Author Topic: Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 27518 times)

Offline Garryl

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Discussion and Suggestions
« on: June 27, 2012, 07:41:23 AM »
Here's the thread for all of your discussion and suggestion needs.

Typos:
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Bugs and balance notes:
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« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 10:38:22 PM by Garryl »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2012, 08:41:45 AM »
For the death knight:

How about a recovery mechanism based on taking damage?  Basically deal damage to self to recover a maneuver based on the maneuver's level... and then a feat to allow others to take the damage for you, but has to be willing.  Then you can perform neg energy maneuvers on yourself to heal.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2012, 11:35:34 PM »
Undying Call should probably be Knowledge (Religion).

EDIT: and give the Death Knight access to Twin Soul, too.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 09:24:55 AM »
Which one's Twin Soul? That's the one Prime made about working together with your animal companion/special mount/whatever, right?

I'm having a little trouble with the Death Knight, actually, as you can probably tell by all the mish-mashed ideas sitting in that post. I'll probably wind up doing most of them as ACFs for whatever I do settle on down the line. Right now I'm dissatisfied with the Knight's Challenge/Command thing because it's like an alternate resource and martial adepts should be focused on their maneuvers, right? Also along those lines, it eats up swift actions that the DK should be spending on boosts instead. Only, I still don't know what to replace it with. So I'm a little stuck.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 11:00:31 AM »
Which one's Twin Soul? That's the one Prime made about working together with your animal companion/special mount/whatever, right?
It seems I meant Twin Spirit.  Mounted shenanigans by TDO.

Quote
I'm having a little trouble with the Death Knight, actually, as you can probably tell by all the mish-mashed ideas sitting in that post. I'll probably wind up doing most of them as ACFs for whatever I do settle on down the line. Right now I'm dissatisfied with the Knight's Challenge/Command thing because it's like an alternate resource and martial adepts should be focused on their maneuvers, right? Also along those lines, it eats up swift actions that the DK should be spending on boosts instead. Only, I still don't know what to replace it with. So I'm a little stuck.
I'll take a look at it and brainstorm a little.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2012, 02:20:46 PM »
I don't see the mount as integral enough to the class for Twin Spirit to be applicable. The DK doesn't get it until 5th level, after all. Maybe for an ACF that shifts the mount to 1st level and gives some Domeskipper-like qualities to the maneuver use and recovery?

Also, the Knight's Command ACF will let you recover your maneuvers whenever you kill or destroy (dropping to 0/unconscious isn't enough) the target of your Hysteria.

There's going to be one ACF (Army of the Dead?) that trades away your mount for a skeletal cohort/comapnion at 1st level (and grants the Undead Leadership feat at 6th). I think that's the best place to the "recover by damaging your allies" recovery mode, where you have in and of yourself some willing souls ready to draw upon. Otherwise, it's a useless ability in a solo game, and I'd rather avoid that.

I love that I can think of all these wonderful ACFs for the Death Knight class. I hate that for all of the wonderful ACFs I can think of, I can't settle on one good baseline!

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 04:49:37 PM »
OK, so here's some general notes/advice.

(a) If you're worried about schticks that are taking up actions that would be spent on maneuvers, make them powered by expending maneuvers, and have the effect be dependent on the maneuver level.  That way there's auto-scaling, and it's essentially a class feateuver.
(b) It seems like you have a bunch of ideas here.  My suggestion is: don't worry about fitting everything into one class and/or tacking on a bunch of ACFs.  Figure out what you want the class to be like, and then make a couple prestige classes, feat chains, or ACFs (or even another base class) which explore options.

Part of the problem is you have a glut of ideas for class features, but that's all it is right now -- a collection of cool class features.  So, here's what Death Knight means to me: a warrior who commands the power of undeath.  Oversimplification? Maybe, but look at everything that isn't in there.

Brainstormage (feel free to use all or none of this):
~Give what's essentially an undead animal companion from level 1.  You could literally have it just be a normal animal companion with one of the undead templates on it.  Then, make a 5-to-8-level prc that's enterable at level 3, and requires X ranks in Ride (and maybe Mounted Combat), which turns it into an undead mount.  Give access to mounted disciplines there.
~Keep the gradual type change and immunities.  It's a time-honored tradition, at least in Magipunk :P and it seems really integral to the flavor for me.
~What's the point of knight's command?  I think fear-based effects make more sense than drawing aggro.  Give immunity-piercing, and then have something like whenever you initiate a maneuver, the target has to make a save vs fear.  Let them swap a stance for a frightful presence effect.  Alternatively, make this a discipline (or use Stygian Nightmare).
~You have a discipline for short-term animation, cold&neg damage, and energy drain.  With the fear effects, that's basically all of a dread necro's fun, except for the ability to control long-term minions.  So for the other real ability, make it so you can choose (via paying some cost) to animate + control someone as you slay them.  Makes the class much scarier to go up against: you know that if you fall, the guy will make a mockery of your life by making you serve him past death.  They can only control X HD of creatures, which scales up, and also make more powerful minions.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2012, 05:17:56 PM »
I'm very hesitant around transformation into undead. It just has so many sweeping changes from the living types that I'm afraid of mucking things up. The loss of a Con score (for a melee combatant in particular) could very well make a level where the character becomes weaker instead of stronger. I'd love a hand with the transformation if you can lend one. I should probably also get my hands on a copy of Heroes of Horror so I can read how the Dread Necromancer does it, too.

