Author Topic: Egocentric Bastards...  (Read 8569 times)

Offline Amechra

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Egocentric Bastards...
« on: August 02, 2013, 02:21:38 PM »
I've finally figured out why I'm so confused by people who are paranoid about the US Government tapping their calls and watching their emails.

With a quick look-up, it looks like the NSA can gather 3 billion phone calls a day. That sounds really scary, right?

However, think of it this way:

Your name is Alice. You call your friend Bob, chat for a bit, and decide to have lunch on Tuesday. Your conversation contains a lot of gossip about other mutual friends, some musings about the weather tomorrow, and wishing Bob luck at the meeting he's going to have with his boss next week for a performance review.

The guvment listens to the whole thing, OMG, i iz scared. Except that there really isn't any information that they would care about in that call.

That gossip? Probably on Facebook.

All the rest of that? Garbage information as far as the NSA is concerned.

That is the grand majority of the phone calls that you are going to be making, people. The same goes for your emails.

There is a reason that you don't send personal information by email or by phone; it is to stop crooks from getting it and, coincidentally, it stops the government from getting it to.

In fact, other than information on criminal actions, what kind of "secret things" do most people have?

You having an affair? Unless your SO is in the NSA, they don't give a fuck.
Your medical records? The government already has those, or at least the pertinent parts, especially if you have medicare.
Your financial details? You pay your taxes lately? Then they already have them.

I think the issue is that most people don't step back and think about the fact that most of their communications aren't of any importance to anyone but their immediate circle of friends. Unless you are some sort of threat to national security or to the people around you, well, the people listening in won't give a flying fuck about you congratulating your cousin on their promotion.

Hell, the majority of the stuff tapped isn't even listened to; they use software that scans your communications for key words, and then if that goes over a certain threshold, the communication is flagged.

Flagged communications are then subject to more scrutiny; OK, so maybe that time you were bragging to your friend over the phone that you did so well in call of duty, you bombed them, you shot up those dirty terrorists, etc, etc...

They look at that, notice that you aren't actually talking about anything related to national security, and then they ignore that particular communication.

In a country of 313.9 million people, the chances that the NSA will give a fuck about you is vanishingly small.

Oh, but you aren't worried about the NSA in particular? You have some minor peccadillos you talked to Bob about? The NSA doesn't care unless it's a serious crime or a threat to national security. Any law enforcement agency that actually has jurisdiction over your area is probably not actually capable of wide-spanning phone/email tapping (remember, the NSA are an agency that specializes in data gathering), and any law enforcement agency that is, well...

Your crimes probably aren't serious enough to be in their jurisdiction.

I agree that the NSA basically not having any real oversight is frightening, from a legal and political standpoint; however, for the average citizen, it isn't a massive threat to your privacy.

After all, you already sold your privacy. You use a search engine? The fact that you made that search is logged and analyzed by some marketing firm, which uses the aggregate of a bunch of searches for market research.

You post a picture of yourself on the internet? A couple of million people are likely to see it.

You talk about your Sweet 16 on Facebook, and accidentally press the wrong security settings (or just use the defaults)? You might get a couple thousand people showing up (dang, can't find the link to the news report about that chick in Australia this happened to.)

There are public websites that check your Facebook history, which market themselves to employers as a way to get a quick background check on their potential employees.

That's the drawback of the internet; you're naked out here unless you make the effort to put clothes on.
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 02:46:04 PM »
Eh, my issue with it--and I'm not even in the US--is that it oversteps moral boundaries.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 03:51:46 PM »
Most people are probably in the same boat as Raineh on this, and I am too.  I know that the meaningless shit I talk about is exactly that: Meaningless shit.  However, that doesn't excuse the government from overstepping their bounds and looking through our stuff.  The fact that they are doing this, without our permission, is wrong.  As Franklin said: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

We the people have the right to feel secure in our belongings.  Unfortunately, people haven't gotten around to deciding whether digital possessions are held to the same degree as physical ones, so all these problems are popping up.  It'll be interesting to see what happens once quantum computing becomes mainstream.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 03:52:48 PM »
My issue with it is that it is a slippery slope.  Eventually if the government has been gathering all of that data for long enough, somebody is going to decide to do something with it. 

