Author Topic: I'm just not all that excited by 5e  (Read 37499 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« on: August 29, 2015, 12:58:44 AM »
Does anyone want to get me excited? I remember tons of 2e -> 3e conversion stuff. Is there 3e->5e conversion stuff? Is there an SRD? Is there a list of the books out yet? Google has failed me.

It's all "gain +5 to a roll" advantage (or whatever they call it ... which seems oddly similar to legend).
Have less spell statistics, use psionics ML defaults without telling you that's what it is, and have all the broken core spells (knock, rope trick, etc) without the cool ones (resilient sphere)
Have base classes with dead levels! Enjoy more uneven spell progressions!
Let's plagerize whole sentences word for word from random 3e books (MotP ...) and make you rebuy what you already bought!

I ignored 4e after I saw the campaign taking a dump on 3e fans, but 5e seems to be open to the 3e base. Are there any hopes for crunch released in .xls format? or will I have to repeat that work for 5e if there isn't a systematic import procedure for spells/items/classes/etc?

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 02:00:13 PM »
I doubt it's what you're looking for, but the main appeal I've seen at the local store to 5e is that it's extremely easy to get new players into and still has the 3.5 feel to me, and I've heard from 2e players that it has a similar feel to that too.

It's not nearly as robust, but that's to your advantage if you need to find new people to play with.

The only real conversion is a set of guidelines in the DMG that tells you how to make monsters of a certain CR.  You need a creative and willing DM if you want player options from a previous edition without a 5e version yet.

There's no SRD.  As for books, there's the starter set which has a short adventure in it, player's handbook, monster manual, dungeon master's guide, hoard of the dragon queen module which has a few unique magic items and monsters, rise of tiamat which has some unique magic items and monsters, and princes of the apocalypse which has a free supplement called the elemental evil player's companion.  PotA has new races, spells, items, and monsters.  The EEPC has the PotA races and spells in a pdf available for free on drive thru rpg.
Knock is still Knock, but spell slots are harder to come by, thieves' tools proficiency is easy to come by, and ability checks to deal with locks are reasonable for a proficient, dex-based character to make consistently.

Rope Trick only lasts an hour now, so you can get a short rest in there but you can't just go inside and safely recover all your spells.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere is in the PHB.  If you're used to the SRD name, I can see you how missed it.

Dead levels?  Every class gets something on a new level.  You can certainly debate the power of some of those features, but the only levels with no feature explicitly attached are levels where a class gains a new level of spells.  Spell level progression is the same for every full caster.  Paladins and rangers as half casters are on the same progression, and the 1/3 archetypes are on the same progression.  Warlocks stand out but they have a different spell recovery mechanic that keeps them viable.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline Childe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Even forever must end, I think. ...
    • View Profile
    • Legend RPG, Rule of Cool Gaming
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 02:03:11 PM »
It's not a great game, but if you're limited by your friends/playgroup to 3.5, PF or this, I'd generally choose this because it requires far fewer gentleman's agreements to play, is easier on new players*, and runs slightly smoother.

*The only player content comes from the PHB, DMG (magic items) and Elemental Evil Player's Companion (some spells).

The first actual player-oriented splatbook that they're selling is due in November (Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide).

But yes, dead levels still suck (as in 3.5), there's no conversion guides, no SRD.

The gameplay is pretty lousy at low levels (1-2) for most spellcasters though, as the system assumes you'll have a damage cantrip but it's easy for new players to miss that and end up useful 2/day at level 1 -- where they may very well end up missing anyway with their spells -- and then sit out the rest of combat (as happened to the Cleric in our party). Even for noncasters, the attack:AC ratio at low levels makes combat tedious, with a LOT of missing. We had an exchange where no one hit for 4 rounds.
"You had a tough day at the office. So you come home, make
yourself some dinner, smother your kids, pop in a movie, maybe
have a drink. It's fun, right? Wrong. Don't smother your kids."
- The More You Know

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 03:07:55 PM »
html Basic rules --- call it a (very) mini SRD :
http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

I think it's rather obvious the balance between
full casters and the half casters, although some
large portion of the class abilities are still opaque.
idk how 1/3rd casters and non-casters do balance.

