Author Topic: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?  (Read 15216 times)

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2011, 06:02:40 PM »
Random for monsters is pure fun though. They don't last more than one encounter to begin with, and it makes strategy a lot more flexible. Plus you can catch that guy checking the standard monster manual hp :)

Until the guy would do enough damage to kill the average, but not enough to kill the random number you generated dies because he couldn't kill the enemy fast enough. Same problem as PC HP being random, just manifesting in a different form.

So? Being able to kill the average HP value should be no guarantee you'll kill the individual monster in question. Variance happens, as does spells, feats or items that boost the monster's hit points anyway.

So... now you have to jack your damage up even more just to not randomly die all the time. Want to have to do triple digits at level 6 just to not die all the time? Probably not. It can be done, but you probably wouldn't want to.

I like how you take something and use it to go off on some self-assured conclusion of your own. Nevermind, I'm not going to argue with someone like that. It's never worth it and they never listen.

I like how you deny facts to talk about "fun" when it isn't especially enjoyable to have the enemy survive at single digits or some other low but > 0 number and then kill you, especially if they'd normally be dead by now.

I'm going to select a level 5 creature at random.

Average: 63 HP.
Range: 42-84 HP.

If you get a weak one, it dies a bit easier but what about the second one, and the third?
If you get a high one, you now need up to a third more damage to kill it before it kills you, because every round you don't kill it is another round for it to do whatever it wants to you. So even though you didn't directly improve its offense, you still did increase the amount of damage it will do, thereby drastically increasing the chance someone dies.

Weapon damage mostly comes from static modifiers. A character at this same level would be swinging for 2d4+13 before accounting for Power Attack and such which will increase the static modifier.

Offline Eldritch_Lord

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2011, 07:17:34 PM »
One compromise I've seen between the fun of rolling vs. the predictability of average HP is to reroll all HP and take the better of that and [current HP + min next level HP].  For instance, a fighter with 14 Con starts out with 12 HP at 1st level, then at 2nd level he would roll 2d10+4 and take that if it's higher than 15 HP (his current 12 plus the minimum of 1d10+2).  It has some benefits over taking average, in that you have the potential for higher HP, and has some benefits over normal rolling, in that low rolls aren't a permanent detriment.

Offline Shadowhunter

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2011, 07:27:06 PM »
My players roll for HP and they like it. But I suppose the fact that I houserule the hit dice is a contributing factor.
d12 players roll a d4+8
d10 players roll a d4+6
etc.

I want the higher base dice to matter more than it usually does.

Offline SneeR

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2011, 07:38:51 PM »
My players roll for HP and they like it. But I suppose the fact that I houserule the hit dice is a contributing factor.
d12 players roll a d4+8
d10 players roll a d4+6
etc.

I want the higher base dice to matter more than it usually does.

I like that!
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Offline Seerow

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2011, 11:54:13 PM »
My players roll for HP and they like it. But I suppose the fact that I houserule the hit dice is a contributing factor.
d12 players roll a d4+8
d10 players roll a d4+6
etc.

I want the higher base dice to matter more than it usually does.

I like this. There's a couple other methods I like as well that haven't been mentioned that I saw:

1) Roll your HP twice at each level, take the average, round up. While this makes it less likely you get that tasty max, it also means less likely for the min, and more likely to be closer to the average value, while still allowing for variation.


2) If your con modifier is at least +3, you may trade in bonus HP from con for extra hit die rolls, at a rate of 3 HP per hit die. So a Barbarian with 18 Con may choose to have 2d12+1 instead of 1d12+4. This makes higher hit dice matter more if you have a good con. A d12 class with a con focus can end up gaining a substantial amount of HP with this. Can also be combined with #1 to minimize randomness, and make it more of a straight boost. This has the added benefit of being relatively little use to d8 hd characters, and no use to anyone below that (unless they're feeling lucky...)

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2011, 06:36:27 AM »
One compromise I've seen between the fun of rolling vs. the predictability of average HP is to reroll all HP and take the better of that and [current HP + min next level HP].  For instance, a fighter with 14 Con starts out with 12 HP at 1st level, then at 2nd level he would roll 2d10+4 and take that if it's higher than 15 HP (his current 12 plus the minimum of 1d10+2).  It has some benefits over taking average, in that you have the potential for higher HP, and has some benefits over normal rolling, in that low rolls aren't a permanent detriment.

