Author Topic: Paladin Rewrite  (Read 7808 times)

Offline Kethrian

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Paladin Rewrite
« on: June 06, 2014, 01:54:43 AM »
   I had to rewrite the paladin class, because the version in the PHB is an incredibly weak class that deserves much more love and attention.  I opened the alignment up to any good, because I view paladins as holy champions of good, not just warriors that act like Judge Dredd with a few divine effects.  I also removed the special mount in favour of other abilities to enhance the paladin directly, though I left the mount in at the bottom as an ACF.


Paladin

Alignment: Any Good

Hit Die: d12

Table:
SavesSpellcasting
Lv   Base Attack Bonus   Fort     Ref     Will     Class Abilities1st     2nd   3rd    4th
1+1+2+0+2Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/encounter        -  -  -  -
2+2+3+0+3Divine Grace, Lay on Hands  -  -  -  -
3+3+3+1+3Aura of Courage, Divine Health  -  -  -  -
4+4+4+1+4Turn Undead, Bonus Feat  1  -  -  -
5+5+4+1+4Heavenly Weapon, Smite Evil 2/encounter  1  -  -  -
6+6/+1+5+2+5Restoring Touch 1/day  2  -  -  -
7+7/+2+5+2+5Invigorating Smite, Bonus Feat  2  1  -  -
8+8/+3+6+2+6Aura of Protection  3  1  -  -
9+9/+4+6+3+6Holy Wings  3  2  -  -
10+10/+5+7+3+7Smite Evil 3/encounter, Bonus Feat  4  2  1  -
11+11/+6/+1+7+3+7Holy Weapon, Restoring Touch 2/day  4  3  1  -
12+12/+7/+2+8+4+8Dazing Smite, Mettle  5  3  2  -
13+13/+8/+3+8+4+8Aura of Life, Bonus Feat  5  4  2  1
14+14/+9/+4+9+4+9Heavenly Guidance  5  4  3  1
15+15/+10/+5+9+5+9Tongues, Smite Evil 4/encounter  5  5  3  2
16+16/+11/+6/+1+10+5+10Restoring Touch 3/day, Bonus Feat  6  5  4  2
17+17/+12/+7/+2+10+5+10Dispelling Smite, Sacred Weapon  6  5  4  3
18+18/+13/+8/+3+11+6+11Aura of Clear Thought  6  5  5  3
19+19/+14/+9/+4+11+6+11Bonus Feat  6  6  5  4
20+20/+15/+10/+5+12+6+12Holy Champion, Smite Evil 5/encounter  7  6  5  4


Class Skills (4+int mod skill points per level, x4 at 1st level) Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information, (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Swim (Str)

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A paladin is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light, medium, and heavy armour, and with shields, including tower shields.

Aura of Good (Ex): A paladin's aura of good radiates a power equal to his level, just like the aura of a cleric.  See the Detect Good spell in the PHB, pg. 219 for further information regarding the power of the aura.

Detect Evil (Sp): Paladins can use Detect Evil as a spell-like ability, at will.

Smite Evil (Su): A paladin can channel holy wrath into his blows, allowing him to smite creatures of evil with his attacks.  Once per encounter, he may choose to activate Smite Evil as a free action.  Until the start of his next turn, all his normal attacks, whether with melee or ranged weapons or unarmed strikes, against an evil creature adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to the attack rolls, and if the attack is successful, he adds his paladin level plus his Charisma bonus (if any) to his damage.  If the target is not evil, the smite has no effect.  Smite Evil attacks are good-aligned.
   At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, the paladin gains one extra use of Smite Evil per encounter.  The feat Extra Smiting (CW, pg. 98) and other sources that grant bonus smite attempts per day instead grant the extra smite attempts per encounter.

Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, the paladin gains a bonus to his saving throws equal to his Charisma bonus (if any), up to a maximum equal to his paladin level.

Lay on Hands (Su): Also at level 2, a paladin gains the ability to heal with his touch.  As an attack action, he may touch a creature to deliver healing.  If the target does not wish to be touched, the paladin must succeed on a melee touch attack.  Upon a successful touch, he heals the target as many HP as he chooses to allocate from his healing pool, divvying these points up however he chooses among each touch.  The healing pool is equal to his Charisma score times his paladin level in HP.  For example, a level 5 paladin with a Charisma of 17 has a healing pool of 85.  The pool refreshes after 8 hours of rest.
   If used on an undead creature, it instead takes damage equal to the amount the touch would normally heal.

Aura of Courage (Su): Starting at 3rd level, a paladin begins to radiate an aura which bolsters the courage of his allies.  He gains immunity to fear effects, and all allies within 30' of him get a morale bonus to saves against fear effects equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus.  The paladin cannot radiate his aura while unconscious or dead.

Divine Health (Ex): Paladins of at least 3rd level also gain an immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases such as lycanthropy and mummy rot.

Turn Undead (Su): Upon reaching level 4, a paladin gains the ability to turn undead, much like a good cleric.  He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3+ his Charisma modifier (minimum 1).  His effective cleric level for turning is equal to his paladin level.  See Turn or Rebuke Undead, PHB pg. 159.

Bonus Feat: At 4th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, a paladin gains a bonus feat from the following list.  He must still meet any prerequisites for the feat in order to take it.
   Animal Affinity, Battle Blessing, Blind-Fight, Close-Quarters Fighting, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Empower Turning, Endurance, Diehard, Extra Smiting, Extra Turning, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical, Improved Smiting, Improved Turning, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Negotiator, Power Attack, Awesome Smite, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Quick Draw, Quicken Turning, and any divine feat.