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 04:35:04 PM »
I wouldn't call that, exactly, a slippery slope.  There's just a great deal of potential for abuse, here.

In any case, I am making the transition as we speak to using a VOIP service instead of a cell phone (mostly because it's cheaper, but I'm not going to use Skype for privacy concerns), switching my search use to DuckDuckGo instead of Google, and changing my e-mail service away from Gmail.  I will probably still use Facebook, and maybe Twitter, but pretty much only for communication purposes.  I don't put any remotely sensitive information up on those websites for obvious reasons.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 04:59:18 PM »
+1 to JackG's Ben Franklin quote.

All those Soccer Moms became Security Moms
after 9/11 and oh so willingly.  But hey at least
it's getting closer, what with the recent Congress
Patriot Act vote that went oh so close.

Facebook =  :) ... then hands that info back to the dudes who made the interwebs =  :(
It isn't like people really believe Al Gore made the internet.
Still, I think too many people are happy with their delusions.
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Offline CaptRory

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 05:31:05 PM »
It is important to fight every threat to your freedom every step of the way. It doesn't matter how inconsequential it seems today or how good the reason for it sounds. If something is used responsibly today, tomorrow when the next administration comes in it'll be used more widely and with less restraint. You can't assume that every issue is in jeopardy of falling off the slippery slope, but historically every time government expands its powers it makes things worse for its citizens and seeks more power.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/01/writer-claims-online-searches-for-pressure-cookers-and-backpacks-earned-her-a-visit-from-the-feds-and-thats-not-even-the-scariest-part-of-the-story/

Government, that is American Government, was created to guarantee our rights. Our rights are not given to us by our government, they are endowed to us by our Creator, and/or are our natural rights as men. Governmental restrictions on our rights and freedoms are unconstitutional and unlawful by default. Our elected officials swear to Uphold and Defend the Constitution of these United States, which makes anyone passing legislation violating our Constitutional Rights breach their oath of office and they should be impeached. Sadly that is not done or we wouldn't be in this mess.

Offline bhu

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 06:24:44 PM »

Government, that is American Government, was created to guarantee our rights. Our rights are not given to us by our government, they are endowed to us by our Creator, and/or are our natural rights as men. Governmental restrictions on our rights and freedoms are unconstitutional and unlawful by default. Our elected officials swear to Uphold and Defend the Constitution of these United States, which makes anyone passing legislation violating our Constitutional Rights breach their oath of office and they should be impeached. Sadly that is not done or we wouldn't be in this mess.

That isn't done because their gerrymandered constituency elected them to pass that legislation.  With the polarization of our society people have turned to news sources that tell them what they wish to hear, thereby reinforcing their paranoid beliefs and the lies they've been told in an endless loop.  So in the thrall of that fear they turn to whoever promises them a way out, and that person is inevitably someone whose election was paid for by someone who wishes the rights of the public (and the ability of the government to enforce laws) to be ever more limited.  The elections of those who could stop them were paid for by the same groups.  Their voters wont toss them out because they're hoodwinked into believing that what's being done is somehow right despite it having obvious negative connotations for them.

Offline altpersona

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 06:46:13 PM »
every inch given is an inch taken. (twss)



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Offline dman11235

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 06:52:21 PM »
It is important to note that what the NSA is doing is NOT tapping your calls or communications.  They are tracking the metadata.  No content is being looked at.  Now, you can still argue this is wrong, but (and I shudder that I'm actually saying this) Michele Bachman was right, use the facts, not an exaggeration to debate the issue.  Unless something has come out that I'm not aware of.  And for the record, I still think it's at least borderline wrong, but it's not as bad as people are claiming.

