Author Topic: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs  (Read 19361 times)

Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2016, 02:18:21 PM »
We can come back to it later. I don't want to get bogged down trying to slowly work through making stances when there's still a lot of easier stuff to do.

Moving on, what do you think of Shifting Steel so far? Also, I'd like to draw your attention to some of the last few maneuvers I added to Crushing Juggernaut (Beatdown, Gatecrasher, Jostle, and Terrorizing Assault), in case you missed and you have any comments.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2016, 03:43:25 PM »
Beatdown makes a nice combo with other manuevers.

I like Gatecrasher.

Jostle is nice, free move and enemy reposition.

Terrorizing Assault is also nice.

Shifting Steel

...you have two level one stances.  The first one seems meh (unless sheathing weapons gives a bonus besides Iajatsu Focus).

I'm getting a Bloodstorm Blade feel out of this school (which is not a bad thing).

How does Advancing Storm interact with thrown weapons?

Haste as a stance, nice.

Ohh, Blurred Alacracity is both nice and thematic.

Spring Attack as a maneuver, makes sense.

I'd like to see some math for Infinte Blade Works vs Mithral Flurry.  IBW just doesn't seem that much better.

After looking at everything the thrown weapons stance now seems out of place.

Sparking Clash is pretty cool!

Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2016, 03:13:03 AM »
Added a few maneuvers (Up The Walls, Magpie Parry, Opportunistic Expertise) and gave names to a couple more (Iron Rain, Harrier's Stance, Deft Repositioning). Moved Mithral Flurry from 7th to 8th level.

Beatdown makes a nice combo with other manuevers.

I like Gatecrasher.

Jostle is nice, free move and enemy reposition.

Note that since you do move (even if it's only 5 feet), you can't take a 5-foot step in the same turn. You can still take a move action or use a rush or do a charge or something, though.

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Terrorizing Assault is also nice.

Shifting Steel

...you have two level one stances.  The first one seems meh (unless sheathing weapons gives a bonus besides Iajatsu Focus).

It's also good for thrown weapons, to let you easily swap weapons to beat DR, or swap between melee and range, but it is pretty niche (like Quick Draw in general). There doesn't seem to be any way of actually sheathing your weapons short of a move action anywhere I've seen outside homebrew, so I definitely want this effect somewhere, even if it's not here. It's good to have an alternative to just dropping your weapons on the floor and coming back for them later after the battle's over, at least at low levels before you sink tons of cash into enchanting an uber weapon and one pointy stick is the same as another.

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I'm getting a Bloodstorm Blade feel out of this school (which is not a bad thing).

It's a very secondary theme, even though all of the maneuvers that directly support it are low level. Many of the maneuvers enhance full attacks and don't care if you use them for melee or ranged attacks.

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How does Advancing Storm interact with thrown weapons?

Thanks for catching that. I'm trying to decide if it should only apply if you attack an enemy you're adjacent to, or if it should push back and let you advance regardless of range.

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Haste as a stance, nice.

Ohh, Blurred Alacracity is both nice and thematic.

Spring Attack as a maneuver, makes sense.

If you mean Dashing Slice, it's not Spring Attack. It's move + attack all in a single move action. You still have your standard action for a strike or whatever.

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I'd like to see some math for Infinte Blade Works vs Mithral Flurry.  IBW just doesn't seem that much better.

Assuming you hit on a 0 (effective AC = your normal attack bonus) and have 4 attacks from BAB, they both average out at a little over 5 hits (MF is 5.15, IBW averages 1.85 misses after the 7th attack). MF benefits more from extra attacks, while IBW benefits more from a higher attack bonus (IBW gets +0.95 hits per additional +2 attack bonus vs. +0.6 hits from MF and dropping as the lower attack bonus attacks catch up). They're both really top-tier maneuvers for a full attacker. I'm definitely moving Mithral Flurry from 7th to 8th level, though. Note that under those same circumstances, a full attack has 2.65 hits, so Time Stands Still (DM 9, do 2 full attacks) gives 5.3 hits on average and is more flexible with a greater effect from extra attacks or with a lower attack bonus than IBW and getting more than MF from a higher attack bonus.

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After looking at everything the thrown weapons stance now seems out of place.

I'm not wedded to the throwing stuff being part of Shifting Steel. It was always a secondary thing, even in the original draft, mostly there to fill out the discipline where boosts were lacking (by which I mean that those two were the only two boosts I came up with at the time).

Speaking of which, got any ideas for boosts? If the throwers go away, there's only one other boost left (1 round Haste).

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Sparking Clash is pretty cool!

That's what I was going for. :)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 03:17:33 AM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2016, 01:46:29 PM »
I'd be fine with Advancing Storm going either way.

I missed that Dashing Slice was a rush, that makes it even better.

Moving Mithral Flurry up to 8 sounds like a good solution.  I see what you're saying, they're good for different builds (which I didn't really think about).

Magpie Parry looks fine, kneejerk reaction is that it's too high level though.

Opportunistic Expertise looks good.

Up the Walls looks fine.