Someone likes the Wizardry series.

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2011, 07:56:36 AM »
My players roll for HP and they like it. But I suppose the fact that I houserule the hit dice is a contributing factor.
d12 players roll a d4+8
d10 players roll a d4+6
etc.

I want the higher base dice to matter more than it usually does.

This is a pretty nice idea. I like it.

I personally don't roll for HP (or stats for that matter, I like everything nice, ordered and predictable) but I do have a couple of guys in my group that enjoy the randomness of it. Even so, most of them usually roll only the small dice (d4, d6 and d8 sometimes) because it doesn't matter that much. Even if you roll a 1 on a d6, you're only 2-3 HP below average. Rolling a 1 on a d12 on the other hand puts you twice as much behind (5-6 HP).

Offline Eldritch_Lord

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2011, 04:03:07 PM »
One compromise I've seen between the fun of rolling vs. the predictability of average HP is to reroll all HP and take the better of that and [current HP + min next level HP].  For instance, a fighter with 14 Con starts out with 12 HP at 1st level, then at 2nd level he would roll 2d10+4 and take that if it's higher than 15 HP (his current 12 plus the minimum of 1d10+2).  It has some benefits over taking average, in that you have the potential for higher HP, and has some benefits over normal rolling, in that low rolls aren't a permanent detriment.

Someone likes the Wizardry series.

Wizardry series?  Is that yet another d20 variant out there?

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2011, 04:35:20 PM »
One compromise I've seen between the fun of rolling vs. the predictability of average HP is to reroll all HP and take the better of that and [current HP + min next level HP].  For instance, a fighter with 14 Con starts out with 12 HP at 1st level, then at 2nd level he would roll 2d10+4 and take that if it's higher than 15 HP (his current 12 plus the minimum of 1d10+2).  It has some benefits over taking average, in that you have the potential for higher HP, and has some benefits over normal rolling, in that low rolls aren't a permanent detriment.

Someone likes the Wizardry series.

Wizardry series?  Is that yet another d20 variant out there?

Facepalm.

Offline Libertad

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2011, 04:38:12 PM »
My players roll for HP and they like it. But I suppose the fact that I houserule the hit dice is a contributing factor.
d12 players roll a d4+8
d10 players roll a d4+6
etc.

I want the higher base dice to matter more than it usually does.

That houserule was also used in Monte Cook's Iron Heroes.

Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2011, 04:55:01 PM »
We pretty much did away with rolling hp for the same reasons as others, low HP just hurts so bad, and because we had too many people using it as a chance to cheat. They would often end up with more HP than if they had rolled max on every die. Fortunately I'm not having to deal with the cheaters anymore, but I still keep the set number system (either half+1 or just max) so that I can always know what my players should have so I can accommodate that in combat.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2011, 09:17:03 PM »
I started gaming back in 2E, and several players I game with started with me then. So certain changes I've made to make things less random have always been met with skepticism. I had a hard time getting them on point buy. They love rolling for HP. I basically started using a method where if they rolled under half, they just got half. So on a d6, you'd always get at least 3 HP. It's sort of the best of both worlds.

Regarding monsters, I usually use the average from the MM just for speed. If the monster only has a handful of HD, I may roll them just to mix it up. NPCs will often get rolled, and special NPCs and bosses use the same method I use for the PCs.
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Offline Eldritch_Lord

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2011, 05:00:42 PM »
Someone likes the Wizardry series.

Wizardry series?  Is that yet another d20 variant out there?

Facepalm.

Well excuse me for not finding anything under the Wikipedia entry for a cRPG regarding their HP-rolling scheme and wondering if you were referring to something else.  I assume that is what you were referring to, then?

Quote from: archangel.arcanis
We pretty much did away with rolling hp for the same reasons as others, low HP just hurts so bad, and because we had too many people using it as a chance to cheat. They would often end up with more HP than if they had rolled max on every die. Fortunately I'm not having to deal with the cheaters anymore, but I still keep the set number system (either half+1 or just max) so that I can always know what my players should have so I can accommodate that in combat.

Did you switch from rolling stats to point buy for the same reason, or did the cheaters only mess with their HP totals?

Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2011, 05:05:45 PM »
Someone likes the Wizardry series.

Wizardry series?  Is that yet another d20 variant out there?

