Author Topic: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II  (Read 11178 times)

Offline Tohron

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The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« on: September 08, 2012, 02:17:09 PM »
Total invulnerability -a major goal for any being of power.  I made an earlier character aiming for this objective, but its method for evading divinations (using the position of an object in a looping teleportation circle chain as the basis for who gets control, so the identity of the controller isn't absolute) proved controversial.  So here I am with a new and improved version - I present: The Sphere!

So first, the starting conditions.  Let's say we have an epic-level Thrallherd Nomad Psion, with wizard and artificer cohorts, who's been powerleveling via Scry & Die, so has effectively limitless XP and resources.
Now, the building:  It is a spherical structure with no entrances, and a hollow interior.  This interior contains certain mindless undead (detailed later) and certain magic items (also detailed later).  Any empty space is filled with Gelatinous Cubes, so it becomes impossible to teleport inside.

The magic items include 48 Lyres of Building, which are played by some of the undead to make the building indestructible 24-7.  The building itself is also enchanted by the artificer, so it cannot be affected by powers which only work on nonmagical objects.  Lastly, the Wizard then throws up a double-layered permanent Epic Ward, which directly blocks the Afflict, Destroy, Dispel, and Transport seeds (treating them as 10th level spells).  Since the Ward is double-layered, each Ward protects the other from the Destroy and Dispel seeds.  The dispel DC for these wards is boosted so high that no non-epic spells can dispel it.

Now for the anti-divination part.  The Psion builds up a Weird Engine (Air Weirds under his control that can repeated cast Contact Other Plane) and uses the result power to figure out how to replicate his consciousness as a very large number of separate, simple, components that can respond to sensory imputs by providing an instruction and/or activating other components.

Once this task is complete, he sets about creating these components, along with an automatically resetting Dimensional Oubliette (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/dimensional-oubliette) trap.  Once the components are complete, he devises a way to feed them sensory input and to deliver their instructions to the mindless undead operators, and to the Dimensional Oubliette trap.  Lastly, he sends all components not actively engaged in thought into their own Dimensional Oubliette, where their existence "is merely theoretical" they "do not exist conventionally" and divination/clairsentience effects used on them "fail as if they were used on something nonexistent".  When a component activates another, it uses the Dimensional Oubliette trap to free them, and each component uses the trap on itself to go inactive.

This done, the trap is used to send the psion, all his cohorts and followers, along with the Air Weirds and anything else used in construction, to a Dimensional Oubliette.  Now, the component-based "brain" is all that remains, and since the vast majority of it is in the Phantom Zone at any given time, its operation is literally inscrutable.

Now, for the fun.  We have an indestructible sphere with an inscrutable operator, so what do we do with it?  One idea:  let one of the mindless undead have over 20 HD, use Psychic Reformation to give it Throw Anything and Distant Shot(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) (use epic spells to enhance its physical capabilities as needed).  Give it flight, and a way to see through the stone, and it can throw the Sphere at anything it can see, for massive damage.

If you have any more ideas for undead operators or magic items to put in the sphere, feel free to submit them.  Thanks for reading!
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Offline Ziegander

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2012, 02:31:18 PM »
I don't have any cool ideas for you, I just wanted to stop by to say, "fun read."

Offline Garryl

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 02:34:02 PM »
Once you start adding in both epic spells and 3rd party material, you're getting dangerously close to just making things up. Then you do so when you start talking about replicating your consciousness in an arbitrary manner (provide a method or remove that, because you are just making it up at that point).

I don't see how you're getting the Epic Wards to protect the interior of the sphere. Ward Seed affects a specific object, or provides an emanation, not both. Also, Reserves of Strength and CL shenanigans means that you can, actually, have however high a dispel check on non-epic dispels.

Also, mindless creatures don't get feats, so you can't give Throw Anything and Distant Shot to a 21+ HD mindless undead.

