Author Topic: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?  (Read 5010 times)

Offline Fredgerd

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Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« on: March 17, 2015, 04:25:41 PM »
I've been thinking on how to improve the viability of lower tier classes. I'd like to find a way to houserule this so that I can maximize viability with the least possible interference to the rules as they stand.

This is what I've thought of so far:
1. Sudden Strike = Sneak Attack; If it smells like sneak attack, and replacing it with sneak attack makes it all around better, its sneak attack. This buffs Ninja and a number of prestige classes.
2. Using the Power Ingredients variant seems like a good way to increase the usefulness of Rangers and Barbarians to the party, since their high survival checks can give them a new way to be useful to the party as well as providing them with an extra revenue stream unavailable to other classes. Druids might need to be nerfed or banned as a result though.

I'm still trying to think of a way to give Monks and Paladins a helping hand, as well as some of the non-core classes. I'd like to find some way to create some transparency between ki using classes. I'd like to see Paladins get some increased potential for Special Mounts (most interesting feature IMO). I'd also like to find a way to make multiclassing easier on knights since they seem like they have good potential as a tank class but all their abilities seem to scale with class level.

Also, I'm curious, has anyone ever used power ingredients before? If so, how'd it work out. I can see possible problems down the line but the flavor and benefits seem really good.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2015, 05:28:49 PM »
Removing a lot of creatures' sneak attack immunity would help, too.  I'd also considering making a lot of per day abilities per encounter, or having a recharging pool of stuff like ki that replaces each encounter.

You might take a look at Pathfinder for a lot of this.  Their underlying math is ... well, poor generally.  But, making Tier 3s with a bunch of abilities seems to be their business model.  Of course, they've left the Tier 1s there, and even added to them, but I think at present they're hoping we don't notice.

The other option that springs to mind is either encouraging or cannibalizing prestige classes.  The Hellbreaker of whatever it's called in FC2 makes a nice tank/Paladin guy, and has some nice recurring abilities.  It's not a great PrC, but adding its abilities to something like a Knight or Paladin might give them some stuff.

Also, this might be the obvious answer, but ToB?

Offline Fredgerd

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2015, 02:17:27 PM »
I'd also considering making a lot of per day abilities per encounter, or having a recharging pool of stuff like ki that replaces each encounter.
I like this idea alot. I might impliment that. Though in some cases, like Barbarian Rage, it seems a bit absurd to be able to do it more than once per encounter (since times per day increases). Might as well just give rage as a permanent stat bonus in that case. I guess it'd have to be only for abilities with a one round or less duration?


Also, this might be the obvious answer, but ToB?

That is the obvious answer but doesn't do what I'm going for which is to make the traditional t4 and below classes more viable. ToB has a distinct sort of flavor to it. Swordsage in particular feels very wuxia. Alot of people I know prefer the original classes in terms of flavor and I'd like to make that viable in my campaigns.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 02:20:21 PM by Fredgerd »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2015, 10:01:30 PM »
Being T3 means the character has a niche it shines in (and doesn't go nuclear at like T2 does) but also has other areas where it can still be relevant in.  Alas, one of the key things to note is damage is not usually seen as much of a worthwhile niche unless nice chunks of it come with other stuff such as buffing the character or debuffing the enemy.

So what needs to happen is an analysis of why each low tier class is in that tier to begin with.

Example for fighter:  Lack of skills, generally lackluster feat options, good feats often taking too many other feats to get first, inability to both specialize in one area and still be useful if that one thing isn't what's needed at the time.

Dungeoncrasher and Imperious Command+Zhentarim Soldier are noted as bumping the fighter from T5 to T4.  That's partly because they offer distinct and powerful abilities while still leaving room for other ways to be somewhat useful.  Dungeoncrasher allows the fighter to make use of battlefield control and deal damage in the process.  Imperious Command+ZS robs the enemy of actions and makes them more vulnerable to being hit while also not taking up as many precious actions like Intimidate normally does in combat.

Some of the classes aren't really able to have "quick fixes" given to them to bring them up to T3.  T4 is probably easier to pull off.

For what it's worth, it's generally agreed that feat rogue is T3.  The combination of all those feats and the skills and such means the character can definitely specialize while still being useful in other places.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 10:04:09 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2015, 11:23:38 PM »
I'd also considering making a lot of per day abilities per encounter, or having a recharging pool of stuff like ki that replaces each encounter.
I like this idea alot. I might impliment that. Though in some cases, like Barbarian Rage, it seems a bit absurd to be able to do it more than once per encounter (since times per day increases). Might as well just give rage as a permanent stat bonus in that case. I guess it'd have to be only for abilities with a one round or less duration?
Barbarian actually needs the least help in this particular regard.  You can easily get enough rages per day, and they tend to last for the encounter anyway.  And, a simple potion or two can make up the difference as there's a spell in the SpC that solves this problem.

I can think of 2 big problems that I was aiming at.  One is the "kinda neat ability but only once per day" problem.  A lot of classes and especially PrCs have this problem.  Giving a low tier character a fancy spell like ability once per day does nothing to really help them, it's not like they can build their tactics and effectiveness around it. 

