Author Topic: Discussion  (Read 12013 times)

Offline dman11235

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Discussion
« on: March 12, 2012, 09:59:01 AM »
Post all your general discussion of the system here.

All updates completed.  I may have missed something.  It's kind of a large project.

I do need a discussion on monsters.  I hadn't planned on making new monsters (instead just re-fluffing existing ones seems like a good instruction), but if there needs to be a specific monster, let me know.  I'd be happy to get some help in this aspect, if anyone wishes to design monsters (*cough*bhu*chough*).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 11:14:40 PM by dman11235 »
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Offline Risada

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 06:35:43 PM »
I am reading through your work right now (awesome stuff, BTW) and noticed this:

Quote from: Control Winds
You control the wind speed in a large area.  The DC required to change the wind speed varies based on how much you wish to change the wind speed and how high the speed already is.  Choose a location within range for the origination point

It looks like something is missing from Control Winds's text...

@Monsters: aside from the flying bison and some other random animal... what kind of monsters need to be created?

Offline Prime32

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 08:12:41 PM »
@Monsters: aside from the flying bison and some other random animal... what kind of monsters need to be created?
http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Fauna in the World of Avatar

Offline dman11235

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 08:56:21 PM »
I am reading through your work right now (awesome stuff, BTW) and noticed this:

Quote from: Control Winds
You control the wind speed in a large area.  The DC required to change the wind speed varies based on how much you wish to change the wind speed and how high the speed already is.  Choose a location within range for the origination point

It looks like something is missing from Control Winds's text...

@Monsters: aside from the flying bison and some other random animal... what kind of monsters need to be created?

There should be a table giving the wind speeds.  Apparently I don't have one?

Also, I'm going to change to organization of this a bit soon.  All of the rules threads will be moving somewhat, seed lists moving to posts in the overview for one.

EDIT: First off, moving around of things is done.  Second off, I have no idea what happened to the other half of that seed.  I think it got cut on accident with whatever was after it, but I'll try to rebuild it tomorrow.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 10:04:40 PM by dman11235 »
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2012, 01:14:01 PM »
I added my mundane fire fixes to this.  Even though I want that used in all campaigns, it's more applicable to this project.  I actually wrote those fixes for this project, but posted them early because they are still applicable to normal campaigns.
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Offline Sodalite

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 09:07:47 PM »
Will you be including content from Legend of Korra? Things like those weird, presumably anti-bending, suits some of the Equalists wear?

Offline dman11235

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 09:22:13 AM »
Eventually, probably.  My setting is an alternate universe from that one, althoguh potentially not.  It takes place 500-1000 years after the original series takes place, after an event that wipeout out much of the technology.  I still need to come up with items and the creatures of the show, although the classes/feats/PrCs were the only thing I needed to finish to post this.
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Offline littha

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2012, 09:31:57 AM »
Unless I missed it you probably need "wall of" along with something along the lines of Move Earth in the bender...

Offline dman11235

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 12:24:08 PM »
huh?  Earthbending should have the Wall of Earth and Move Earth seeds in it.
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Offline littha

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2012, 12:38:46 PM »
You may want to put a link to the seeds in the bender class, its rather odd having a class split over two threads. Other than that, you may have to be careful to avoid the truenamer problem with your bending skill checks.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 12:41:42 PM by littha »

Offline dman11235

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 12:52:40 PM »
I knew I forgot to do something!

As for the skill checks: it's not a skill.  If you read the bending overview, it's a class bonus+wis+misc. check.  I specifically changed it to this to avoid the Truenamer problem.
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Offline littha

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2012, 02:48:20 PM »
There are several aspects of that problem, the high bonuses are the one you solved. The other is having a chance to fail to use your class abilities is not good.

Offline dman11235

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2012, 07:28:12 PM »
I did solve that problem too.  There's no scaling DC (a DC 20 blast will be DC 20 always), and you can take 10 in most situations, including combat, so you should be able to do level appropriate effects at all times.  Again, these things should be in the overview.

Actually, this thing is so far off from the Truenamer that it's not even a fair comparison anymore.  It's not skill, it's class level, and it doesn't scale, and you can take 10, and I actually paid attention to expected levels of power.
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Offline littha

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2012, 03:06:11 AM »
Why bother using a DC at all if you cant fail. And if you can fail it comes back to wasted combat actions.

