Author Topic: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers  (Read 15915 times)

Offline Libertad

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3618
    • View Profile
    • My Fantasy and Gaming Blog
Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« on: April 17, 2015, 01:45:07 PM »
Link is here.

An interesting article which talks about how earlier negative views of min-maxers crumbles when it comes to D20 games, where such tactics are often necessary to stay relevant in games with no player protection such as Fate Points.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2015, 04:12:57 PM »
my kitty avatar's Tail accepts the semi-apology  :D


I think the general Tiers concept, out ran any potential criticism.

I have a small issue with the "Min-Max is not for Every Game" section.
Nobody knew the game maths.
People assume they have intuited the flow of the game.
Then that gets the results of those two major problems.

Min-max and especially Tiers, can at least partially solve those.
Plain and simple ... you absolutely have to have some Min-max in a 3.X game for it to work.
If you don't, you're gonna run into well known problems.
Of course those problems can be short term, home game by home game, fixable by the "bennies" in this article.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2015, 04:34:26 PM »
This is my first experience with Gnome Stew, and while he seems like a nice, reasonably articulate guy ... but I'm also roundly unimpressed. 

He views there as one acceptable avenue of what he terms min-maxing:  using the system to protect your character.  Seeing this as the be all end all is bizarre if nothing else.  Gnome Stew references Savage Worlds, a system with bennies to give PCs some measure of plot armor.  By Gnome Stew's argument, this is not an appropriate venue for min-maxing.  So, by that logic, am I somehow doing something wrong when my Deadlands gunslinger character takes the Edges Two-Fisted and Ambidextrous, which let him competently fire two guns like I want him to?  Have I somehow misbehaved? 

Of course not.  I've conceived of a perfectly reasonable concept (indeed, that build is in the SW core book) and used the game system to achieve it.  There is a strong element of character optimization to this example -- I'm not sure if these talents count as "realistic" in Gnome Stew's estimation, they were selected to be effective -- although in many circles this would also just be called, y'know, playing a role-playing game.  Indeed, you can extend this logic to something absurd like asking why I bothered to get a good Shooting skill for the aforementioned gunslinger character. 

In the end, his apology misses the broader point of what character optimization (or more generally system literacy) can and often does.  Further, he seems to privilege the idea of protecting a PC, as if that's somehow special or more worthwhile than optimizing a character to realize a concept or do something interesting that the system might not handle in an obvious way.  And, perhaps as a result of this, his conclusions boil down to "don't be a dick" and the usual "talk to the player" or "counter optimize" recommendations that have been bandied about for decades.

Offline Libertad

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3618
    • View Profile
    • My Fantasy and Gaming Blog
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2015, 05:14:13 PM »
Even though I only tangentially touch upon Gnome Stew's response, this inspired me to write up a blog post.

I figured that it would be appropriate, given the chance of the spotlight being on us (Gnome Stew's a rather popular blog, after all).

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2015, 07:54:29 PM »
I love it when people mistake min-maxing for being a CHEATER WHO HAS TO WIN THE GAME 4EVAH! I guess it all comes from people looking at CO stuff and thinking "this is what those guys bring to every game, regardless of what everyone else is playing."

Silly.

EDIT: To clarify: I'm HIGHLY aware that there are dicks that do bring CODzillas to a game where the other guy's playing a S&B Fighter, with full knowledge of the consequences. I just find it so fun to be grouped in with them, especially since I'm more of Libertad's style.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 08:12:49 PM by Amechra »
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline ketaro

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4241
  • I'm always new!
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2015, 03:55:56 AM »
I make it a point to aim lower than the ceiling. It's hard to consistently jump lower than you know you can easily reach :3

Offline NumberKruncher

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2015, 07:23:28 AM »
Thanks for posting this.
Dwarf FTW.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2015, 03:35:06 PM »
+1 to Libertad's blog post.

That one can be duplicated at every single table !!
Fighter and Druid get downtime, and ...
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline bluephenix

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2015, 06:05:10 PM »
Alot of the time, I'm branded a min-maxer when I'm nothing of the kind. I'm so lazy that i've proclaimed many a time that I'll never play 3x or pf druids cos I can't be bothered to find all the forms I'd want.

What I find is that in a group of 5 players, myself and like, 1 MAYBe 2 other people have actually read the rules and the other 3 are still asking what kind of action total defense is after 4-5 sessions and for some reason the tank/dpr with a polearm rolls a 19 and still doesn't hit, isn't trying to disarm/trip/sunder or do anything different because of "I don't read" symdrome.