And on the spying on other nations?  Is anyone really surprised that this was happening?  I can guarantee you that every nation that was spied on is doing the same thing to its friends.  Been playing a lot of Civ5 lately, and when you catch someone spying on you, you have a couple options.  You can ignore it, you can yell at them,  etc.  They promise not to do it again, then they keep doing it.  Nothing changed.  You catch them again later, same thing happens.  There's no stopping it, they can be truly sorry and your ally, but they do it anyways.

And the blaming of Obama for this needs to stop, because it happened back in 2003(2001?  can't remember exactly when).  This is not new news.  Snowden didn't reveal ANYthing new.  It's just that people didn't care enough back then, and they forgot.  He brought it back up.  And here's the kicker, it used to be worse, then it got slightly better under Obama.  Not all the way by far, but some things did stop.

Quote
I agree that the NSA basically not having any real oversight is frightening, from a legal and political standpoint; however, for the average citizen, it isn't a massive threat to your privacy.

After all, you already sold your privacy. You use a search engine? The fact that you made that search is logged and analyzed by some marketing firm, which uses the aggregate of a bunch of searches for market research.

This right here.  Everyone up in arms about the NSA needs to be freaking out about FB, Google, Apple, etc. etc.  because they actually look at your CONTENT and invade your privacy.  The NSA just tracks who you call and who calls you.  The government is doing it for safety, whether you believe that or not.  The corporations are exploiting it for profit.  Without saying it's right, who would you rather have access to your personal information, some corporation who doesn't care about you as anything but a dollar sign, or the government you have some control over and whose stated duty is to protect you and the rest of your fellow countrymen?
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Offline dna1

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 07:31:47 PM »
I'm going to keep this short, and I'm not trying to insult anyone or start a flamewar here.


Amechra and others defending this - If you don't care about civil liberty's and rights, then go live in China or North Korea. You might like it better there...  Just settle down and do what your told to do. Am I right?



Also.. compairing this to "us giving our privacy away because we use a search engine and facebook" is completely retarded.
That's not even in the same ballpark dude. You CHOOSE to use a search engine and facebook.
Do I really need to even elaborate on this?


Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If you think you can take everything that a politician tells you, and it be 100% true, then you must be living under a rock. Or you're just plain dumb.


It doesn't matter what the reasoning is. It doesn't matter if they are actively listening, or just running everything through computer filters.


It's wrong. Period.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 07:36:12 PM by dna1 »
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Offline altpersona

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 07:39:59 PM »
to be fair, using the phone or the internet in general is also just a choice  :(
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 07:49:50 PM »
Quote
I agree that the NSA basically not having any real oversight is frightening, from a legal and political standpoint; however, for the average citizen, it isn't a massive threat to your privacy.

After all, you already sold your privacy. You use a search engine? The fact that you made that search is logged and analyzed by some marketing firm, which uses the aggregate of a bunch of searches for market research.

This right here.  Everyone up in arms about the NSA needs to be freaking out about FB, Google, Apple, etc. etc.  because they actually look at your CONTENT and invade your privacy.  The NSA just tracks who you call and who calls you.  The government is doing it for safety, whether you believe that or not.  The corporations are exploiting it for profit.  Without saying it's right, who would you rather have access to your personal information, some corporation who doesn't care about you as anything but a dollar sign, or the government you have some control over and whose stated duty is to protect you and the rest of your fellow countrymen?

Corporations that are extremely unlikely to screw over my entire life if they decide I've said something wrong, thanks.

Offline dman11235

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 07:52:35 PM »
I was not defending it, i was defending the people who are innocent in the process and making sure the people who have a major problem are directing it at the right places for the right reasons.  If you're angry that the government is listening to your calls, then you're angry over nothing because it's not happening.  If you're angry about the government reading your messages and NOT angry that corporations are doing the same thing, you're not only angry about something that's not happening, you're also not angry when it actually IS happening.  Get angry that the NSA is tracking metadata, go right ahead, because that's what happening.  I'm right with you on that.  Just don't be surprised that it's happening because we've known they were doing it since the early 2000's.