The other problem is just the general mehness of their abilities.  They either have a ton of limitations (sneak attack is kind of like this), or they don't do very much that's interesting of flexible.  I'd put Barbarian's rage in this category.  It's some nice boosts, but ultimately you don't get very much in the flexibility and game changers that define the Tiers system. 

Just to keep with the example, the Barbarian gets strong, but he's not strong enough to reshape the battlefield in any meaningful way (he can't knock down walls or trees, etc. easily) or even lift particularly heavy stuff.  And, he's still handily outclassed in this department by all his foes. 

Contrast that to what he gets as a Frenzied Berserker.  An even bigger stat boost, an undying fury, supreme cleave, etc.  All that would make the Barbarian feel like he really had a niche, especially if you gave him some mobility abilities, too, like maybe getting a save against no-save mobility resisting abilities or even a Slippery Mind effect for them.  I'd also reduce the limitations that rage imposes b/c they seem pointless to me. 

One way to go about it is to go about all the various prestige classes and alternate class features and so on that people think bump things up tiers and just throw them into the regular class.  JackintheGreen gives you some good examples about what abilities can be potential tier-changers.  The pitfall with them is that they can be a big specific -- a dungeoncrashing scary Fighter is a nice upgrade, but it's also a very particular kind of character. 

The other thing you'd need to do is figure out what feel you're comfortable with.  ToB feels very wuxia (for the life of me, I can't figure out why it's more wuxia than the baseline Monk is, other than actually being able to do things, but whatever, it's not my campaign).  But, one of the Barbarian "rage powers" that people like from Pathfinder and that's a little bit of a tier changer is the ability to effectively sunder spells.  That might or might not work for you. 

Finally, a trick that I think some retroclones do is to combine classes into one, making them archetypes or ACFs or something of each other?  If you could build a wilderness warrior out of cherrypicking all of a Fighter's, Rogue's, Ranger's, and Barbarian's abilities (picking one at one level, one at another), maybe that'd be a pretty solid boost?  I don't know how I'd go about doing it, but this is the kind of homebrew work that is way out of my ken.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 05:35:04 PM »
I'm still trying to think of a way to give Monks and Paladins a helping hand, as well as some of the non-core classes.
Quick and dirty? Try something like this:

Paladin:
  • Cast with Cha instead of Wis.
  • Caster level = Paladin level.
  • A missed attack roll with Smite Evil does not cost a use per day.
  • Probably the easiest way to give them more stuff at higher levels is to give them a bard's casting progression in terms of spells per day. You'll have to populate the 0th, 5th, and 6th level spells with some thematic stuff from the Cleric list.

Monk:
  • Full BAB progression.
  • Add Wis mod in place of Str mod to melee attack rolls and damage rolls with monk weapons, grapple, bull rush, and trip rolls.
  • AC boost increases to +1 per every even level. Treat it as an armor bonus.
  • Abundant step (12th level) is 1/hour instead of 1/day.
  • Quivering Palm (15th level) is at will instead of 1/week. If you think this is ridiculous, then 1/hour, instead.
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Offline Fredgerd

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 07:41:10 PM »
I'm still trying to think of a way to give Monks and Paladins a helping hand, as well as some of the non-core classes.
Quick and dirty? Try something like this:

Paladin:
  • Cast with Cha instead of Wis.
  • Caster level = Paladin level.
  • A missed attack roll with Smite Evil does not cost a use per day.
  • Probably the easiest way to give them more stuff at higher levels is to give them a bard's casting progression in terms of spells per day. You'll have to populate the 0th, 5th, and 6th level spells with some thematic stuff from the Cleric list.

Monk:
  • Full BAB progression.
  • Add Wis mod in place of Str mod to melee attack rolls and damage rolls with monk weapons, grapple, bull rush, and trip rolls.
  • AC boost increases to +1 per every even level. Treat it as an armor bonus.
  • Abundant step (12th level) is 1/hour instead of 1/day.
  • Quivering Palm (15th level) is at will instead of 1/week. If you think this is ridiculous, then 1/hour, instead.

I like it. What about for quivering palm just having it pull from the stunning fist pool (with the express exception that you do not actually need the stunning fist feat to use it)?

Some other classes I've thought of tweaks for

Ninja (CA)
- Sudden Strike is now Sneak Attack
- Ki Pool can be refreshed with a 1 minute meditation and a concentration check equal to 10+number of uses missing.

Ranger
- Allow the ACF to give Wild Shape as a Druid (Medium and Small Animals only) and Fast Movement.
- Ban Druid. Ranger now fills a unique niche distinct from druids, fighters and scouts and qualifies for some excellent prestige classes.

Knight
- Knight abilities scale with character level rather than class level.

Offline Fredgerd

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 07:47:24 PM »
The other thing you'd need to do is figure out what feel you're comfortable with.  ToB feels very wuxia (for the life of me, I can't figure out why it's more wuxia than the baseline Monk is, other than actually being able to do things, but whatever, it's not my campaign).