Dragging the 1e + 2e grogs into a math based game,
should strike them at a subconscious level ... they've
managed to run a checkbook for 40+ years, so the
"math-y-ness" of 5e is easier to stomach.
 ;)  :D

Bah, History is a big headwind.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline LordBlades

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 914
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2015, 01:21:58 AM »
It's not a great game, but if you're limited by your friends/playgroup to 3.5, PF or this, I'd generally choose this because it requires far fewer gentleman's agreements to play, is easier on new players*, and runs slightly smoother.


On the other hand, I imagine the game is a lot harder on new DMs though. If the players aren't really content to stay inside the box made up of the care rules of the game, there are huge areas that are basically 'ask your DM', with almost 0 actual guidance as to how the designers imagined a particular circumstance should be ruled (I've seen few systems where RAI is less clear than 5e).  In my group we have ruled a lot of stuff based on how it was in 3.5. Without that frame of reference it would have been a lot harder to reach a consensus.

Offline Childe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
  • Even forever must end, I think. ...
    • View Profile
    • Legend RPG, Rule of Cool Gaming
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2015, 11:50:43 AM »
It's not a great game, but if you're limited by your friends/playgroup to 3.5, PF or this, I'd generally choose this because it requires far fewer gentleman's agreements to play, is easier on new players*, and runs slightly smoother.


On the other hand, I imagine the game is a lot harder on new DMs though. If the players aren't really content to stay inside the box made up of the care rules of the game, there are huge areas that are basically 'ask your DM', with almost 0 actual guidance as to how the designers imagined a particular circumstance should be ruled (I've seen few systems where RAI is less clear than 5e).  In my group we have ruled a lot of stuff based on how it was in 3.5. Without that frame of reference it would have been a lot harder to reach a consensus.
Yes and no. You're right in that 5e does a terrible job with having gaps in the rules, etc. It can also make the game less fun if you're doing certain modules, because they attempt to cover those gaps by telling the DM to say no essentially, which is about the worst thing a game like this can advise.

On the other hand, pausing the game to figure out which book has the rules for situation A in 3.X can ruin a game night too.

Honestly, it's a matter of two (or three, counting PF) evils. I would never recommend 5e out of a vacuum, only if it's strictly between those choices or other very similar games.
"You had a tough day at the office. So you come home, make
yourself some dinner, smother your kids, pop in a movie, maybe
have a drink. It's fun, right? Wrong. Don't smother your kids."
- The More You Know

Offline Pity Crit

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
    • Inspired DM Solutions
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2015, 06:51:01 PM »
For me, it's been a sort of disphoric inability to decide what I should run or write stuff about. Like, I'm pretty sure more people are still playing Pathfinder than 5e. I can mostly write things that are adaptable to either PF or 5e, but there's also a not insignificant amount of people playing 4e, too, and there isn't much hope for making things compatible with that. The rules in 5e seem pretty robust and I like relying on DM fiat because that's when a lot of fun things happen, but I don't have the same expertise and feel for balance that I do with earlier editions. I dunno.
"Nice ableism. My fighter can't do ANY of those things."

(Blog)

Offline zioth

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • Moo!
    • View Profile
    • Role-playing resources
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 08:35:26 PM »
I haven't gotten to play 5E yet, but I'm really looking forward to it. 3.5 is really good, but it has some major flaws. It's very rules-heavy, classes are unbalanced relative to each other, characters must have certain magic items to be playable, the goal is always to figure out how to get one more bonus rather than any interesting abilities or items, and combat is rigid -- if you're not standing still and making a full attack, you're probably doing the wrong thing.


While Pathfinder makes some major improvements, it makes the class balance issue even worse, giving nice new things to all classes, but the best nice new things to spellcasters.


4E makes balance its main focus, to the detriment of gameplay. Every class has the same set of powers, with each class having slightly more of one type of attack or effect.


