Author Topic: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off  (Read 2703 times)

Offline Nanshork

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Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« on: October 05, 2020, 09:38:28 PM »
It's called Corefinder and it's to Pathfinder what Pathfinder is to 3.5.  Legendary Games is publishing it.

GitP thread about it.

Paizo forums thread about it. (Contains a link to the Legendary Games Discord server in the first post)

I expect this community to never move onto it because I'm the only one who wants to learn all the systems but conceptually I'm interested to see how this goes.

Edit: I'm reading through the threads and will post an overview of actual crunch information.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2020, 10:15:52 PM »
GitP Thread Information:

 - Legendary Games is a much larger third party publisher than I was aware of.
 - "Corefinder" will have genre neutral core rules with settings books (like Savage Worlds or GURPS)
 - Monsters and Characters will be probably be built differently, everything in the universe doesn't share the same basic advancement mechanism. (There's some backlash against this.)
 - The whole concept of "everything is a playable concept" is probably going out the window.
 - Sorcerer and Wizard might end up being variants of the same class (or sorcerer might just be nixed).
 - "Math-finder" is going to be lessened.
 - Turning some feats into skill uses and removing feat taxes is on the radar.
 - There's a Discord where things are being actively discussed.
 - Attack options that aren't full attacking will be explored.
 - Mounted Combat is getting rule improvements.
 - Possible vancian casting adjustments (but skill slots still will exist).  Maybe something like 5E casting where preparing spells and casting spells are separate things from a spell level perspective.
 - Moving away from required magic items as part of character progression for math purposes, some sort of automatic bonus progression is being pondered.
 - Active playtesting is going to happen because Legendary Games does that.
 - Removal of actively deliberate trap options.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2020, 10:54:57 PM »
Paizo Thread Information that wasn't previously mentioned:

 - Legendary Games is also planning on making an RPG system that isn't PF1 compatible.  All sacred cows are on the chopping block and might be ripped out of the system.
 - All classes will be able to contribute to both combat and non-combat encounters.
 - Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Vital Strike will be core abilities and not feats.
 - Best guess, will be released sometime next year.
 - They are reading and considering all input (although they might not consider it for longer than a second)

Offline Nanashi

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Re: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2020, 03:59:15 AM »
For Power Attack being a standard option, I liked Mutants and Mastermind's approach of making Power Attack and its cousins open to all, but having an advantage (feat) that let you shift further. Of course, Power Attack and Accurate Attack were top tier feats due to how M&M capped player power level.

As for killing the WBL: I still find Saga Edition's use of wealth the best in the d20 system. There are no superior items for the average soldier: Double starting wealth would give virtually all characters what they needed to function, regardless of level. Instead, wealth lets you buy gadgets that increase your versatility. This allowed turning giving loads of extra wealth into a powerful but reasonable option for a class feature choice.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 04:03:40 AM by Nanashi »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2020, 10:58:12 AM »
They're not killing WBL, they're just making some bonuses inherent to the character. You still buy magic items, just not cloaks of resistance.

Something like this but less crappy is what was mentioned in the threads.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression


Offline Power

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Re: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2020, 08:01:27 PM »
Sounds like steps in the right direction overall.

Offline Keldar

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Re: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2020, 11:55:52 AM »
I'm keeping an eye on it.  Having at least one person on staff that wrote handbooks for Pathfinder says something about their mentality going in.  Should be interesting to see what they come up with at the least.   And that bullet point list ticks quite a few house rules boxes off for me.

Their classes over on d20PFSRD show they really prefer the Arcanist casting style.

Offline Craiconn

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Re: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2020, 08:49:51 AM »
I've also been following Corefinder closely.  Odds are high that I will be enthusiastically navigating towards this PF1E spinoff as well.

To note, the only other PF1E 3PP company that was taking a credible stab at the 3.5 > PF1E > XXXX continuity chain was Purple Duck Games.  Although I believe their version of PF.PDG is either temporarily stalled or dead in the water.  Likely due to meager capital/resources and the low-energy interest in such a thematic continuity product in the last 2 years or so.  I only mildly recommend tracking down some of Purple Duck Games online resources, threads and cheapy-cheap products to see how their PF1E-divergent products looks.

I am usually a big fan of Legendary Games PF1 stuff.  I hope they explore integrating stuff from Drop Dead Studios (Spheres), Dreamscarred Press (Psionics) and a few other PF1 luminaries into their system.

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That all said, my group and I play a proprietary 3.P system that integrates most of 3.5, PF1 and select higher-tier 3PP systems for both (we tweak the fixable-imbalanced stuff and homebrew-riff off the crazytown-imbalanced stuff).  Our library of books and PDFs on all this aggregated stuff may be one of the biggest in the world (one of my players is our staggeringly wealthy patron).  So after scouring through our mega-library of related goodies for years, our collective eyeballs are hungry for some new material while simultaneously not invalidating any of the 3.P goodies in our collections. 