I can't think of any boosts, but apparently my solution to that was to start coming up with even more thrown weapons maneuvers...


Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2016, 02:48:30 PM »
Magpie Parry looks fine, kneejerk reaction is that it's too high level though.

Compare to Manticore Parry and Scorpion Parry, both at level 6 and both redirecting an attack against you towards another creature. Magpie Parry doesn't just negate an attack, it can cripple a full attack, forcing your attacker to either abort after the first attack and use their move action to pick up their weapon and provoke an AoO, or continue on with whatever weapon they were planning on using in their off-hand or with unarmed strikes (which will provoke an AoO without Improved Unarmed Strike).

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2016, 05:35:10 PM »
In that case it's fine.  I'm not familiar enough with ToB to remember what existing maneuvers there are for comparison.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2016, 06:45:15 PM »
In that case it's fine.  I'm not familiar enough with ToB to remember what existing maneuvers there are for comparison.

Simply negating an attack with imperfect reliability shows up a lot in various forms for level 1-4 counters (Shield Block, Wall of Blades, Baffling Defense, Zephyr Dance, the Diamond Mind save replacers), as does counterattacking in some form (Fire Riposte, Feigned Opening). Combining a defense with an offensive application doesn't show up until level 6-8 counters (Scorpion Parry, Manticore Parry, Shield Counter, Fool's Strike).
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 01:26:18 AM by Garryl »

Offline bhu

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2016, 07:58:56 PM »
 :love

Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2016, 02:22:38 AM »
Shifting Steel is complete. Finished off the last couple of maneuvers (Unbalancing Strike, Rupturing Lunge, Moment of Alacrity), named the ones that were missing names (Torrent of Steel, Battle Dancer), and removed the 1st level quick draw/sheathe stance. Also, finished the discipline weapon list.

Also, added Axiomatic Might and Inevitable Pursuit (a carbon copy of Setting Sun's Mirrored Pursuit, unfortunately) to Mechanus Hand.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 02:24:59 AM by Garryl »

Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2016, 03:41:16 AM »
Finished some more Mechanus Hand maneuvers: Foot Locker, Pithing Strike, Wholeness Rightly Assumed, Absolute Restraint, Arcane Denial.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2016, 10:44:37 AM »
Shifting Steel

New maneuvers look fine.


Mechanus Hand

Absolute Restraint - I'd add "(including purely mental actions)" to the text if that's the intent, just for clarification.

Arcane Denial - I assume it also blocks friendly spells?

Arresting Blow - See Absolute Restraint

Axiomatic Might - For a level 8 stance this feels pretty weak.

Pithing Strike - It's powerful but that's some extreme separation of abilities in the list so it's probably okay.

Wholeness Rightly Assumed - No hp healing?  I ask because of the flavor text.


Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2016, 03:51:01 PM »
Shifting Steel

New maneuvers look fine.


Mechanus Hand

Absolute Restraint - I'd add "(including purely mental actions)" to the text if that's the intent, just for clarification.

Arresting Blow - See Absolute Restraint

Fair enough. Clarification incoming.

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Arcane Denial - I assume it also blocks friendly spells?

Yep, even your own spells get blocked, including personal spells (they still have a target, "You", and the stance blocks anything from targeting you). Clarification incoming.

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Axiomatic Might - For a level 8 stance this feels pretty weak.

Yeah, DR stances are in an awkward spot. The nearest comparison is Supreme Blade Parry (IH8, DR 5/flat-footed), but it is similarly on the weak side of things. On one hand, I don't want to go around making strictly better versions of existing maneuvers, but on the other hand I do want things to be appropriately powerful for what their level actually entails. I'm considering dropping it to 6th level (and possibly moving Arcane Denial up to 6th so both stances are at the same level) and coming up with another level 8 stance. That, or I could just rewrite it... which is effectively the same as writing a new level 8 stance anyways.

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Pithing Strike - It's powerful but that's some extreme separation of abilities in the list so it's probably okay.

For 1 level higher and without the 2d6 bonus damage, you get 1 round of no action at all on a failed save (Arresting Blow here, but also Dazing Strike in IH and Disrupting Blow in DM).

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Wholeness Rightly Assumed - No hp healing?  I ask because of the flavor text.

I was originally going to include that. I think I'll put it back in.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2016, 05:08:11 PM »
I'm against multiple stances at the same level for the same school.

You could move Axiomatic Might to a lower level stance and have scaling benefits including DR (apparently I'm going to keep bringing up scaling benefits stances), or you could leave it as it is and "become an inevitable" (fluff wise). 

DR 5/Chaotic, Fast healing that doesn't heal chaotic damage (maybe capped), SR, and the existing lawful-aligned weapon text.

That might be too much.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2016, 05:46:58 PM »
I'm against multiple stances at the same level for the same school.

Any particular reason? I don't see any problem with it, and the ToB disciplines do it a lot.
- WR1: Leading the Charge, Bolstering Voice
- TC1: Blood in the Water, Hunter's Sense
- TC3: Leaping Dragon Stance, Wolverine Stance
- SD3: Crushing Weight of the Mountain, Roots of the Mountain
- SH1: Island of Blades, Child of Shadow
- DS1: Iron Guard's Glare, Martial Spirit
- DS6: The four alignment stances (which, interestingly, don't require you to have any particular alignment)

Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and Setting Sun don't have any levels with 2+ stances.

