Author Topic: DavidWL's archive of randomness  (Read 20844 times)

Offline DavidWL

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DavidWL's archive of randomness
« on: November 25, 2011, 01:05:42 AM »
My Signature:

Quote from: Roxlimn and Kreselak
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / Skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.

Organizing the following posts in this thread:
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:11:12 AM by DavidWL »

Offline DavidWL

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Casting Chameleon - "toned down"
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 01:06:37 AM »
Here's an update on my chameleon multi-threat, assuming a looser rule-set (LA Buyoff, Flaws, Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle). 
  • Added Quor Bred (+4 Int, 2 DCFS feats, Int to DCs, a few other perks). 
  • Added Heirophant for Supernatural Transformation(Miracle). 
  • Added 2 levels of bloodlines. 
  • Added Initaite of mystra.
  • Added that this became a necropolitan created with Desecrate plus evil altar + Undead Mastery class feature.  (Assuming no corpsecrafter feats to be "conservative")
  • Spellstiched ... just because

A Skill monkey Casting Chameleon

Race: Quor Bred Illumian (Naen-Hoon), Good/Neutral, Venerable, Intermediate Air Bloodline, taken at 2nd and 3rd. (costing 3K exp), necropolitan at 3rd level (costing 3K exp).

Build: Factotum 1/Generic Spellcaster(Divine) 1/Generic Spellcaster(Arcane) 1/Chameleon 10/Hieorphant 1/Generic Spellcaster(Divine) +2/Factotum 2-3/Crusader 2

Feats:
Code: [Select]
Level Name Source Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle 12th level
1 Able Learner Level
1 Keen Intellect Flaw
1 Academic Priest Flaw
1 Hostile Mind Template Extra Slot
1 Mental Resistance Template Extra Slot
2 Insightful Reflexes Class
3 Spell Mastery Class
3 Uncanny Forethought Level
4 Improved Initiative Bloodline Persistent Spell
6 Leadership Level
9 Planar Touchstone Level
12 Earth Spell Level Versatile Spell
12 Weapon Finess Bloodline Extra Slot
15 Supernatural Transformation Level
18 Initiate of Mystra Level
20 Flyby Attack Bloodline

Leadership = Dvati Fiend of Possession / Corruption
Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment = planning -> Extend)
Supernatural Transformation (Miracle)

Stats: ~D12 + 4, 11 Maxed Skills.  Init: +38.  BAB: 12.  Saves: F: 33  R: 31  W: 36.
-- Assuming Arcane and Divine Focus chosen, and Demand Fortitude & Motivate Dex with cohort.  This is before most equipment and before magic.  215 HP, 284 Skill points including Int and racial bonus

Attributes , Int = 56!:
(click to show/hide)

Rules Notes:
  • Extra Slot – Advances Chameleon casting.  Using planar touchstone to qualify for the higher-level slot (Extra Slot: “up to one level lower than the highest level spell you can currently cast”).  (Catalogues of Enlightenment: “Once per day you may cast a spell from the cleric domain you had chosen as though you had prepared the spell normally.  You must be of sufficient character level to cast the spell and have Wisdom equal to the spell level + 10.”).  I first saw this here.
  • Assumes Generic Spellcaster (Arcane) can qualify for the spell mastery feat.
  • Uses the "Spell-Like Ability" of the Heirophant combined with the Supernatural Transformation feat to get Miracle as a Supernatural ability twice per day.
  • Uses DCFS to: 1)  Turn the templates and bloodline bonus feats into useful things, and 2)  delay feats to times that are more useful.  Note that we temporarily turn feats to Earth sense / Earth spell / Heighten to qualify for "Extra Slot" at next level, then after we have the extra slots, reform back to original feats, with a Versatile spell + extra slot qualifying for the old extra slot.
  • Bloodline to have early qualification for Chameleon, making him more powerful sooner, also giving +2 to level-dependent abilities

Key Points:
  • 3 Extra Slots w/ Planar Touchstone and DCFS + Earth Spell=> 9th level spells as a Chameleon
  • 56 Int, Academic Priest, Quor Bred Template => lots of bonus spells per day both arcane and divine, amazing Arcane and Divine spell DCs
  • Aura of Perfect Order [Stance]=> Take 11 on any skill check, save, caster level check, etc.  It makes him an even more impressive skill monkey, caster, and much tougher.  Once/rnd.
  • Uncanny Forethought => spontaneously cast any spell known at the cost of a move action 23 times per day (~ all 8th and 9th level spells, both arcane and divine).
  • 56 Int, Factotum 3, Keen Intellect => +23 (at least) to all but Charisma skills (which the Fiend of possession focuses on).
  • Spell-like ability + Supernatural Transformation => at the cost of 1 9th level divine slot, can cast 2 Miracles as supernatural spells once per day.  Note that this allows for emulation of psychic reformation, so that we can swap feats as needed to use item crafting as needed.
  • Spellstiched ... just because
  • Iniatiate of Mystra => Never unprepared
  • Naen hoon -> cast 1 extended persistent spell per day
  • Base CL = 2*(10 Chameleon + 2 bloodline) + 1 heirophant = 25
  • Undead immunities
  • Factotum 1: Cunning Insight: 3 times per encounter add Int to save, attack or damage
  • Quorbred: Closed Mind:  level check of 40 to effect by divination
  • Quorbred: Power Resistance 31
  • Quorbred: Disruptive Strike: DC 43 vs. unable to use spells/psionics/spell-likes when hit

Cohorts:
(click to show/hide)

Other Details
(click to show/hide)

Equipment Sketch - most items selected from Bunko's Bargain Basement.  Right now ~ 175K gold over budget.
(click to show/hide)

Yet to Be Done:
Equipment, tactics by Level

Best
David
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 05:02:14 AM by DavidWL »

Offline DavidWL

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Classic Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 01:06:44 AM »
Quote from: psly4mne
I see a few possible incantatrix builds. Two stand out as the best.
Illus 5/ScM 5/Inx 10
Illus 3/MS 4/ScM 5/Inx 7/Nightmare Spinner 1
Lots of variations on these can also work.

I completely agree with you psly4mne.  I'm sort of surprised that I don't really see what I think of a "classic" shadowcraft mage here, so here's my attempt:

Classic Shadowcraft Mage

Race: Gnome
Build: Wizard 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Incantrix 10
Feats:  Iron Will, Spell Focus (Illusion), Heighten, Signature Spell (Silent Image), Extend [Incantrix], Residual Metamagic, Earth Sense, Persistent [Incantrix], Earth Spell, Quicken [Incantrix], Arcane Thesis (Silent Image), Chain [Incantrix]
Options:  Gnome Substitution Levels 1, Chains of Disbelief and Illusion Mastery illusionist variants.
Schools Given up:  For Specializing: Enchantment and Evocation.  For Incantrix: Necromancy

1 - Illusionist 1 Iron Will, Gnome Substitution Level, Chains of Disbelief and Illusion Mastery illusionist variants
2 - Illusionist 2
3 - Illusionist 3 Spell Focus (Illusion)
4 - Illusionist 4
5 - Illusionist 5 Heighten
6 - Incantrix 1 Signature Spell (Silent Image), Extend [Incantrix]
7 - Incantrix 2
8 - Shadowcraft Mage 1
9 - Shadowcraft Mage 2 Residual Metamagic
10 - Shadowcraft Mage 3
11 - Shadowcraft Mage 4
12 - Shadowcraft Mage 5 Earth Sense
13 - Incantrix 3
14 - Incantrix 4 Persistent [Incantrix]
15 - Incantrix 5 Earth Spell
16 - Incantrix 6
17 - Incantrix 7 Quicken [Incantrix]
18 - Incantrix 8 Arcane Thesis (Silent Image)
19 - Incantrix 9
20 - Incantrix 10 Chain [Incantrix]

Option Summary:
  • Gnome Illusionist Substitution Level 1 - Loses 1 CL to transmutation spells. Gives lower level illusion spells.
  • Variant Wizard: Chains of Disbelief (Ex) - Loses familiar.  Must save vs. illusion.
  • Variant Wizard: Illusion Mastery (Ex) - Loses specialist additional spells per day.  Automastered illusion spells

The character starts to get some real power at Level 10 (like most shadowcraft mage builds).  With Incantrix 10, Earth Spell, and Shadowcraft mage => +40% reality.

