Author Topic: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards  (Read 167545 times)

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #720 on: August 24, 2018, 12:54:36 AM »
SorO being only the simplest case.
Whaaaat? It's not like some guy just Grappled Baha and then ignored the limit of Light (or mecha "defensive") weapons while Grappling and just kept full-attacking with a ball and chain or something for a "fun" moment of wondering if Baha will even have a jaw left to chew supper after his mech blows up on the first hit and we're moving past that cus like Baha should survive anyway. /s

and MAYBE set some redeeming qualities for this guy
Redeeming quality goal number 1: Hugo learns to use a cell phone instead of trying to enter a girl's cockpit?

*Looks at the edit*
Nope, not that. Oooook.
Also I call dibs on your Spell "Invincibility", is it an Immediate Action so I can just taunt the guy using a wrecking ball and is licking his hammer sexually suggestive? And with that note, I srsly need some sleep.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 01:01:09 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #721 on: August 24, 2018, 01:12:49 AM »
Do be careful, mecha weapons do force damage to nonmechas so a ghost Hugo might get swatted hard -_-'

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #722 on: August 24, 2018, 01:58:12 AM »
Ugh, fine. I'm giving you an actual rundown of the actions. AGAIN. I just hope it's not wasted by bullshit this time.

I use my standard action to crash through a bunch of discs with Retributive Image in them (or Persistent Image, whichever gets me the greatest amount of illusory Hugos) as well as a Dimension Door at the end so I'm floating right in front of the Neikapool's cockpit. Alert so I can dodge a stray AoO if it gets to me. and Invincibility so I can tank it if they still hit. Move so I can get into the cockpit.

Quote from: Dimension Door
After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.

For starters, Hugo's stuck in place after dimension dooring.

By my calculations, each 10-foot cube gives me approximately 8-12 Hugos, and it starts at 4 +1/CL, which means... not counting the real Hugo, there are between 144-216 copies of him per Retributive Image disc. For the sake of simplicity, let's say there's five of them.

For the sake of simplicity, let's use what we already had agreed on:

-I get the idea of trying to limit the number of disks thrown per round, but you'll remember Hugo tends to use predetermined "configurations" (I'm the one who ends up picking them on the run). So let's say he could save up to Int mod in "configurations" (this is a mage weapon after all and Int is related to remembering stuff) with up to four disks per configuration (later upgrades could increase that amount), or up to his Dex mod for on-the-fly stuff.
Hugo's Int mod is only +4 as per his sheet. This will be what, the 3rd configuration used for this campaign day? Not sure, but the cap is still only 4 disks.

Then there's the matter of distance. Nei already was 150 mu away from hugo, that's 900 feet, barely in range of long-range on-foot spells from Hugo (960 feet from 400+(14*40)). But that was before Katherine moved away to get between Nei and her approaching ship, which I'm pretty sure would be over 10 mu (60 feet), leaving Nei out of range of even on-foot long-range spells from Hugo. However I didn't give an exact distance, so I'm letting this one slide... But Nei could still use some immediate-action movement of her own to simply get at a safe distance from the Hugo horde.

Then of course, Nei's packing True Sight like a good high-level girl that once had an illusionist boyfriend.

SorO being only the simplest case.
Whaaaat? It's not like some guy just Grappled Baha and then ignored the limit of Light (or mecha "defensive") weapons while Grappling and just kept full-attacking with a ball and chain or something for a "fun" moment of wondering if Baha will even have a jaw left to chew supper after his mech blows up on the first hit and we're moving past that cus like Baha should survive anyway. /s
If Baha failed any of the grapple checks, the pirate would be happy to just hold on.

But good point, made grabbing weapons useable in a grapple too.

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #723 on: August 24, 2018, 02:19:12 AM »
Grabbing weapons can be used in a grapple? That doesn't make sense. Cause the weapon is already being used to maintain the grapple. Really, I think rather than outright being able to continue using a grabbing weapon that is already grappling someone to continue hitting that victim as if it wasn't grappling already, you could instead allow grabbing weapons to do constrict damage on successful grapple checks versus those already grappled foes.