Offline dman11235

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2012, 11:33:27 AM »
Two reasons, one: if you want/need a more powerful version, and two: you can't take 10 if threatened.  Due to the way augments work, even if you roll you might not have a chance of failing.  If you use an increase augment to up the DC beyond what you automatically hit, then you have a chance of failing, but if you don't, you can just cash in on exceed augments if you roll well, or just have a slightly weaker version if you roll poorly.

Again, read the overview.  All of your concerns have been addressed in there.
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Offline littha

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2012, 12:14:57 PM »
I have read it, my major point is WHY bother using a DC based scaling system, it doesn't really add all that much to the game.

If you intend to keep to level relevant effects then why give the option of using higher level ones?
If you need to augment to remain relevant then you get the failure issues (as you cant take 10 in combat)
If you don't need to augment to remain relevant then why risk failing.

In any case other than that I had a look over the earthbending stuff, and grabbed anything that looked like it needed thought:
Earthbending-
1. Armor seed is pitiful +9 AC at level 20 and unable to wear medium/heavy armor sucks. Also Duration: Concentration makes it even worse
2. Density needs a line about unattended nonmagical objects as per every other ability that grants a save to objects.
3. Dirt spray is bad compared to similar effects like glitterdust and Blindness/Deafness (and blindness is a bad spell) ]
4. Dust cloud seems like it should be air bending.
5. Earth blast references a chart but has no link
6. the Headcracker description seems like it should be a save or die, not a way of ignoring hardness.
7. Probably add some way of crushing the person you have Imprisoned by making the box smaller.
8. Might want to make the DC on Puppet higher considering its nearly a non mind effecting Dominate Monster.
9. Quake's wording needs some work, expanded see below. Also think about making the DCs scale from the user. 
10. Rubble wave is just bad, compare to earth wave.
11. Possibly grant tectonic an augment for a larger than 5' change.
12. In general there is a lot of bull rushing here, consider clarifying how bending interacts with feats.

Quake:
Quote
The squares affected become difficult terrain, and creatures attempting to pass through must use 4 squares of movement or take 1d4 damage.  Those unconcerned with the damage may move through using 2 squares of movement.
Unconcerned is a strange word to use and is confusing, does that mean unaffected creatures or creatures that feel no pain?
Quote
Subjects may make a balance check to move at half speed or full speed through the affected area.  The DC is 20 for half speed, and 30 for full speed.  A failure of 4 or less means they cannot move further that turn.  A failure of 5 or more means they fall prone.

Anyone damaged by Quake loses speed as if they stepped on a caltrop.  When used on sand or loose dirt, the spikes do not remain on subsequent rounds.

There is a lot of text referencing speed modifiers, why would you bother taking the 1d4 damage if it counted as you stepping on a caltrop and affected your speed anyway? Does the balance check allow you to ignore the 1d4 damage or 1/4 speed penalty (I assume so but it is laid out in a confusing manner)


Anyway, hopefully the criticism is constructive. If you like I can look at the other bending disciplines later tonight.

Offline dman11235

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2012, 04:53:11 PM »
For your first three "ifs":

if you try to go above your "take 10" value, then you're taking a risk, and if you succeed, then your seed is more powerful than what it normally would be.  If you fail, you fail and the attempt to be more powerful was wasted.  You can still take 10 in most situations, including combat (this is NOT A SKILL, it follows different rules, and the only thing that prevents you from taking 10 is being threatened).  The only reason to risk failing is if you, for some reason, need extra power.  Otherwise there are uses for rolling wihtout a risk to fail.  The exceed augments don't increase the DC of the seed.  So, for instance, Boulder Toss.  You start with a DC of 30, and can either take that as is, or increase it by 6 points to affect an additional target.  If you do increase the DC, it is now DC 36, and you'd need a check of +26 to take 10 and succeed.  If I instead had a check of +35, I could roll, and not risk failure, but have a chance at getting an even higher bonus to the bull rush, so if I rolled a 5 I'd get +1, if I took 10 I'd get a +2, and if I rolled a 17 I'd get +4.

I am expecting most people to just take 10 pretty much all the time, but the rolling allows for some chance in the power.  You will almost never even have a chance at failing a bending check, because you can always choose to just not increase the DC, and with most seeds, it'll still be relevant thanks to the exceed augments.

1: I forgot to add the augment that makes the concentration a swift/free action, and the DR is supposed to be the real power.  I may up the AC bonus, but it shouldn't be much of a problem (it's 1/2 Inertial Armor progression, but you add DR and energy resistance to it).  The main power from this one comes from the exceed (well, it should be exceed) augment that grants DR.