The last Incantrix metamagic feat choices are largely optional.  I went for generalist picks, but if you focused more on the illusionist, you might do other things.  Chain, Extend, and Quicken are good in general - for the Shadowcraft mage as well.  Persistent for the Incantrix.

Basically, the beauty of the build is that it manages to fit in most of the shadowcraft mage tricks into one build (decent extra reality, arcane thesis, gnome and wiz. variant trickery) while still keeping fundamentally functional as a general wizard with full Incantrix goodness.

In short, we prepare all spells as normal, and can spontaneously use any spell slot to cast a heightened silent image, which will be 2 levels higher than normal "for free".  This can then be converted to a shadow evocation/conjuration with an extra 20% reality "for free".  We also get an extra -2 to the cost of "normal" metamagic, meaning it can be (twice) extended for free, quickened at a cost of +2, chained at a cost of +1.  The following round, we can do this again, but because of residual metamagic, we only have to use a 0th level spellslot (cantrip) to get the heightened spell cast the previous round.  This is on top of all the incantatrix and illusion goodness.

I can't claim that I "created" anything new ... but I hope it is a nice compilation of pre-existing thought.  Feedback Much Appreciated

If there was access to flaws, we could fit in the 5th level Gnome Substitution Level, making him a very effective illusionist.  2nd pick could be anything (Rapid Metamagic, Extraordinary Concentration, Arcane mastery, Mobile Spellcasting, focused specialist, ...)

Best
David

EDIT:  Edited with feedback from mercury529 and Irian - thank you for the help.
EDIT:  Edited with feedback from mercury529 and Irian yet again :)  I really appreciate it guys.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:34:12 AM by DavidWL »

Offline DavidWL

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Spirit Shaman
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 01:06:52 AM »
Ok, here's the evolved build:

Spirit Shaman of Eternity

Race:  Old Necropolitan (Deathless) Illumian (Naenhoon)
Build: Spirit Shaman 6/ Sovereign Speaker 5/Hathran 6/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 2
Progression: Spirit Shaman 5/Sovereign Speaker 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Hathran 6/Contemplative 2/Sovereign Speaker 2/Spirit Shaman 1/
Feats: Ethran, Apprentice (Spellcaster), Dynamic Priest, Worldly Focus, Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planning -> extend), Persistent, Leadership (Fiend of Possession), Ancestral Relic, any.  2 Flaws.
Domains:  Spell, Charm, Fire, Luck, Time, any 1
Attributes: 25 point buy, 38 Charisma (42 w/ Charm domain power active):
(click to show/hide)

1: Spirit Shaman 1  Ethran, Apprentice (Spellcaster), Dynamic Priest
2: Spirit Shaman 2
3: Spirit Shaman 3  Worldly Focus
4: Spirit Shaman 4
5: Spirit Shaman 5
6: Sovereign Speaker 1  Planar Touchstone (The Catalogues of Enlightenment(Planning/Rune))
7: Sovereign Speaker 2
8: Sovereign Speaker 3
9: Sacred Exorcist 1  Persistent
10: Contemplative 1
11: Contemplative 2
12: Hathran 1  Leadership
13: Hathran 2   
14: Hathran 3
15: Hathran 4  Ancestral Relic
16: Hathran 5
17: Hathran 6
18: Sovereign Speaker 4 [Any – Flyby Attack, Mobile Spellcasting, Undead Leadership, Chain, …]
19: Sovereign Speaker 5
20: Spirit Shaman 6

The theme is cool casting: 
  • Spirit shaman for a cool mix of spontaneous/prepared casting at Caster Level 19. 
  • Spontaneous casting of anyspell, greater anyspell, and Miracle
  • The ability to teleport back and/or Master Earth back to Rashemen and use Rashemi Spirit Magic. 
  • Takes Use Magic Device as a cross-class skill for respectable skill check totals given high Charisma and the raised UMD cap from Apprentice
  • Universal spirit magic (a couple of times per day)
  • Can cast 1 chosen spell per day outside of spells recalled based on the Apprentice feat.

For Power: 
  • We have access to NaenHoon divine metamagic (2 Extended Persistent spells per day OR potentially 1 extended persistent chain spell and 1 extended chain spell). 
  • Circle magic is mixed in just because it is so darn powerful (Caster Level 40?  Free maximize, empower or heighten?  Sign me up!  This also helps complement persistent castings, making them virtually impossible to dispel.).  The indirect cohorts from Apprentice fuel this.

Other Bennies
  • Ancestral Relic – With Ancestral Relic, you can buy/find scrolls, learn the spells, and then sacrifice the scrolls for other gear of your choice.  When you get stuff, if you sacrifice it directly, you don’t “lose” gp value because you need to sell it.  Also, this helps balance the fact that you don’t (and can’t) have almost any item crafting feats but for scribe scroll.
  • Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) gives Rune domain – scribe scroll (during down time) and Planning Domain – Extend Spell (when adventuring)
  • Charm Domain gives +4 to Cha (untyped) for extra spell slots and higher DC for a brief period each day, along with more Turn Undead uses.
  • Detect Spirits at will
  • Protection from spirits at will
  • Ghost Warrior -> normal AC and attacks vs. incorporeal
  • Rebuke Fire creatures (including some dragons and outsiders with the fire subtype)

Best,
David
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:17:43 AM by DavidWL »

Offline DavidWL

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Beguiler
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2011, 01:06:59 AM »
This is more of a build sketch and thoughts about the beguiler:

Basic Beguiler Build Sketch

Race: Gnome
Bonus Feats: Heighten Spell, Versatile Caster
Flaws: Pathetic, Vulnerable
1) Beguiler 1        Spell Focus (Illusion)
2) Beguiler 2
3) Beguiler 3      Skill Focus (Religion), advanced learning: net of shadows
4) Beguiler 4
5) Beguiler 5       Silent Spell (B)
6) Mind Bender 1    Mindsight
7) Dinive Oracle 1   
8 ) Divine Oracle 2   
9) Shadowcraft Mage 1   Residual Metamagic
10) Shadowcraft Mage 2
11) Shadowcraft Mage 3   
12) Shadowcraft Mage 4   Rapid Metamagic
13) Shadowcraft Mage 5
14) Divine Oracle 3   
15) Shadow Adept 1   Shadow Weave Magic, Insidious Magic(B), Pernicious Magic(B), Tenacious Magic(B)
16) Beguiler 6
17) Beguiler 7      advanced learning: invisibility superior       
18) Divine Oracle 4   Arcane Thesis (Silent Image)
19) Wyrm Wizard 1
20) Wyrm Wizard 2    expanded knowledge: Miracle (for awesomeness)

Note that this is a pretty tough fellow for a spellcaster:
  • Mindsight makes him hard to surprise
  • Shadowcraft mage => 40% miss chance
  • Can wear light armor
  • Invisibility Superior + Insidious Magic is super cool
  • Divine Oracle for evasion+

- this assumes that heightened shadow spells can help you qualify for shadowcrafter, and that heightened spells with versatile spellcaster count as spells of the next level, and so give you access to spells of that level.
- also, I'm not sure, but I think you can qualify for prestige classes with feats that you get at the same time you get the class?  (I believe it isn't so with skill points).
- finally, I'd like to fit in prestige bard, but really don't want to give up the caster level.  It is most useful earlier on (for the extra spells), but also costs too much ... that would be even more pure awesome.  We could lose Divine Oracle 4 for Prestige Bard 1, but the problem is that this would delay getting large-quantity casting of 9th level spells until 20th level (instead of at 18th), which isn't cool.