That at least makes sense over being able to use a single weapon in multiple different ways simultaneously.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #724 on: August 24, 2018, 03:08:08 AM »
Example of a Wrench Mace in use to grab an opponent and finish them off.

There was also that dude in IBO that had a pair of giant mecha pliers which first grabbed the opponent then just kept closing in until the victim was cut in half.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 03:11:51 AM by oslecamo »

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #725 on: August 24, 2018, 04:34:01 AM »
So like neither of your examples are actually grappling, just saying. The wrech thing is a straight up pile-driver.

And even if we agreed they were, both of your examples are made with tools specifically for grabbing objects. As well, they grab with a part that is capable and intended for further compression, i.e., constricting.

Your examples against are actually examples for my point -_-'

To finish, we can't really compare those to, basically, a flail that you're using.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 04:36:45 AM by ketaro »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #726 on: August 24, 2018, 05:05:48 AM »
So like neither of your examples are actually grappling, just saying. The wrech thing is a straight up pile-driver.

And even if we agreed they were, both of your examples are made with tools specifically for grabbing objects. As well, they grab with a part that is capable and intended for further compression, i.e., constricting.

Your examples against are actually examples for my point -_-'
Ok, let's assume you're right for a moment.

How exactly do you want me to stat that?

There's no constrict damage formula. It's all case-by-case basis.

Constrict deals damage right after the grapple. For any grapple. What if you have multiple grabbing weapons? What if you have one heavy grabbing weapon with big constrict damage but get fast grapples from somewhere else?

Constrict is bludgeoning damage only, while stuff like giant pliers would be dealing slashing damage.

tl:dr: I could make it Constrict, but would need to add a million exception clauses to try to make it make sense, while just writing down "you can keep making attacks with the weapon" is all more of simple, balanced and effective.

After all, cutting stuff with the same set of giant pliers should be dealing constant damage outside of other abilities.

To finish, we can't really compare those to, basically, a flail that you're using.
It's a giant hook actually.

Hooks pretty good for grabbing stuff too. But after a hook i stuck inside something, if you keep moving the hook too violently? Whatever the hook is stuck inside of will be messed up pretty fast.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #727 on: August 24, 2018, 10:47:52 AM »
How exactly do you want me to stat that?
Like D&D already did.

Per Sharktooth Staff, SS49, with a successful attack you can initiate a Grapple as a Free Action and you don't provoke an AoO like normal. You don't have to move into their square (ie smaller creatures do not gain soft cover). You automatically hit, ignoring the penalized attack roll. And you get to use a Two-Handed weapon with full damage bonuses. But in exchange for all of this, you only deal damage once per round.

Because yes, technically the weapon is grappling them. If you want to say while grappling a creature you can pick them up and pale drive them into them, well why would that be exclusively linked to a hook rather than your hand? See also Setting Sun in Tome of Battle, the art of slamming people into other people and objects.

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #728 on: August 24, 2018, 12:18:04 PM »
You're right, it's simple and effective, but it's not balanced. The pro of grappling is shutting down an opponents actions, the con is doing the same to yourself. Crowd control is overwhelmingly powerful like that. You're trying to eliminate any downside to committing to a grapple.

Also I did suggest just using the base weapons damage as the constrict damage so there wouldn't be anything to calculate. You can even state that the damage type is the same as the base weapons'.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #729 on: August 24, 2018, 01:14:45 PM »
Ugh, fine. I'm giving you an actual rundown of the actions. AGAIN. I just hope it's not wasted by bullshit this time.

I use my standard action to crash through a bunch of discs with Retributive Image in them (or Persistent Image, whichever gets me the greatest amount of illusory Hugos) as well as a Dimension Door at the end so I'm floating right in front of the Neikapool's cockpit. Alert so I can dodge a stray AoO if it gets to me. and Invincibility so I can tank it if they still hit. Move so I can get into the cockpit.

Quote from: Dimension Door
After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.

For starters, Hugo's stuck in place after dimension dooring.

By my calculations, each 10-foot cube gives me approximately 8-12 Hugos, and it starts at 4 +1/CL, which means... not counting the real Hugo, there are between 144-216 copies of him per Retributive Image disc. For the sake of simplicity, let's say there's five of them.