Facepalm.

Well excuse me for not finding anything under the Wikipedia entry for a cRPG regarding their HP-rolling scheme and wondering if you were referring to something else.  I assume that is what you were referring to, then?

Quote from: archangel.arcanis
We pretty much did away with rolling hp for the same reasons as others, low HP just hurts so bad, and because we had too many people using it as a chance to cheat. They would often end up with more HP than if they had rolled max on every die. Fortunately I'm not having to deal with the cheaters anymore, but I still keep the set number system (either half+1 or just max) so that I can always know what my players should have so I can accommodate that in combat.

Did you switch from rolling stats to point buy for the same reason, or did the cheaters only mess with their HP totals?

Rolling stats was always written down by the DM. Though I did get my group to switch to point buy after one game where I had a character with 3 18s and 3 16s, the DM practically shit himself after watching me roll that then agreed future games were point buy.

Offline LordBlades

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2011, 02:44:55 AM »

Rolling stats was always written down by the DM. Though I did get my group to switch to point buy after one game where I had a character with 3 18s and 3 16s, the DM practically shit himself after watching me roll that then agreed future games were point buy.

It sucks even more when such a character ends up in the same party with a character whose stats are barely above the reroll limit.

Offline SneeR

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2011, 03:19:27 AM »

Rolling stats was always written down by the DM. Though I did get my group to switch to point buy after one game where I had a character with 3 18s and 3 16s, the DM practically shit himself after watching me roll that then agreed future games were point buy.

It sucks even more when such a character ends up in the same party with a character whose stats are barely above the reroll limit.

That happened to me once. SOmeone in my party had stats all above 13 including an 18 and 16. Everyone in my group says that d6s hate me.

Suffice to say that I know why A monk should not be played, especially when your highest stat is a 14, followed by 2 13s, 12, 10, and 8.
Ugh.  :nonono

Spent an hour of game time trying to get a sparrow to like me with my 8 CHA and no Handle Animal while other people actually adventured.
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2011, 07:56:56 AM »
Finally convinced my old group to stop using dice rolls when the Wizard had more HP than the Barbarian at 4th level, with no buffs.  (I mean, it was in 3.0, and the Wizard had max CON and a toad Familiar, but still. . . .)
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2011, 08:33:42 AM »

That happened to me once. SOmeone in my party had stats all above 13 including an 18 and 16. Everyone in my group says that d6s hate me.

Suffice to say that I know why A monk should not be played, especially when your highest stat is a 14, followed by 2 13s, 12, 10, and 8.
Ugh.  :nonono

Spent an hour of game time trying to get a sparrow to like me with my 8 CHA and no Handle Animal while other people actually adventured.

My most horrific story of this kind involves a cleric whose dump stat was a 15(he rolled something like 18,18,17,17,16,15) and a duskblade who's biggest stat was also a 15. Since then my group enforces limits on rolling (our standard is 32 pb or you can roll; If you're unhappoy with the roll you can ditch it and take 28 point buy).
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 08:36:14 AM by LordBlades »

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2011, 09:30:00 PM »
In the game I'm running now we've agreed on max hit points for all characters. So far it has worked well. Warrior types are much more durable, as they should be, at least in straight-up combat.

Personally, I HATE rolling for hit points and stats. You always have an imbalance between PCs and hit points and abilities are just too fundamental for a character's build to have them depend on random chance. Now once the character is built, then I love random dice rolls in combat and in encounters.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 09:17:07 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Rolling For HP - Thrill or Dread?
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2011, 08:26:48 AM »
Finally convinced my old group to stop using dice rolls when the Wizard had more HP than the Barbarian at 4th level, with no buffs.  (I mean, it was in 3.0, and the Wizard had max CON and a toad Familiar, but still. . . .)
This reminds me of a 2E wizard I ran (with Skills & Powers and Spells & Magic). With Spells & Magic, I could set up my wizard to have d8 HD. Skills & Powers let you spend two of your Character Points to reroll your HD, but you could only do that once. So, at the expense of some non-weapon proficinencies (kinda like skill points), I could reroll my HD any time it was too low. Also, I think I might have had a 16 Con, which gave me the biggest HP boost I could get as a wizard. This netted me more HP than the fighters and paladins in the group.

They all thought I was cheating when they heard how many HP I had. It was a bit of a pain to explain it all to them.
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