****COMMENTS
- shadowcraft mage smooths out the roughness that a beguiler starts seeing at the 5th levels spells (which are very mediocre)
- Wyrm Wizard for Miracle is awesomeness, and has the benefit that it just doesn't cost that much!
- has decent spell access with Beguiler + shadowcraft mage + miracle (albeit this doesn't kick in until late).
- heighten + versatile spellcaster (raw) gives access to spells of 1 level higher than normal at the cost of 2 lower level slots.  Putting him 1 level earlier than a wizard, rather than later (albeit at high cost).

****ROLES
Face
Trapmonkey
Scout / Diviner
Battlefield Control

Thoughts about the beguiler

I think measuring whether one class is better than another depends a lot on the level at which you are talking:

Example:

@ Level 1
Sorcerer spells known 2
- Possibly color spray or grease or sleep
- 1 other

Beguiler spells known 14! (many of the first rate spells)
- charm person, color spray, mage armor, obscuring mist, sleep, silent image  ... !

@ Level 4
Sorcerer knows 4 spells
- Grease, Color Spray, Sleep
- Alter Self

Beguiler knows 31 spells!
- charm person, color spray, mage armor, obscuring mist, sleep, silent image  ... !
- mirror image, fog cloud, touch of idiocy, minor image, silence ...

@ Level 8
Sorcerer (a random assortment of good picks - I used this thread to pick spells- http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=571861)
lvl1- Color Spray, Grease, Silent Image, Enlarge, Ray of Enfeeblement
lvl2- Alter Self, Rope Trick, Wings of Cover
lvl3- Haste, Dispel Magic
lvl4- Polymorph

Beguiler:
lvl1- Color Spray, Charm Person, Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist, Silent Image, Sleep,  ... 7 others
lvl2- glitterdust, fog cloud, invisibility, mirror image, minor image, detect thoughts,  13 others
lvl3- Haste, Dispel Magic (the spells the sorcerer might pick) + 18 others
lvl4- Solid Fog, Charm Monster, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisiblity, Greater Mirror Image, + 7 more

The beguiler is really much better than the sorcerer until about 11th level, just because it knows many more good spells.

My estimate:
Levels
1 - 7  Beguiler >> Sorcerer
8- 10 Beguiler > Sorcerer
11 - 15 Beguiler < Sorcerer
16 - 20 Begulier ~ Socerer (especially with the versatile caster trick)

At the higher levels (~11 - 20), the beguiler still has more flexibility because of a much larger list of spells known, but the sorcerer starts to edge ahead in power because of the greater range of spells that he can choose to learn (Celerity, Arcane Spellsurge, Polymorph, ...).  However, this doesn't really start to be felt until 8th level (with Polymorph), and it still takes a few levels past that for the sorcerer to catch up.

The "problem" with the beguiler as compared to the sorcerer starts at the 5th level spells.  The beguilers list is mediocre, the sorcerers list is quite good.  Later, at 7th level spells the sorcerer gets arcane spellsurge, doubling the spells he can cast.  8th level gives greater arcane fusion, letting the sorcerer really spam spells and move up on the power curve quite a lot (although not on the versatility curve).

When a beguiler gains a new level of spells, it gains *all* it's new spells.

For example, at level 18:
A sorcerer gains 1 9th level spell known.  (Timestop or Shapechange)

A beguiler gains 6 9th level spells.  (Not only the timestop that the sorcerer might get, but also Dominate Monster for a pet, Foresight, etc.)

Because the beguiler doesn't give up spells known after 18th level, he can also do things like:

Beguiler 18/Wyrm Wizard 2, using Wyrm Wizard to learn Miracle.  He'll still know that massive list of spells.
Beguiler 18/Saint +2
Beguiler 19/Nightmare spinner (for extra spells slots).
Beguiler 18/Prestige Bard 1/Sandshaper 1
etc.

Good dips for a beguiler:
  • Mindbender 1 + Mindsight
  • Shadow Adept 1
  • Wyrm Wizard 2 (high level dip)
  • Nightmare Spinner 1 (high level dip)
  • Divine Oracle 3 (makes you a wonderful diviner, along with making you tougher)
  • shadowcraft mage 5

****WOULD BE NICE:
Greater Anyspell
Arcane Spellsurge
Arcane Fusion, Greater
Celerity

Incantatrix / Ultimate Magus for feats / spells / Sculpt Spell

****ALTERNATIVES
Recaster - gives any 2 spells, perks, costs 1 CL
Mage of the Arcane Order PrC
Divine Oracle 3
Retributive Spell (although you shouldn't be in combat)
1 level of prestige bard

Just some thoughts.

Best,
David
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:17:55 AM by DavidWL »

Offline DavidWL

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Misc Build Ideas
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2011, 01:07:06 AM »
Miscellaneous Build Notes / Ideas:

Buffer / Summoner to buff the summons
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Halruaan Elder 5
  • Easy/Practical Metamagic (Chain)
  • Adroit Casting (Chain)
  • Adroit Casting (Reach Spell)
  • Can chain / reach spells for free
  • A repeat/Twin version is also a good spell spammer

Anima Mage
Binder 1/Wiz 1/Anima Mage 10/Legacy Champion 8
  • Feats: Ignore Special Requirements, Precocious Apprentice, Improved Binding, Extend, Persistent, Leadership, Flyby Attack, Chain?

Crusader / Ruby Knight Vindicator / Master of Nine
Swordsage 1/Cleric 1/Monk 1/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Master of Nine 5/
  • Cleric 1 - Darkness domain (Blind-Fight), Time domain (Improved Initiative)
  • Cobra Strike Monk 1 (UA/SRD) - Dodge and Improved Unarmed Strike

Cool casting mechanic Dual caster
Illumian: Marshall 1 (Motivate Dex)/Sha'ir 1/ Spirit Shaman 1/Mystic Theurge 17

Iconic tough bone knight build (not mine)
Paladin of Slaughter 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 2/Bone Knight 10/Blackguard 2/(Something 1)
  • it would be nice to fit feat rogue 2 in that build ... perhaps instead of Blackguard. 

Eventually do something with a Keeper
  • dipping in rewarding classes to get tough fast.
  • work on synergy to build offensive power
  • ~Feat Rogue 2, Monk 2, Hexblade 3, Paladin Variant 2, Warblade 2, Crusader 2, etc.