For the sake of simplicity, let's use what we already had agreed on:

-I get the idea of trying to limit the number of disks thrown per round, but you'll remember Hugo tends to use predetermined "configurations" (I'm the one who ends up picking them on the run). So let's say he could save up to Int mod in "configurations" (this is a mage weapon after all and Int is related to remembering stuff) with up to four disks per configuration (later upgrades could increase that amount), or up to his Dex mod for on-the-fly stuff.
Hugo's Int mod is only +4 as per his sheet. This will be what, the 3rd configuration used for this campaign day? Not sure, but the cap is still only 4 disks.

Then there's the matter of distance. Nei already was 150 mu away from hugo, that's 900 feet, barely in range of long-range on-foot spells from Hugo (960 feet from 400+(14*40)). But that was before Katherine moved away to get between Nei and her approaching ship, which I'm pretty sure would be over 10 mu (60 feet), leaving Nei out of range of even on-foot long-range spells from Hugo. However I didn't give an exact distance, so I'm letting this one slide... But Nei could still use some immediate-action movement of her own to simply get at a safe distance from the Hugo horde.

Then of course, Nei's packing True Sight like a good high-level girl that once had an illusionist boyfriend.

SorO being only the simplest case.
Whaaaat? It's not like some guy just Grappled Baha and then ignored the limit of Light (or mecha "defensive") weapons while Grappling and just kept full-attacking with a ball and chain or something for a "fun" moment of wondering if Baha will even have a jaw left to chew supper after his mech blows up on the first hit and we're moving past that cus like Baha should survive anyway. /s
If Baha failed any of the grapple checks, the pirate would be happy to just hold on.

But good point, made grabbing weapons useable in a grapple too.

Because of course she is, why not completely inutilize the illusionist - OHWAITI'MAFUCKINGSHADOWCRAFTMAGE.

Also FINE, I use TELEPORT instead of DIMENSION DOOR, WHICH HAS NO SUCH MOBILITY CLAUSE OR RANGE ISSUE.

See what I mean? Why bother detailing my actions if you're just going to shoot them down!

Also, the configuration thing is only for the disc launcher. Hugo's just drawing discs the old-fashioned way out of a handy haversack or whatever. He DOES have Quick Draw, remember? He could just as easily draw-drop as free actions and smash them on the ground rather than in his hands.

EDIT: Either way the Hugo Army is meant to prevent AoOs from someone who isn't her. Even if she does AoO him, he's got Alert and Invincibility up. And she's in a mecha to boot - can a mecha-scale weapon hit a medium-size creature without some splash? Unless the answer is yes, she's bound to hit some of the fake Hugos too.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 01:22:01 PM by Kuroimaken »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #730 on: August 24, 2018, 02:21:27 PM »
You're right, it's simple and effective, but it's not balanced. The pro of grappling is shutting down an opponents actions, the con is doing the same to yourself.
Actually it is.

You quote on quote shut your self down, on a tactic you specialized in but your opponent didn't, to shut someone else down. A 1:1 exchange is equal, and thats what makes crowd control so borked.

Also you are forgetting about Heavy weapons, Ols over gratuitously handed out the dice on them since you can only use them once per round anyway. Being able to auto hit for (9d12+(strmod*2)+mods)*2 or w/e using a Twinned Grappler isn't being locked down anymore than Combat Brute locks an ubercharger down. You are just trading some of your AC away.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 07:06:37 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #731 on: August 24, 2018, 03:59:49 PM »
...I just noticed something in the True Seeing description. Does the "see through illusions" part equate to automatically passing a disbelief Will save?
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Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #732 on: August 24, 2018, 04:03:17 PM »
*shrugs* Okay.

I'ma just keep rolling with the hits like I do, whatevs~ Is cool.

Kuro, he wouldn't be "shutting you down" so much if you were actually doing things you know you can do instead of just tossing assumptions around. For the most part, his denying of your actions so far seem to be due to you not being clear about rules, both SRW ones and in the case of Dimension Door, regular core rules.

