Author Topic: Discussion  (Read 8074 times)

Offline TheGeometer

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Discussion
« on: August 05, 2014, 01:45:40 PM »
This will be the only thread in this sub-board in which you will see any usernames besides mine in the top-left corner of a post. I'm going to lock all of the other threads, simply because I would like them to look as clean and ordered as gleaming toys in factory-sealed plastic boxes. Please do not hesitate to voice any questions, comments, criticisms, suggestions, and miscellaneous reactions you might have as a result of anything you read in this board. And... go!

This is the long-awaited second chapter of the "book," and I'm seriously excited to write it! Everything in the above quote from chapter 1 applies in this subforum, too (okay, technically, you'll see other usernames on posts after everything is finished and people start making homebrew about this system). Chapter 2 will be shorter and hopefully with fewer revisions, since I learned a lot from the last time I tried something like this, so I'm almost positive that this will take a lot less time than Remnant Magic did. If you all contribute at least as much as you did to chapter 1, this will turn out really well.

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2014, 03:38:03 PM »
Hooray, a new one!

Offline TheGeometer

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 02:43:44 AM »
Thanks! I'm glad to finally be working on this!

So, let's hit the ground running. The concept for this system is straightforward: you produce spell-like effects in unlimited quantities, but not without the spirit harming you in some way. There are a number of ways to go about this, but the most important thing is that it not have any obvious holes in it for characters to exploit. Here are some of the potential problems with the concept:

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Taking the clearest route out of all of these problems that doesn't lead to any obvious new problems leaves me with this current plan: whenever you cast a spirit-spell (haven't named them yet), your spirit gains a slot of 1 level lower. The spirit starts with no slots and can cast from one of them once per round, losing them at the end of the day. The DM decides when it casts, what it casts, and on whom it casts. All the player decides is the level of the effects it has access to. This plan solves the first two problems with DM choices, and tackles the 3rd problem by abandoning points in favor of slots that increase with the level of the effect you use. PCs will be unable to keep their spirits from using higher-level effects unless they forgo higher-level effects as well.

So, let me know what you think of the core mechanic. I'm starting with a discussion rather than just posting it because, unlike what I did with remnat magic (remember "residuum?"), I want to take this slow and do it right as well as I can the first time.

Offline samnemath

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2014, 06:10:20 AM »
I have an idea, although it is not on your list so I am unsure if it fits the concept.

What if every time you cast a spell you give the spirit a little freedom to act in the material world. Resenting you and your allies it uses its little freedom to distract you.

What it boils down to is that its time you use a spirit to cast a spell the DM get 1 point per spell level, and by expending these points he can rain misfortune on the players which may include:

rerolls
flat penalties
single person affected by a spell
person considered flannked
etc

These points dissapear after the encounter, keeping bookkeeping to a minimum.

Offline TheGeometer

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2014, 10:18:48 AM »
Yeah, that's basically what I was going for. It seems to me like all of the things you mentioned could be harmful spell effects, so your idea is pretty much the same as my general concept already.

The idea of the spirit gaining points rather than slots is an interesting one, though. It essentially functions like my concept, except that it discourages the repetitive use of lower-level effects more, since the spirit would be able to use high-level effects from that. It also means that if you use a lot of out-of-battle effects, the spirit will hit you with a bunch of powerful things without throwing in the weak stuff. I'm not sure I like the sound of it. And having the points not rack up after and outside of combat isn't an option, since it gives you free casting between encounters.

Offline samnemath

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2014, 10:45:12 AM »
Yes, you are right about not disappearing after the encounter.

It would give the spirit the choice to release one big effect rather than many small ones, and this could be a problem.

Perhaps combined with a mechanic for getting rid of points?

Offline TheGeometer

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2014, 01:01:48 PM »
I think that would essentially be the same as the spirit just gaining less points, from a balance standpoint. It doesn't change the fact that the spirit could pool its points together and kill you with them.

Offline samnemath

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2014, 01:13:12 PM »
Hmmm I get your point. Besides putting an artificial ceiling on how many points the spirit can spend in one go, I don't see another way to limit it.

How many spirits will you have at the same time?


Offline TheGeometer

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2014, 02:51:38 PM »
Just one. Flavor-wise, even a single spirit can grant you basically unlimited power, so there's no reason to ally with another.

So, to review, the direction that I'm currently planning on taking spirit magic is that, like magic, there will be spell effects of levels 0 through 9, but unlike magic, you can cast these at will (you still won't be able to cast spells of higher level than half your CL, rounded up). However, each time you cast one, an entity called an aligned spirit (played by the DM) which follows you around and can't be affected by anything gains a spell-like slot of one level lower. From that point until the end of the day, they can expend that slot at any time to cast a spell of that level (or less) that inconveniences you in some way.

