General Discussion and Sugestions

[Raineh Daze]

I don''t understand the wording for how that Special works at all.......

I've been drinking, which doesn't help, but broadly:

Vampire isn't compatible with racial templates, other races, or being undead. I should probably add construct, but I'm not sure if I should rule out cyborg Touhou vampires...

... I more or less wrote it because neither Remi nor Flan are terribly dead. They're very strong and fast, but their weaknesses are a bit odd, and other than that it's more of a matter of collecting specific abilities. Also, having to take a specific class that burns levels and makes you undead to use a school properly bothers me.

Probably doesn't need the free feat, though.

[ketaro]

Oh so that is a template you wrote to put onto a PHB race that can not stack with other templates that change creature Type?

Templates that add Sub-types tho are still fine with it, yeah?

[Raineh Daze]

Oh so that is a template you wrote to put onto a PHB race that can not stack with other templates that change creature Type?

Templates that add Sub-types tho are still fine with it, yeah?

Um... no? It's a race. That is, the intent is that you're not a human, or a halfling: you're a vampire. Regardless of the supposed base, this is your racial identity now, and whatever you were before is overriden by your vampiric condition.

Trying again!


Vampire

A strange creature, new to Gensokyo, that requires blood to survive--yet can channel this blood into boosting its own capabilities, and is aptly suited to combat thriving upon said blood.

(click to show/hide)

Size: As the race selected in 'Vampiric Base'.

Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains a blood charge that is saved for later use. A vampire can save a number of Blood Charges equal to his HD multiplied by his Charisma bonus .

If a Vampire drains blood from a creature with 3 or more points of Intelligence, it gains 2 Blood Charges on a successful attack instead.
If a Vampire drains blood from a member of it's base race, it gains 4 blood charges on a successful attack instead.

The Vampire can only obtain a Blood Charge from living beings. Drinking blood from dead creatures or drinking preserved blood tastes foul to the Vampire and provides no Blood Charges.

The Vampire can drain blood from summoned creatures, but the charges obtained this way disappear when the summoned monster disappears.

Each day, the Vampire loses a number of Blood Charges equal to his HD after restomg. If the vampire doesn't have enough blood charges to satisfy it's needs by morning, he takes a penalty to all d20 rolls equal to the number of missing blood charges, up to a penalty equal to his own HD. The penalty lasts until the Vampire gets a number of Blood Charges equal to his HD or more and spends the missing charges, with at least an hour spent resting.

Vampiric Power: A vampire can spend blood charges to boost his strength modifier or dexterity modifier, on a one-to-one basis with a limit equal to his HD, for a single roll. He can also boost his base speed by 10' for every blood charge spent, with a limit on charges equal to his HD.

Vampires are created, not made, and do not age no matter how much time passes, always looking the same. A new vampire can be created by spending blood charges equal to a victim's HD (whilst feeding upon them), if the victim's CON drops to 0 or below, with a fortitude saving throw equal to 10+1/2 the vampire's HD, and a will saving throw of the same. If the victim fails both throws, they become a vampire with their original constitution score, and loses all other racial traits. Additionally, their previous race counts as their chosen race for 'Vampiric Base'.

If their original race would not qualify, they cannot become a vampire and simply die.

Vampiric Weaknesses: A vampire takes 1d6 damage from direct sunlight, running water (such as rain), roasted soybeans, or sardine heads per round of exposure. If exposed to sunlight, they must make a Will Save with a DC equal to 1/2 HD + 10 + (10 - Wisdom Modifier) or retreat to a dark area to sleep until nightfall.

Parasol Ablatement: A vampire gains the parasol-related benefits of the Light Eater feat for free, with penalties halved. Should a vampire reach 20HD, penalties are negated altogether whilst under a parasol.

Vampiric Base: Select a 1HD, humanoid race (such as Human, or Elf). Should the Vampire gain a template, or their type change from 'humanoid', they lose all benefits of being a vampire, and count instead as selected race (including bonuses) until all templates are removed and the type changes reverted.

[ketaro]

Ah okay. The new version makes sense now.