I know I get lost on this stuff to sometimes. Not too long ago I was pming Os about certain maneuver and spirit interactions for my previous turn cause I just didn't know if I could actually do what I wanted to do despite that it all looked viably legal. Turned out it wasn't -_-'
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 04:08:37 PM by ketaro »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #733 on: August 27, 2018, 10:12:36 AM »
How exactly do you want me to stat that?
Like D&D already did.

Per Sharktooth Staff, SS49, with a successful attack you can initiate a Grapple as a Free Action and you don't provoke an AoO like normal. You don't have to move into their square (ie smaller creatures do not gain soft cover). You automatically hit, ignoring the penalized attack roll. And you get to use a Two-Handed weapon with full damage bonuses. But in exchange for all of this, you only deal damage once per round.
You're making up half that stuff because the actual book text is pretty unclear. I know it because I already had players want to use that exotic weapon and ask me to rule what exactly happens.

Quote
A wielder who hits a Small or Medium-size opponent with a sharktooth staff does normal damage and can immediately initiate a grapple as
a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity (see Grapple in Chapter 8 of the Player ’s Handbook). The wielder of a sharktooth staff may choose to deal normal damage(WTF COUNTS AS "NORMAL" DAMAGE? POWER ATTACK FOR MAX? MAGIC BONUS?) for the weapon on subsequent rounds without making further attack rolls against the grappled victim(YAY FOR NO MENTION OF ACTUAL ACTION! OR HOW MUCH TIMES YOU CAN DO IT PER ROUND!)

So it's just a lost simpler and saner to say "you can keep whacking them with the damn weapon with normal attack rules".

Because yes, technically the weapon is grappling them. If you want to say while grappling a creature you can pick them up and pale drive them into them, well why would that be exclusively linked to a hook rather than your hand? See also Setting Sun in Tome of Battle, the art of slamming people into other people and objects.

Thank you for confirming again how little you actually read since otherwise you would've noticed I've also written plenty of fancy grappling maneuvers.

You're right, it's simple and effective, but it's not balanced. The pro of grappling is shutting down an opponents actions, the con is doing the same to yourself. Crowd control is overwhelmingly powerful like that. You're trying to eliminate any downside to committing to a grapple.

Also I did suggest just using the base weapons damage as the constrict damage so there wouldn't be anything to calculate. You can even state that the damage type is the same as the base weapons'.
And again, constrict damage happens when the grapple roll is sucessful. Which means right after the weapon hits, so you end up dealing heavy weapon damage then constrict damage right away. And then it's not that hard to roll a bunch more grapples every round to multiply that heavy damage. It's a lot more damage.

As for disadvantages, you still end up easier to hit and mobility is heavily restricted too, plus you still only get to hit the grappled guy. It's not much of a crowd you're controlling when it's a single target.

Ugh, fine. I'm giving you an actual rundown of the actions. AGAIN. I just hope it's not wasted by bullshit this time.

I use my standard action to crash through a bunch of discs with Retributive Image in them (or Persistent Image, whichever gets me the greatest amount of illusory Hugos) as well as a Dimension Door at the end so I'm floating right in front of the Neikapool's cockpit. Alert so I can dodge a stray AoO if it gets to me. and Invincibility so I can tank it if they still hit. Move so I can get into the cockpit.

Quote from: Dimension Door
After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.

For starters, Hugo's stuck in place after dimension dooring.

By my calculations, each 10-foot cube gives me approximately 8-12 Hugos, and it starts at 4 +1/CL, which means... not counting the real Hugo, there are between 144-216 copies of him per Retributive Image disc. For the sake of simplicity, let's say there's five of them.

For the sake of simplicity, let's use what we already had agreed on:

-I get the idea of trying to limit the number of disks thrown per round, but you'll remember Hugo tends to use predetermined "configurations" (I'm the one who ends up picking them on the run). So let's say he could save up to Int mod in "configurations" (this is a mage weapon after all and Int is related to remembering stuff) with up to four disks per configuration (later upgrades could increase that amount), or up to his Dex mod for on-the-fly stuff.
Hugo's Int mod is only +4 as per his sheet. This will be what, the 3rd configuration used for this campaign day? Not sure, but the cap is still only 4 disks.