Does anyone see any issues with that? Balance-wise, implementation-wise? You can tell me if it's not creative enough or if it's wonderful, too. I'll take all of the comments I can get; now's the time to tell me, before I start building the whole system around this concept.

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4508
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2014, 06:21:40 PM »
So the power is balanced by your DM being asked to be a dick?

Offline TheGeometer

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2014, 02:42:45 AM »
 :) Um... yes? Well, really it's no different than the DM controlling monsters to fight you. The spirit acts kind of like a spellcasting monster that's in every encounter and isn't quite as powerful as you.

Offline YouLostMe

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 07:34:19 PM »
:) Um... yes? Well, really it's no different than the DM controlling monsters to fight you. The spirit acts kind of like a spellcasting monster that's in every encounter and isn't quite as powerful as you.

I disagree. It's as if you were regularly attacked by a spellcasting monster that knows the plans, motivations, and greatest weaknesses of you and all your allies, and can follow you around all day waiting for the perfect moment, and there is no way to defeat this monster other than putting down your dice and not playing. That's very anti-fun, and I can see players resenting the fact that their friend gets to play a stronger character and will randomly attempt to kill them.

I strongly suggest reworking your base concept. I would prefer to see a Spirit-unique condition track that culminates in extremely short-duration mind control which follows a specific template. That way you could have shamans that tap into the power of the spirits but can't press their luck alongside channelers who pick one spirit and base their entire combat strategy around what it wants.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 07:40:26 PM by YouLostMe »

Offline Garryl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4508
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 08:33:16 AM »
:) Um... yes? Well, really it's no different than the DM controlling monsters to fight you. The spirit acts kind of like a spellcasting monster that's in every encounter and isn't quite as powerful as you.

I disagree. It's as if you were regularly attacked by a spellcasting monster that knows the plans, motivations, and greatest weaknesses of you and all your allies, and can follow you around all day waiting for the perfect moment, and there is no way to defeat this monster other than putting down your dice and not playing. That's very anti-fun, and I can see players resenting the fact that their friend gets to play a stronger character and will randomly attempt to kill them.

Thank you! I've been trying to think of how to say that every time I came back to this, and you've found the words I've been grasping at.

Quote
I strongly suggest reworking your base concept. I would prefer to see a Spirit-unique condition track that culminates in extremely short-duration mind control which follows a specific template. That way you could have shamans that tap into the power of the spirits but can't press their luck alongside channelers who pick one spirit and base their entire combat strategy around what it wants.

This idea sounds awfully similar to Binders from Tome of Magic, though. Bind a vestige, get its abilities, but follow its influence or take increasingly severe penalties over the course of the day.

Offline YouLostMe

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2014, 04:27:16 PM »
Thank you! I've been trying to think of how to say that every time I came back to this, and you've found the words I've been grasping at.
I was looking for the words myself. Glad to help.

Quote
This idea sounds awfully similar to Binders from Tome of Magic, though. Bind a vestige, get its abilities, but follow its influence or take increasingly severe penalties over the course of the day.
:blush You're right, I hadn't really considered that...

Offline TheGeometer

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2014, 02:24:04 PM »
Well, one thing that might dissuade you is something I've been meaning to change in the description thread, which is that the spirit can only use its abilities right after the character's initiative in combat. This will stop it from randomly setting everything on fire while you're on a diplomatic quest.

That said, I agree that, while balanced in theory, this system might not be very fun for exactly the reasons you guys have mentioned. I'm trying to think of ways to fix that, and I'm open to suggestions. Still, I don't want to lose the basic concept, which is that spirit magic characters have more power than spellcasters but face a lesser hindrance for each effect they produce. I still think it's possible to tune that concept into something that works without scrapping the idea altogether.

Offline YouLostMe

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2014, 05:57:27 PM »
Making the events occur after your initiative is definitely better, but these are the current beefs I have with the system as it stands:
  • Requiring the DM to do extra work just to deal with the basic mechanics of this class. It's not self-contained, like a psion tracking his own power points or a wizard tracking/memorizing his daily spells.
  • Encouraging a "DM v. Player" mentality that I think will hurt the group dynamic in real life.
  • Making other players unhappy because the guy playing with them contributes more with his actions
  • Making other players unhappy because the guy playing with them will unpredictably attack them

If you agree that those are problems, then I think a new system just needs to be within those bounds. Maybe roll on a backlash table each time you use a spirit power, and keep the backlashes mostly personal.

So for example, I'll spitball a system draft. I don't know the mechanics of the spirit spells so I'm making something up here.