Thoughts on Spirit Shaman
  • many of the things having to do with expanding the spell list are similar to the beguiler certainly miracle and anyspell are amazing additions.  This is already in my build.
  • Nice Dips:  Divine Oracle 3, Contemplative 2
  • Walker in the waste is nice for it's charisma synergy and general awesomeness
  • prestige paladin 2 would give cha to saves at the cost of caster level

Marshall/Bard Buffer
Spellscale
Dvati

Bloodline: 3 (Progressing IL)
Marshall 2/Crusader 2/Reikhardt 10/Heartfire Fanner 5/Dragon Lord 1/

Feats
   * Negotiator
   * Skill Focus (perform)
   * Song of the Heart
   * Words of Creation
   * Lingering Song
   * Draconic Aura
   * Double Draconic Aura
ITEMS

   * Rearguard's Cape
   * Badge of Valor
   * Helm of Tactics
   * Horn of Resilience
   * Vest of Legends
   * Harmonizing Weapon
   * Crown of White Raven

2 Auras from Marshall
2 Draconic Auras
X Bard Songs (Inpsire Courage / Greatness/ Inspired Fight)
A little White Raven goodness
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 03:00:41 AM by DavidWL »

Offline DavidWL

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Possession Chains with Fiends of Yak Folk
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2011, 01:07:13 AM »
The basic Idea:

Succubi Fiend of Possession
      - who possesses (and can use all abilities, feats, and skills of):
Yak Folk attribute junkie (Undead Leadership Cohort)
      - who possesses (and can use physical abilities, feats, skills, exceptional abilities of):
Human Jordain Vizier dipper (Leadership Cohort)

1 - Fiend
Build:
  • Succubus 6 + 6 LA (1 LA bought off)/Fiend of Possession 6/Marshall 1/Warblade 1

Attributes:
  • High Mental Attributes (CHA & INT)

Feats:
  • Undead Leadership (for yak folk)
  • leadership (for jordain vizier)
  • Mindsight
  • Dreamtelling
  • 2 free feats

Notes:
  • Warblade for saves and Iron Heart Surge
  • Fiend of Possession goodness
  • Motivate Dex, Motivate Int => Cha to Init, Dex rolls (default)

2 - Necropolitan Yak Folk w/ LA buyoff
Build:
  • Yak Folk 5 (2 LA bought off)/Paladin of Freedom 2/Hexblade 3/Marshall 2/Fighter 2/Blackguard 2/warblade 1/

Attributes:
  • High Mental Attributes (INT & CHA) - but doesn't matter that much

Feats:
  • 5 free feats
  • Cleave
  • Improved Sunder
  • Power Attack

Notes:
  • BAB = 16
  • Cha*~3 to saves
  • Mettle

3 - Human Jordain Vizier
Build:
  • Feat Rogue 2/Monk 2/Jordain Vizier 5/Chameleon 2/Sorcerer 1/Factotum 3/Arcane Duelist 2

Attributes:
  • High Physical Attributes (CON)

Feats:
  • 4 feats
  • Able Learner
  • Aesthetic Mage
  • spellwise
  • iron will
  • Dodge
  • Mobility
  • 2 fighter feats
  • 1 floating feat

Notes:   
  • Evasion
  • Spell Reflection sub level for evasion for monk
  • Cha *2 to AC
  • Mimic (EoE, p 21): lose trapfinding, gain disguise self
  • Trapfinding
  • Floating Feat
  • Cha to Saves vs spells
  • Int to Dex/Con/Str rolls

Overall Summary
- extremely tough
  • Cha * 4? to saves (some abilities may overlap rather than stack - need to check)
  • Cha * 2 to AC
  • Cha * 1 to Init
  • Int * 1 to Init
  • High HP through CON focus in Human
  • Evasion, Mettle, Spell Reflection
  • iron heart surge

- good skillmonkey
  • massive skill points between the three (all of which can overlap)
  • Eidetic Memory
  • *2 Wis bonus for skills
  • +Int bonus to Dex/Str/Con skills & ability rolls
  • Trapfinding
  • Mimic
  • Able Learner

- Great oracle / scout
  • Dreamtelling
  • Fiend of possession can scout
  • *2 Int to knowledge skills
  • Telepathy / Mindsight

- Dangerous in Combat
  • BAB 16
  • 5 set fighter feats
  • 2 free fighter feats
  • 11 free feats
  • 2 Warblade Dips
   => Nasty Feat Chains and some ToB trickiness

- Also, many other misc. abilities

Feedback Appreciated. 

All books are fair game.  Unless it is pure awesomeness, I'd like to keep it as legal and unquestionable as possible - as it is, the interpretation is difficult with the double possession. This isn't for play, but just a build for fun.

Within the constraints of the double possession, I'm willing to look at changing almost anything.  The trick is to get lots of cool feats and exceptional abilities in the Human, and lots of cool anything in the yak folk.  Ideally, these abilities would somehow synergize.  My goal is to take utmost advantage of the cascading possessions.

For example, the Int and Cha based abilities of the yak folk and human are driven by the charisma and intelligence of the succubus.  Likewise, we can build more awesome feat chains by using the feats between the 3 builds (for practical purposes, the last 2 builds, as it stands now).

This is the beginning of my first stab.  I think all is legit.  I used a number of alternate class features and LA Buyoff.  Thoughts on making the builds more optimal is very desired.

Very Best,
David
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:18:37 AM by DavidWL »

Offline DavidWL

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Sam the Commoner
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2011, 01:07:20 AM »
Sam the commoner:

Attribute:  24 point buy.  Str 8, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 16, Cha 14, Wis 8
Skills: UMD, Handle Animal, Diplomacy, Lucid Dreaming, ...
Bonus Feat/Flaw: Iron Will
Bonus Feat/Flaw: Hardened Criminal (take 10 on UMD)
1st        Skill Prodigy (to grab 3 skills on class list: UMD, Diplomacy, lucid dreaming)
1st        Mercantile Background
3rd        Item Familiar (at level 18, set to: Stronghold)
6th        Leadership (Erudite with Convert Spell to Power)
7th        Quickdraw (from flaw) / Infested with Chickens (flaw)
                 (via Psychic Reformation iron will from a flaw with iron will from a otyugh hole )
9th        Undead Leadership (Necropolitan Archivist)
12th        Dragon Cohort (Psuedodragon Thrallherd)
15th        Improved Cohort
18th        Landlord

Theme:  Avoid combat (why do we want to be there anyway) --> no Iaijutsu Focus.  Imperious Command is very cool but that's what cohorts are for.  Max UMD, wealth and leadership (those can grant most other things).

Start out with a lot of wealth (for animals & gear), cool skills, take 10 on UMD.

End up with 3 (5) main cohorts:
- ECL 20 dragon thrallherd (who has a level 18 and level 19 thrall).
- Level 18 Convert-Spell to Power Erudite
- Level 18 Necropolitan Archivist

And you have a talking castle.  And chickens.

Just a thought I found amusing ...

P.S.  Thanks to many people in this thread.

P.P.S.  An extra feat for Wanderer's Diplomacy for Magic Mart's would also be nice...

From a different thread, but a small section about commoners ... :
I'd argue that a commoner is much stronger than any tier 3 or less ;)

... with commoner's you're not distracted with "class features", which cause you to waste feats on anything other than things like leadership, mercantile, etc.  - David

Also, the DM will let you get away with a LOT more, because every time you come up with something ridiculous and the DM says no way, you can say "aw come on man, I'm playing a Commoner" and then you're good to go.  All hail the mighty commoner!

JaronK

Dude, you aren't a commoner.  You're not even the commoner.  You, sir, are the commonest.

Oh right ... Commoner + C.O.board = Tier 1 (or better).

 :bigeye I forgot for a moment where I am (?!).

« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 12:10:44 AM by DavidWL »

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Other Cool Builds
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2011, 01:07:27 AM »
Some cool builds and guides:

Durak the Black, Fallen Palladin, Blackguard Demonbinder - PhaedrusXY
CO Build: The Ranger - Dictum Mortuum
-- Per the discussion, I'd do this as a swift hunter, and also take the "Wise to Your Ways (spellcaster)" feat.  Also nice to fit in Apprentice(spellcaster)
The War Weaver Guidebook - Valdrax
Triad of Shadows - Xaktsaroth
D&D Rebalancing -RobbyPants

Fun Homebrew:

Mana Based Spellcasting
Book of Elements - Tome material
Time and Space [Tome] Base Classes by Phaedrus XY - really like the Warper!
Awakend Dreamer

Paladin 20 (Bard/Caster) - http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29110689
Illumian: Aeshkrau

Paladin 20

Feats:  (7 from levels + 2 from flaws)
   Spellcasting
   * Battle's Blessing
   * Sword of the Arcane Order
   * Practiced Spellcaster

   Bardic
   * Song of the Heart
   * Words of Creation
   * Lingering Song
   * From Smite to Song (Smite -> Inspire Courage)

   Other
   * Leadership (for mount++)
   * Improved Cohort

Substitution Levels:
Mystic Fire Knight 4 Turn Undead -> More spells and +2 CL
Harmonious Knight 6 Remove Disease -> Inspire Competence
Harmonious Knight 9 Remove Disease -> Inspire Greatness

ACF:
Special Mount -> Divine Spirit

ITEMS
Badge of Valor
Vest of Legends
Harmonizing Weapon


Barbarian 20
Human
Feral, Mineral Warrior, Half-minotaur or Half-ogre (LA Buyoff)

------ Alternative Class Features: ------

Lose fast movement -> Lion Totem: Gain Pounce ability

unshakable (Dragon 349, p93) - trades improved uncanny dodge for immunity to fear.