I think 5E, while not perfect, is the best version of D&D yet. A 20th level fighter is a very playable class, while still feeling like a fighter. Classes aren't perfectly balanced (fighter and spellcasters are better than monk, barbarian and rogue, which are far better than the poor, left-out ranger), but the differences aren't nearly as great. Levels are no longer exponential. In 3.5, a dozen 10th level wizards would have no chance against a 20th level wizard. That's not true anymore. Magic items are rare and interesting. Some give bonuses, but the numbers are always small. In the same vein, you're not collecting hundreds of bonuses and penalties and figuring out which ones apply when; you either have advantage (roll twice and take the greater), disadvantage (roll twice and take the worse) or neither. Maybe, in a rare situation, there's a small bonus thrown in there somewhere.


Classes are not just balanced, but interesting. Reading through the PHB, I want to play every class (except ranger). Every class has fun new abilities at every level, in addition to paths similar to Pathfinder archetypes, which make it possible to have 2 or 3 of the same class in the party without everyone looking like clones.


With some exceptions, spells are much more balanced, without having to use 3.5's solution of reducing spell duration. You can only have one buff up at a time (for the most part), and you never have more than one 9th level spell per day. DCs are based on caster level, so 1st level spells and cantrips are useful even at level 20. Using higher level spell slots for low level spells gives you nice bonuses, and you always have damaging cantrips to fall back on which can be cast an unlimited number of times per day and do damage that scales with level. You can be a viable spellcaster who can only cast up to 5th level spells but has 9th level spell slots (multiclassing can get you into that situation).


Multiclassing is neither required like in 3.5, overly complicated like in 2nd, nor detrimental (often) like in Pathfinder. Every class except ranger is perfectly viable for 20 levels, and you can also multiclass for some interesting combinations. You can even multiclass spell-casting classes and still be viable.


The optional Feats rule is fun. You can either get +2 to an ability score, or take a feat, most of which give you three interesting abilities.


Flaws? There aren't many that I've seen. The ranger is stupidly under-powered, so don't play a ranger. It's trivial to make a rogue who can hide and sneak attack every round, which may or may not be over-powered, but it does mean it's hard to justify a non-halfling rogue. Certain spell combinations are broken (simulacrum + wish = unlimited money), but nothing a DM can't fix. Skills are nice and simple, which also makes them less interesting, because two PCs with the same level and class will always have the same bonuses to certain skills, but that won't matter unless you play a large number of 5E PCs or if there are two members of the same class in the party.




Well, there's my first post in years, and it's a biggie. I hope it helps. :)

Offline Pity Crit

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
    • Inspired DM Solutions
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2015, 10:30:57 PM »
I found it thoughtful!

I've actually played 5e a couple times and your opinions mesh with my experiences (though I played as a low-level ranger without complaint). I do think the designers were a little lazy with the concentration mechanic. It's a fundamentally good mechanic but way too many of the spells are concentration-based, which limits caster options a bit. I also prefer one-trick-pony feats to the trollman-style complicated stuff, but that's easy enough to fix.
"Nice ableism. My fighter can't do ANY of those things."

(Blog)

Offline sambojin

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 472
  • It's a game. Have fun.
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2015, 11:31:11 PM »
It's kind of weird that the "theatre of the mind" and the +2/-2 for setting stuff up properly RP-style didn't get mentioned.

Yep. There's advantage and disadvantage. Adding in +/- 1 or 2 for awesome or being a muggins makes DMing easy. With lower caps on everything, that little bonus, with advantage or disadvantage if there's reasons for it, makes anything possible.

Easiest rule ever, but never got mentioned as much as in previous editions. Open world, with the DM just fudging rolls for "reasons".

But roll away. RP away. Plan away. +/- 2 will fix it.

Offline Amechra

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4560
  • Thread Necromancy a specialty
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2015, 11:56:05 PM »
It's kind of weird that the "theatre of the mind" and the +2/-2 for setting stuff up properly RP-style didn't get mentioned.

Yep. There's advantage and disadvantage. Adding in +/- 1 or 2 for awesome or being a muggins makes DMing easy. With lower caps on everything, that little bonus, with advantage or disadvantage if there's reasons for it, makes anything possible.