If Vampire then is your race, what is your Type?
Because otherwise it looks like your Type is still Humanoid despite being a Vampire. Which is fine and all, but it should mention what happens to your Type as a Vampire. (Plus for when something like "Eating, Breathing, Sleeping, ect" stuff comes up)

Duh, nevermind. Vampire Base says you're Humanoid even as a Vampire.
Although I wasn't looking at trying to see this thing as Undead type (cause thats OP ), do you still need to Eat (not blood) and Breath and Sleep?

[Raineh Daze]

Ah okay. The new version makes sense now.

If Vampire then is your race, what is your Type?
Because otherwise it looks like your Type is still Humanoid despite being a Vampire. Which is fine and all, but it should mention what happens to your Type as a Vampire. (Plus for when something like "Eating, Breathing, Sleeping, ect" stuff comes up)

Duh, nevermind. Vampire Base says you're Humanoid even as a Vampire.
Although I wasn't looking at trying to see this thing as Undead type (cause thats OP ), do you still need to Eat (not blood) and Breath and Sleep?

If anything, blame Os for not stating that Lunarians and White Wolf Tengu are humanoid.

The gist is that you need to eat, drink, and sleep; but you're by nature nocturnal, and have an additional dietary requirement of 'blood'.

[ketaro]

Looks pretty good then.

[Raineh Daze]

And finally, revised sober, but still horribly clunky. Oh well.

Vampire

A strange creature, new to Gensokyo, that requires blood to survive--yet can channel this blood into boosting its own capabilities, and is aptly suited to combat thriving upon said blood.

(click to show/hide)

Size: As the race selected in 'Vampiric Base'.

Vampiric Base: Select a 1HD, humanoid race (such as Human, or Elf) with no level adjustment. Should the Vampire gain a template, or their type change from 'humanoid', they lose all benefits of being a vampire, and count instead as selected race (including bonuses) until all templates are removed and the type changes reverted.[/

Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains a blood charge that is saved for later use. A vampire can save a number of Blood Charges equal to his HD multiplied by his Charisma bonus .

If a Vampire drains blood from a creature with 3 or more points of Intelligence, it gains 2 Blood Charges on a successful attack instead.
If a Vampire drains blood from a member of it's base race, it gains 4 blood charges on a successful attack instead.

The Vampire can only obtain a Blood Charge from living beings. Drinking blood from dead creatures or drinking preserved blood tastes foul to the Vampire and provides no Blood Charges.

The Vampire can drain blood from summoned creatures, but the charges obtained this way disappear when the summoned monster disappears.

Each day, the Vampire loses a number of Blood Charges equal to his HD after resting. If the vampire doesn't have enough blood charges to satisfy it's needs by morning, he takes a penalty to all d20 rolls equal to the number of missing blood charges, up to a penalty equal to his own HD. The penalty lasts until the Vampire gets a number of Blood Charges equal to his HD or more and spends the missing charges, with at least an hour spent resting.

Vampiric Power: A vampire can spend blood charges to boost his strength modifier or dexterity score, on a one-to-one basis with a limit equal to his HD, for a single round. He can also boost his base speed by 10' for every blood charge spent, with a limit on charges equal to his HD. Finally, a vampire of 5HD or more can spend a blood charge to gain Fast Healing 1 for a minute, and a vampire of 10HD or more can spend blood charges equal to twice their HD to regenerate missing body parts over the course of an hour (cut down to a minute at 20HD). All abilities can be used as a free action, or an immediate action if it isn't your turn.

Vampires are created, not made, and do not age no matter how much time passes, always looking the same. A new vampire can be created by spending blood charges equal to a victim's HD (whilst feeding upon them), if the victim's CON drops to 0 or below, with a fortitude saving throw equal to 10+1/2 the vampire's HD, and a will saving throw of the same. If the victim fails both throws, they become a vampire with their original constitution score, and loses all other racial traits. Additionally, their previous race counts as their chosen race for 'Vampiric Base'.

If their original race would not qualify, they cannot become a vampire and simply die.

Vampiric Weaknesses: A vampire takes 1d6 damage from direct sunlight, running water (such as rain), roasted soybeans, or sardine heads per round of exposure. If exposed to sunlight, they must make a Will Save with a DC equal to 10+1/2HD+Rounds of Exposure (cumulative across the day, resetting at nightfall) or retreat to a dark area to sleep until nightfall.