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You could move Axiomatic Might to a lower level stance and have scaling benefits including DR (apparently I'm going to keep bringing up scaling benefits stances), or you could leave it as it is and "become an inevitable" (fluff wise). 

DR 5/Chaotic, Fast healing that doesn't heal chaotic damage (maybe capped), SR, and the existing lawful-aligned weapon text.

That might be too much.

Yeah, a little bit much.

I've noticed that ToB stances don't scale in raw power all that much with level. Yes, the higher level stances are generally more powerful than lower level ones, but when they do numbers things it's usually not by much. For example, +1d6 damage and -2 AC at 1st, +2d6 Sneak Attack at 3rd, +1 size category for damage (max Large) at 5th, and +1d6 fire damage at 6th. For DR, you get DR 2/- (and +10 to avoid being moved and -10 to enemy Tumble) at 3rd, and DR 5/flat-footed (and no extras) at 8th. They tend to get more versatile at higher levels, rather than strictly more powerful, although where versatility is the power the higher levels do tend to outshine the lower level stances (for example, with Shadow Hand's trio of movement-related stances).

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2016, 06:03:37 PM »
Multiple stances per level just annoy me, there's already an issue with too many choices (and most homebrew disciplines that I've seen don't do it).  If you do it I won't complain or anything, just voicing my opinion.

Ahh, okay.  You're basing things off of the official disciplines whereas I'm taking all the homebrew that I've looked at into account. That does make a difference.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2016, 06:51:37 PM »
I've got two more mostly complete Mechanus Hand maneuvers. For Spellshatter, I can't decide on the level (somewhere around 6th, possibly 5th or 7th). For Mechanus's Armory, I'm just not sure about whether or not to keep the DR. Having mellowed a bit and checked on some of my previous homebrew that I remember being satisfied with that had a similar ability, I'm happy to go either way. Note that if it keeps the DR, Mechanus's Armory would be replacing Axiomatic Might entirely. Axiomatic Might is getting a redesign or removal either way.

Edit: I'm a bit less stoked about Mechanus's Armory now than when I first wrote it.



Spellshatter
Mechanus Hand (Strike)
Level: Clockwork Warrior ...
Prerequisite: ... Mechanus Hand maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One object, creature, or space
Duration: Instantaneous
As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. Resolve this attack as though both you and your target were affected by an anti-magic field. If you attack a target that would wink out or cease to exist within an anti-magic field, such as a summoned or incorporeal creature, resolve your attack as though it did not.

If your attack hits, you make a dispel check (1d20 + your initiator level) against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by a summon monster spell), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Alternatively, you can use this maneuver to attack a specific space. You make an attack roll against AC 5. Any modifiers to your attack or to a target's Armor Class resulting from attacking the chosen space, such as cover and concealment, apply. If your attack hits, you make a dispel check, as described above, against each ongoing emanation spell whose area includes that space, dispelling it if you are successful. This attack does not affect any creatures or objects occupying the targeted space.



Mechanus's Armory
Mechanus Hand (Stance)
Level: Clockwork Warrior 3
Prerequisite: Two Mechanus Hand maneuvers, non-chaotic alignment
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While you are in this stance, your equipment is bolstered by the axiomatic power of the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus. Any weapons, armor, or shields you wield gain an enhancement bonus, determined by your Climb ranks. Additionally, your natural weapons and any weapons you wield are considered lawful-aligned and thus bypass the corresponding damage reduction. Finally, any armor you wear or shield you wield grants you DR/chaotic equal to its enhancement bonus (if you are wearing armor and wielding a shield, they don't stack; use only the highest value).

Climb RanksEnhancement Bonus
7-10+1
11-14+2
15-18+3
19-22+4
23++5

This stance is a supernatural ability.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 08:26:01 PM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2016, 11:23:14 PM »
Spellshatter seems fine but right now I don't have any ideas as to level.

Mechanus's Armory: What happens if the equipment already has an enhancement bonus?

Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2016, 11:56:26 PM »
Mechanus's Armory: What happens if the equipment already has an enhancement bonus?

Same deal as with Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and any other case of multiple bonuses of the same type. They don't stack and only the highest one applies.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2016, 12:53:48 PM »
Mechanus's Armory: What happens if the equipment already has an enhancement bonus?

Same deal as with Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and any other case of multiple bonuses of the same type. They don't stack and only the highest one applies.

And what are your concerns with it?

Offline Garryl

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Re: Gears of War: Tome of Battle for Constructs
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2016, 03:26:44 PM »
Mechanus's Armory: What happens if the equipment already has an enhancement bonus?

Same deal as with Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and any other case of multiple bonuses of the same type. They don't stack and only the highest one applies.

And what are your concerns with it?

As I said, I'm not sure about keeping the DR or not. It's probably fine with just the enhancement bonus part, but I wanted a second opinion.