Then there's the matter of distance. Nei already was 150 mu away from hugo, that's 900 feet, barely in range of long-range on-foot spells from Hugo (960 feet from 400+(14*40)). But that was before Katherine moved away to get between Nei and her approaching ship, which I'm pretty sure would be over 10 mu (60 feet), leaving Nei out of range of even on-foot long-range spells from Hugo. However I didn't give an exact distance, so I'm letting this one slide... But Nei could still use some immediate-action movement of her own to simply get at a safe distance from the Hugo horde.

Then of course, Nei's packing True Sight like a good high-level girl that once had an illusionist boyfriend.

Because of course she is, why not completely inutilize the illusionist - OHWAITI'MAFUCKINGSHADOWCRAFTMAGE.
It could be much worst, like you could be a grappler and run into somebody with Freedom of Movement.

Also FINE, I use TELEPORT instead of DIMENSION DOOR, WHICH HAS NO SUCH MOBILITY CLAUSE OR RANGE ISSUE.

See what I mean? Why bother detailing my actions if you're just going to shoot them down!
Because this was another case of you outright ignoring the spell rules. Dimensional Door shuts your character down until the next turn. But teleport indeed has no such clause, so that's one problem solved.

Also, the configuration thing is only for the disc launcher. Hugo's just drawing discs the old-fashioned way out of a handy haversack or whatever. He DOES have Quick Draw, remember? He could just as easily draw-drop as free actions and smash them on the ground rather than in his hands.
Hugo's standing on beach sand and isn't 10 feet tall, the disks aren't gonna break that easily. And even if they did, if Hugo wants to teleport he needs to smash said disk on himself.

EDIT: Either way the Hugo Army is meant to prevent AoOs from someone who isn't her. Even if she does AoO him, he's got Alert and Invincibility up. And she's in a mecha to boot - can a mecha-scale weapon hit a medium-size creature without some splash? Unless the answer is yes, she's bound to hit some of the fake Hugos too.
Yes they can, just like a normal colossal creature can target a medium one. Although she'll probably still just pull back from the clingy boyfriend than risk making mincemeat of the real Hugo.

Also to make something clear, one illusion of multiple Hugos is still just one illusion. One disbelief will make them all begone and will only cause one backlash.

...I just noticed something in the True Seeing description. Does the "see through illusions" part equate to automatically passing a disbelief Will save?
I swear illusions are the most headaching magic.

I'm gonna rule that no since if the authors meant to say it counts as disbelieving they would've said so instead of using different wording.

*shrugs* Okay.

I'ma just keep rolling with the hits like I do, whatevs~ Is cool.

Kuro, he wouldn't be "shutting you down" so much if you were actually doing things you know you can do instead of just tossing assumptions around. For the most part, his denying of your actions so far seem to be due to you not being clear about rules, both SRW ones and in the case of Dimension Door, regular core rules.

I know I get lost on this stuff to sometimes. Not too long ago I was pming Os about certain maneuver and spirit interactions for my previous turn cause I just didn't know if I could actually do what I wanted to do despite that it all looked viably legal. Turned out it wasn't -_-'

Thank you for the understanding. It makes my job easier if the players actually make their actions clear, and using a spell that stops you from taking actions then declaring more actions isn't very clear.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 10:21:21 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #734 on: August 27, 2018, 01:31:01 PM »
Yeah, I kinda ran into everybody having Freedom of Movement when I try to BFC a while ago.

Can anybody honestly tell me they remembered that clause on DD before you pointed out? I don't re-read every spell every time I use them, I just try to remember their levels and what they're for. Regardless, you knew I had access to teleport discs as well and that spell doesn't have the dead in their tracks clause. Moot point, anyway.

That's actually easy to solve. He drops them all on top of his foot and casts Burning Hands at CL1, aiming at his foot, with the Teleport disc being the first one he dropped (that way it happens last as it's theoretically the last one to burn). Alternatively, the last disk he draws is Telekinesis, and then he uses the action that throws them all onto himself (Retributive Image isn't a target spell anyway, and even if it was he can just forfeit the disbelief Will save). The only downside to the first option is an average of 2.5 damage to himself.