Hence my reserved enthusiasm at this point.  Still, the ascent of OSR has been a dream come true for D&D 1e & 2e players.  I hope Legendary's initiative does something similar for the 3.P community.  Everything old that is good .... eventually becomes new & fresh again!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 08:51:56 AM by Craiconn »

Offline Power

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Re: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2020, 05:31:05 PM »
I'm keeping an eye on it.  Having at least one person on staff that wrote handbooks for Pathfinder says something about their mentality going in.  Should be interesting to see what they come up with at the least.  And that bullet point list ticks quite a few house rules boxes off for me.
Aye. Anyone got any links to their stuff? I agree with N. Jolly's comment that feat/item/spell taxes should generally be avoided when possible.

Quote
Their classes over on d20PFSRD show they really prefer the Arcanist casting style.
It's the most convenient casting style, but I'm really not fond of it. Prepared casters have their ability to tailor their kits to contain perfect answers to upcoming challenges at least somewhat impeded by the need for some exactness in their guessing games to prepare ahead when using specialized, circumstantial spells. Spontaneous casters pay for their flexibility by being pressured to avoid overly specialized spells (until optimization tricks come in, but most of those tricks at least have limited daily uses) while also having more daily spells as a compensating factor. The Arcanist can just afford to not give a fuck and prepare a solid variety of those circumstantial spells that seem like they will come in handy that day, without worrying about guessing wrongly as long as they have a generally useful spell for each spell level, and end up stomping all the fights where their counters work by using those counters exactly the amount of times needed. That sounds like a nitpicking complaint until you run into what happens when people go to town with this kind of methodology (which will probably become the new norm if you make everyone cast like an Arcanist) and start devastating all your encounters unless you go out of your way to be unpredictable as a GM maybe (which starts with stunts like "sure this looks like a social encounter at the local castle, but in reality everyone's been replaced with mindless constructs and you have to fight them all now that you discovered the truth" and ends up with dungeons full of totally random shit or an obvious parade of "gotcha!" GM design where every encounter is probably the opposite of what it looks like and the players start wising up to your stunts anyway and can hedge their bets both ways anyhow because Arcanist casting is convenient like that).

I have a feeling this kind of design will end up causing a lot of grief as standard spellcasting playstyles and guides adapt to Arcanist spellcasting. 5E only gets away with it because it largely neutered all spellcasting and even then it's obviously a strong benefit and in PF the biggest reason the Arcanist isn't topping the power charts is because it's got the delayed spell progression of spontaneous casters (and because there are no decent PF Arcanist guides*), but on even levels when played right it's probably the most disgusting caster you can have in your party, unless someone's playing one of those casters with entirely too many spell lists' worth of spell access (ie. Shaman).

*RPGBot's guide (Class - Exploits - Archetypes) just gives you weak advice on exploit selection, skill selection, and traits (along with the one useful bit of advice that wyroot staves are a good idea for Arcanists). Thelemic Noun's "optimization" guide (Discuss) is severely half-assed and incomplete. Dawar's guide (Discuss) actually seemed to be shaping up to something decent, but he never finished it and thus never really properly covered any of it. He did, however, instantly zero in on this playstyle, which it calls the "silver bullet mage", as the Arcanist's strength. Then there are two specialized guides: a blaster caster Arcanist guide (Discuss) and a counterspeller Arcanist (Discuss) guide. The blaster guide is hot garbage and the counterspeller guide is actually surprisingly decent (and self-aware of why counterspelling is bad), with a focus on obtaining immediate action counterspelling (which is viable). But the short of it is that there is only one guide out of 5 that actually looked at the question of how you play an Arcanist and that guide is so incomplete it only mentioned it twice as the Arcanist's strength then never went anywhere.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 10:00:10 AM by Power »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2020, 07:09:13 PM »
If anyone wants to keep tabs on how this is going, they're posting development digests on their Patreon (and most are public).

https://www.patreon.com/LegendaryGames

Offline Nanashi

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Re: Pathfinder 1E is getting a spin-off
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2020, 09:06:10 PM »
They're all public after a week.

Interesting tidbits to be gleamed:
New type of action everyone gets called a "Use Action", covering things faster than a move action, slower than a free action, and too minor for the valuable swift. Most of these are things are things that the speed of wasn't really set in stone, or stuff that was really painful to blow your entire move action on. The one exception is changing grip between hands is a use action instead of free.
Grappling is now sensible.  It's just one combat maneuver that gives increasingly bad conditions as you increase time/margin of success with it
Social HP and maneuvers that target "SMD" are alluded to being a thing.
Maneuvers now fall into three categories, finesse, cunning and power, which determine the attribute they're based on (dex, cha, str).
"Critical Success/Failure" now means beating/failing a check by 10, rather than natural 1/20. These do something more than auto-win/fail. A degree of success/graze style system.
Anyone can power attack.
Damage Reduction and Resistance are no longer weirdly separate things that are identical in almost all aspects
Anyone can attack twice as a standard action, but both attacks take to-hit penalties. Higher BAB reduce the penalty and (at 11+) add more attacks.
Vital strike is free.
Natural Weapons and manufactured weapons no longer work quite so differently.
Firearms are alluded to being something part of the core rules (reload time for them is in one of the action lists)
You can raise a shield as a use action to double its AC bonus.

All of these, except maybe the bit on changing grips (have to see how they handle spellcasting components, since the main thing it impacts is gish characters) seem like good changes or at least neutral.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 09:12:01 PM by Nanashi »