Spells: At level 4, a paladin begins to cast spells.  He casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list.  He must choose and prepare his spells in advance.
   To cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level.  The Difficulty Class for saving throws against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell's level + his Charisma modifier.
   Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day.  His base daily spell allotment is given in the table above.  In addition, he receives bonus spells for a high Charisma score (see Table 1-1, page 8 of the PHB).
   A paladin prepares and casts spells much like the way a cleric does, but has no spontaneous casting option or domains.  He may prepare and cast any spell on his spell list, provided he can cast spells of that level, but must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.
   Up to 3rd level, the paladin has no caster level.  At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his paladin level.

Heavenly Weapon (Su): At 5th level, a paladin's holy power infuses his armaments.  Any weapon wielded by the paladin automatically gains the Heavenly Burst weapon property (MIC, pg. 36), but the save DC against the blindness effect is 10 + ½ the paladin's level + his Charisma bonus.  This stacks with any enchantments already on the weapon, except for Heavenly Burst.

Restoring Touch (Sp): A paladin of 6th level gains the ability to remove ailments with a touch.  Once per day, plus one every 5 levels after 6, a paladin may use Restoring Touch as a standard action.  It functions as Remove Disease, Remove Curse, or Break Enchantment as appropriate.  If multiple effects could be affected, then each is dealt with using the most appropriate spell effect.  Treat the paladin's class level as his caster level for this ability.

Invigorating Smite (Su): One he reaches level 7, the paladin gains the ability to augment his smites.  If he chooses to expend one additional Smite Evil use when he activates his Smite Evil, every smite attack for the round which hits an evil foe heals the paladin or an ally of his choice within 30' a number of HP equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus (minimum 1).  If this would bring the recipient over his maximum, the excess is gained as temporary HP, which last for up to 10 minutes.

Aura of Protection (Su): Upon reaching 8th level, a paladin's aura improves.  He now radiates an aura which protects himself and his allies within 30', granting a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus to their Armour Class, to a maximum of +2, plus an extra 1 every three levels thereafter.  Much like his Aura of Courage, it does not function when the paladin is unconscious or dead.

Holy Wings (Su): At level 9, a paladin can conjure himself a pair of wings.  The wings do not physically connect to his back, so they do not interfere with worn armour or the like, and they resemble softly glowing white feathered wings.  The wings grant the paladin flight equal to twice his land speed, with good manoeuvrability.  The paladin may still fly even when wearing heavy armour or carrying a heavy load, but still suffers the associated speed reduction.  It takes a standard action to create or dismiss the wings, though they automatically vanish if the paladin should lose consciousness.  If he should be in the air when his wings disappear, he gains the effects of a Feather Fall spell for up to 3 rounds, or until coming into contact with the ground.  He may use the wings for a total of 1 hour per paladin level each day, though each use uses a minimum of 1 minute of the time.
   The paladin may also use his wings to fly short distances very quickly.  As a swift action, he may move up to his fly speed, but this uses up 30 minutes of his time for the day with the wings.

Holy Weapon (Su): A paladin of at least 11th level further infuses holy power into his weapon.  Any weapon wielded by the paladin gains the Holy weapon property (DMG, pg. 225) so long as he keeps it in hand.  This stacks with Heavenly Weapon, and with any enchantments already on the weapon, except for Holy.

Dazing Smite (Su): Once a paladin reaches 12th level, he gains a further method to augment his smite attacks.  Whenever he uses his Smite Evil, the paladin may choose to spend an extra use for the encounter to cause his smite attacks to daze evil foes for 1 round if hit, unless they make a Will save against a DC equal to 10 + ½ the paladin's level + his Charisma bonus.  Dazing Smite may be used in addition to Invigorating Smite on the same round, so long as each has been paid for.

Mettle (Ex): Paladins can resist magical attacks with greater effectiveness than others.  Beginning at 12th level, a paladin can shrug off effects that would hinder even the toughest warrior. If he succeeds on a Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead negates the effect. The paladin does not gain the benefit of mettle while unconscious.

Aura of Life (Su): At level 13, a paladin gains a 3rd aura.  This one grants him immunity to death effects, and gives a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus to saves against death, effects from undead or evil outsider abilities and spells, and negative energy effects to himself and all allies within 30'.  Any undead and evil outsiders within the aura instead get a penalty to all saving throws equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus, and undead also receive a penalty to their effective Hit Dice equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus for the purposes of Turn Undead.  The paladin keeps the immunity to death effects, but does not otherwise radiate the aura when unconscious.

Heavenly Guidance (Sp): After reaching 14th level, a paladin may pray directly to his god for answers.  Twice per week, the paladin may cast Commune, with a caster level equal to his paladin level.  This takes 10 minutes of prayer, and the use is lost if the prayer is interrupted.  The god is also not limited to just a yes or no answer, and can give a short sentence or two in response to each question.  If the paladin does not worship a specific deity, he may choose a deity whose alignment is within one step of his own to commune with, though once chosen, the paladin cannot change his choice unless his alignment changes first.

Tongues (Su): A paladin of 15th level gains the ability to communicate with nearly any other creature.  He is now under the effects of a constant Tongues spell.  If the effect gets dispelled or otherwise cancelled, it returns automatically on the start of his next turn.

Dispelling Smite (Su): Upon reaching 17th level, a paladin learns one final augment for smiting evil.  With the expenditure of one extra Smite Evil use when he activates his Smite Evil for the round, all his successful smiting attacks against evil foes create a Dispel Magic effect on them.  Treat is as the targeted version of Greater Dispel Magic, using the paladin's class level as the caster level.  This ability may be used in conjunction with Invigorating Smite and Dazing Smite, so long as an extra Smite Evil attempt is expended for each augment.