Parasol Ablatement: A vampire gains the parasol-related benefits of the Light Eater feat for free. At 10HD, the penalties are halved, and at 20HD removed altogether.

Vampiric Base: Select a 1HD, humanoid race (such as Human, or Elf). Should the Vampire gain a template, or their type change from 'humanoid', they lose all benefits of being a vampire, and count instead as selected race (including bonuses) until all templates are removed and the type changes reverted.

[oslecamo]

Also, having to take a specific class that burns levels and makes you undead to use a school properly bothers me.

Septette for the Dead was developed taking in account you would have to burn levels to fully unlock the blood charges potential. And I don't feel like remaking it from scratch.

Besides, you're now trying to argue that Remilia cannot turn into a bat neither has a coffin nor any servants. I clearly missed the part of EoSD where stages 3-6 were completely empty until reaching this twilight wannabe.  Also she now drinks holy water for breakfast, but she was forever vanquished from this world when she crossed a fisherman with a bunch of sardines. Or perhaps it was a beans seller.

Needs more glittering under the sun clearly.

[Raineh Daze]

Turning into a bat, yes. Coffin? No. I have seen nothing to suggest that, if she has one, it's for any reason other than 'oh, hey, stylish'. Also seen nothing to suggest vampires are undead in Touhou, more to the point. And 'Servants' don't require 'Vampire' when you own a mansion. And let's see... Patchouli's a friend, Meiling is a mystery, and Sakuya isn't mind controlled. >_>

It goes without saying that she is weak against sunlight, can't cross flowing water, hates garlic, and despises sardine heads. Crosses have no effect on her. It puzzles her to hear that her kind are supposed to be weak against such a thing.

Yup, sardine heads. Not sure where Patchouli decided to have a setsubun festival (one of the manga? Some article somewhere? So many places to look...), but roasted soybeans too.

Besides, it's not like this could be less accurate than the base vampire class. Sunlight isn't instant death, there's no indication either of them are undead since vampires are a type of youkai, coffins are irrelevant, they can break and enter (Eientei), Remilia and Flandre have a religious imagery obsession, both are easily hurt (so no DR) but heal it well enough, and there's no mention of mind control.

So yes, it misses turning into a bat; but it doesn't include a lot of things that Touhou vampires don't.

As for the balance comment: one level, undead immunities, much much better buffing capabilities, or you can take two levels and, if you're well fed, get all of the same, monster summoning, dominate, army creation, negative levels, and the ability to count as your actual level for maneuver purposes. That is: either the balance comment is invalid, or the vampire class needs editing as it gives you far more bonuses and you get to keep full maneuver access.

EDIT: Oh, wait, PMiSS has the soybean comment. And more sardine heads. It also mentions summoning legions of devils, but you've gotten that part in the martial school anyway.

[oslecamo]

Turning into a bat, yes. Coffin? No. I have seen nothing to suggest that, if she has one, it's for any reason other than 'oh, hey, stylish'.

Silly Raineh, where do you think Remilia rests during the day?

Also seen nothing to suggest vampires are undead in Touhou, more to the point. And 'Servants' don't require 'Vampire' when you own a mansion. And let's see... Patchouli's a friend, Meiling is a mystery, and Sakuya isn't mind controlled. >_>

She sleeps in a coffin. Meaning she doesn't need to breathe. And she doesn't age nor gets sick, and clearly has darkvision.

Also, she has an army of fairies doing chores for her. Fairies don't do maid work out of their own will. And Remilia can't threaten them with death, so mind control.

It goes without saying that she is weak against sunlight, can't cross flowing water, hates garlic, and despises sardine heads. Crosses have no effect on her. It puzzles her to hear that her kind are supposed to be weak against such a thing.

Yup, sardine heads. Not sure where Patchouli decided to have a setsubun festival (one of the manga? Some article somewhere? So many places to look...), but roasted soybeans too.

Besides, it's not like this could be less accurate than the base vampire class. Sunlight isn't instant death, there's no indication either of them are undead since vampires are a type of youkai, coffins are irrelevant, they can break and enter (Eientei), Remilia and Flandre have a religious imagery obsession, both are easily hurt (so no DR) but heal it well enough, and there's no mention of mind control.