I wasn't expecting much different, I was just unclear on how Mecha weapons work in that regard. I just find it weird that a bullet the size of a car can somehow tear through ONE creature and leave another immediately behind it completely unscathed is all. Also, I didn't expect much different on the illusion side. Next time I'll just use multiple superimposed illusions of multiple Hugos so that hitting ONE of the fakes triggers multiple Retributive Images.  :P Just for the record though, disbelief doesn't actually dispel illusions, it only makes it clear to the one who succeeded on the save that the illusion isn't real. That's why I asked if True Seeing counted as an automatic disbelief. I'm assuming Nei has some Spellcraft and identified the spell in question on a hidden roll though, because True Seeing does NOT tell you automatically what spell is what.

In fact, while we are on the subject of True Seeing:

Quote
You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Therefore, I'm going to have to assume that the Neikapool also has True Seeing, because if only Nei has it, she can't use it through its cameras (she's inside of a cockpit), and even then, she can only make out any illusions inside her cockpit. I at least don't remember any mecha effect in the SRWD20 granting True Seeing, though I could be wrong, there's a lot of it.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #735 on: August 27, 2018, 05:30:45 PM »
You're making up half that stuff because the actual book text is pretty unclear. I know it because I already had players want to use that exotic weapon and ask me to rule what exactly happens.
You, the guy who doesn't even know how his Defend Spirit works, claims that I, the rule expert, made rules up and you base the solely off the experience that you have no idea how the weapon works. That's just as illogical as you think it's informed. >.>

The AoO is generated off the melee touch attack, which the weapon skips, and the weapon it's self says you automatically hit and deal it's base damage each round. When I get home I can cover the RC/PHB/RotG about moving into another's square (which you'll note the staff never says you have to do to deal said dmg) if I need to but I really don't feel like I need to.

I had to remind people about Grapple rules last year and many parodies joking about D&D's overly complicated Grapple rules exist for a reason. Why not avoid invoking those rules with every attack? Heck, a lot of turn based strategy games have a cannot move condition, like doesn't the SRW game in the app store prevent you from moving to certain squares after getting hit with something in Japanese? FFT/FFTA called it "Immobilize" I think. Just stick to that with an opposed check.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 10:14:35 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #736 on: August 27, 2018, 06:01:09 PM »
Quote
Therefore, I'm going to have to assume that the Neikapool also has True Seeing, because if only Nei has it, she can't use it through its cameras (she's inside of a cockpit), and even then, she can only make out any illusions inside her cockpit. I at least don't remember any mecha effect in the SRWD20 granting True Seeing, though I could be wrong, there's a lot of it.

Don't mecha get some of the effects from the pilot? Depends how the true seeing is acquired.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #737 on: August 27, 2018, 08:11:12 PM »
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Therefore, I'm going to have to assume that the Neikapool also has True Seeing, because if only Nei has it, she can't use it through its cameras (she's inside of a cockpit), and even then, she can only make out any illusions inside her cockpit. I at least don't remember any mecha effect in the SRWD20 granting True Seeing, though I could be wrong, there's a lot of it.

Don't mecha get some of the effects from the pilot? Depends how the true seeing is acquired.
I seem to recall that's true if the effects were cast on the mecha itself or through the mecha itself (via Arcane amplifier or somesuch). Like I said, I think there's a mecha part that grants True Seeing, but I'm not sure.

EDIT: Ah, here we go.

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The mecha uses the pilot's base saves, BAB, skill bonuses, feats, and self-buff class abilities for fighting (except Regeneration but including Fast Healing), plus the pilot's Str and Dex scores (it takes a strong pilot to handle a mecha under stress, and it takes good reflexes to make it react in time).

So I'm guessing True Seeing doesn't count?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 08:23:43 PM by Kuroimaken »
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Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #738 on: August 27, 2018, 08:18:08 PM »
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And again, constrict damage happens when the grapple roll is sucessful. Which means right after the weapon hits, so you end up dealing heavy weapon damage then constrict damage right away. And then it's not that hard to roll a bunch more grapples every round to multiply that heavy damage. It's a lot more damage.

Oh, I missed this.

You basically just said that grapples/constricts work exactly the same as what you decided to do already with entirely unimpeded full attacks on grappled creatures. So no matter which you go with nothing would change.