Sacred Weapon (Su): At 17th level, a paladin's holy weapon powers improve one last time.  Weapons wielded by the paladin gain the Sacred and Sacred Burst properties (MIC, pg. 42) while held.  This stacks with Heavenly Weapon and Holy Weapon, and also with any enchantments already on the weapon, except for the Sacred and Sacred Burst enchantments.

Aura of Clear Thought (Su): A paladin that makes it to level 18 gains a fourth and final aura.  From now on, he is immune to mind-affecting effects, and grants a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus to saves against such effects for his allies within 30'.  This aura's bonus stacks with Aura of Courage, effectively doubling the save bonus against fear effects.  The paladin keeps the immunity, but does not otherwise radiate the aura when unconscious.

Holy Champion (Ex): A paladin who attains 20th level gains an aspect of true divinity.  His type changes to outsider with the native and good subtypes, gets DR 10/evil, and gains darkvision 60' or gets +30' to his existing darkvision.  He also gains a permanent +2 bonus to both Strength and Charisma.  He no longer ages, though he still needs to eat, breathe, and sleep as normal.

Code of Conduct: A paladin must stay of good alignment, and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act.  Additionally, a paladin's code requires that he respect legitimate authority, act with honour (no cheating, stealing, using poisons, or the like), though lying may be allowed, so long as it directly furthers his cause and would not cause harm to others.  He must help those in need, so long as it is not used to evil ends, and must punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
   A paladin can never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor can he continue association with those who continually offend his moral code.  He may only accept followers, cohorts, and henchmen who are of good alignment.



Alternate Class Feature
Special Mount: You may take the original mount rules as an ACF, gaining it at level 5.  In exchange, the class loses Heavenly Weapon, Holy Wings, Holy Weapon, and Sacred Weapon as class abilities.  Add the following to the bonus feat list: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Swift Call, and Trample.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 02:32:34 PM by Kethrian »
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Offline gabrion

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2014, 08:08:18 AM »
I would like to share some thoughts on this rewrite (big fan of Paladin rewrites, just posted one myself actually), but I have to ask a question before I feel like I can give useful feedback.  What level of power were you intending to achieve with this rewrite?  I ask because there isn't a "wrong" power level in home brew, but at the same time, it's difficult to evaluate work without knowing exactly what the author was shooting for. 

Also, as someone who has obviously mulled over the class a bit, I would appreciate any input you may have on my Paladin rewrite.  :)

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2014, 09:16:09 AM »
I was aiming for somewhere in tier 3, or possibly higher end tier 4.  I'll definitely take a look at yours, however!
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An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline gabrion

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2014, 12:47:24 PM »
Here's my promised input.  :) 

I'll say first that having just written my own Paladin "fix," it's certainly interesting to go through another one.  You obviously focused more on the Paladin's role as a "traditional" combatant, while I went for "I serve my God, he gives me what I need," flavored versatility.  I would say yours comes out a bit ahead in the iconic Paladin department - in your face holy warrior who's hard to take down and capable of putting on the hurt when he smashes you in the face.  That said, of course either paradigm is just a matter of what a player/DM is looking for. 

I was aiming for somewhere in tier 3, or possibly higher end tier 4.  I'll definitely take a look at yours, however!

After reading through a few times, I'm eyeballing at tier 4, but could be wrong.  Thinking of the types of encounters the Paladin can "solve," the only one that is fairly trivial for him is punching evil enemies in the face.  He's pretty good at that.  But of course we always have to come back to other ways higher tier class could handle that same evil enemy...and of course the tier 1s, 2s, and even 3s to some extent will often have an easier time solving the same encounter.  Like I said though, that's a first impression.

Plus he obviously offers some nifty party wide, always-on defenses, so that's certainly worth something.  He should be able to front line well, but again that's combat specific.  His bonus feats can help build some versatility, but given the list, that's still mostly toe-to-toe stuff (though bonus feats, even if restricted to smashy ones, of course may free up regular feat slots, allowing the character to develop more versatility).  Ok, on to some specific thoughts.

The Chassis (HD, BAB, Saves, Skills, Proficiencies)
I like the increase to d12.  BAB is obvious.  I know you mentioned in my thread that high will save made sense because WIS wasn't a casting stat, but honestly I think it should be high on any Paladin.  Of course Divine Grace helps with all Paladin saves, but even that aside, I see a Paladin being much more likely to resist a charm person than dodge a fireball (and not just because of Wisdom).  Skills...well I may have a skewed view on this.  I see 2+Int/level as something that should have been reserved pretty much only for T1 and T2 classes.  Those types of guys are way more focused on mastering their game breaking abilities than learning to ride a horse.  A Paladin should have enough points to ride and handle animal (if he's doing that), use diplomacy and intimidate, have knowledge of the religion he follows, know something about mundane healing, and possibly be good at jumping, climbing, or other physical activities.  Like everything, this is just an opinion though (I'm gonna be saying that a lot :) ).  On proficiencies, would it be a sin to give them tower shield for free?  Not a big deal.

Aura of Good/Detect Evil
Pretty Standard stuff.  Reminds me that I didn't say anything in my intro about alignment.  Your Paladin is, again, iconic in the sense that he's always good aligned.  However, I like removing alignment restrictions because it opens the class to play by more people.  Flavor is what matters and a core Paladin should work mechanically just as well if something decides to make him an evil anti-paladin.  Really small potatoes though since DMs/players often work these sorts of details out anyway.