Crafty Hunter (UA, p 58): Gain favored enemy, archery combat style, improved archery combat style, and greater archery combat style. Lose rage and indomitable will.
   Arcane Hunter (CM, p 32): lose normal favored enemy, gain "Favored Enemy (Arcanists)"
   Shape-changing (UA, p 58): Gain wildshape as druid (small and medium animals only) and fast movement as barbarian. Lose combat styles.

Spell Sense (CM, p 35): Lose trapsense. Gain AC bonus vs spells

Streetfighter (CS, web): Lose damage reduction to gain special abilities and benefits while charging.

------ Items ------

Valorous Weapon
Eternal Wand (Heroics)

------ Feats ------
(1 human + 2 flaws + 7 levels + 1 barbarian)

   GENERIC
   * Wise to your ways (spellcaster) [Gh]
   * Nemesis (Spellcaster) [BoED]
   * Exalted or Dragon Wildshape (All! Ex and Su, Small and Medium)
   * (Possibly work in Proportionate Wildshape?)

   CHARGER
   * Improved Bull Rush
   * Power Attack
   * Shock Trooper
   * leap attack
   * Knockback (RoS)
   * Improved Trip
   * Battle Jump

------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------

+10 to skills, saves, vs. spellcasters, +10+1D6 to damage, can sense within 60' (+6 AC vs. spells)
Wildshape into Animals / Dragon
Template madness
pouncing cleaving turning far charge
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 01:30:38 AM by DavidWL »

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Erudite
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2011, 01:07:35 AM »
Sources: all 3.5, Hyperconciousness

Old Human Necropolitan Erudite 20

Feats
1st   Spell to Power
1st   Assume Psicrystal (Bonus Erudite)
1st   Overchannel (Bonus Human)
1st   Imprint Stone (Bonus Erudite)
3rd   Talented
5th   Expanded Knowledge [Minor Creation, Psionic] (Bonus Erudite)
   -> 11th level Psychic Reformation -> Expanded Knowledge [Shadow Evocation]
   -> 17th level Psychic Reformation -> Expanded Knowledge [Shadow Evocation, Greater]
6th   Extend Power
9th   Link Power
10th   Expanded Knowledge [Shadow Conjuration] (Bonus Erudite)
   -> 17th level Psychic Reformation -> Expanded Knowledge [Shadow Conjuration, Greater]
12th   Craft Universal Item
15th   ????
15th   Persistent Power (Bonus Erudite)
18th   Landlord
20th   ??? (Bonus Erudite)

Notes:
- many powerstones for useful powers, used for buffing and utility
- Many powers and spells are Persisted once he hits 15th level.  With Overchannel, powers of up to 6th level can be persisted at level 20.
- Potential House Rule: any "Expanded Knowledge" feat means that manifesting that power doesn't count towards your unique powers per day.  Please let me know if you think this is overpowered, etc.
- One level gravy train => ~ 20 powers/spells known per level, necropolitan template, +2 LA via LA buyoff, extra gear.
- Potential House Rule:  Arcane fusion and similar spells only work on spells that are in the pool of "unique spells per day". 

In Epic:
Epic Manifestation
Improved Overchannel

Thoughts?

Thanks!,
David
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:19:23 AM by DavidWL »

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A Diviner
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2011, 01:07:42 AM »
Goals:

Hello all - I'm in the process of making a divination - themed build. 
- 1st goal is to make it very good at divination,
- 2nd goal is to make it effective in general,
- 3rd goal is to make it as close to DM neutral as possible. 
In this order of importance.

Build:

Classes, listed in the order I take them, with options and pre-reqs (note: I haven't yet looked at skill pre-reqs):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wizard 5 - Spontaneous Divination - Domain Specialist - Divination (Future)
Incantatrix 4 (Req: Iron Will, 1 metamagic, 3rd level spells)
Steel Legionnaire 1 (Req: Fort, Reflex, Will +2, Bab +4, level 6)
Legion Sorcerer 2 (Req: Will +6, spell focus(divination))
Urban Savant 4 (Req: Favored)
Divine Oracle 3 (Req: Skill Focus: Knowledge - Religion)

Feat Progression:
Middle-Aged Human.  Trait: Spellgifted (Divination)
Affiliation: Knowledge
 1 - Spell Mastery - [Human Bonus] - retrain every couple of levels for better spell selection
 1 - Uncanny Foresight - [Level]
 1 - Scribe Scroll -> Expert Timing (from Kingdom's of Kalamar)  [Retrained or Psychic Reformation]
 3 - Improved Familiar (Beguiler at 7th level) - [Level]
 6 - Iron Will - [Magical Location: Otyugh Hole]
 6 - Extend Spell +1 - [Level]
 6 - Persistent Spell +6 - [Incantatrix: Level 1]
 9 - Spell Focus (Divination) - [Level]
 9 - Delay Spell +3 - [Incantatrix: Level 4]
12 - Favored
15 - Craft Contingent Spell - [Level]
16 - Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) - [Magical Location: The Frog God's Fane]
18 - Insightful Divination - [Level]

Abilities/Thoughts of Note

- CL 19, +5 divination, additional +1 domain spells, -1 non-divination spells
- Spell Mastery -> Uncanny Foresight
- Spontaneous Divination
- Share Divination - ability from Legion Sorcerer which allows you to share divination spells with all in 30'
- Uses Spell Research Generously for new Divination Spells
- Icantatrix Goodness
- Canny Spellcraft - ability from Legion Sorcerer - adds Spellcasting Attribute vs. SR and saves vs. Spells / SLA
- Urban savvy from Urban Savant - assuming a wiling DM ("urban savant is an expert on the local community" ... "The DM can modify this list as needed, replacing any creature type here with any other type appropriate to the campaign" ... this character was raised in Sigil).

Other Things

Magical Location:
Cloudseat (CM)
requires: arcane spellcaster, 3 divination spells of 2nd level or higher
gain: ability to cast 2nd level or lower divination spells as swift actions (lasts 1 year)

Magical Location:
Metamagic Storm (CM)
requires: arcane caster, at least 1 metamagic feat
gain: a metamagic feat (must qualify for it and it can't be used to qualify for anything else) (lasts 1 year)

Affiliation:
Knowledge Domain (CC)
+2 bonus on a single Knowledge skill in which you have ranks
+2 insight on a single attack, save or check, 1/day
+1 CL for divinations
1/day negate a single ability (that you have identified with a Knowledge check) of an enemy 1 min, Fort save negates

Divination(Future) Domain Wizard:
1 Guidance / Omen of Peril
2 Augury
3 Commune With Lesser Spirit (Oriental Adventures)
4 Divination
5 Surge of Fortune / Contact Other Plane
6 Eyes of the Oracle
7 Vision
8 Moment of Prescience
9 Foresight

Note: Maybe a custom domain and some trickery to take it including a domain power: Free re-roll for divination-related % rolls.  (Augury, Divination, Contact Other Plane, etc.)