Easiest rule ever, but never got mentioned as much as in previous editions. Open world, with the DM just fudging rolls for "reasons".

But roll away. RP away. Plan away. +/- 2 will fix it.

Actually, 3.5 had that too, in the form of circumstantial bonuses; you just don't hear about those on these forums because they aren't something you can optimize.
"There is happiness for those who accept their fate, there is glory for those that defy it."

"Now that everyone's so happy, this is probably a good time to tell you I ate your parents."

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 762
  • Former Lord of the Kitchen Sink
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2015, 01:01:18 AM »
Can't say I'm excited either, I mean I have the core books and have thumbed through them, and I don't get what's so special about the legendary ape and T-rex that they made them out of reach for druid ws.

The thing that really got me into 3rd edition was the old PC game Neverwinter Nights.  Is there anything like that for 5th?

Edit: still no OGL/GSL, what ?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 01:21:32 AM by JohnnyMayHymn »
The Emperor
Can you find the Wumpus?

Offline LordBlades

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 914
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2015, 03:01:54 AM »

Yes and no. You're right in that 5e does a terrible job with having gaps in the rules, etc. It can also make the game less fun if you're doing certain modules, because they attempt to cover those gaps by telling the DM to say no essentially, which is about the worst thing a game like this can advise.



They really put that kind of stuff into adventures ? Wtf?

My group gave up on published adventures a long while back, so we didn't pay any attention to the 5e ones, but now you've spiked my curiosity :P

Would you mind pointing out where this kind of advice is located (I might be able to borrow some 5e published modules to look through them) ?

The optional Feats rule is fun. You can either get +2 to an ability score, or take a feat, most of which give you three interesting abilities.

While the idea sounds fun, the implementation is borderline horrible IMO. With the current selection of feats and magic items for most classes there's a no brainer whether you should chose stat increase or feat.

Take a caster for example, let's say a wizard.
+2 int gives you:
1 extra spell prepared per day
+1 to DCs
+1 to attack rolls with spells
+1 to int checks (skills and abilities) and int saving throws

I highly doubt any feat published so far can compare to the benefits of +2 int (not even Lucky).

On the other hand, a non-caster, like a fighter, has a ton of useful feats (arguably more useful than the +1 attack/dmg he gets from +2 str) and, whenever putting points into Str you run the risk that sooner or later you will come across a belt of giant's strength, making your investment in str null and void.

Now there probably are builds for which 'stat increase or feat' is a meaningful choice, but for the majority I think the bias is pretty clear toward one side or the other.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 03:19:00 AM by LordBlades »

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2015, 11:01:23 AM »
Resilient (Con) and War Caster are the closest you will get to must-have feats, but you'd probably still boost Int first in every situation.  ASIs cap at 20 though, so you'll be picking feats at level 8 or 12 depending on default array, point buy, or rolled scores with an optimal race.  After that, Lucky and Alert are nice.  Not exactly diverse.

A pretty common houserule I have seen is to give a feat at character creation to let non-fighters and non-rogues have some fun with feats before level 12.

In my own games, I sometimes offer feats in place of treasure.  The DMG on page 231 offers a ruling for characters training for feats.  Not really optimizable, but negotiable with a willing DM.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline LordBlades

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 914
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2015, 11:23:05 AM »
ASIs cap at 20 though, so you'll be picking feats at level 8 or 12 depending on default array, point buy, or rolled scores with an optimal race.  After that, Lucky and Alert are nice.  Not exactly diverse.


Assuming PB (the system should wprk with PB as well), you can't get above 17 Int at character creation AFAIK, so the only way to max int and still get a feat at level 8 is if you take Keen Mind (or are there othet +1 int feats that I forgot about?) 12 levels for the first feat seems a very long time to me.

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2015, 11:40:54 AM »
Does anyone want to get me excited? I remember tons of 2e -> 3e conversion stuff. Is there 3e->5e conversion stuff? Is there an SRD? Is there a list of the books out yet? Google has failed me.
Officially WotC was supposed to provide a conversion which probably killed some fan's hype to do their own. And then WotC dropped the ball on it.