Remilia still takes extra damage from light-based attacks that deal extra damage against undead. Your twilight wannabe means Silent Sinner in Blue ended with Remilia taking over the moon because the lunarian sister's sun channeling meant a measly extra 1d6 of damage at best.

Another bit of trivia, on the DR explanation of the DMG it says that it can be described as quick healing of wounds and uses the vampire as example. Even tough vampires have natural fast healing, but it's still a valid way of describing it.

Meanwhile sunlight isn't instant death for regular vampires either. They're left staggered for the first round, but can still try to escape.

But of course Remilia's actually a vampire lord, so she can actually tank some sunlight (and other vampire weaknsses). It still supresses her supernatural stance that grants her wings tough.

So yes, it misses turning into a bat; but it doesn't include a lot of things that Touhou vampires don't.

Au contraire, you cannot prove that Remilia cannot do a specific thing. She may've just not used it yet, like she has new tricks up her sleeve in every new game she shows up. But I can prove that Remilia can do things your twilight wannabe cannot.

As for the balance comment: one level, undead immunities, much much better buffing capabilities, or you can take two levels and, if you're well fed, get all of the same, monster summoning, dominate, army creation, negative levels, and the ability to count as your actual level for maneuver purposes. That is: either the balance comment is invalid, or the vampire class needs editing as it gives you far more bonuses and you get to keep full maneuver access.

Eerr, where you're getting the "count as your actual level for maneuver purposes" on the vampire side? As for the rest, nothing you couldn't pick with a couple well chosen levels of something else, in particular when you're getting half a level for free.

EDIT: Oh, wait, PMiSS has the soybean comment. And more sardine heads. It also mentions summoning legions of devils, but you've gotten that part in the martial school anyway.

Her closest servants say beans just annoy her.

[Raineh Daze]

Turning into a bat, yes. Coffin? No. I have seen nothing to suggest that, if she has one, it's for any reason other than 'oh, hey, stylish'.

Silly Raineh, where do you think Remilia rests during the day?

Huh, never read the fairy manga. So she does.

Also seen nothing to suggest vampires are undead in Touhou, more to the point. And 'Servants' don't require 'Vampire' when you own a mansion. And let's see... Patchouli's a friend, Meiling is a mystery, and Sakuya isn't mind controlled. >_>

She sleeps in a coffin. Meaning she doesn't need to breathe. And she doesn't age nor gets sick, and clearly has darkvision.

Also, she has an army of fairies doing chores for her. Fairies don't do maid work out of their own will. And Remilia can't threaten them with death, so mind control.

1) You're assuming that the coffin is, in fact, airtight, and required.* When she adopts Dracula-related imagery because 'it's vampiric'.
2)Yeah, lack of ageing totally means undead, it's not like every single youkai is ageless by definition. Like Utsuho, Orin, Nue, youkai magicians, Yukari, Ran...

Not getting ill makes you undead? Glad to know I have d12 HD; or that we know enough about Remilia's life to be certain on this.

Maid work is voluntary. Specifically, this section:

The Scarlet Devil Mansion's policy regarding maids is quantity over quality, and they are somehow able to accomodate all of the fairy maids in their employ.
She is the only human maid among them, and as the head maid she gives orders to the fairy maids.
The fairy maids are mostly useless.
They are sufficiently occupied in cleaning their own uniforms and making their own food (*3).
About the only thing worth saying about these maids is that they basically have no pay or vacation, but they receive food and tea, and can do whatever else they please.
They are free to leave and regain their posts, as well.
The fairy maids' lives are comparatively comfortable, and if they can come to enjoy their masters' occasional impossible requests, almost none choose to run away.
In contrast, the chief maid's job is severe.
As her duties include cleaning the labyrinthine interior of the mansion, taking care of its selfish master, managing the useless maids, going out to buy supplies in the human village and making pointlessly gorgeous meals, she has no time to rest.
It would be impossible to do all this work alone without being able to stop time.

So no, mind control is ruled out.

It goes without saying that she is weak against sunlight, can't cross flowing water, hates garlic, and despises sardine heads. Crosses have no effect on her. It puzzles her to hear that her kind are supposed to be weak against such a thing.