Smite
Like most fixes, changed to encounter/day, which is good.  As you pointed out in your response in my thread though, this could potentially use some love, or even just some spicing up to make it more interesting.  If you check the like at the beginning of my thread, it goes to a different Paladin fix, which includes a mechanic (maybe level 11ish?) that uses 2 smites in order to make all attacks count as a smite if you take a full attack action.  I didn't include it in mine, but for your rewrite, which is much more focused on smashing things in the face, it would be very appealing.

Divine Grace/Mettle/Other Personal Defenses
Mentioned in the thread for my fix, I prefer either capping the bonus (can't be higher than Paladin level or whatever) if given at low levels, or moving it higher in the progression.  No one will fault you for leaving it as is though, since it can be picked up many other places exactly as it's written here. 

I like your addition of Mettle very much, it just makes sense for a Paladin.  That brings me back to an earlier point though...I still think fort and will should be high saves.  :)  The fact that he has mettle is almost evidence of this in my mind - he's equally likely to fend off either of those types of attacks.

I also like that you included many of the immunities native to the class.  I sort of overlooked them and may need to rethink that on mine.  It's downright embarrassing for the Paladin to get mummy rot.

Lay on Hands/Restoring Touch
Well you can probably tell from my fix that I wasn't impressed with the original lay on hands.  Maybe I'm crazy though and this is enough.  Outside of just this ability though, and I touched on this in my thread, I think it was a problem in 3.5 that healing was rarely worth spending an action on.  So you're a 6th level Paladin with +4 CHA mod (not crazy to imagine, especially if needed to put points in WIS for spellcasting...might be even lower).  That means you can heal up to 24 HP per day.  Lets say you have around 50 HP (just making stuff up here, but seems possible with a d12 and some investment in CON).  So you can heal half your HP, once per day.  Now if the class is focused more on offense than stuff like healing, as yours is, I'm willing to bet that a very high percentage of the time you'd be better off smiting your enemy to death, so he doesn't do more damage, than spending your standard action to heal.  This is the problem I was talking about with 3.5.  It doesn't make sense to give classes healing abilities that are rarely worth prioritizing over other actions.

Now if you don't want to increase the healing potential, since that isn't the focus of this rewrite, what if you instead make the action economy easier to stomach?  Would it break anything to allow the Paladin to use his (fairly limited) pool of healing as a swift action for instance?

Restoring Touch is good, though I'm still not partial to daily abilities.  Still, not a big deal.

Turn Undead
Another "not a big deal" point, but why should a Paladin be any less good at turning than a cleric.  One might know more about rituals and silly stuff like that, but the other is the hand of their god on earth!  Of course turns are more likely to be used for other purposes, but I still don't like the base ability being handicapped.

Bonus Feats
Mentioned this above, but I see these as mostly useful for helping the Paladin build his face smashing portfolio without having to spend all his regular feats on it.

Spells
Ok, we obviously had different visions on this when we did our rewrites.  I won't try to sell you on a better spell progression or anything like that though.  You've made a valid, hammer-of-the-gods type class here, so it's not about the castings.  Even for this type of framework I have a few things that bug me though.

Why does WIS have to be the casting stat?  I know it's been touched on several times now, but I'll point out that one of the first things in the threads explaining why Paladin is T5 is that he has to spread his abilities too thin.  Can it make sense for WIS to be his casting stat?  Of course.  For practical purposes, does it gimp a class that already has somewhat of a hard time?  You betchya.

Second, why caster level = half class level?  He's already a max spell level 4 caster, is it such a sin to let his buffs last a little longer or, god forbid, give him a chance to make it past SR if he ever casts anything offensive?

Now you were the one who brought battle casting to my attention, so I get that that may be a concern, but I still don't think they should be half caster level.  Just an opinion.  :)

Weapon Special Effects
This part is bad@$$.  Thematic too. 

Of course just keep in mind that when evaluating for purpose of the tier system, it falls pretty squarely in the camp of "does one thing well."  I mean once they all start stacking and the Paladin also has a nice magic weapon in the first place, he may end up doing that thing really well, but it will still be one thing.

Auras
I also like these.  It's cool that they combine an immunity the Paladin has with a very strong party wide buff against the same type of threat.  If I didn't want my Paladin version to be more of a versatilist, I would probably steal this from you.  Yours is certainly better for a party that wants the peace of mind of being well protected against certain threats (ones that can be real doozies too).

Wings
Always kind to give a character free flying.  :)

Guidance
I almost did something just like this!  (Though it was going to be called Divine Guidance to fit with the theme names in my fix).

I was recently building a Sapphire Hierarch character for a game and really thought the commune type ability would be cool for a character to have.  Makes perfect sense for a highish level Paladin.  Plus it can honestly be more powerful than some might give it credit for.  A good DM will treat this as even better than the commune spell in my opinion - "Hi God.  No it's not another two-bit soothsayer calling, it's one of your champions on earth needing some guidance..."

Tongues
Nice ability, though it makes me go back to the skill point issue.  It would be nice to have enough to comfortably invest in some social skills.

Holy Champion
Capstones like this totally make sense, but beware that for players thinking taking 20 full levels in a class should give an extremely powerful payoff, it's going to be a bit underwhelming.  I struggled with capstone myself though, and can't say 100% I came up with something great.



Offline Kethrian

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2014, 06:12:20 PM »
Here's my promised input.  :) 

I'll say first that having just written my own Paladin "fix," it's certainly interesting to go through another one.  You obviously focused more on the Paladin's role as a "traditional" combatant, while I went for "I serve my God, he gives me what I need," flavored versatility.  I would say yours comes out a bit ahead in the iconic Paladin department - in your face holy warrior who's hard to take down and capable of putting on the hurt when he smashes you in the face.  That said, of course either paradigm is just a matter of what a player/DM is looking for. 