Regarding Knight's Command, I thought I only picked out the three Knight's Challenges that I felt really fit. The +damage vs. a single opponent, the fear vs. weak foes, and the unkillable thing. Did I misread one of them?
   Part of the idea behind Knight's Command was making the anti-Knight (notice the same chassis, but very different focus). The other was that it fit well some of the WoW Death Knight ability names that were rattling around my head, so why not toss it in the pot and see how it tastes? Apparently not as good as I thought at the time.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 05:25:56 PM »
I will admit that I neither know WoW nor looked at the PhB2 Knight.  So take that part with a grain of salt...

And I would let them keep the Con score.  Take the cue from Lifetorn.  I'm happy to help w/ the transformation part.

EDIT: Even better.

Give them a progression of undead immunities and abilities.  At level 20, don't actually give them the Undead type.  Give the last of the immunities, and then let them count as being of the Undead type whenever it would be beneficial.  That way they can't be turned, but can still benefit from stuff.  Functionally undead.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 05:31:42 PM by sirpercival »
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Offline Amechra

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2012, 12:31:32 PM »
Knight's Command: Just, you know, have them able to expend a maneuver to use it?
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 03:26:01 PM »
Just found this. Seems like a very good start to base the "turn into an undead" abilities off of.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 03:44:18 PM »
Just found this. Seems like a very good start to base the "turn into an undead" abilities off of.

Yes, absolutely.

EDIT: Though I will say that I think it's better if you let them keep the Con score.  Removing an ability score at 20th which is so integral before then makes it tough to plan out your levels & gear.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 03:46:14 PM by sirpercival »
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 04:19:40 PM »
I am in no way planning on flat-out removing their Con score. If I do (and I probably won't, it's too much hassle), I'd swap the relevant parts (Fort saves, HP) over to Cha by level 5.

Offline TravelLog

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 03:06:00 AM »
Ever coming back to this?
Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 10:30:19 AM »
Possibly, but it won't be for a while even if I do. I'm mostly working on Power of Cybernetics these days when I do D&D homebrewing. I mostly forgot about this, actually.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2014, 01:52:26 AM »
I'm back for a bit. I've been grappling with the Death Knight class, so I decided to write a different class instead. Meet the Spirit Warrior. I will come back to the Death Knight once I figure out what I actually want from it (the latest of which being just a Crusader ACF that exchanges all three standard disciplines, then maybe swaps out Steely Resolve, Furious Counterstrike, and Indomitable Soul for Cha to hp/level and Cha to Fort saves).

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2014, 11:43:25 PM »
I had a very productive weekend working on this. Restless Bones and Frozen Night are nearly done, and are missing only a half-dozen maneuvers between them. Undying call is a bit further away, with a little over half of its maneuvers complete. The Death Knight class is nearly done. All of it's class features are in place. What's missing is the available mount lists for Death's Steed. And, while I was at it, I revised the Spirit Warrior to use some fancier tables.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 01:48:44 PM »
The Returned template is complete.

Edit: Also added a post for amalgam damage, since many Undying Call maneuvers (spirit damage) and a few Frozen Night maneuvers (uttercold damage) use it.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 02:43:24 PM by Garryl »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2014, 10:05:32 AM »
Bone Dance needs some clarification on whether the puppet has its own actions or not. It seems yes, but the "you control it like you would a limb" kinda belies that, given that each of your limbs does not get its own actions (though that would be awesome... lol). So clarify, pls :)

Returned template, maybe an ability which switches maneuver save DCs to Wisdom?

A couple typos in the Amalgam Damage post. Bludgeonging in three places, swapped notes for Spirit and Radiant (actually you should probably switch the other stuff to preserve alphabetical order)... also no slashing amalgams? What about, like, erosive (acid & slashing), or pneumatic (sonic & slashing)? Or something?
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2014, 10:16:17 AM »
Thanks for the feedback. Typos corrected.

Defined Pneumatic as a sonic/magical slashing amalgam damage type. I have no intense desire to define names for every combination of damage types at this time. The name is just a common way to refer to specific amalgamations, so or single effects using a given combination no name is even needed, and any homebrew that wants to use some undefined combination can just make up its own name.

Clarified that Bone Dance has its own actions, and that it doesn't take equipment or transfer magic that's affecting you.

No plans to add maneuver DC shifting for Returned at present, although it sounds like a better idea the more I think about it.

Added a bunch more maneuvers. Hungering Cold in Frozen Night and Ethereal Step, Dispersion, Soul Barrier, Dark Command, Beyond the Veil, and Spirit Shift in Undying Call.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:20:26 AM by Garryl »