2: I'll add it, it should have been there already.

3: It's not an area blinding.  It's a targetted effect that deals damage and has a chance to blind on a failed save, and on a successful save they still take a penalty.  And again, you can increase the DC, damage, or duratino of the blinding using augments.  The save is an exceed augment, so you can forgo most of the damage to force them to make a high DC save against the blinding.  Not only that, but I'm not basing my balance on tier 1 classes or casting in general.  Screw casting.

4: It's also an airbending seed.  The difference: air uses wind to whip up dust, and earth moves the individual particles to whip up the dust.

5: I'll add more words, but it's referencing the Bender class chart.

6: Why?  It's not an SoD.  It's not changing to one.

7: I took that out.  I didn't want it in there, and there's a different way of doing that.  This isn't intended to be a SoD, it's more of a capture thing rather than the spell Imprison.  The PrC Agent of the Dai Li has a more advanced version, where they take you into the ground, rather than this one, where you shoot arms of earth up to grab someone.  This does not pull you into the ground like the spell does.

8:  First off, it lasts only a few rounds.  Also, it ends when you lose sight of the target.  Finally, it can't force the target to take any mental action.  So it's more limiting in many ways, but less limiting in some others.  With that in mind, is it still too powerful?  Oh, and you can't affect just anyone, it has to be a creature with the Earth subtype.

9: The "unconcerned" thing is supposed to be "you can move through using only 2 squares of movement, but you automatically take damage".  There's some extra words that shouldn't be in that seed though.

10: Okay...what's the problem?  One is a line, the other is a cone.  One moves creatures better, the other deals more damage.  I'm going to switch the damage though, it should have been 1d6 for the rubble, and 1d4 for the wave.

11: There is.

12: is there any confusion?  If not it's fine, but if there's confusion, then I will clarify where needed.  So where's the confusion?
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Offline littha

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2012, 06:55:27 PM »
Quote
You can still take 10 in most situations, including combat (this is NOT A SKILL, it follows different rules, and the only thing that prevents you from taking 10 is being threatened).

I assume by threatened you mean "While in a threatened square", rather than the rules on taking 10 that define combat itself as a threat. Forgive me for the confusion.

1: I forgot to add the augment that makes the concentration a swift/free action, and the DR is supposed to be the real power.  I may up the AC bonus, but it shouldn't be much of a problem (it's 1/2 Inertial Armor progression, but you add DR and energy resistance to it).  The main power from this one comes from the exceed (well, it should be exceed) augment that grants DR.
I would also drop the limitation on armor, it seems overly penalizing. Why have it concentration based rather than duration based anyway? It would probably work fine as an hour/level buff to be honest.

Quote
3: It's not an area blinding.  It's a targetted effect that deals damage and has a chance to blind on a failed save, and on a successful save they still take a penalty.  And again, you can increase the DC, damage, or duratino of the blinding using augments.  The save is an exceed augment, so you can forgo most of the damage to force them to make a high DC save against the blinding.  Not only that, but I'm not basing my balance on tier 1 classes or casting in general.  Screw casting.
The reason people would use this seed rather than one of the more damaging ones is for the blindness. I understand you are not balancing off casters but try not to nerf your effects too much. Blindness/deafness gets permanent blindness for a 2nd level spell and its not anywhere near a good spell.

Quote
4: It's also an airbending seed.  The difference: air uses wind to whip up dust, and earth moves the individual particles to whip up the dust.
Probably needs a new description along those lines then, currently it references wind whipping up dust.

Quote
6: Why?  It's not an SoD.  It's not changing to one.
I suggest working on the description, not the effect. Manipulating peoples bones should do more than ignore hardness...

Quote
7: I took that out.  I didn't want it in there, and there's a different way of doing that.  This isn't intended to be a SoD, it's more of a capture thing rather than the spell Imprison.  The PrC Agent of the Dai Li has a more advanced version, where they take you into the ground, rather than this one, where you shoot arms of earth up to grab someone.  This does not pull you into the ground like the spell does.

Just seemed like that effect should be there, that's all. I have obviously been watching too much naruto recently... (Gaara does this a lot)
Quote
8:  First off, it lasts only a few rounds.  Also, it ends when you lose sight of the target.  Finally, it can't force the target to take any mental action.  So it's more limiting in many ways, but less limiting in some others.  With that in mind, is it still too powerful?  Oh, and you can't affect just anyone, it has to be a creature with the Earth subtype.
Just consider that Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell, I am not saying it is too powerful but I would look carefully at the DC.