Yes, I wanted the class to fit the tank/holy warrior role first and foremost, looking to keep the class as iconic as possible.

Quote
I was aiming for somewhere in tier 3, or possibly higher end tier 4.  I'll definitely take a look at yours, however!

After reading through a few times, I'm eyeballing at tier 4, but could be wrong.  Thinking of the types of encounters the Paladin can "solve," the only one that is fairly trivial for him is punching evil enemies in the face.  He's pretty good at that.  But of course we always have to come back to other ways higher tier class could handle that same evil enemy...and of course the tier 1s, 2s, and even 3s to some extent will often have an easier time solving the same encounter.  Like I said though, that's a first impression.

Plus he obviously offers some nifty party wide, always-on defenses, so that's certainly worth something.  He should be able to front line well, but again that's combat specific.  His bonus feats can help build some versatility, but given the list, that's still mostly toe-to-toe stuff (though bonus feats, even if restricted to smashy ones, of course may free up regular feat slots, allowing the character to develop more versatility).  Ok, on to some specific thoughts.

Yeah, I should've considered more on things to cover areas other than combat.

Quote
The Chassis (HD, BAB, Saves, Skills, Proficiencies)
I like the increase to d12.  BAB is obvious.  I know you mentioned in my thread that high will save made sense because WIS wasn't a casting stat, but honestly I think it should be high on any Paladin.  Of course Divine Grace helps with all Paladin saves, but even that aside, I see a Paladin being much more likely to resist a charm person than dodge a fireball (and not just because of Wisdom).  Skills...well I may have a skewed view on this.  I see 2+Int/level as something that should have been reserved pretty much only for T1 and T2 classes.  Those types of guys are way more focused on mastering their game breaking abilities than learning to ride a horse.  A Paladin should have enough points to ride and handle animal (if he's doing that), use diplomacy and intimidate, have knowledge of the religion he follows, know something about mundane healing, and possibly be good at jumping, climbing, or other physical activities.  Like everything, this is just an opinion though (I'm gonna be saying that a lot :) ).  On proficiencies, would it be a sin to give them tower shield for free?  Not a big deal.

I definitely agree that skills should be upped to 4 per level.  And I do see your point about making Will a good save.  Tower shield?  Yeah, that's an easy add.

Quote
Aura of Good/Detect Evil
Pretty Standard stuff.  Reminds me that I didn't say anything in my intro about alignment.  Your Paladin is, again, iconic in the sense that he's always good aligned.  However, I like removing alignment restrictions because it opens the class to play by more people.  Flavor is what matters and a core Paladin should work mechanically just as well if something decides to make him an evil anti-paladin.  Really small potatoes though since DMs/players often work these sorts of details out anyway.

I figured it would be easy enough to reflavour everything to lawful or evil or the like if they wanted, and I was thinking of later doing a write-up for anti-paladin, making it a little more distinct from just being a reflavouring.

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Smite
Like most fixes, changed to encounter/day, which is good.  As you pointed out in your response in my thread though, this could potentially use some love, or even just some spicing up to make it more interesting.  If you check the like at the beginning of my thread, it goes to a different Paladin fix, which includes a mechanic (maybe level 11ish?) that uses 2 smites in order to make all attacks count as a smite if you take a full attack action.  I didn't include it in mine, but for your rewrite, which is much more focused on smashing things in the face, it would be very appealing.

A friend just suggested I expand the smite use to cover a full attack.  I'm thinking of making each use affect all attacks the paladin makes for 1 round, so it'll even cover AoOs.  And I do want to see about adding other minor bonuses, like you did with yours.

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Divine Grace/Mettle/Other Personal Defenses
Mentioned in the thread for my fix, I prefer either capping the bonus (can't be higher than Paladin level or whatever) if given at low levels, or moving it higher in the progression.  No one will fault you for leaving it as is though, since it can be picked up many other places exactly as it's written here. 

I like your addition of Mettle very much, it just makes sense for a Paladin.  That brings me back to an earlier point though...I still think fort and will should be high saves.  :)  The fact that he has mettle is almost evidence of this in my mind - he's equally likely to fend off either of those types of attacks.

I also like that you included many of the immunities native to the class.  I sort of overlooked them and may need to rethink that on mine.  It's downright embarrassing for the Paladin to get mummy rot.

Level capping Divine Grace is probably the best fix for it on my version, and very easy to do.  Mettle just seemed so perfect for the class, I couldn't help but add it!  And yes, you probably should add Divine Health back into your version, at the very least.  The others are probably less important, due to the expanded spellcasting your class has.

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Lay on Hands/Restoring Touch
Well you can probably tell from my fix that I wasn't impressed with the original lay on hands.  Maybe I'm crazy though and this is enough.  Outside of just this ability though, and I touched on this in my thread, I think it was a problem in 3.5 that healing was rarely worth spending an action on.  So you're a 6th level Paladin with +4 CHA mod (not crazy to imagine, especially if needed to put points in WIS for spellcasting...might be even lower).  That means you can heal up to 24 HP per day.  Lets say you have around 50 HP (just making stuff up here, but seems possible with a d12 and some investment in CON).  So you can heal half your HP, once per day.  Now if the class is focused more on offense than stuff like healing, as yours is, I'm willing to bet that a very high percentage of the time you'd be better off smiting your enemy to death, so he doesn't do more damage, than spending your standard action to heal.  This is the problem I was talking about with 3.5.  It doesn't make sense to give classes healing abilities that are rarely worth prioritizing over other actions.

Now if you don't want to increase the healing potential, since that isn't the focus of this rewrite, what if you instead make the action economy easier to stomach?  Would it break anything to allow the Paladin to use his (fairly limited) pool of healing as a swift action for instance?

