has 70 RP, so he uses Monster 35 times...  or he would, but a SM IX costs 25 uses, so that's all he needs to do.  He now has a creature off the SMIX list, which is stomping around and crushing combat, especially when it's backed up by whatever buffs the remnant mage has in wand form, and can get some extra movement from the excess RP the remnant mage has and the shift power.

Even without practiced remnant, he can still use Monster 23 times in the first round, which is enough to get a SMVIII creature.  After which, he has to use up most of his RP every round sustaining it, but he does have wands to play with.  Next level, he gets the extra RM he needs to summon a SMIX creature.

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2013, 09:36:17 PM »
I want to start by saying that I can tell by the fact that you did this math that you're an awesome person. We're friends now.

I also want to clear up a misconception that everyone seems to have (which I should clear up with more specific wording in a few places): Remnant Reserve doesn't just double your RP. It gives you a separate pool with as much RP, if you take all of the feats, as your first pool. This means that if you cast Flare out of both, the opponent saves twice, making it a lot weaker than if you just cast it twice as many times from one RP pool. And if you cast Monster out of both, you can't combine them and make a single monster, since they have to be in different groups. Yes, two monsters from Summon Monster VI is still strong at level 10, but then your reserve will be depleted and you won't be able to do that for a while, and Practiced Remnant makes it unnaturally strong. Without it, you're summoning 2 monsters from Summon Monster IV, which is about as balanced as you can get for level 10. I get why people would think otherwise about Remnant Reserve; the fact that I haven't emphasized the distinction is completely my fault.

On Practiced Remnant, the whole remnant mechanic makes it one of the most infuriating things to work with. Every time I make a remnant, I have to consider it, and often I don't consider it enough. I'm considering raising the minimum RP to 4. At RP costs higher than that, it doesn't seem to cause as many problems. Alternatively, I could just say that it lets you cast the remnant 25% more times for any given RP cost. That way, all remnants will act like the much less problematic conversion of 5 RP to 4.

Your analysis of Slash was very well done, and I don't see any problems with the math. One option is just to revalue Slash, Bludgeon, and Pierce to 4 RP, which, with the above change to Practiced Remnant, should be pretty balanced. The other is to just remove all checks but saves from Remnant Magic. I've already proven the balance of saves, and there are only 9 out of 90 remnants that require any check that isn't a save. I could easily just change these remnants so that they have Reflex saves rather than touch attacks.

As for metaremnant, you have a point. There is definitely a danger of people using them all at once like that. I have to make them naturally limiting somehow, but adding to the RP costs will just make them too easy to avoid. I'll ponder that problem a bit.