Quote
9: The "unconcerned" thing is supposed to be "you can move through using only 2 squares of movement, but you automatically take damage".  There's some extra words that shouldn't be in that seed though.
Gathered as much, just confusingly laid out.

Quote
10: Okay...what's the problem?  One is a line, the other is a cone.  One moves creatures better, the other deals more damage.  I'm going to switch the damage though, it should have been 1d6 for the rubble, and 1d4 for the wave.

Why are they different seeds, you have a whole augment system for this kind of difference.

Quote
11: There is.
I would split the additional squares augment into target squares and amount changed. As it is it is illegal to target an underground square due to line of sight/effect.

Quote
12: is there any confusion?  If not it's fine, but if there's confusion, then I will clarify where needed.  So where's the confusion?
Can you apply your feats to the bull rush effects? (I wouldn't have thought so but it should be clarified) It could be important if someone wants to build a bull rush type earthbender.




I don't know if its just the general difficulty working out the tone of a post (and if it is I apologise) but you come off as rather confrontational. I had assumed you wanted some critical input but if you don't forgive me and I shall leave you alone.


Offline dman11235

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2012, 07:27:35 PM »
1: The seed has you make armor out of earth, so it wouldn't even fit.  Not only that, but armor bonuses don't stack, so wearing armor beneath it would be useless, aside from stacking enhancements.  It's concentration because that's the flavor.  Just about every duration based seed is concentration, because they require constant attention, unlike magic which has the energy concentrate on it for you.  The concentration won't be a probelm for this by level 10 or so.  And earlier, it'll be worth the action.

3: Look in ToB.  There's a maneuver that's basically this same thing.  It's damage, plus an effect that is indeed very powerful at low levels.  At higher levels it's less effective less often, but still effective.  This blinding has a similar duration to Glitterdust, btw.  You have a chance at blinding someone for an encounter, basically.

4: Really?  That's odd.  I actually wrote this one first and copy/pasted to Air, so if anything it sould be the other way around.

10: They are completely different in both effect and flavor.  One is a cone spray of debris, the other is a wave of earth (not a spray, it's like that spell that lets you move around on a wave, only made of, well, earth).

11: That's not an issue.  You can only raise the earth or lower it, and since you can target the same square multiple times, you can raise/lower it multiple levels.  I'll clarify though.

12: no, they do not apply (unless it specifically states that they do).
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Offline littha

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Re: Discussion
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2012, 08:03:36 PM »
1: The seed has you make armor out of earth, so it wouldn't even fit.  Not only that, but armor bonuses don't stack, so wearing armor beneath it would be useless, aside from stacking enhancements.  It's concentration because that's the flavor.  Just about every duration based seed is concentration, because they require constant attention, unlike magic which has the energy concentrate on it for you.  The concentration won't be a probelm for this by level 10 or so.  And earlier, it'll be worth the action.

Flavour is all fine and good but the armor is a pain to use (Concentration is horrible for buffs) and gives crappy bonuses. I would make the AC bonus untyped, so it can stack with your armor (you gave earth benders armor for a reason right?) and add a low cost augment (1 or 2 points)  to maintain as a free action. Otherwise it is just not worth using, sustaining it as a swift action is not viable.

Quote
3: Look in ToB.  There's a maneuver that's basically this same thing.  It's damage, plus an effect that is indeed very powerful at low levels.  At higher levels it's less effective less often, but still effective.  This blinding has a similar duration to Glitterdust, btw.  You have a chance at blinding someone for an encounter, basically.
Which manuver? Clinging shadow strike I assume but that does significantly more damage (it adds 1d6 to your normal damage) whereas dirt spray only deals 1d6. Honestly, people will only want to use it for the blind effect not the chance at around 3 points of damage. Sure you could augment it but the scaling is going to be incredibly slow. like 1d6 per 4 levels slow.

Quote
4: Really?  That's odd.  I actually wrote this one first and copy/pasted to Air, so if anything it sould be the other way around.
Quote
Using a gust of wind, you create a large dust cloud that obscures vision.

Quote
10: They are completely different in both effect and flavor.  One is a cone spray of debris, the other is a wave of earth (not a spray, it's like that spell that lets you move around on a wave, only made of, well, earth).
Different in flavour maybe, but effect wise one is an 8 cube thick line (because you never specified the wave cant be one cube thick and 8 long) and the other is a 15' burst that does less damage. I know which I would use, every single time.