Except you can't do more than one grapple check a round to damage a grappled opponent but I'm over this topic *shrugs*

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #739 on: August 28, 2018, 11:26:07 AM »
You're making up half that stuff because the actual book text is pretty unclear. I know it because I already had players want to use that exotic weapon and ask me to rule what exactly happens.
You, the guy who doesn't even know how his Defend Spirit works
There's no Defend Spirit in my homebrew. Thank you for confirming yet again you're just making stuff up out of thin air.

Yeah, I kinda ran into everybody having Freedom of Movement when I try to BFC a while ago.

Can anybody honestly tell me they remembered that clause on DD before you pointed out?

I don't re-read every spell every time I use them, I just try to remember their levels and what they're for. Regardless, you knew I had access to teleport discs as well and that spell doesn't have the dead in their tracks clause. Moot point, anyway.

The point is that when you're making complex multi-step plans you should indeed double-check each step just in case.

That's actually easy to solve. He drops them all on top of his foot and casts Burning Hands at CL1, aiming at his foot, with the Teleport disc being the first one he dropped (that way it happens last as it's theoretically the last one to burn). Alternatively, the last disk he draws is Telekinesis, and then he uses the action that throws them all onto himself (Retributive Image isn't a target spell anyway, and even if it was he can just forfeit the disbelief Will save). The only downside to the first option is an average of 2.5 damage to himself.
You have quantum discs, but you don't have quantum spell slots. You had said earlier in the campaign they're all filled with silent images. I certainly don't recall anything about preparing burning hands.

Telekinesis doesn't actually deal damage to the thrown objects like normal falling rules.

I wasn't expecting much different, I was just unclear on how Mecha weapons work in that regard. I just find it weird that a bullet the size of a car can somehow tear through ONE creature and leave another immediately behind it completely unscathed is all.
It's no weirder that you can shoot arrows at the middle of a crowd of thousands of people packed together and don't hit anyone. Or a colossal titan could fling a colossal javelin at said crowd and fail to hurt anybody.

Also, I didn't expect much different on the illusion side. Next time I'll just use multiple superimposed illusions of multiple Hugos so that hitting ONE of the fakes triggers multiple Retributive Images.  :P Just for the record though, disbelief doesn't actually dispel illusions, it only makes it clear to the one who succeeded on the save that the illusion isn't real. That's why I asked if True Seeing counted as an automatic disbelief. I'm assuming Nei has some Spellcraft and identified the spell in question on a hidden roll though, because True Seeing does NOT tell you automatically what spell is what.

In fact, while we are on the subject of True Seeing:

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You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Therefore, I'm going to have to assume that the Neikapool also has True Seeing, because if only Nei has it, she can't use it through its cameras (she's inside of a cockpit), and even then, she can only make out any illusions inside her cockpit. I at least don't remember any mecha effect in the SRWD20 granting True Seeing, though I could be wrong, there's a lot of it.

As pointed in the general discussion, there's at least an Acessory and a Trait that allow the mecha to get True Seeing, I'll let you guess which one Nei has.

But bigger point is, we can keep arguing for weeks about the minutae of D&D rules or we can just roll with the agreement we had made for your mecha for a "fair" use of Hugo's quantum disc arsenal.

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And again, constrict damage happens when the grapple roll is sucessful. Which means right after the weapon hits, so you end up dealing heavy weapon damage then constrict damage right away. And then it's not that hard to roll a bunch more grapples every round to multiply that heavy damage. It's a lot more damage.

Oh, I missed this.

You basically just said that grapples/constricts work exactly the same as what you decided to do already with entirely unimpeded full attacks on grappled creatures. So no matter which you go with nothing would change.



Except you can't do more than one grapple check a round to damage a grappled opponent but I'm over this topic *shrugs*

The "damage your opponent" is one of many option, and actually deals nonlethal damage by default. But stuff like attacking with a light weapon is another option, and you can make as many grapples as you can make attacks, each grapple roll triggering Constrict.

But you're wise to just let go, in particular since you were smart enough to pack Freedom of Movement so you don't need to worry. :P