Offline Halinn

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2012, 02:57:48 PM »
For total invulnerability, you're better off looking towards some of the methods that Pun-Pun uses, i.e. getting ghost rejuvenation, aleax singular enemy, regeneration tricks, and/or zodar invulnerability, among others. I'm also not sure that you have covered the case of blocking teleports in by stuff that is small enough to share a space with the ooze (wish-transport should get around a weirdstone), or gates.

Offline McPoyo

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 09:47:07 AM »
Well, if you become Vecna-blooded after creating that sanctuary, that it was created and what is inside it only ever becomes known by those who enter it after you become Vecna-blooded. Sort of a form of invulnerability through perfect obscurity.

Offline brujon

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 10:00:22 AM »
Well, if you become Vecna-blooded after creating that sanctuary, that it was created and what is inside it only ever becomes known by those who enter it after you become Vecna-blooded. Sort of a form of invulnerability through perfect obscurity.

Vecna would still know about it though. He could blabber his mouth about it if he wanted to... Better snuff that mofo before he figures out what you're up to...
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Offline Tohron

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 12:10:12 PM »
Thinking about updating the plan to take the comments into the account.  Regarding a magical protection to substitute for the Epic Wards and enchanted exterior, I was thinking of coating the sphere in many, many layers of some magical material that is destroyed when dispelled, then having Truenamer followers use readied actions to reconstitute them.  Would Riverine work for this (and would it block line-of-sight)?

Since it seems mindless creatures can't take feats, it seems I'll have to settle for regular followers receiving telepathic orders.  This means their actions could be divined once they get orders, but the orders themselves couldn't be determined.  Problem is, this opens the followers up to strategies like Love's pain assassination, though I suppose Delay Death traps might be able to stall those.

As for how the mind-replicating trick works, here's a basic layout: assuming that D&D brains are at least superficially analoguous to real-world ones, ask, would this neuron, stimulated in *this* way, stimulate this other neuron in *this other* way? (via Contact other plane)  Assuming 30 billion neurons and 100 means of stimulus, this works out to about 10^25 usages of Contact Other Plane to be able to completely replicate your mind.  So you'll need a pretty large Weird Engine.

Lastly, if you think you can teleport into a volume currently filled by an Ooze, if it is still possible to cohabit the same space, I suppose you could just keep adding fine-sized objects until that is no longer the case.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 12:15:01 PM »
You can never hide anything from Vecna.  Vecna knows all secrets.  Boccob is only slightly easier to trick, because in order to trick him no one can know where it is.  Including you.  But with Vecna, even if no one knows it, even you, it is a secret, so Vecna knows it.  Alternatively, on Boccob, you could argue that any piece of information is knowledge, and therefore Boccob knows literally anything, so there's a chance you can't hide anything from Boccob either.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2012, 12:30:23 PM »
You can never hide anything from Vecna.  Vecna knows all secrets.  Boccob is only slightly easier to trick, because in order to trick him no one can know where it is.  Including you.  But with Vecna, even if no one knows it, even you, it is a secret, so Vecna knows it.  Alternatively, on Boccob, you could argue that any piece of information is knowledge, and therefore Boccob knows literally anything, so there's a chance you can't hide anything from Boccob either.

Note to self: kill vecna.
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Offline Halinn

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2012, 12:31:29 PM »
You can never hide anything from Vecna.  Vecna knows all secrets.  Boccob is only slightly easier to trick, because in order to trick him no one can know where it is.  Including you.  But with Vecna, even if no one knows it, even you, it is a secret, so Vecna knows it.  Alternatively, on Boccob, you could argue that any piece of information is knowledge, and therefore Boccob knows literally anything, so there's a chance you can't hide anything from Boccob either.

Note to self: kill vecna.
Pun-Pun has probably already done it, just in case.

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2012, 01:30:55 PM »
And now you have to deal with Pun-Pun having both the Knowledge and Secrets portfolios, granting him the same abilities.  Good luck!