Restoring Touch is good, though I'm still not partial to daily abilities.  Still, not a big deal.

I think you misread my version of Lay on Hands a little.  It's paladin level x Charisma score.  A 6th level paladin with an 18 Cha will have 108 points available per day.  I might change the action to an attack action, so you can give up one attack in a full attack to utilize it while still getting your other attacks (great for healing yourself or an ally with your last attack, which would likely miss).  As for Restoring Touch, I went with per day usage because it shouldn't come up often enough to need more uses, except in rare situations, where such a limit is something the DM can exploit for plot or whatever.

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Turn Undead
Another "not a big deal" point, but why should a Paladin be any less good at turning than a cleric.  One might know more about rituals and silly stuff like that, but the other is the hand of their god on earth!  Of course turns are more likely to be used for other purposes, but I still don't like the base ability being handicapped.

Very good point!  I'll remove the -3, so it'll be on par with clerics, and just leave it at 4th level to avoid front-loading.

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Bonus Feats
Mentioned this above, but I see these as mostly useful for helping the Paladin build his face smashing portfolio without having to spend all his regular feats on it.

That is pretty much exactly why I added them, so the player can spend regular feats on things that aren't combat-focused, if he chooses.

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Spells
Ok, we obviously had different visions on this when we did our rewrites.  I won't try to sell you on a better spell progression or anything like that though.  You've made a valid, hammer-of-the-gods type class here, so it's not about the castings.  Even for this type of framework I have a few things that bug me though.

Why does WIS have to be the casting stat?  I know it's been touched on several times now, but I'll point out that one of the first things in the threads explaining why Paladin is T5 is that he has to spread his abilities too thin.  Can it make sense for WIS to be his casting stat?  Of course.  For practical purposes, does it gimp a class that already has somewhat of a hard time?  You betchya.

Second, why caster level = half class level?  He's already a max spell level 4 caster, is it such a sin to let his buffs last a little longer or, god forbid, give him a chance to make it past SR if he ever casts anything offensive?

Now you were the one who brought battle casting to my attention, so I get that that may be a concern, but I still don't think they should be half caster level.  Just an opinion.  :)

I left Wis as the caster stat because with only 4 spell levels, it's easy enough to have a 10 wis, then get stat boosting gear to keep spellcasting viable.  Since 14 Wis by level 14 is all you need to cast every level of spell, I think it's low enough to not be a big drain, MAD-wise.  I can, however, pull a spirit shaman move, and make the save DCs Charisma based.  As for caster level, I can totally agree that full caster level is a minor boost, given how small the spell list is. I'll definitely up it to class level is caster level.

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Weapon Special Effects
This part is bad@$$.  Thematic too. 

Of course just keep in mind that when evaluating for purpose of the tier system, it falls pretty squarely in the camp of "does one thing well."  I mean once they all start stacking and the Paladin also has a nice magic weapon in the first place, he may end up doing that thing really well, but it will still be one thing.

Yeah, I really wanted to make the paladin feel like a servant of divine wrath, and this was just such an iconic way to do it.

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Auras
I also like these.  It's cool that they combine an immunity the Paladin has with a very strong party wide buff against the same type of threat.  If I didn't want my Paladin version to be more of a versatilist, I would probably steal this from you.  Yours is certainly better for a party that wants the peace of mind of being well protected against certain threats (ones that can be real doozies too).

I have to blame Diablo 2 and DDO for the inspiration for these auras.  Both have very little use for buffing things outside combat, so my ideas were definitely coloured to fit with buffing defenses.  And yes, they very much help with the whole tank-defender aspect to the class.

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Wings
Always kind to give a character free flying.  :)

Guidance
I almost did something just like this!  (Though it was going to be called Divine Guidance to fit with the theme names in my fix).

I was recently building a Sapphire Hierarch character for a game and really thought the commune type ability would be cool for a character to have.  Makes perfect sense for a highish level Paladin.  Plus it can honestly be more powerful than some might give it credit for.  A good DM will treat this as even better than the commune spell in my opinion - "Hi God.  No it's not another two-bit soothsayer calling, it's one of your champions on earth needing some guidance..."

Wings were a given, considering I took away the mount.

For Guidance, I felt a paladin at higher levels should definitely be able to ask his god for help, and actually get real answers.  I'm thinking of expanding the god's answers to more than just yes/no.  Maybe a short sentence or two per question instead.

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Tongues
Nice ability, though it makes me go back to the skill point issue.  It would be nice to have enough to comfortably invest in some social skills.

Holy Champion
Capstones like this totally make sense, but beware that for players thinking taking 20 full levels in a class should give an extremely powerful payoff, it's going to be a bit underwhelming.  I struggled with capstone myself though, and can't say 100% I came up with something great.

Tongues is for helping with those Cha-based skills, though I feel it comes very late on the progression to make really good use.  Still, it's better than nothing.

I do think capstones should be a payoff, but not necessarily extremely powerful.  I could add some celestial resistances to it, like resist 5 or 10 to acid, cold, and electricity.

Thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 06:19:09 PM by Kethrian »
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Offline gabrion

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2014, 05:10:15 AM »

I figured it would be easy enough to reflavour everything to lawful or evil or the like if they wanted, and I was thinking of later doing a write-up for anti-paladin, making it a little more distinct from just being a reflavouring.

This is true of course.  In all my years playing 3.5, "Paladins don't have to be LG" may be one of the most common house rules I've seen.  DMs can certainly work this however they want.

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A friend just suggested I expand the smite use to cover a full attack.  I'm thinking of making each use affect all attacks the paladin makes for 1 round, so it'll even cover AoOs.  And I do want to see about adding other minor bonuses, like you did with yours.