Moving on from the rantiness of that... i think what the article misses out commenting on is build choice. In a game like Vampire the mascarade or alot of the old and new world of darkness stuff, there's only a set number of combinations of disciplines / merits / powers one can gain to push their char to what people would think is min / maxing, but in games like 3x I don't even want to think in terms of combinations of numbers  between, classes, races, feats, alone, without tossing in the mayhem of magical  items and such involved.

Ergo, the more choice you have to build something, the wider the probability is that you'll build something that really doesn't work cohesively.

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2015, 12:30:22 PM »
I wonder what's satisfying to people about saving their characters with plot armor instead of through their own choices.  The moments I can remember best in D&D are the times when my players overcame a challenge that I wasn't sure they could, in part because they came up with a solution I did not anticipate.  Plot armor mechanics seem to train players to be lazy and I won't use them short of stuff like 5e's inspiration and Eberron's action points.

Why would I bother putting any effort into creating challenges if I know the players will just plot armor them away?
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2015, 12:40:47 PM »
I wonder what's satisfying to people about saving their characters with plot armor instead of through their own choices.  The moments I can remember best in D&D are the times when my players overcame a challenge that I wasn't sure they could, in part because they came up with a solution I did not anticipate.  Plot armor mechanics seem to train players to be lazy and I won't use them short of stuff like 5e's inspiration and Eberron's action points.

Why would I bother putting any effort into creating challenges if I know the players will just plot armor them away?

Because they're a finite resource? There's a difference between 'you have a limited pool of things to improve your situation' and 'plot armour'.

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2015, 10:03:43 PM »
I wonder what's satisfying to people about saving their characters with plot armor instead of through their own choices.  The moments I can remember best in D&D are the times when my players overcame a challenge that I wasn't sure they could, in part because they came up with a solution I did not anticipate.  Plot armor mechanics seem to train players to be lazy and I won't use them short of stuff like 5e's inspiration and Eberron's action points.

Why would I bother putting any effort into creating challenges if I know the players will just plot armor them away?

Because they're a finite resource? There's a difference between 'you have a limited pool of things to improve your situation' and 'plot armour'.

I agree there's a difference, I just don't like the kinds that are "get out of jail free" cards personally.  I'm a fan of action points and inspiration because they can turn around instances of bad luck with dice but not necessarily negate really dumb choices.  In the shop I run my games in, I've seen some other games that have these limited plot armor points and the players do some extremely stupid things and then use their plot armor to get out of it, and never seem to learn why their stupid actions should have gotten them killed.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2015, 08:51:34 AM »
To be fair, bennies (Savage Worlds) are essentially like action points, inspiration points, or hero points.  They're not identical, but they fit in the same spot systems-wise.

What kind of plot armor mechanics are there that are "sturdier" than these and might mitigate stupid choices? 

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2015, 09:17:08 AM »
Well, the Warhammer RP systems have fate points... but given that you're likely to get killed in these things even being sensible, they're almost as necessary as Paranoia's clones.

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16075
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2015, 05:43:33 PM »
Has Warhammer RP changed?  When I first played it everyone had 1 hit point.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2015, 05:44:47 PM »
Has Warhammer RP changed?  When I first played it everyone had 1 hit point.

Second edition came out in 2005, and has the same mechanics as the 40k rpg's (which I DO know), from what I can see from skimming.

Offline NumberKruncher

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2015, 01:10:17 PM »
Plot armor? What's that?
Dwarf FTW.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10708
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2015, 01:26:15 PM »
Plot armor? What's that?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor
That answers it better than I likely could, and it is a lot quicker to post. ;)

Within the context of an RPG, it is basically a "get out of jail free" card which allows a PC to avoid an undesireable fate.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2015, 02:40:25 PM »
Has Warhammer RP changed?  When I first played it everyone had 1 hit point.

Second edition came out in 2005, and has the same mechanics as the 40k rpg's (which I DO know), from what I can see from skimming.

Low level the 40k rpgs can be summed up with:

"you walk into a room, someone shoots you in the face with an armour piercing grenade. You die and explode taking the rest of your party with you"

It has some truly hilarious critical hit tables.

Note: that is a 7 on a 1-10 critical hit table.... 8, 9 and 10 are even messier
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 02:42:41 PM by littha »

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: Gnome Stew writes apology article to Min-Maxers
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2015, 03:20:13 PM »
Unless you're a Sister of Battle in Dark Heresy, in which case you're probably the only person still alive in the room.