There is a public release called the basic rules but there are no Supplements at this time. WotC's direction is tabletop MMORPG at this time, this means lots of adventures and everyone reporting their gaming to the central control hub. Now among those, most are released online and zero new content. However WotC is publishing key adventures that do include new things, currently that list is limited to Horde of the Dragon Queen & Rise of Tiamat (the dragon arc), the Temple of Elemental Evil & Princes of the Apocalypse (the toee arc). WotC's website also has an Unearthed Arcana web series that has released some extras including Warforged.

I already compiled a lovely list. Included is a list of all online content from the last update to the post, easy reference of tools, 3rd Skills to 5th, all language buried in the books, and a quick spell-less expected DPS curve of mundanes to get you an idea of the game's intended number play.


It's all "gain +5 to a roll" advantage (or whatever they call it ... which seems oddly similar to legend).
"Advantage" is roll 2d20 and choose highest. In odds, it's worth about +3.

Have less spell statistics, use psionics ML defaults without telling you that's what it is, and have all the broken core spells (knock, rope trick, etc) without the cool ones (resilient sphere)
Eh, it's been simplified. The Spells still pretty much function the same, IE you spend an AoO provoking action to cast a 10x10ft area Grease which can trip people. The differences are more related to the root mechanics, like Grease isn't a monster raping spell anymore even through it's pretty much the same Spell.

The optional Feats rule is fun. You can either get +2 to an ability score, or take a feat, most of which give you three interesting abilities.
While the idea sounds fun, the implementation is borderline horrible IMO. With the current selection of feats and magic items for most classes there's a no brainer whether you should chose stat increase or feat.
ASI's are capped at 20 and when it comes to Str there is a belt that sets you to 29 no matter your base value. So you're right it's a no brainer when it comes to choosing Feats over ASIs in the later, or even sooner, levels.

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2015, 01:58:08 AM »
ASIs cap at 20 though, so you'll be picking feats at level 8 or 12 depending on default array, point buy, or rolled scores with an optimal race.  After that, Lucky and Alert are nice.  Not exactly diverse.


Assuming PB (the system should wprk with PB as well), you can't get above 17 Int at character creation AFAIK, so the only way to max int and still get a feat at level 8 is if you take Keen Mind (or are there othet +1 int feats that I forgot about?) 12 levels for the first feat seems a very long time to me.

You're right, I misremembered the point buy rules and they only go up to 15, not 16.  I roll 5 ability scores and use that with an 18 for my players to distribute as they wish plus a bonus feat for writing a character background, so my views on feats are a little skewed.  The training wheels levels are really easy that way, but I tend not to care how challenging combat is until at least level 5.

Keen Mind, Linguist, Observant, and Resilient can boost Intelligence.  Observant is the best of that lot, since Resilient for Intelligence would be a waste of that feat.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2015, 12:09:29 PM »
I'm not sure what that post or it's quote are getting at, You were right before TenJ.

A Feat that provides a +1 bonus to an Ability Score is still a Feat.
So an example of 15 & +2 racial is literally built on obtaining a Feat before the 12th level.

Offline TenaciousJ

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • AVENGE WAGON
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2015, 12:37:00 PM »
I'm not sure what that post or it's quote are getting at, You were right before TenJ.

A Feat that provides a +1 bonus to an Ability Score is still a Feat.
So an example of 15 & +2 racial is literally built on obtaining a Feat before the 12th level.

Part of my original context was cut off from the quote chain.  I mentioned Resilient (Con) and Warcaster as feats a wizard probably wants after getting to 20 intelligence.  Observant is the only halfway decent feat that gives +1 intelligence, and the other benefits of that feat are not even close to as useful in combat as Resilient (Con) and Warcaster.  Yes, you can take Observant at level 8 on a 15 PB Int +2 Int from race.

