Author Topic: Keeping Class/Role Distinctive Without Power Disparity  (Read 3944 times)

Offline InnaBinder

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Keeping Class/Role Distinctive Without Power Disparity
« on: December 07, 2011, 10:31:44 AM »
Most systems that I can think of allow for various niches to be filled via a class or at least a role mechanic.  Fighters/Barbarians are assumed to fill a tank role in 3.5, while Rogues, Wizards, and Clerics are typically associated with other niches in the game.  Other D&D and d20 games follow a similar model, as do RIFTS, Warhammer Fantasy, NWoD, and on and on.

In practice, the roles wind up as (apparently) unintended limiters on character power, with certain presumably necessary roles being notably weaker than others.  Players work around these issues by gentlemen's agreements, by using classes the designers didn't intend to fill those niches - like Druid as the party's Tank in 3.5 - or by simply ignoring certain theoretically needed roles.

If we agree that a party needs diversity of roles from a mechanical and general interest perspective, what methods can we point to for minimizing the power disparity inherent in certain roles?  Short of having everyone take the strongest classes and bending them to fit into a given role - for those games with actual classes - what remedies are there?   
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 09:41:02 AM by InnaBinder »
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Keeping Class/Role Distinctive Without Power Disparity
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 02:24:46 PM »
Well, are you talking from a player or designer perspective?

From a player perspective, you have no choice but to branch out oftentimes. The norm needs to be supported by game design, so the norm can only be followed if it is supported!

From a design perspective, making everyone a little more equal in terms of power is the way to go. When one person expends the same resources pursuing one path of optimization, they should be as successful in that regard as another person putting the same resources into another path.

Example: the sneak should be able to steal, hide, and move about unnoticed as well as a tank who has put the same permanent resources into tanking.

The problem comes in when someone sinks less resources than a "specialist" into a style of play and is still as or more successful. You see an example of this with a tank fighter being surpassed by a tank druid, even when all of the fighter's class features are geared towards tanking. He can still never match a well-made druid.

To put it another way, in a point-buy system, people putting the same number of points into any one character goal should be as successful and no more successful in achieving that goal than someone else with another goal. If the sneak can sneak fairly well, but the wizard can blow up worlds, and these two have invested the same number of points in their character designs, the system has failed.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Keeping Class/Role Distinctive Without Power Disparity
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2011, 02:35:18 PM »
But then you run into the problem of the intended roles having more or less effectiveness.  No matter how good the sneak is at sneaking, it's significantly less effective than, say, BFC.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Keeping Class/Role Distinctive Without Power Disparity
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 02:39:19 PM »
Well, are you talking from a player or designer perspective?

From a player perspective, you have no choice but to branch out oftentimes. The norm needs to be supported by game design, so the norm can only be followed if it is supported!

From a design perspective, making everyone a little more equal in terms of power is the way to go. When one person expends the same resources pursuing one path of optimization, they should be as successful in that regard as another person putting the same resources into another path.

Example: the sneak should be able to steal, hide, and move about unnoticed as well as a tank who has put the same permanent resources into tanking.

The problem comes in when someone sinks less resources than a "specialist" into a style of play and is still as or more successful. You see an example of this with a tank fighter being surpassed by a tank druid, even when all of the fighter's class features are geared towards tanking. He can still never match a well-made druid.

To put it another way, in a point-buy system, people putting the same number of points into any one character goal should be as successful and no more successful in achieving that goal than someone else with another goal. If the sneak can sneak fairly well, but the wizard can blow up worlds, and these two have invested the same number of points in their character designs, the system has failed.
Part of the issue is that two areas of specialization that, theoretically, should be roughly equally useful, simply aren't in most systems.  The "sneak vs. tank" example is a useful one in this regard.  In many systems, the role of the sneak is necessary/useful from a metagame perspective, but terribly suboptimal in actual play, in comparison to the tank role and other iconic roles.  Either the sneak doesn't get to engage efficiently in combat - a major part of many RPGs - or the sneak engages in combat because the enemy was built to detect him, or both.  Non-combat situations have to either be built with the sneak in mind, or leave him floundering for something to do.  You get the idea.

See also, sirpercival's ninja'd comment.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Keeping Class/Role Distinctive Without Power Disparity
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 12:04:25 AM »
The usefulness of specialization is definitely an issue thats hard to anticipate, not all types of challenges appear in all games. One possible mitigation(not actually a solution), is to reduce the degree of ultra specialization, mark out at least one ability from each category(a crude one would be social, skill, knowledge and combat) for them to treat as a secondary role. Not as strong as in their primary focus, but they would have something to bring to bear in each of the types of situations rather than having to become a liability, or worse, sitting it out entirely.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Keeping Class/Role Distinctive Without Power Disparity
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2011, 08:02:57 AM »
The usefulness of specialization is definitely an issue thats hard to anticipate, not all types of challenges appear in all games. One possible mitigation(not actually a solution), is to reduce the degree of ultra specialization, mark out at least one ability from each category(a crude one would be social, skill, knowledge and combat) for them to treat as a secondary role. Not as strong as in their primary focus, but they would have something to bring to bear in each of the types of situations rather than having to become a liability, or worse, sitting it out entirely.
How does one accomplish this without laying bare the metagame?
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Keeping Class/Role Distinctive Without Power Disparity
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2011, 09:54:10 AM »
The usefulness of specialization is definitely an issue thats hard to anticipate, not all types of challenges appear in all games. One possible mitigation(not actually a solution), is to reduce the degree of ultra specialization, mark out at least one ability from each category(a crude one would be social, skill, knowledge and combat) for them to treat as a secondary role. Not as strong as in their primary focus, but they would have something to bring to bear in each of the types of situations rather than having to become a liability, or worse, sitting it out entirely.
How does one accomplish this without laying bare the metagame?
Refer to character creation for thoughts on that subject, particularly Skill Spheres and Specialization. Let the player glimpse the metagame just enough to get what they want out of it.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 09:58:20 AM by SneeR »
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Offline veekie

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Re: Keeping Class/Role Distinctive Without Power Disparity
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2011, 03:10:04 PM »
Or you can build availability of secondary abilities in as a given function. So for example, you have a melee oriented warrior class, so you have Combat(melee) as a primary ability.
You build in a degree of limited social competency, giving them a limited range of social ability, namely sensing motives and gut level intimidation/inspiration skills. This gives Secondary(social).
Finally you add in mental competencies, giving them built in problem solving abilities(mostly knowledges and crafting abilities)

To have a little more variety you could also drop one of those spheres from the class and grant it via race. Its of course, very vague until you got actual mechanics to write it onto.
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