Thoughts for Divination Spells

Spells to:
- Can avoid mishap: never suffers attacks of opportunity and gains combat reflexes
- Can go first: bonuses to initiative or even unbeatable initiative
- Actions can be delayed / Actions can be immediate actions without impact to initiative order
- can undo misfortune - more time = higher level (1 round, 1 encounter, 1 series of encounters)
- can see the future (progressively more detail / further in the future)

Notes:

Steel Legionnaire is from the DragonLance Campaign Setting.  This class doesn't really give anything of value, but it's level 1 ability (something like bardic knowledge), is a pre-req for Legion Sorcerer.  Also,it costs a CL.  *ouch*

Legion Sorcerer is from Dragonlance - Age of Mortals.  Let's you share divination spells with those in 30' at 1st level, and add Casting Att. bonus to punch through SR at 2nd.  Other cool abilities too.  Nice class - and great for my diviner-themed build.

Best,
David
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 07:49:45 PM by DavidWL »

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Generic Sorcerer
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2011, 01:08:06 AM »
A Generic Sorcerer
Inspired by this thread: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5962.0

Old Necropolitan Human

Uses Limited Wish to cast Psychic Reformation to redo feats and spell selections periodically.  Rides the 1 level gravy train to pay for it.

--Build--

Sorcerer 2/Metaphisical Spell Shaper 3/Incantatrix 10/Halruaan Elder 5

1:   (Flaw)         Metamagic (Extend)    -> Halruaan Adept       (at level 14)
1:   (Flaw)         Metamagic (Persistent)    -> Spell Thematics       (at level 14)
1:   (Human)         Precocious Apprentice    -> Craft Contingent Spell    (at level 14)
1:   (Level)         Sanctum Spell       -> Apprentice(Spellcaster)   (at level 14)
3:   (Level)         Reserves of Strength
5:    (Bonus Metamagic)
6:   (Otyugh Hole)      Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)
6:   (Level)
6:   (Bonus Metamagic)
9:   (Level)
9:   (Bonus Metamagic)
12:   (Level)
12:   (Bonus Metamagic)
15:   (Level)         
15:   (Bonus Metamagic)   
18:   (Level)         Arcane Disciple (Luck)

--Summary--

CL: 20
5 open metamagic feats
4 open general feats
2 signature spells (Miracle + 1 other)
Circle Magic
Metamagic Mastery / Improved Metamagic / Adroit Casting * 2
Metaphysical Metamagic / Metamagic Effect

--Default Feat Choices--

Metamagic:
  • Extend
  • Persistent
  • Still
  • Silent
  • Invisible Spell
General:
  • Repeat
  • Twin
  • Practical Metamagic (Twin)
  • Rapid Metamagic
Notes:
  • Adroit Casting (Twin)
  • Adroit Casting (Repeat)

--Some Abilities of Note--
  • All spells are Stilled, Silent, and Invisible with no LA.  Very hard to stop him from casting, can't detect that he is casting.
  • All spells are Repeated or Twinned with no LA, and both Repeated and Twinned at +1 LA.  Can nova very easily with a combination of Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Arcane Fusion, Repeat and Twin.
  • Amazing CL with circle Magic, Reserves of strength allows breaking past CL limits, Apprentice (Caster) gives cohorts to fuel this.
  • Use any crafting feat with Limited Wish -> Psychic Reformation (there and back).  Adapting the following feats allows this to quickly more than pay for itself: Apprentice (Craftsman) / Extraordinary Artisan / Legendary Artisan / Magical Artisan.
  • Can cast Miracle, duplicating any cleric spell of level 8.  (Or a twinned Miracle!)
  • Persistent spells with Metaphysical Metamagic / Metamagic Effect

--Other Mini Feat Combos--

Arcane Preparation
Adroit Casting(Echoing)
Echoing
-> Prepare echoing spells.  With Circle Magic, this allows for spells to be cast _many_ times.

Adroit Casting (Reach)
Adroit Casting (Chain)
Reach
Chain
-> All spells can be Reached / Chained at no extra cost
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:19:49 AM by DavidWL »

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Generic Sorcerer - Take 2
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2011, 01:11:28 AM »
A different version of the above:

--Build--

Cleric 1/Sorcerer 1/Metaphysical Spell Shaper 3/Incantatrix 4/Dwoemerkeeper 6/Halruaan Elder 5

1   Sorcerer 1      Apprentice (Spellcaster) (Human)
            Reserves of Strength (Level)
            Precocious APprentice (Flaw)   -> Spell Thematics (at Level 15)
            Sanctum Spell (Flaw)       -> Halruaan Adept (at Level 15)
2   Cleric 1      Extend (Planning Domain)
3   Metaphysical S.S. 1   Persist (Level)       -> Arcane Disciple(Luck) (at Level 19)
4   Metaphysical S.S. 1   [OPEN BONUS METAMAGIC]
5   Metaphysical S.S. 1
6   Incantatrix 1      Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)
            [OPEN BONUS METAMAGIC]
            OPEN (Level)
7   Incantatrix 2      
8   Incantatrix 3      
9   Incantatrix 4      Craft Wonderous Item (Level)
            [OPEN BONUS METAMAGIC]
10   Dweomerkeeper 1      
11   Dweomerkeeper 2      
12   Dweomerkeeper 3      OPEN (Level)
13   Dweomerkeeper 4      
14   Dweomerkeeper 5
15   Dweomerkeeper 6      OPEN (Level)
16   Halruaan Elder 1   
17   Halruaan Elder 2
18   Halruaan Elder 3   OPEN (Level)
19   Halruaan Elder 4   
20   Halruaan Elder 5   

--Summary--

CL: 19
3 open metamagic feats
4 open general feats
2 signature spells, 3 Mantle Spells (Miracle, Timestop, Greater Arcane Fusion, Greater Celerity, Arcane Spellsurge)
Circle Magic
Metamagic Mastery / Adroit Casting * 2
Metaphysical Metamagic / Metamagic Effect
2 Supernatural spells per day

15 total feats (7 level + 1 human + 2 flaw + 1 Otyugh Hole + 1 Planning Domain + 2 Incantatrix + 1 Metaphysical Spell Shaper)
6 "stuck" on prereqs (Spell Thematics, Halruaan Adept, Iron Will, Extend, arbitrary Metamagic, arbitrary Item crafting)

--Daily Ritual--

- Cast Limited Wish to Emulated Psychic Reformation
- Change Feat List
- Change Spells Known for one off spells (example:  Extended / Echoed / Persistent / All-day spells)
- Prepare one off spells with Arcane Preparation
- Cast Limited Wish to Emulated Psychic Reformation -> Spells for the day
- Cast buff sequence

--Preping Feat Choices--

Echo
Persistent
Practical Metamagic(Echo)
Adroit Casting (Echo)
Arcane Preparation

--Default Feat Choices--

Open Metamagic Choices:
   Still
   Silent
   Invisible
General:
   Rapid Metamagic
   Leadership
   Otherwordly
   Open
Notes:
   Adroit Casting (Still)
   Adroit Casting (Silent)

--Some Abilities of Note--
  • All spells are Stilled, Silent, and Invisible with no LA.  Very hard to stop him from casting, can't detect that he is casting.
  • Amazing CL with circle Magic, Reserves of strength allows breaking past CL limits, Apprentice (Caster) gives cohorts to fuel this.
  • Use any crafting feat with Limited Wish -> Psychic Reformation (there and back).  Adapting the following feats allows this to quickly more than pay for itself: Apprentice (Craftsman) / Extraordinary Artisan / Legendary Artisan / Magical Artisan.
  • Can cast Miracle, duplicating any cleric spell of level 8.
  • Persistent spells with Metaphysical Metamagic / Metamagic Effect
  • Has many more high-level spells known given the extra 5 slots from Signature Spell *2 and Mantle *3 (Note:  It isn't obvious to me that this is legal ... opinions?)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:20:05 AM by DavidWL »

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LA for Gestalt
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2011, 01:13:27 AM »
Source Threads:
Of Mice and Level Adjustments
Gestalt ECLx versus non-Gestalt ECLx?