Invoking China and NK into this is just wrong.  Here, you aren't taken away because you voiced your distrust of the government.  China is actually a bit more lenient than you apparently believe.  Still not great by any stretch of the imagination, don't get me wrong, but it's got nothing on NK.  Your freedoms are not being restricted by this, your privacy is.  Completely different scenarios.  Is it wrong, yes.  It's just not wrong in the same way you are saying it's wrong.  And since this isn't NK, I'm not going to get hauled off to political prison for saying so.

As for the corporation thing, you do very much need to elaborate on it.  Everyone uses some corporation.  Everyone.  You need to in order to succeed in today's world.  And how is it better that a corporation read the content of your messages, rather than tracking the metadata that the NSA is doing?  Even if you can opt out (the only way to do so is not use the services at all, remember, not even anonymously), how is it better?

The reasoning also does matter, but only when comparing it to other organizations invading privacy.  I'd rather have an organization working for me invade my privacy rather than one working for profit for themselves.  I'd rather have neither, but given the choice I'd choose the former.

EDIT: @Raineh: really?  So your saying that with this wiretapping that's not happening the government now has the right to detain you and destroy your life just if they feel like it?  No, that's not happening either.  This does not invalidate the protections under the law for things like false imprisonment and undue process.  It's true that they are eliminating due process for "enemy combatants", but that's been on the decline, and pretty much is reserved for people who have made themselves a threat in some way or are foreign.  Again, still wrong.  Not defending it, just trying to make sure the correct information is being angered at.

@alt: yes, that's true, I missed that point when I made my reply.  But the same thing applies, you're pretty much screwing yourself over if you don't in this age.  It's just that hey, the corporations run that too, it's not a government run thing where only they can spy on you.  The corporations have first dibs basically.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 07:58:47 PM by dman11235 »
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 08:05:42 PM »
EDIT: @Raineh: really?  So your saying that with this wiretapping that's not happening the government now has the right to detain you and destroy your life just if they feel like it?  No, that's not happening either.  This does not invalidate the protections under the law for things like false imprisonment and undue process.  It's true that they are eliminating due process for "enemy combatants", but that's been on the decline, and pretty much is reserved for people who have made themselves a threat in some way or are foreign.  Again, still wrong.  Not defending it, just trying to make sure the correct information is being angered at.

I trust pure greed (or mostly) a lot more than greed mixed with various polluted ideals, might makes right, and vast bureaucracy.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2013, 08:11:11 PM »
Why, thank you for calling me an authoritarian bastard! It is an exquisite capstone of my day! Why, yes, merely pointing out that this violation in privacy, while bad, is not a reason for people to lose their heads is exactly the same as supporting a regime that is so bad that they have guards at the borders keeping people in!

I love how, in your mind, there is no distinction between "they watch the general flow of data", and "policemen going around arresting you if you do not praise the great leader enough."

Also, I would like to suggest a little... experiment for you. I'd like you to try to go, say, a week without using your cellphone (the company that gives you the phone service logs your calls), home phone (same reason), any email service (the companies that run them can, if they particularly feel like it, extract your list of contacts from their records), or any other miscellaneous communication device that contains any degree of computing power.

On top of that, I would like you to find anything on the internet without a search engine. I mean, get a new computer, without any search or browsing history, and try to find websites. Do it without referencing another computer.

Don't watch TV either; the companies that give you that service aggregate your watching habits.

Oh, and avoid health care, insurance, paying your taxes, people taking pictures of you, being in public (because I personally know people who take random candid pictures of people in crowds and share it as art), using the post office...