This is what I meant by my view of feats is skewed by how I run my games.  Would you take Observant if you could get to 18 intelligence with standard point buy and race?  I would imagine you'd take +2 intelligence at level 4 and take Resilient or Warcaster at 8.  I considered Observant not useful because I forgot how useful that +1 Int could be in a more standard game.   I was not content to be technically right when it was based on a false perception.
Make Eberron Great Again! #MEGA

Offline sambojin

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 472
  • It's a game. Have fun.
    • View Profile
Re: I'm just not all that excited by 5e
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2015, 08:07:28 AM »
Does anyone want to get me excited? I remember tons of 2e -> 3e conversion stuff. Is there 3e->5e conversion stuff? Is there an SRD? Is there a list of the books out yet? Google has failed me.

It's all "gain +5 to a roll" advantage (or whatever they call it ... which seems oddly similar to legend).
Have less spell statistics, use psionics ML defaults without telling you that's what it is, and have all the broken core spells (knock, rope trick, etc) without the cool ones (resilient sphere)
Have base classes with dead levels! Enjoy more uneven spell progressions!
Let's plagerize whole sentences word for word from random 3e books (MotP ...) and make you rebuy what you already bought!

I ignored 4e after I saw the campaign taking a dump on 3e fans, but 5e seems to be open to the 3e base. Are there any hopes for crunch released in .xls format? or will I have to repeat that work for 5e if there isn't a systematic import procedure for spells/items/classes/etc?


5e is still very open to interpretation. It's one of the good and bad things about it rules-wise.

There's nothing like the 3.5 "But this book said this was fine. And it's my choice. Excel said so. So did the internet" stuff in 5th. Or rather, it's still being gathered. Come aboard and help.

RP reasons, DM approval, campaign style, game-world, all come way before splat-books or even core rulebooks in 5th. Or internet thingies.

I actually think the PHB, DMG, MM and any released campaigns are very light on "fluff" and descriptions/game-world considering this. It's a pity, because it's a very open game system. Possibly too open to interpretation.

But can you go crunchy, or informationy, or build-orientated, or breakage on what we've got so far?

Hell yes. You've come to the right place.

There's a heap of imbalance in the system, a heap of balance, and a heap of "meh, whatever" too. It's not 3.5/PF levels of broken, but they tend to end up as a librarian's exercise on cross-referencing books and pretending you don't have a DM, a game-world or a gaming group to play in. Those systems are absolutely busted on splat. 5th just doesn't assume any of it's kosher, regardless of how official the source is. Hell, put whatever you want on the internet. If your DM says it's cool, then it is. But your playgroup may not be able to use entire tracts from the PHB if your DM doesn't like it. This is the official rule in 5th.

But there's bugger all reason, story or fluff of why this may or may not be included in any core book or adventure. No basic "game-world" to consider. If the other editions didn't exist for backgrounds, it'd be hard to tell wtf a 5th edition "vaguely standard" world was meant to be like. It's good and it's bad. You can be as creative you want, but there's very little context to put stuff in. It's just stuff. I'd hate to explain how to get from the PHB, DMG and MM to a new DM without D&D experience into something that the average playgroups would vaguely expect as "normal" for a D&D campaign. It's not meant to be the "Vanilla manual of standard D&D gameplay" (there is no such thing), but it's absurdly vague on many things as a major release, on both the player and DM end of things.

It's kind of stupid and lazy too. I wonder what the hell the game system's copyright or intellectual property is based on actually. Here's some stats and stuff, deal with it, have fun.

But......

We're getting splat, and it's WotC/3rd Party splat, soon. More context, more rules, more stuff.

And minmax will roar, with every little stupid f'ed up thing in them. And we're still finding dumb stuff in what we've got in 5th so far.

And we assume a DM and campaign to play in (mostly).

So help away. It's got stuff to consider still, you just haven't found it yet (or any new stuff, anyway). Or posted and collated and helped with librarianship (that will instantly be DM veto'd, possibly even after being acceptable for several play sessions).

5th is sort of weird like that. There's crunch, but it depends on who you play with on what's acceptable. Considering the BS that 3.5 became, I'm hoping the splat is slightly better thought out though. It probably won't be. (EE, level 1 flight with birdmen, not exactly well thought out on balance compared to anything else in the system. We'll see where splat goes soon).
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 08:11:53 AM by sambojin »