That would be pretty powerful, but a nice boost.  I gut feeling is that doing so should cost two smite uses for the encounter.  It's still very much in the wheelhouse of making him even better at what he's good at though.  Hmm all that bonus smite damage would be nice for a Stand Still build though.

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I think you misread my version of Lay on Hands a little.  It's paladin level x Charisma score.  A 6th level paladin with an 18 Cha will have 108 points available per day.  I might change the action to an attack action, so you can give up one attack in a full attack to utilize it while still getting your other attacks (great for healing yourself or an ally with your last attack, which would likely miss).  As for Restoring Touch, I went with per day usage because it shouldn't come up often enough to need more uses, except in rare situations, where such a limit is something the DM can exploit for plot or whatever.

Misread indeed!  Ya I was definitely thinking Cha mod, not Cha score.  Well that's pretty good then and can really let him do some healing, actually in an even more burst like fashion that mine (mine will just be able to do it over more encounters).  I still like your idea of making it some sort of other action though.  Granted if you have 50+ HP at level six and can heal yourself from nearly dead to full with a standard action, that's obviously worth it (and you can pretty much do it 2x/day), but it still wouldn't be out of line to make it a faster action.

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Spells
Ok, we obviously had different visions on this when we did our rewrites.  I won't try to sell you on a better spell progression or anything like that though.  You've made a valid, hammer-of-the-gods type class here, so it's not about the castings.  Even for this type of framework I have a few things that bug me though.

Why does WIS have to be the casting stat?  I know it's been touched on several times now, but I'll point out that one of the first things in the threads explaining why Paladin is T5 is that he has to spread his abilities too thin.  Can it make sense for WIS to be his casting stat?  Of course.  For practical purposes, does it gimp a class that already has somewhat of a hard time?  You betchya.

Second, why caster level = half class level?  He's already a max spell level 4 caster, is it such a sin to let his buffs last a little longer or, god forbid, give him a chance to make it past SR if he ever casts anything offensive?

Now you were the one who brought battle casting to my attention, so I get that that may be a concern, but I still don't think they should be half caster level.  Just an opinion.  :)

I left Wis as the caster stat because with only 4 spell levels, it's easy enough to have a 10 wis, then get stat boosting gear to keep spellcasting viable.  Since 14 Wis by level 14 is all you need to cast every level of spell, I think it's low enough to not be a big drain, MAD-wise.  I can, however, pull a spirit shaman move, and make the save DCs Charisma based.  As for caster level, I can totally agree that full caster level is a minor boost, given how small the spell list is. I'll definitely up it to class level is caster level.[/quote]

Well it is true that with only 4 levels of spells a Paladin won't have to invest like crazy in WIS, but there are still a few things to think about.  Put it this way...if you were rolling up a new Paladin using a fix that had Cha as casting stat, and no real use for Wis, what would your dump stat be?  You probably want high STR to hit things in the face, CON for HP, a few points in INT so you don't get less skill points, and of course as much as you can afford in CHA.  DEX is sort of a traditional dump stat, but at this point you would also be looking very much at WIS...knowing you have a good base will save and get to add CHA mod to it anyway, it would be tempting to leave WIS low. 

Now on the other hand, lets say you need it as a casting stat.  Sure you only need to have 11 Wis by level 4 to cast spells, and it's a slow progression from there, but it's still probably 2 points "wasted" at character creation.  And even worse if you want to play a race with a Wis penalty.

Lastly, if you ever decide to cast any offensive spell ever (and not really saying you should with this version of the Paladin), capping casting stat out at 14 will mean doing so is a waste of a standard action. 

Of course none of this is a big deal, but I'm just really against MAD.  While it's really the class features that make Tier 1 class alter the universe, there's also a suspicious trend of being able to focus on one or two abilities, while the Tier 5s and 6s are stuck deciding how to get at least 14 in each ability to make their build work.

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I have to blame Diablo 2 and DDO for the inspiration for these auras.  Both have very little use for buffing things outside combat, so my ideas were definitely coloured to fit with buffing defenses.  And yes, they very much help with the whole tank-defender aspect to the class.

Wait DDO?  Any chance you play on Ghallanda?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 05:19:21 AM by gabrion »

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2014, 05:33:19 AM »
Well it is true that with only 4 levels of spells a Paladin won't have to invest like crazy in WIS, but there are still a few things to think about.  Put it this way...if you were rolling up a new Paladin using a fix that had Cha as casting stat, and no real use for Wis, what would your dump stat be?  You probably want high STR to hit things in the face, CON for HP, a few points in INT so you don't get less skill points, and of course as much as you can afford in CHA.  DEX is sort of a traditional dump stat, but at this point you would also be looking very much at WIS...knowing you have a good base will save and get to add CHA mod to it anyway, it would be tempting to leave WIS low. 

Now on the other hand, lets say you need it as a casting stat.  Sure you only need to have 11 Wis by level 4 to cast spells, and it's a slow progression from there, but it's still probably 2 points "wasted" at character creation.  And even worse if you want to play a race with a Wis penalty.

Lastly, if you ever decide to cast any offensive spell ever (and not really saying you should with this version of the Paladin), capping casting stat out at 14 will mean doing so is a waste of a standard action. 

Of course none of this is a big deal, but I'm just really against MAD.  While it's really the class features that make Tier 1 class alter the universe, there's also a suspicious trend of being able to focus on one or two abilities, while the Tier 5s and 6s are stuck deciding how to get at least 14 in each ability to make their build work.

I see your point.  In that case, yes, casting will get shifted to purely Charisma-based.