Background

I think the best way to look at balance is to compare specific builds throughout their range of levels.  I would assert that
1)  Gestalt costs casters the greatest
2)  Gestalt benefits non casters the most
3)  Gestalt should be best balanced for Gish.

At level 2:
Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1 ~= Gestalt Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1
(click to show/hide)
Conclusion:  Roughly equal - perhaps very slightly in favor of the Gestalt

At level 5:
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2 ~= Gestalt Fighter 4/Sorcerer 4
(click to show/hide)
Conclusion:  Roughly equal

At level 8:
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2/Eldritch Knight 3 ~= Gestalt Fighter 6/Sorcerer 6
(click to show/hide)
Conclusion:  Roughly equal

At level 13
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2/Eldritch Knight 8 ~= Gestalt Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10
(click to show/hide)
Conclusion:  Roughly equal, but ...

Now it starts to get more complicated as the fact that the gestalt get's lots more special abilities has to be balanced by lower level adjustment. 

If we only did +2 LA, the Gestalt would be equal in almost every way and! have more class abilities.  With +3 LA the gestalt is basically paying +1 LA for 3 bonus feats.  Additionally, the gestalt build isn't that optimal, since a "real" core gestalt would have also dipped in Paladin 2 and/or Barbarian 2 and/or Ranger 2.

At level 18

Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 5/Eldritch Knight 10 ~= Gestalt Fighter 15/Sorcerer 15
(click to show/hide)
I think this is roughly equal ... ~4 bonus feats for a caster level.  Perhaps a little strong, but acceptable.

At level 20
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 7/Eldritch Knight 10 ~= Gestalt Fighter 17/Sorcerer 17
(click to show/hide)
Conclusion - this is in favor of the Gestalt.   Better BAB, slightly better HP, slightly worse saves, -1 CL, but far better class abilities (~5! bonus feats).  I think +3 LA is not enough.  bumping it to +4.

Conclusion
example:
- from levels 1 - 4 it is +1 LA
- level 5 = +1.5 LA
- from levels 6 - 11 it is +2 LA
- level 12 is +2.5 LA
- from levels 13 - 17 it is +3 LA
- level 18 is + 3.5 LA
- from levels 19 - ... it is +4 LA

If we round down we make the Gestalt stronger relative to a gish, if we round up, we make it weaker relative to a gish.  I'd argue to favor strength (balancing closer to a pure caster).  This also works well, to simplify ...

Easy simplification - Gestalt is +1 LA per 6 levels.

At low levels a gish often trades 1 CL for BAB / proficiences / feats.  (1 CL ~ 1 LA)
At mid levels, there is usually a trade of a 2nd CL for a dual progression class (2 CL ~ 2 LA)
At high levels, there is less of a trade off, but usually the Gestalt starts getting more cool class features (2+ 6 levels of class features per 1 LA)

Do you agree with my method?  (Balancing against a gish vs. against a caster or non-caster)?
Do you agree with my judgments?  (break points for extra LA?)

Thanks,
David

EDIT:  Also, I think LA should apply to both sides, but HD only to one.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:20:17 AM by DavidWL »

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Cool Ranger 20
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2011, 01:14:24 AM »
Dictum had a wonderful ranger build which I can't find, so here is one inspired by my memory of his.  (Surely somewhat different)

Strongheart Halfling

Ranger 20

Alternative Class Features
- Arcane hunter [CM] - Spellcasters as favored enemies
- Trap expert [Du] - Trap and swift tracker -> Trapfinding as rogue
- Urban Companion [CS web] - animal companion -> familiar+
- combat styles -> Wildshape Ranger (as druid, small or medium), + fast movement

Feats:
B - Wise to your ways (spellcaster) [Gh]
1 - Nemesis (Spellcaster) [BoED]
3 - Darkstalker [LoM]
6 - Sword of the Arcane Order [CoV]
9 - Improved Familiar
12 - Dragon Wildshape (Ex and Su, Small and Medium)
15 - Minor Shapechange
18 - Practiced Spellcaster

End Result:

Cast wizard and Ranger spells of up to 4th level with CL = 14
+12 to skills, saves, vs. spellcasters, +12+1D6 to damage, can sense within 60'
Wildshape into Dragon
Improved Urban Companion (*3/4 HP, no exp cost improved familiar)

Things I thought about:

- Shooting Star sub levels - I ended up favoring the Improved Urban companion, as that is more fun, and still very useful (with no exp cost - change in out every level!)
- Swift Hunter - I ended up not doing that, as it costs at least 1 feat, +2 FE for +5D6.  But with this build that means:  +4 to save, damage, skills vs. spellcaster vs. +5D6 damage.  The loss of saves is quite a hit, so I don't think it really is an improvement.
- Definitely would go mystic Ranger if Dragon Mag was in.

Feedback?

Best,
David


EDIT: 
Minor Shapechange used to be -> Extra Favored Enemy [Gh] (assume this works as it should instead of as it does)
If we had flaws, I'd also do Apprentice(Spellcaster) for UMD
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:20:38 AM by DavidWL »

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Casting Chameleon - not so toned down ...
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2011, 01:14:51 AM »
reserved
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 06:54:37 PM by DavidWL »

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One-sided Chameleon
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2011, 01:15:13 AM »
An old build I made where we assumes that the Chameleon's casting of haste can meet the special prereq of the swiftblade.  (It may be that planar touchstone (catalogues of enlightenment (time domain ) ) ) would also function...  Barring that, a 1 level dip in Trapsmith would do the trick - just swap out a level of fighter and re-order a bit.

Human Dark Creature with LA buyoff (or full-day Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis instead of Dark Creature Template)

Classes:
Feat Rogue 2/Cobra Strike Monk 2/Human Paragon 3/Chameleon 2/Swiftblade 9/Fighter 2

Alternative Class Features:

Spell Reflexion instead of evasion for Monk
Decisive Strike instead of flurry for Monk
2 Fighter Feats instead of sneak attack for Rogue

Total Feats:
7 (levels) +2 (feat rogue) +1 (human Paragon) +2 (fighter) + 1 floating (chameleon) + Dodge (Monk) + Mobility (Monk) + Spring Attack (Swiftblade) + Bounding Assault (Swiftblade)

Feat Choices:
  • Skillmonkey:
   
  • Able Learner
  • Dark Stalker
 
  • Defensive:
   
  • Combat Expertise (w/ other free feats) => Word Given Form (p218, ToM)
  • Karmic Strike
  • Sidestep
  • Combat Reflexes
 
  • Offensive:
   
  • Shot on the run
  • Woodland Archer
  • Point Blank Shot
  • Rapid Shot
  • Many Shot
  • Greater Many Shot
 
  • 1 floating feat from Chameleon

Perks:

Very Effective Archer: BAB = 16. Takes a standard action to attack, gets 4 attacks from Greater manyshot, Can move before and after from Shot on the run, and can do it while hiding from Woodland Archer. Also has full access to all of the ranger spells.

Amazing with Hide: Can hide extremely effectively with Darkstalker, Word Without Form for Total Concealment from 1 opponent, and Hide in Plain Sight and hide bonuses from Dark Creature Template

Great Skill Access: Has full skill access from Rogue + Human Paragon, many skill points from the focus on intelligence, has these skills as class skills forever from Able Learner. Trapfinding.