Wrath Portfolio
All of the spirits in the wrath portfolio grant different abilities for tearing your opponents to pieces or giving yourself incredible strength. When using an ability, roll on the wrath backlash table. For a least spirit, roll a d4. For a lesser spirit, roll a d8. For a greater spirit, roll a d12. For a d20. Look at the result on the table and the effect happens to your character.
RollEffect
1Deal yourself 1 fire damage per HD you have.
2Apply a -1 penalty to your saves for 1 round.
3You cannot move but gain a +1 to hit and to damage for 1 round.
4On your next turn you cannot make a ranged attack, and you must charge unless you are in a creature's threatened area.
5The next attack action you make must be a grapple attempt.
...and so on

Neevil the Raging Imp (Least): Make an attack. A successful attack deals damage as normal and deals 2 Dexterity damage.

Gorbol, Earth-Breaker (Least): Increase your size by 1 category as if under an enlarge person spell.

Keshh the Ironbound (Least): You gain DR 2/- for 10 rounds. This increases by 1 for every 2 levels you have.

Name (category): Words
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 06:02:13 PM by YouLostMe »

Offline TheGeometer

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2014, 02:08:07 AM »
YLM, I'm really impressed with the work you put into this. Not only do I recognize that the flaws you bring up are valid ones, but they're all issues that have troubled me in the past. One problem that I've thought of extensively is that this system places extra burdens on the DM. I considered a solution where the player herself takes control of the spirit, role-playing both a character and that character's opposition, but while some players would leap at the chance to try that, the credibility issues were too much to handle. I also thought about introducing randomness, but if that's ultimately what I go with, I'm going to need to be more careful than just making a list like the one you suggested.

Here's the thing: the punishments to the player need to be unavoidable. There should not be any incentive for the player to change her character just to avoid specific punishments (in your list, that would be a fire-resistant charging grappler). Any list at all would be too limited, unless it's large enough that its effects can't be accounted for. Even with an expansive list, being undead or a construct would probably give a player a significant chance of avoiding their own backlash, which is definitely not what I'm going for. I have yet to come up with a solution that works as effectively as having another person decide which effect occurs, though as you noted, that creates problems of its own.

So, we've established that randomness can deal with the first two problems you laid out. I initially considered that approach and rejected it, but you've made me rethink it, and it might be what I end up going with to some extent. As for the last two problems, focusing the effects on the player would deal with both of them, I think. Being the only one on her team being hindered by her effects will prevent her from being resented for her power or her ill effects. This was definitely something else that your system example did.

Over the next few days, I'm going to think about how to add the more random backlash element while minimizing the backlash's effect on allies and the player's attempts to avoid the backlash. Still, I have to stress that there are elements of this system that I like personally and would rather alter than discard. For instance, the role of the alignments in the system I set up. I like that it thematically presents every possible combination of aiding and harming. Having just two sets of effects, one for harming and one for helping, appeals to me in much the same way. These ideas lead to a single, alignment-driven presence that acts against the player, so it's natural that Spirit Magic ended up as it did. Balance is my top priority, as it should be for any new subsystem, but I'm going to carry these ideas as far as they can go unless it proves to be truly impossible to balance that.

By the way, I'm really glad that people are helping me with these issues again. Hammering this stuff out before I make the classes was exactly my goal in this discussion.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 11:34:44 AM by TheGeometer »

Offline YouLostMe

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2014, 08:56:56 PM »
I'm glad to help. :) I thought your remnant system was incredibly cool and I would love to see your brewing skills in action.

I agree that, especially in a system as big as 3.5, players are going to have tons of ways to build around their weaknesses. I'm not sure how to avoid that, but I'll chew on it and watch this space.

Offline TheGeometer

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2014, 09:15:22 PM »
So, after a lot of pondering, here's my solution: rather than the DM choosing which dogma gets used against the character, it is rolled randomly from the character's list of known dogmas. This works really well for good and evil characters, since what gets used against them is already the same type of thing as what they cast.

For lawful characters, they get both options: use a beneficial dogma on your allies, and a beneficial dogma gets cast on your enemies as well; use a detrimental dogma on your enemies, and your allies will get hit with a random detrimental dogma. This has more variation than the good and evil characters, but it's balanced out since the total number of dogmas known (both beneficial and detrimental) will be less for the lawful character than for the good or evil.

Chaotic characters also get both options, but reversed: their beneficial dogmas result in detrimental dogmas used against them, and vice versa. In order to prevent chaotic characters from favoring one type and making the other list deliberately bad in order to reduce damage to them, chaotic characters will have an additional restriction. Before casting, they flip a d2, and that indicates whether they must use a beneficial or a detrimental dogma that round. They can still choose which dogma of that type to express, or they can choose not to express that round at all.

Let me know if you guys spot any holes in that idea. It seems solid to me, but it's very possible that I missed something obvious.

Offline YouLostMe

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Discussion
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2014, 06:51:16 PM »
I like it. But I would prefer if the coin-flip were used to determine the type of dogma chaotic characters got hit with, instead of determining the type of dogma they get to use. So they still can't build to avoid one type of punishment, but they don't feel like they're losing agency.