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Quote
I have to blame Diablo 2 and DDO for the inspiration for these auras.  Both have very little use for buffing things outside combat, so my ideas were definitely coloured to fit with buffing defenses.  And yes, they very much help with the whole tank-defender aspect to the class.

Wait DDO?  Any chance you play on Ghallanda?

Haven't played it in a few years, and no that wasn't my main server.  If my memory serves me correctly, it was Sarlona.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2014, 03:15:42 PM »
Alright, I incorporated all those changes, and added the smite augments.  Let me know what you think!
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Offline Andion Isurand

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 05:40:49 AM »
I think a d12 HD should be reserved for non spell-casters, especially since you have a very generous amount of healing ability, and there are paladin spells out there that can grant you temporary hit points. I also think that the high base Will save is a bit much given that you already Divine Grace working for you.

I might suggest you keep the paladin's spellcasting feature based on wisdom. That way you could create a feat to allow your paladin spellcasting to be charisma-based instead... a feat that lies in contrast to how the Serenity feat makes your charisma-based paladin abilities key off of wisdom instead. That way, a standard paladin's abilities would remain divided between wisdom and charisma, until one of two feats were taken to focus those abilities on just one of the two ability scores.

Don't know what to say about the base features of the class... except that I would try confining the abilities gained at each class level to one, starting when the paladin's spells become available.

Although... you could make up for it by giving your paladin a caster level equal to his or her class level, which in turn would increase the minimum caster level of paladin spells for the purpose of crafting... which would allow you to reduce the spell level of some paladin spells by 1 and bring in a few spells from other class lists to give the paladin more flexibility. (Here's something I recently did to that effect.)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:59:33 AM by Andion Isurand »

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 03:11:41 PM »
@Andion: I gave the paladin d12 for HD because it's supposed to be the tank, able to take all kinds of punishment.  Kinda like the barbarian, which gets con boosts from its rage and DR in addition to the d12 HD.  And the high will save is to assist in reducing MAD by removing Wis as a necessary high stat.  Paladins already have enough other scores that need to be high (Str, Con, Cha) that adding more just weakens the whole class.

Limiting class features is rather defeatist, helping to guarantee a class without great spellcasting stays in the low tiers.  I did push things around to ensure that there's no more than 2 features in a given level outside of Aura of Good (which gives no benefits) and spells.  Besides, if you remove extra uses of Smite and Restoring Touch from the table (since those aren't new features), there's only the first 4 levels and a whole 4 other levels that actually get more than 1 feature.

I did give the class a full caster level.  Not for crafting purposes, though that is a minor side bonus.
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Offline Andion Isurand

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 04:01:21 PM »
Well, for the tanking role... I think this particular paladin would make the task of improving the barbarian or fighter to compete rather difficult. Unless you mean to just use martial adepts instead of the barbarian or fighter.

A paladin can can use battle blessing to heal, recover or give himself temporary hit points without slowing down his attack routine.

As is... the barbarian's extra health from raging doesn't work like temporary hit points.

This is why I think the paladin shouldn't need a d12 Hit Dice.

Improving his Will save because his wisdom is no longer a primary stat... what does that mean for other non-wisdom classes that currently have low base will saves?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 04:10:22 PM by Andion Isurand »

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 04:54:31 PM »
Considering I've already done a fighter rewrite ...

How many of those non-wisdom classes with poor base will saves have Mettle?
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Offline Andion Isurand

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2014, 05:01:06 PM »
You could make the paladin's Mettle a supernatural ability, and a part of what he or she gets from the power of faith and proper conduct.

If it wasn't for Divine Grace, I'd be giving the paladin a high base Will save as well.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:29:47 PM by Andion Isurand »

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2014, 05:51:00 PM »
Considering paladins lose all class feature, Ex or otherwise, if they fall from grace (all part of that faith and proper conduct), is it really necessary to make the ability vulnerable to AMF?
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Offline Andion Isurand

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2014, 06:15:55 PM »
Well, there aren't many effects that not magical and allow for a partial will save. I just suggested it that way so that Mettle would feel more like something placed upon the paladin from another source, and not necessarily an expression of high base saves.

Offline lieronet

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2014, 09:40:45 AM »
Something that jumps out at me is the spell level progression. Smoothing it out to a new spell level every three levels is much cleaner, and I don't think makes him any more or less powerful.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2014, 04:10:02 PM »
I had smoothed it out around the idea of 1/2 caster level progression, with a delay for starting spells until 4th level.  Since the CL got boosted to class level, I could shift 2nd level spells 1 level later, and 4th to 1 level earlier, which would indeed look better and not really change the power of the class at all.
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2014, 02:54:49 PM »
Finally figured out a decent (I think) method of allowing a paladin to move and full attack on the same turn.  I added a short new paragraph to the Holy Wings ability: "The paladin may also use his wings to fly short distances very quickly.  As a swift action, he may move up to his fly speed, but this uses up 30 minutes of his time for the day with the wings."  What do you guys think?
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Offline Braininthejar

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2014, 06:27:09 PM »
Very cool. reminds me of how angels fight in Diablo 3 cinematics.

I have some mixed feelings about the class abilities that imbue paladin's weapons with holy powers: quests to find or earn holy relic weapons are a big part of paladin stories.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Paladin Rewrite
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2014, 06:58:33 PM »
Very cool. reminds me of how angels fight in Diablo 3 cinematics.

I have some mixed feelings about the class abilities that imbue paladin's weapons with holy powers: quests to find or earn holy relic weapons are a big part of paladin stories.

Why would they stop searching for such things just because it doesn't buff them? Hell, wouldn't buffing them be rather dodgy for a supposedly 'good' character: retrieving a holy relic only because of the power it could grant them?