Very Strong Defensively: Has a 50% miss chance vs. all, and if missed with spells, then the spells rebound via Spell Reflexion. Evasion. Total concealment vs. opponent who is the target of a dodge bonus. Can use Karmic Strike and Sidestep to attack in response to attacks as well as avoid full attacks.
Strong and Flexible Caster: Casting = Chameleon 10 for arcane casting => 20 CL, Any 6th level arcane spell.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 05:12:21 AM by DavidWL »

Offline DavidWL

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Bow down to Frank & K
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2011, 01:15:37 AM »
Frank & K
Tome v.7
Book of Elements

Notes to self / class summary: (Some cool things to play)


adjusted monster: CR ~= level - 1
- Elemental Weird w/ Astral Projection is awesome for winning the knowledge game.  14th level

Fighter - 10 cool bonus feats, great chasis (HD, skills, saves), starting at 7th: immediate action interrupts + extra immediate actions.  "The uberman + ~lockdown"

Samurai - Bonus combat feats, at 8th: attack magic, ignore defenses (DR, Hardness, spells granting AC, Armor, etc.), very powerful attacks of opportunity. "Powerful in combat / well-rounded"

Ninja - free surprise round + amazing initiative, powerful invisibility effects, powerful attacks vs. flatfooted (eventually all people are flatfooted), a range of Ex/Su abilities that duplicate spells.  "Random Coolness"

Thaumaturge - cast anything spontaneously, a little metamagic goodness, few spells per day.  Make it a doubly for staying power?  (Anima Mage, Arcane Archer, etc.?).  Cha Focused Thamaturge + Anima Mage = nice.

Conduit of the lower planes - 5 spheres in 10 levels.  Magic and Oracle = awesome.  5 levels for Expert "Magic Sphere", for example ...

Prestige classes = awesome
- many powerful magical ones that are transformational, metamagic multiplying, or arcane/combat
- Enlightened Disciple of Wel Hung Temple (like Sohei, but earlier access to coolness - p208).  Faster version of Sohei ... very cool.  If "Enlightenment: We Are All Connected" were your only class feature in a game you would be effective.

Feats of special note:
Danger Sense / Alerness /
Blitz / Dreadful Demeanor / Frightful Presence
Insightful Strike = wisdom attacking
Mage Slayer
Two Weapon Fighting
Expert Counterfeiter (make free scrolls @16) / Item Master (don't use consumables w/ roll)
ghost step/ Stealthy

Some Build Sketches:
* Sohei 5/ Enlightened Disciple of Wel Hung Temple 10/Conduit of the Lower Planes 5 (Sphere = Magic) - coolness + magic
* Elemental Weird 14/Conduit of the Lower Planes 6 (Sphere = Magic) - wins the knowledge game
* Fighter 15/Conduit of the Lower Planes 5 (Sphere = Magic) - ultimate generalist

« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 03:28:49 AM by DavidWL »

Offline DavidWL

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Pure Indulgence - My new favorite class & LA w/ Gestalt
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2011, 02:12:18 AM »
My New Favorite Class - Enlightened Disciple of Wel Hung Temple

Once again, all bow down to Frank and K.  While it is homebrew, there are advantages - this is probably the single most commonly used homebrew, and it it's, of course, free!.

Let me sing thy praises:
Class Level (min character level = class + 5) - ability name: description.  Reason there is love
  • 3 - Enlightenment: Eschew Worldly Possessions:  create items up to 15K gold with 1 minute meditation.  While others get this in a Frank and K game, this is normally given significantly later.  And with items being one of the trump cards of the game, this gives insane flexibility.
  • 6 - Enlightenment: We Are All Connected:  Share any allies buff with all, and reflect some enemies attacks.   This ability to share buffs is amazing - as a free action, _any_ spell or effect.  This ability all by itself would be enough to make a class tier 3+
  • 8 - Quantum Cat Mantra:  The best of death and life.  Vast immunities, no downsides.
  • 9 - Zen Fist:  can't be interrupted by immediate actions.  Take that Spellcasters!  Lockdown Builds!  Mwahahaha ... I am unstoppable!
  • 9 - Enlightenment: Transcendence: ageless and virtually unkillable.  The good stuff from the lich without the downsides.
  • 10 - The Barrier That Wasn’t:  ~Freedom of movement.  Now even more "trump all" ability.
  • 10 - Kill Buddha: Half Celestial template for free.
  • Cover's the bases:  Flight at 1st level- very useful indeed
  • Utility:  Disintigrate objects, alter and repair terrain and buildings at will
  • Defensive Ability: Most attacks take a 50% miss chance, those who grapple or melee strike take moderate damage, +12 deflection bonus
  • Offensive Ability:  Random cool melee attack effects "Koans", may fire 8 250' rays each of which does 1D6+class level + wis bonus in damage

Almost as if you took Walker in the Waste, gave Undead Immunities + Unkillability + 1/2 Celestial instead of Lich.  And gave awesome immunities + utility abilities instead of casting.

Normally, we say that a non-spellcaster can't hang with the spellcasters, but in this case, well, maybe they can.  The buff-sharing + the item creation gives great power and utility.  The awesome immunities are incredible, all bases are covered, etc.

God, I love this class.

Pure Indulgence

So, if I could play anything in a 20 level game ...

Sohei 5/Enlightened Disciple of Wel Hung Temple 10/Conduit of the Lower Planes 5
Skills:  UMD, Spot, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Intimidate
Feats:
1   Expert Timing [Kalamar Players Guide]
1   Mercantile Background
3   Two Weapon Fighting
6   Insightful Strike
9   Master of Terror
12   Danger Sense
15   Natural Empath
18   Supernatural Ability (Sphere: Oracle) -> Standard action use instead of 10min

Or perhaps ECL Gestalt:

Elemental Weird 9 / Planar Oracle 5 / XXX 3 / Gestalt +3
Sohei 5 / Enlightened Disciple of Wel Hung Temple 10 / XXX 2 / Gestalt +3

Skills:  UMD, Spot, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Intimidate
Feats:
1   Expert Timing [Kalamar Players Guide]
1   Mercantile Background
3   Supernatural Ability (Sphere: Oracle) -> Standard action use
instead of 10min
6   Insightful Strike
9   Two Weapon Fighting
12   Master of Terror
15   Danger Sense
18   Natural Empath

Spheres: (7 total)

Oracle * 3

+4 from
Aegis
Bubbles
Brutality
Creation
Dominion
Horizon
Magic
Shadow
Telepathy
Travel

Custom Sphere:
Uberman
- use the ability from the Uberman sphere once per day as Ex ability
1)      Weildskill (Magic of Faerun = +10)
2)      Heroism
3)      Any Animal's Attribute (Ex: Cat's Grace)
4)      Improvisation
5)      Unfettered Heroism
6)      Surge of Fortune
7)      Psychic Reformation (No Exp Cost once per day)
8)      Moment of Prescience
9)      Any Hyper Attribute (Ex: Hypercongnition+ ... 1 activity )
10)     Miracle (mimic spell only)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 09:03:54 PM by DavidWL »

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: DavidWL's archive of randomness
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2011, 05:49:59 PM »
*2 wis skills?
Where is 'Quor Bred' from?

Edit:
Conclusion
example:
- from levels 1 - 4 it is +1 LA
- level 5 = +1.5 LA
- from levels 6 - 11 it is +2 LA
- level 12 is +2.5 LA
- from levels 13 - 17 it is +3 LA
- level 18 is + 3.5 LA
- from levels 19 - ... it is +4 LA

Do you agree with my method?  (Balancing against a gish vs. against a caster or non-caster)?
Do you agree with my judgments?  (break points for extra LA?)
Okay so I came up with a 5LA at ECL 20. You came up with 4. I always err on the side of caution. You're estimation is probably closer, although mine is more likely to be accepted.