EDIT: Oh, and all of these deities (except maybe Boccob, if you do it right) know that you are trying to kill them  Again: good luck.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2012, 01:33:19 PM »
And now you have to deal with Pun-Pun having both the Knowledge and Secrets portfolios, granting him the same abilities.  Good luck!

EDIT: Oh, and all of these deities (except maybe Boccob, if you do it right) know that you are trying to kill them  Again: good luck.

Note to self: ask pun-pun to kill all the deities.  make lunch.
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Offline Tohron

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2012, 08:13:01 PM »
You can never hide anything from Vecna.  Vecna knows all secrets.  Boccob is only slightly easier to trick, because in order to trick him no one can know where it is.  Including you.  But with Vecna, even if no one knows it, even you, it is a secret, so Vecna knows it.  Alternatively, on Boccob, you could argue that any piece of information is knowledge, and therefore Boccob knows literally anything, so there's a chance you can't hide anything from Boccob either.

You can't know something when that piece of information doesn't even exist.  And at any time, both your original character, and most of the brain-analogue you made, effectively do not exist.  You could argue that Vecna knew how your brain-analogue worked when it was created, and what each component did whenever it was active afterward (not under the effects of an Oubliette), but each of those "secrets" would be disconnected - and since Vecna has a finite INT score, I doubt he could piece them together into something useful.
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Offline littha

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2012, 08:21:51 PM »
Vecna specifically has 43 Int and his portfolio sense only applies to secrets that affect more than 500 people.

Offline zioth

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2012, 08:33:05 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any protection in your description against a level 1 commoner with an adamantine dagger. Your sphere completely protects against magical attacks, but not against mundane weapons.

How about a really big rock crushing the sphere? How about a portal to the plane of fire right next to the sphere?

Also, you haven't really blocked teleportation with the gelatinous cubes. You exist somewhere in the sphere, so there is some empty space somewhere, for a small enough creature to teleport in.

Offline Tohron

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2012, 08:50:02 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any protection in your description against a level 1 commoner with an adamantine dagger. Your sphere completely protects against magical attacks, but not against mundane weapons.

How about a really big rock crushing the sphere? How about a portal to the plane of fire right next to the sphere?

A Lyre of Building can be used once/day to make a structure completely indestructible for 30 minutes.  There are 48 Lyres of Building inside

Quote
Also, you haven't really blocked teleportation with the gelatinous cubes. You exist somewhere in the sphere, so there is some empty space somewhere, for a small enough creature to teleport in.

There are objects like the brain analogue and the followers in the sphere, but they are stored inside the Gelatinous Cubes, leaving no empty space.  If a contact-other-plane indicates there is empty space in the original design, it is filled.
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Offline dman11235

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2012, 10:25:58 PM »
Vecna specifically has 43 Int and his portfolio sense only applies to secrets that affect more than 500 people.

Really?  I thought his portfolio allowed him to know any secret ever?

Also, not existing is different from being detection proof.  Not existing means you can't do anything (because you don't exist).  So the trick is: how can you exist and be detection proof?
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Offline littha

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2012, 12:56:21 AM »
Vecna specifically has 43 Int and his portfolio sense only applies to secrets that affect more than 500 people.

Really?  I thought his portfolio allowed him to know any secret ever?

Also, not existing is different from being detection proof.  Not existing means you can't do anything (because you don't exist).  So the trick is: how can you exist and be detection proof?

Not according to deities and demigods.

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2012, 07:47:20 AM »
Is that what is used in the SRD?  Because the SRD has Intermediate and greater powered deities sensing their portfolio regardless of the number of people involved, and I thought Vecna was Intermediate?  Or is it different with the Secrets portfolio?
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Offline littha

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Re: The Sphere: Total Invulnerability, Mk II
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2012, 11:14:29 AM »
No idea but the stuff in the SRD is actually from deities and demigods so I assume the book is correct.