Such a choice is not really a choice, is it? Especially if you want to be a productive member of society; now, I might be exaggerating a bit, but you get the general idea.

Think of it less as me "defending" it, and more of me pointing out "this is the price for living in the modern world."

Also? Politicians are snakes. It isn't because they are intrinsically evil people, it's because they have a human (i.e., horrifically limited) view of the problems at hand, aren't much more knowledgeable on the topics they are working towards then the general populace, and are in a corrupt organization.

A representational democracy can only function properly if you have an educated voting populace who is capable of making educated decisions concerning the big problems, so they can tell their representative that "we want this, because it will be the best for the whole."

Instead, representative democracy as practiced is more about who has the best hair on TV. I've always been fond of saying that the US goes to war with itself every 4 years.

Also, fun fact about the government: the fact that every part of it blocks every other part from getting shit done is a saving grace which makes them less of a threat to your privacy than private companies.

The NSA wants to use the data they collected? Well, to pass it over to the FBI, they have to go through a given bureaucratic process. Once that is done, the FBI has to go through its own byzantine processes before they can make a decision, which might require checking with another agency, which has to go through their own review process...

That company? They have a meeting or two. Or, they assign a guy to go through your data.

And, really, why do you worry about your phone conversations, when you already give the government all of your financial/demographic information in the form of taxes?

Why do you draw a moral line at one, and not at the other?

What makes one set of information "OK", and the other "HOLY SHIT, THEY ARE VIOLATING MY PRIVACY!"?

@Raineh: Heh. I take it you have never lived in a bureaucracy. I lived in one for 8 years. They get nothing done. Look up at my note on the NSA, and multiply that by "hmm... you didn't sign in triplicate. Do it again."
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Offline bhu

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2013, 08:13:01 PM »
EDIT: @Raineh: really?  So your saying that with this wiretapping that's not happening the government now has the right to detain you and destroy your life just if they feel like it?  No, that's not happening either.  This does not invalidate the protections under the law for things like false imprisonment and undue process.  It's true that they are eliminating due process for "enemy combatants", but that's been on the decline, and pretty much is reserved for people who have made themselves a threat in some way or are foreign.  Again, still wrong.  Not defending it, just trying to make sure the correct information is being angered at.

I trust pure greed (or mostly) a lot more than greed mixed with various polluted ideals, might makes right, and vast bureaucracy.

That idea presumes that both government and corporations cant be equally infected with bureaucracy, poisoned ideals, etc.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2013, 08:19:11 PM »
EDIT: @Raineh: really?  So your saying that with this wiretapping that's not happening the government now has the right to detain you and destroy your life just if they feel like it?  No, that's not happening either.  This does not invalidate the protections under the law for things like false imprisonment and undue process.  It's true that they are eliminating due process for "enemy combatants", but that's been on the decline, and pretty much is reserved for people who have made themselves a threat in some way or are foreign.  Again, still wrong.  Not defending it, just trying to make sure the correct information is being angered at.

I trust pure greed (or mostly) a lot more than greed mixed with various polluted ideals, might makes right, and vast bureaucracy.

That idea presumes that both government and corporations cant be equally infected with bureaucracy, poisoned ideals, etc.


Which one is founded on particular ideals?

Eh, that's enough politics for me for one week. I'm trying to become less jaded, not more.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2013, 08:24:35 PM »
Which one is founded on particular ideals?

Eh, that's enough politics for me for one week. I'm trying to become less jaded, not more.

Might I recommend getting emeralded instead?  And by emeralded I mean drinking Emerald Isle Irish Whiskey.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Egocentric Bastards...
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2013, 08:25:31 PM »
Which one is founded on particular ideals?

Eh, that's enough politics for me for one week. I'm trying to become less jaded, not more.

Might I recommend getting emeralded instead?  And by emeralded I mean drinking Emerald Isle Irish Whiskey.

I don't think drink is going to help me find the idealism I lost at some point. :p