Yup, sardine heads. Not sure where Patchouli decided to have a setsubun festival (one of the manga? Some article somewhere? So many places to look...), but roasted soybeans too.

Besides, it's not like this could be less accurate than the base vampire class. Sunlight isn't instant death, there's no indication either of them are undead since vampires are a type of youkai, coffins are irrelevant, they can break and enter (Eientei), Remilia and Flandre have a religious imagery obsession, both are easily hurt (so no DR) but heal it well enough, and there's no mention of mind control.

Remilia still takes extra damage from light-based attacks that deal extra damage against undead. Your twilight wannabe means Silent Sinner in Blue ended with Remilia taking over the moon because the lunarian sister's sun channeling meant a measly extra 1d6 of damage at best.

Another bit of trivia, on the DR explanation of the DMG it says that it can be described as quick healing of wounds and uses the vampire as example. Even tough vampires have natural fast healing, but it's still a valid way of describing it.

Meanwhile sunlight isn't instant death for regular vampires either. They're left staggered for the first round, but can still try to escape.

But of course Remilia's actually a vampire lord, so she can actually tank some sunlight (and other vampire weaknsses). It still supresses her supernatural stance that grants her wings tough.

Err... you're now reading your own homebrew into what is quite literally 'will burn away in sunlight'. That is certain. She doesn't burn away to nothing within 10 seconds (which is close enough to nothing), but she outright takes damage from it rather than penalties. Weaknesses do damage, but it's not terribly relevant if you heal it.

Having that reading of DR and Fast Healing in one place is, honestly, stupid. You're trying to represent one ability two ways, which ends up causing a mess. So I take 5 less damage from everything, yet I heal damage every round, both because I heal quickly? Why is one healing so much faster than the other? Why does certain damage bypass one, but get healed by the other? Fuck the DMG's fluff guidelines, they don't make sense. :/

Relatedly: I don't think the wings are supernaturally granted. This is Gensokyo, people can fly without wings anyway. It says as much in Flandre's section, where she just... makes no sense. <_<

So yes, it misses turning into a bat; but it doesn't include a lot of things that Touhou vampires don't.

Au contraire, you cannot prove that Remilia cannot do a specific thing. She may've just not used it yet, like she has new tricks up her sleeve in every new game she shows up. But I can prove that Remilia can do things your twilight wannabe cannot.

... er, 'attacks with bats in IN' is the only ability gain I can think of that shows up in a game. Otherwise you have 'uses stuff in different ways'.

As for the balance comment: one level, undead immunities, much much better buffing capabilities, or you can take two levels and, if you're well fed, get all of the same, monster summoning, dominate, army creation, negative levels, and the ability to count as your actual level for maneuver purposes. That is: either the balance comment is invalid, or the vampire class needs editing as it gives you far more bonuses and you get to keep full maneuver access.

Eerr, where you're getting the "count as your actual level for maneuver purposes" on the vampire side? As for the rest, nothing you couldn't pick with a couple well chosen levels of something else, in particular when you're getting half a level for free.

Oh, wait, misread Manifester. Good to see that you rank 9th level spells as balanced against getting maneuvers one level late, though.

EDIT: Oh, wait, PMiSS has the soybean comment. And more sardine heads. It also mentions summoning legions of devils, but you've gotten that part in the martial school anyway.

Her closest servants say beans just annoy her.

[/quote]

First: fairies? Closest servants? What logic is that? Has Sakuya spontaneously disappeared? <.<

... anyway, as the manual says, weak to them. It's obvious why someone that gets hurt by roasted soybeans would be annoyed if you throw them around. Not like she can't heal from anything almost immediately.


Good to see that you're trying to support your argument with 'twilight' jabs. I still want evidence that Touhou vampires are undead--and 'sleeps in a coffin' is not evidence, nor is ageing.

Of the newer youkai that have emerged only within the last few centuries, vampires are among the strongest of them, strong enough to take part in the power-balance of Gensokyo (*1) by now.

Vampires are youkai.

*Youkai have longer lifespans than humans.
*Youkai have stronger bodies than humans, so even if they're split into five parts, they heal right away.

Yup, fits vampires.

*Relatedly: everyone can apparently breathe in space anyway. Imperishable Night, Stage 6.