Wasn't saying they were more wuxia than the monk (though the swordsage maybe a little closer in style when compared with stuff like Weapons of the Gods). I was referring to things like the Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin etc which have a much more european fantasy feel. Also just alot of people like those classes and simply abandoning them because they aren't strong seems like a sad thing to have to do.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2015, 10:03:50 AM »
I like it. What about for quivering palm just having it pull from the stunning fist pool (with the express exception that you do not actually need the stunning fist feat to use it)?

That probably would be fine.

One other thing I forgot for the monk, added into the Ki Strike ability: At level 4 and beyond, the Monk's unarmed strikes are under a continual Greater Magic Weapon effect (caster level equal to his monk level).


Ninja (CA)
- Sudden Strike is now Sneak Attack
- Ki Pool can be refreshed with a 1 minute meditation and a concentration check equal to 10+number of uses missing.

I'd have to look over the class again, but I certainly don't see this as breaking anything.


- Ban Druid. Ranger now fills a unique niche distinct from druids, fighters and scouts and qualifies for some excellent prestige classes.

I'd suggest keeping the druid, but removing Wild Shape in this case. I don't know if the druid is good enough on it's own to also remove the Animal Companion or not.


Knight
- Knight abilities scale with character level rather than class level.

I'd have to look over this class again, but I seem to remember it being bad enough that it wouldn't be enough. It seems your knight "fix" is to just multiclass out :p.
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Offline Fredgerd

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2015, 04:25:44 PM »
Knight
- Knight abilities scale with character level rather than class level.

I'd have to look over this class again, but I seem to remember it being bad enough that it wouldn't be enough. It seems your knight "fix" is to just multiclass out :p.

Oh its definitely not enough, this was just a for starters idea, to make at least that an option. The first 4 levels might at least be interesting if they didn't scale with class level. But they do. It's sad, the class is really flavorful and fun looking (everything is oriented around challenging people to forced duels and such with Knight's challenge), but sadly its also terrible.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 12:16:56 AM »
I'd suggest keeping the druid, but removing Wild Shape in this case. I don't know if the druid is good enough on it's own to also remove the Animal Companion or not.

Compare to cleric; druid spell list is not bad, and they can summon without memorization. On the AC: "This is my meat wall. There are others like it, but this one is mine. Without my meat wall... I can get another in 24 hours, so I don't much care what happens to my disposable fighter substitute. And if I need really disposable fighters, I'll summon a few."

Since Druid wildshape just replaces physical stats; it's less of an issue than AC, at least regarding action economy. The Shapeshifter substitution (DMG PHBII) is actually not a terrible nerf, as it dumps the AC and merely buffs existing stats. If the shapeshift is ruled to qualify as Wild Shape for feats and PrCs, I feel it'd be worthwhile.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 01:49:59 AM by Chemus »
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 01:25:18 AM »
Pulling full casters down to T3 usually requires restricting their spell lists.  Making them T2 simply requires limiting their spells known.  I'm not so sure there's a simple fix for them.  One of the suggestions has been to cap them at 7th level spells instead but that might be a fairly large change depending on how one looks at it.

Ranger spellcasting is pulled up easiest through the Mystic Ranger ACF since that gives it 5th level spells at 10th level and then just more spell slots after that.  Hm, I haven't yet posted my Mystic Paladin homebrew variant...  I should do that.  Anyway, just give the ranger that spell progression and a full level AC and you'd probably be good.

Druid can either have the half level AC that rangers usually have or the AC might just be nixed altogether because losing it won't change the druid's tier position.

Offline Fredgerd

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2015, 12:33:27 PM »
I'm not that worried about pulling T1/2 down. They'll be stronger but I'd rather buff the other classes and just ban certain PrCs. To clarify my logic on the Druid ban, while they are a very strong class, banning them has more to do with access to Survival as a class skill, which due to allowing Power Components would push them even further up and also take the exclusivity of the role away from barbarians rangers and scouts, all of which could benefit from an increased goldstream.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2015, 01:06:09 PM »
Giving Rangers full animal companions seems like an easy thing to do help out a little.

Offline Fredgerd

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2015, 06:46:25 PM »
That could also be an interesting way to buff them. I'd like to see more beast master builds for sure.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 06:48:57 PM by Fredgerd »

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Simple tweaks for increasing low tier viability?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2015, 07:24:21 AM »
Giving Rangers full animal companions seems like an easy thing to do help out a little.

That was one of the changes I did to rangers in my house rules:

Ranger
  • Gain animal companion at 1st level instead of 4th level. The ranger’s effective druid level is his class level for this ability.
  • Gain Animal Affinity at 4th level as a bonus feat.
  • Replace Combat Style with a bonus feat from the following list: Far Shot, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Two Weapon Defense, and Two Weapon Fighting. The ranger must meet the prerequisites for any feat he takes. The ranger gains this ability at 2nd, 6th, 11th, and 16th levels.

Note that the feats in the last bullet point have been beefed up a bit, too.
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