[samnemath]

A player wants to play one of these classes in our game, and I was wondering how they balance compared to official classes?

I am speaking for the plain historian in particular, but I would be interested to know your opinion on all these classes and material.

Admitedly I suck in detecting balance in homebrew material, but certain things, like the Scolar's casting as a 2/3 Cleric in addition to his abilities, and some of the cheap armors that give  AC depending to your ranks in a skill, make me a little sceptical in allowing this material in our game.

To have a better idea of our group, it is a party of 7, with 4 low optimization players, 1 medium, and 2 high. We also regularly use published adventures, mainly because I don't have time to make my own. And this is the real issue. If I had time to make my own encounters or severly adapt the ones in the adventure, I woundn't worry.

This question Oslecamo applies to all your homebrew material. In fact I am curious about your take on the power level the homebrewers in Minmax aim in general. Hell if Strativarius, Garyll or Sirpercival (or anyone I am forgeting) happen to see this question, I wouldn't mind hearing their opinion also.

[Raineh Daze]

Scholar doesn't get Cleric casting. That would be Shrine Maiden.

Balance wise... aside from those monster classes that are outright full casters, they're powerful due to being pretty hard to screw up, but if there are any really broken combinations of stuff, you can post about them and they'll generally be removed.

[samnemath]

Ah, yes, sorry. Shrine maiden is what I meant.

I was mostly asking on how balanced they are with other martial adepts. Of course this may change depending on the level of optimization, but as an average, how do they compare?

[Raineh Daze]

I don't actually know what armour ties AC to skill ranks, but Shrine Maiden cleric casting is delayed, and by not taking the 'I just want to throw things at you' ACF, your available maneuvers are also in shorter supply. It's not a big deal; just a cleric would be worse.

[oslecamo]

Ah, yes, sorry. Shrine maiden is what I meant.

I was mostly asking on how balanced they are with other martial adepts. Of course this may change depending on the level of optimization, but as an average, how do they compare?

Pretty well I would say. Warblade and crusader are both quite strong classes that can chew right trough most prepared adventures. The classes here will probaly have somewhat more versatility, but Crusader and Warblades have both more HP, full Bab, and can recover their maneuvers on the fly while barely slowing down their attacks. They also get more martial schools to pick from, and their secondary abilities aren't anything to sneeze at either (cough delayed damage pool cough).

Delayed cleric casting on the Shrine Maiden allows for some nice tricks, but by itself won't really do that much (and may actually stay behind a crusader/cleric ruby knight vindicator).

The Korindou armor that grants AC based on skill ranks only really pulls ahead at high levels (and seriously, high level AC shouldn't be so damn expensive outside of spells), so earlier on it isn't really better than medium armor for the warblade, or heavy armor for the crusader.

This question Oslecamo applies to all your homebrew material. In fact I am curious about your take on the power level the homebrewers in Minmax aim in general. Hell if Strativarius, Garyll or Sirpercival (or anyone I am forgeting) happen to see this question, I wouldn't mind hearing their opinion also.

Can't really speak for the others, but I aim at a higher power level than average D&D (notice that ToB is also higher power than average). I however take special care in preventing infinite loops and OP combos. I love immunity-piercing abilities, because players should never be told "your special attack auto-fails and the enemy didn't even had to spend an action, sucks to be you", something for which I've been both criticized and praised.

[Anomander]

Woo~ Another Touhou Fighting Game!
Kasen's in it, the art takes another step up and Marisa's sending people to some toilet of doom with her ult. Joy.

[Raineh Daze]

My biggest question is 'why does Kasen have an eagle'.

[Anomander]

It is one of her most (or the most) recurring animal disciple in the books. Maybe it'll do stuff in the full version.

[oslecamo]

Oh, I gosto muito Marisa again embracing her dark side.

Also that's not an eagle following Kasen. It's a foul demonic familar that's been known to kidnap shrine maidens. An actual eagle would be much smaller for starters.

Gotta love the game premise. "Yoh gawd we heard you like myths becoming reality so we put myths becoming reality in your myths becoming reality series so you can mythology while you become real". This is, isn't the whole basic premise of Touhou that urban legends are true after all and they're all hiding somewhere in Gensokyo?